Lithuanian Defence Minister Dovilė Sakalienė says Europe needs to be "armed to the teeth" now that the US is pivoting away from its traditional transatlantic alliance. She explained to Euronews how her family was exiled in Siberia by the Soviet Union. And why Europe needs to defend itself.
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00:00The United States has laid bare to its NATO allies that its primary security focus is
00:12no longer Europe.
00:14It's dashed hopes of Ukraine joining NATO and said that Ukrainian aspirations to return
00:19to the 2014 borders before the Russian invasion are unrealistic.
00:24For the Europe Conversation, I catch up with the Lithuanian defence minister, Dovile Šakuliene,
00:29who says Europe is at the beginning of a very difficult process.
00:33Well, Minister, we now know what the Trump administration says about the fate of Ukraine
00:40on a number of issues, in particular Ukraine's membership of NATO and Ukraine's demand that
00:46it return to the borders of pre-2014.
00:50The US is saying that is unrealistic.
00:52What is your response?
00:54Well, first of all, I think that there were quite a few very significant messages that
01:00were sent today, and some of them are unpleasant, yet true, regarding financing, regarding contribution.
01:12But about what you said about Ukraine, Lithuania thinks that it's not questionable that the
01:19borders are not questionable, that our international agreements, international treaties that say
01:25very clearly that borders are unquestionable, hold true.
01:31Also choice of the nations to join any defence alliances that they deem to be suitable for
01:38them is also unquestionable.
01:41Ukraine does have its own choice to join NATO, but America has said that as a member of NATO,
01:47it won't allow it.
01:48It's going to refuse it.
01:49One of the demands of Vladimir Putin before the full-scale invasion of 2022, the US has
01:56essentially granted that now.
01:58Well, as I said, we believe that it's a choice of every nation to initiate joining of any
02:08alliance that we deem acceptable for them.
02:12And therefore, this is a discussion that needs also to be framed very clearly.
02:19Ukraine has its own volition to express wish to be in any alliance.
02:25Within the alliance, of course, we can have discussions that may be easy or tough, in
02:31this case very tough, yet it does not change the fact that the only sustainable long-term
02:38solution of Ukraine's safety is membership in NATO.
02:44OK, so do you feel that Ukraine is now in a stronger position, having been told in public
02:51that it's unrealistic to expect to be a NATO member and that any troops in Ukraine won't
02:59have NATO security guarantees?
03:01I think we are in the beginning of a very difficult process where we will have to find
03:08the specific ways to generate strength.
03:12What is a good part of the message is that peace through strength was reiterated all
03:19around the room.
03:20What does that mean, though, if you've just weakened Ukraine's position?
03:24As I said, I think we are in the beginning of a difficult conversation.
03:27And one of the elements which is going to be critical, and as I understand also there
03:32is an agreement in the room that it's necessary, is our own capabilities.
03:38Because how can we sustainably help Ukraine if our own defence capabilities are being
03:45developed slower than that of the aggressor?
03:49The size of Ukrainian army and the size of our defence industry, of our own defence capabilities
03:59from, well, I'm not going to go into details in this format, but anyhow, they are not matching
04:08the speed of Russian military industry, of Russian transition from peacetime to wartime
04:14economy, of Russian assembly of troops at quite a threatening speed.
04:20So what do you think should happen now?
04:23First of all, I think that processing of information needs to happen as soon as possible, that
04:31talks are completely irrelevant right now, funds and production is what is really relevant.
04:41Because as I said, if we really want to stand strong by Ukraine, and if we really want to
04:47stand strong in the face of Russia's preparation for the next stages of imperial expansion,
04:53then we need to be armed to our teeth, and probably more.
04:57And that needs to start happening quite soon.
04:59And therefore, in Europe, we need to have a discussion about swift and significant investment
05:06in defence of all NATO borders, not in 2028, but now, by 2026, we need to have instruments
05:14that are capable of ensuring that all the states that are on the borders of NATO are
05:20fully protected.
05:21Because if infringement happens on one inch of the territory of, I don't know, Lithuania,
05:27or Latvia, or Finland, then everybody falls.
05:30So how does that happen when stocks are low now, some would say depleted pretty badly,
05:36production is pretty slow at the moment, and Donald Trump is saying that NATO countries
05:41have to move to 5%.
05:42I mean, Lithuania is doing very well at 4%, but there are countries like Canada, Italy,
05:46Spain, who aren't even hitting 2%.
05:49But we're going to do from 5% to 6% from 2026 to 2030.
05:54And it's not easy.
05:55It's actually very intense for us.
05:58But we understand what is at stake.
06:00And also, the dynamics of GDP growth is quite different in different parts of Europe.
06:07So we need to take what's good and use it.
06:10And one of the things that is good is also our industry, investing in our industry and
06:17making defence industry a very significant element of our economy growth.
06:23Because if we had, in my opinion, the most humiliating situation when all Europe was
06:28trying to find 1 million ammo rounds for Ukraine, all of Europe, that cannot be repeated.
06:35What do you think, though, Vladimir Putin will be thinking about today when he hears
06:39that NATO membership is off the table for Ukraine, despite the June summit in Washington
06:44D.C. saying that there is an indestructible bridge for Ukraine towards NATO membership.
06:49It's irreversible.
06:51Honestly, saying what is happening in Mr. Putin's head, I don't really care because
06:56he is living in an illusion.
06:58And in his opinion, Russia's borders stop nowhere.
07:02I care more about how fast we are going to transform our economies, how fast production
07:08of ammo and weapons and platforms related to our defence is going to develop in Europe,
07:14and how fast we are going to be in a position of actual strength ourselves.
07:19What was the response by defence ministers to that announcement by Pete Hegseth when
07:23he said no NATO membership for Ukraine, going back to 2014 borders is unrealistic?
07:31What was the reaction from defence ministers, including, of course, the Ukrainian defence
07:34minister?
07:35Well, since that was a closed meeting, I would not rather share details, but the general
07:43message was very clear that Europe has contributed very significantly to support Ukraine, and
07:51it is going to continue.
07:55Another message was that Europe and United States need each other, and that Russia and
08:01China are going to coordinate, and therefore Europe and Indo-Pacific are inseparably related,
08:08and therefore we do need to think about certain team action.
08:11As I said, I think that we are opening a very difficult chapter.
08:14You think the Trump administration has made its decision, and it's going to take a very
08:19hard line when it comes to Ukraine?
08:22I think it's going to depend a lot on ability of Europe to pick up the pace.
08:28What about that?
08:29Because we've heard Mark Rutte say that, you know, and Pete Hegseth said it today as well,
08:35that the ministers have to go back to their individual countries and explain to societies
08:39really what is at stake here, and potentially governments are going to have to shave off
08:43when it comes to maybe healthcare, education and other areas.
08:47I mean, where does this money come from, from a European perspective?
08:51What is Lithuania asking, let's say, the EU to do?
08:55When we look back at the pandemic period, we realize that in the face of existential
09:01crisis, Europe is able to think creatively, to generate funds quickly for significant
09:08investments into repair of situation, which is really bad.
09:13And therefore, now, if we got maybe a little additional nudge, to put it diplomatically,
09:20well, probably a kick in the back from our large partner in the NATO alliance, then maybe
09:26we will also be able to think creatively.
09:29And I wouldn't bash against each other healthcare and defense, because certainly we can find
09:36some methods that would allow us to accumulate funds quickly, and then pay off for this investment
09:44in our future.
09:45Well, that's probably what Hegseth said.
09:47It's investment in your own future, and then pay it off in decades.
09:51So you've got common borrowing from the EU?
09:53I think that's one of the options, and one of the options that would be also feasible.
09:58And other options are being discussed by our presidents, by our prime ministers, by our
10:03finance ministers.
10:05Our own Lithuanian finance minister and prime minister are also very active in developing
10:11certain proposals regarding certain joint solutions.
10:14Because as I said, if we all understand that protection of our borders is our joint interest,
10:21we can manage, Europe can manage.
10:24And it's not about, I don't know, just shaving off, as you said, healthcare and education.
10:29It's about using your brains and doing it now.
10:32Just before I let you go, for those countries or societies who maybe don't appreciate exactly
10:37the threat of Russia, particularly for a country like Lithuania, which in living memory has
10:42suffered from the Soviet Union, but also is geographically close to Russia, explain really
10:48what your concerns are about a belligerent Vladimir Putin, who's also been told that
10:54Ukraine won't get membership to NATO.
10:57What are your fears?
10:58Memories, probably.
11:00Because I come from a family that was persecuted by Russians.
11:03My mother was born in Siberia and barely survived.
11:06My family was imprisoned, tortured, murdered, and et cetera.
11:11We know that when Russians come, then your best case scenario is that you are imprisoned
11:17or deported, but most likely you will be raped, tortured, and murdered.
11:22And therefore, that is the threat that is actually looming over Europe right now.
11:27And if we understand that stopping the active front line in Ukraine means that Russia will
11:34immediately accelerate its accumulation of forces that it is gathering for the next imperial
11:41stage expansion, that means that we have a very short time period to get ready.
11:47Well, Dovile Šakelinie, Minister for Defence for Lithuania, thank you very much for joining
11:53us on the Europe Conversation.