Lithuanian Defence Minister Laurynas Kasčiūnas told Euronews' The Europe Conversation that Ukraine's path to NATO membership should not be in doubt.
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00:00Ukrainian President Zelensky held frank conversations with his European counterparts and NATO allies
00:14about the need to get behind his victory plan, but will the West eventually regret not heeding
00:19his calls?
00:20For the Europe Conversation, my catch up with Lithuanian Defence Minister, Laurinas Kačiūnas.
00:25Well, Minister Laurinas Kačiūnas, Minister of Defence for Lithuania, thanks very much
00:31for joining us on this special event.
00:33Great pleasure.
00:34This NATO Defence Ministers' Meeting, we're here in NATO studios for the Europe Conversation
00:39on Euronews.
00:40It has been a momentous week in Brussels.
00:44President Zelensky was at the European Council, he was here briefing you all on his victory
00:48plan.
00:49What was your reaction to it?
00:51Very positive reaction.
00:52It was good what we have planned.
00:55Of course, in the plan there's many important details.
00:58So first moment which I should mention, you know, Lithuania always supported Ukraine's
01:04invitation into the NATO.
01:06Because in our understanding, you cannot send a message to Russia that we have at least
01:12informal veto power on NATO enlargement.
01:15It's the biggest mistake.
01:17Every nation which fights for their independence but also fights for our security deserves,
01:25you know, determination right.
01:27Which organisation, which community to choose for the future.
01:31For their children, for, you know, for the generations.
01:34So that's why invitation is not membership.
01:37But it's a point of no return.
01:40It's irreversibility.
01:42So I think we can do with move.
01:46At least invitation.
01:47I mean, there's more than just hesitancy around this invitation to NATO for Ukraine.
01:54Because what they were given was this, quote, indestructible bridge towards membership but
01:58not an invitation.
01:59The United States is not too keen and countries like Slovakia and Hungary are actively hostile
02:04to that.
02:05Yeah, we know.
02:06But, you know, we need to find a compromise formulation, formula.
02:12But you know, I think it's a question, first of all, for our big allies, you know, because
02:20just warnings about irreversibility, bridges, sorry, is not working.
02:26We need actions.
02:27If we will not make actions, you know, I remember the story before the full-scale war.
02:35In 2017, 2018, after Crimea and after Donbass, we Baltics always said, give more weapons
02:43to Ukraine for deterrence.
02:45If Ukraine will be strong, Russia will be deterred.
02:50And we heard a lot of voices from our friends, look, if you will give the weapons to Ukraine,
02:56it will escalate.
02:59It will provoke.
03:01And we gave not enough for them.
03:03And you see what happened.
03:05Doing nothing is escalatory.
03:07Thinking what you, you know, your support to Ukraine can escalate the situation, it's
03:13a mistake.
03:15And I hope, you know, we will understand our mistakes.
03:18Well, what about the hesitancy then from the United States, from the UK, in relation to
03:23long-range weapons into Russian territory, and Chancellor Schulz of Germany point-blank
03:28ruling it out ever?
03:31I understand there are internal things.
03:33We are democracies.
03:35We have elections.
03:36Russia does not have elections, fake elections.
03:40So authoritarian regimes can be effective in some kind of decision-making.
03:46We are depending on cycles, we are depending on societal approaches, and you know what's
03:51happening in some Western societies, rising for right, talking about peace, not even thinking
04:00what does it mean, peace, under these conditions which now exist.
04:04It will be unjust peace, which will lead to another war in the near future.
04:09So I understand that kind of things.
04:11That's why I can explain why some politicians are not decisive enough.
04:17But we will invest into Ukraine defense when we see now what Ukrainian companies can produce
04:24also long-range strike capabilities.
04:27Very effective drones who can hit long-range targets, and even quite resilient on radio-electronical
04:38warfare.
04:39So we will invest into Ukraine for their production, and this production will solve this red-line
04:45problem because it will be Ukrainian weapons.
04:48Yeah, but we're talking about now, I mean, the victory plan is out a few weeks now, and
04:54we haven't really heard much response from Ukrainian allies.
04:57I mean, Vladimir Zelensky went several weeks ago to the United States.
05:01When you talk about election cycles, are you saying that perhaps after the U.S. election,
05:06because the U.K. doesn't have an election cycle anymore, we know that potentially Germany
05:10might be under domestic pressure, but this is always going to be the case, and Ukraine
05:13needs the weapons now.
05:14So what's the solution?
05:15You know, I still think that, you know, American elections is crucial, not only for Americans
05:22but for the whole world, especially the Western world.
05:26And intentionally, you can feel from all allies that we are looking now to November
05:31and waiting for that.
05:34What will happen?
05:35Because it can change the trajectory.
05:37Maybe it will not change, but it's uncertainty which creates a zone now for passive moves.
05:45We are too passive now.
05:46Because are you afraid that you might incite some disinformation in the United States from
05:52Trump's fans who tend to be much less supportive of Ukraine?
05:56Is that the fear?
05:57And are you fearing then if Trump and Vance do become, go to the White House, that Ukraine
06:03is in trouble?
06:04Lithuania will do what we need to do.
06:06But the United States is, I mean, vital.
06:09Vital.
06:10Absolutely.
06:11Because without the United States, we cannot change the trajectory of war.
06:14So it means the United States should be in the boat, not out of the boat.
06:19So I'm not apocalyptic on Trump.
06:22I mean, we need to work with all administrations, Republican, Democrat, in any case.
06:30But it still creates uncertainty, you know, because we just hear about some kind of peace
06:35talks, negotiations.
06:36We will solve everything fast.
06:38But you know, when you go deeper into details, you lack the evidence and the confident decisions
06:47could assure you what this peace, possible peace will be for granted.
06:54But at the same time, there is major escalation with the news from Ukrainian services that
07:01say that Russia is training or that Korea is training 10,000 soldiers for Ukrainian
07:07territory to fight for Russia, which Zelensky said during the week was a step towards a
07:12new world war.
07:13So, you know, there is obviously urgency to end this war.
07:19You know, I would say on Korean participation, of course, Iran-Korea is a big factor now
07:25supporting Russia.
07:27Of course, Chinese factor is even more important because it lets Russia to overcome technological
07:34sanctions.
07:35It's important for equipment and weapons, which Russia still produce.
07:41If you look at Korean, I would say, you know, the human resources was never for Russia problem.
07:50Much more bigger problem is ammunition and sophisticated and more or less weapons.
07:55So I would say much more bigger problem is Korean weapons against Ukraine, not 10,000
08:02something, you know, people, because, you know, you can find another people if you need,
08:08you know.
08:09So I would say, yes, of course, it's a sign of Korean participation, I mean, of its dictatorship
08:16participation.
08:18But if you look more deeper, much bigger problem is weapons and ammunition, drones from Iran
08:26and so on.
08:27You have said that NATO should shoot down Russian drones that fly into NATO airspace.
08:32A lot of NATO allies would say that's a provocation that could lead to a greater escalation and
08:39sometimes it may not be proportionate.
08:42Just explain why you think that's a good idea.
08:45You know, every NATO country has a right to self-defense.
08:50So one thing is detection of a drone, another is killing the drone.
08:53Soft kill is when you jam it, hard kill when you shoot it.
08:57So if it's in your territory, of course, you need to apply a proportional principle.
09:02If a drone is in the forest going, maybe it's not so risky to let him go down.
09:08But if it goes to your bordering city somewhere, which can harm your civilian lives, you need
09:15to shoot.
09:16It's not escalatory, it's defense.
09:20And we need to be more on active defense.
09:22This is a problem because Russia knows that alliance is defensive alliance.
09:26It will be always so.
09:28But this defensive alliance could be much more active, reacting in some kind of situations.
09:35Because if you will not react, Russia will push this line further and further and we
09:40will have a problem then.
09:42Just final question, because you mentioned that the Baltic countries in particular have
09:46warned the West about this back in 2008, 2014 and so on, and very little was done in the
09:51name of de-escalation.
09:54Do you think in a few years' time we'll look back at this and say, we really messed up,
09:58we should have given them all of the weapons at the start?
10:00And what impact do you think it's going to have?
10:03You know, the simple thing, Ronald Reagan, strength, peace through strength, the formula
10:10which is classic, Russia is not attacking the strong.
10:14When you are strong, Russia is not attacking.
10:17As simple as that.
10:19Russia respects when you are strong.
10:22So that's why if you want to peace with Russia, you need to have military muscles, you need
10:28to be military strong to have a peace.
10:31It's the only thing.
10:32And we do not understand that, hope till now.
10:36Is it frustrating for you then when you're with your NATO allies, in particular Hungary
10:40and Slovakia?
10:41Oh, it's a different story, yes.
10:44Tell us a little bit about that, you know, because we see Robert Fico saying that, defending
10:51Moscow essentially and criticising his own allies who are saying, he's saying essentially
10:55they're warmongers.
10:56Yeah.
10:57Article 5 is quite flexible.
11:01I mean, not all countries should support if our supports you and makes a decision to
11:07go for help, military help.
11:11So it's a good thing.
11:12But yes, we have problems with some countries, which we call allies in their behaviour, in
11:18their mindset, works not as allies.
11:22And it's a problem.
11:23Are they a security threat?
11:24I would not call them security threat.
11:27But, you know, if you ask, do we trust?
11:33It's questionable.
11:34Orban and Fico?
11:35You know, I don't want to go to the personalities, you know, but I think we need to, we need
11:43to be, I would say, more frank with them sometimes.
11:48Okay.
11:49Minister for Defence for Lithuania, Laurynas Kačiūnas.
11:52Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation here at NATO.