噂の！東京マガジン 2025年2月9日 洪水対策が的外れだと疑問の声！？
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00:00This program is brought to you by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Department of Forestry.
00:30This program is brought to you by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Department of Forestry.
01:00This program is brought to you by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Department of Forestry.
01:30This program is brought to you by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Department of Forestry.
02:00This program is brought to you by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Department of Forestry.
02:30There is a resident who is against it.
02:32Why is he against it?
02:34Let's go and find out.
02:36Let's go, let's go, let's go.
02:38This is the scene of a rumor that Ryoichi Yamaguchi is going to see.
02:44This is the Zenfuku-ji River that flows through the complete residential area of Suginami-ku.
02:50It is a relatively short river that connects the Zenfuku-ji Pond and the Kanda River.
02:58However, the residents who live by the river are now against the flood prevention measures that Tokyo is taking.
03:10What is the adjustment area that everyone is against?
03:16This is the Zenfuku-ji River.
03:18Yes.
03:19This is the upstream part.
03:22The Zenfuku-ji River.
03:23The Tokyo Prefectural Government is going to build a drainage system in the basement.
03:29It's going to be a vertical drainage system.
03:31Oh, a vertical drainage system.
03:33The tunnel is going to be 9 meters long.
03:37The tunnel is going to be about 6 kilometers long.
03:41That's quite a long tunnel.
03:42Yes, it is.
03:43It's going to be used for storing rainwater.
03:47It's going to be used for storing rainwater.
03:48Yes, that's the plan.
03:50The Tokyo Prefectural Government is planning to build an adjustment area in the basement...
03:56...to store a large amount of rainwater to prevent the river from flooding during heavy rains.
04:02The Tokyo Prefectural Government is planning to build a tunnel that is 5.8 kilometers long...
04:09...in order to reduce the risk of flooding in the Zenfuku-ji River.
04:16The budget is expected to be 10 billion yen.
04:21It will take 17 years to complete the project.
04:27However, the residents are opposed to the idea...
04:31...that there are measures that should be taken before building an adjustment area.
04:38A large amount of rainwater from the neighboring town.
04:42The residents are questioning the effect of building an adjustment area.
04:48If we could do that, what would be the impact on people's lives?
04:54We could build a facility to store rainwater...
05:01...in the management tower and the water supply entrance.
05:09Here?
05:11This is the adjustment area.
05:13From here to the tower.
05:15At the end of the tower?
05:17Yes.
05:19That's quite a lot of space.
05:24The adjustment area will be built at the end of the tower...
05:31...to store rainwater.
05:35There is a possibility that about 20 adjustment areas will be built in Tokyo.
05:43We're going to build a facility here.
05:47We haven't been formally asked to do anything.
05:50We're just working on the project.
05:53No consultation before you start?
05:56Almost no consultation.
05:58We'll just have a light meeting.
06:01So you just decided on the project and started working on it?
06:06Yes.
06:07Then we were given instructions on how to build the adjustment area.
06:11I was like, I've never seen it. I've never talked about it.
06:14Just like that?
06:15Yes.
06:16In the document given to the residents of Tokyo...
06:19...it states that the adjustment area will be used as a part of their land.
06:29However, it doesn't clearly state that it will be used as a part of their land.
06:33We tried to gather as much information as possible.
06:38It's been about a year now.
06:41But there hasn't been a satisfactory explanation.
06:45After the announcement of the plan...
06:48...there has been an explanation meeting...
06:51...but there has been no formal meeting to hear the residents' opinions.
06:55The residents say that they don't feel the need to hear their opinions.
07:02What they oppose to the plan...
07:05...is not only the possibility of the residents moving in.
07:10This is the park we're looking at now.
07:13Will this be gone?
07:14Yes.
07:16The equipment will be moved.
07:19The equipment will be gone?
07:21From the front of the slide...
07:24...to the front of the hill...
07:27...we're going to build a big soundproof box.
07:31So that the sound doesn't leak.
07:33For construction?
07:34Yes.
07:35The two green parks by the river...
07:38...are said to have been cut down...
07:41...due to the construction of a related facility.
07:45Therefore, the residents who have used the park...
07:49...have voiced their opposition to the plan.
07:54In July of last year...
07:56...more than 16,000 signatures...
07:59...were submitted to the governor...
08:02...to review the plan.
08:05So you're going to build a soundproof wall for construction?
08:09Yes.
08:10So after the construction...
08:13The construction will last about 20 years.
08:1520 years?
08:16Yes.
08:17So whether or not there will be a 10-year construction...
08:20...for the water to overflow...
08:24...do we need that kind of construction?
08:28In the past 70 years...
08:31...there have been three major riots on the Zenpukuchi River.
08:34The last one was 11 years ago.
08:36In the past few years, there has been a lot of heavy rain.
08:39There are measures such as soundproof construction...
08:41...but no major riots have taken place.
08:46And the residents say...
08:48...they are suffering every year...
08:50...not because of the riots on the Zenpukuchi River...
08:52...but because of another water problem.
08:55And that is...
08:57The road is flooded every year.
09:02Really?
09:03Yes.
09:04The water flows under the car.
09:07You have to get the car out of the way.
09:11Underwater riots are...
09:13...when it rains over the drainage system...
09:17...the water overflows from the manholes.
09:21It overflows a lot.
09:23The water overflows from the manholes?
09:25Yes.
09:26It always smells.
09:28The water doesn't flow well.
09:30It's stagnant.
09:32And the other side is a little lower.
09:35So the other side...
09:37...is more affected by the underwater riots.
09:41This is a video taken by the residents...
09:44...in July last year when it rained heavily.
09:47The road is flooded with water...
09:49...overflowing from the manholes.
09:53In the worst-case scenario...
09:55...a part of the car could be submerged.
09:59The manholes...
10:01Not just the manholes...
10:03...but the drainage system overflows too.
10:05It overflows.
10:06When it rains heavily...
10:08...or when there are guerrilla riots...
10:10...we have to take the car somewhere.
10:13We have to go down several times...
10:15...to get water to the bottom of the car.
10:18He said it rained in the car.
10:22Our house is on the other side...
10:24...of the manholes.
10:26He said the other side...
10:28...is where the water accumulates.
10:30He said it was very difficult.
10:33This is one of the causes...
10:36...of the frequent underwater riots.
10:39This is what he said.
10:4260% of the water in Musashino City...
10:46...flows with the sewage...
10:49...when it rains heavily.
10:51It's an interlocking sewage system.
10:54It didn't rain here?
10:55That's right.
10:57The rainwater from Musashino City...
11:00...flows into the sewage system...
11:03...which makes it easier...
11:05...to cause an underwater riot.
11:08The sewage from Musashino City...
11:11...flows out of the manholes.
11:13It's not that bad here.
11:15Even though the water hasn't come yet?
11:17What?
11:19So you're saying...
11:22...that instead of building a tunnel...
11:25...we should fix the sewage system?
11:28Yes, first of all.
11:29First of all.
11:30The residents are seeking measures...
11:33...to prevent an underwater riot...
11:36...in Musashino City.
11:40But why is the rainwater from Musashino City...
11:43...flowing into the sewage system in Suginami Ward?
11:47We asked Mr. Ishida, an environmental consultant...
11:50...in Suginami Ward.
11:53The sewage from Musashino City...
11:56...flows into the sewage system.
11:58Why is that?
11:59The area on the Zenpukuchi River...
12:02...is about one-third of Musashino City.
12:05The rainwater...
12:10...from the sewage system...
12:13...flows into the sewage system.
12:17The area on the Zenpukuchi River...
12:20...is about one-third of Musashino City.
12:23The area on the Zenpukuchi River...
12:26...is about one-third of Musashino City.
12:29It's quite a large area.
12:31The sewage system here...
12:34...was developed in the 1940s.
12:37The sewage system here...
12:40...was developed in the 1940s.
12:43The sewage system here...
12:46...was developed in the 1940s.
12:49That's how it worked.
12:51Normally, in Musashino City...
12:54...the rainwater from a household...
12:57...is sent to a sewage system...
13:00However, when it rains heavily, all the water in the treatment facility is not sent, so some of it is flowed into the nearby river.
13:10At that time, the widest range of rainwater in the city is flowed into the Zenpukuji River through the sewage in Suginami Ward.
13:21As a result, there is a possibility that there is a flood in Suginami Ward.
13:30That is the exit of the sewage from the city of Musashino.
13:36It's pretty big.
13:38It's big.
13:39It's about four and a half meters in size.
13:44Is there such a thing?
13:46It spreads out a little to the side and comes out here.
13:50Does that mean it's coming out?
13:51When it's bad, sewage mixed with water flows from there.
13:57This is what the sewage looks like when it rains heavily.
14:05A large amount of water is flowing into the Zenpukuji River from the sewage sewage port connected to the city of Musashino.
14:13However, when there is a lot of rainwater, it seems that it is overflowing from the burn hole on the way to the Zenpukuji River and the sewage treatment facility.
14:27There is a device that separates the sewage and the sewage.
14:32The design there is bad, and the pipe below it is thin, so I think it's overflowing from there.
14:40Sewage is a device that separates the flow of water in the sewage, but there is a possibility that it is not functioning well.
14:50In the first place, the sewage itself was built about 50 years ago, so Mr. Ishida pointed out that it may not have the ability to process the sewage for the past few years.
15:04So, if the planned underground adjustment site can be done, will the flood disruption be solved?
15:13If you imagine what would happen if you made an underground adjustment site, one thing is that the flood disruption here will occur as a precedent.
15:24Even if you make a big tunnel?
15:27Even if you make it, it's because the sewage system hasn't changed.
15:31Then what are you making it for?
15:34Mr. Ishida says that the underground adjustment site is to prevent the flood disruption of the Zenpukuji River, and that the flood disruption will not be solved.
15:45What is necessary is the improvement of the sewage system that the residents are looking for.
15:51We don't oppose the flood disruption measures, but we want the plan to be acceptable.
16:04We want the government to think about the lives of the residents, but we feel that we rely only on the business.
16:17It's been raining a lot lately, so I've heard a lot about flood disruptions.
16:24I've had a flood disruption where I had to use up to my waist.
16:29How about flood disruptions?
16:31Flood disruptions mean that the storage space under the stairs has been flooded because it's a two-story house.
16:38Is that a flood disruption?
16:41Isn't it a flood disruption?
16:42Amamori?
16:44It's Amamori.
16:46I was stupid to ask.
16:48It's a flood disruption.
16:50It's not from above, it's from below.
16:52It's from below.
16:53It's a river.
16:54I don't have it.
16:55You don't have it?
16:56Thank you very much.
16:57Yes.
16:58Well, in preparation for that, digging a big underground tunnel seems to be effective.
17:05That's right.
17:06Well, it actually exists, doesn't it?
17:08It's also under the well.
17:09Yes, it is.
17:10It was actually used a lot during the heavy rain.
17:12It was used a lot.
17:13It was used a lot.
17:14There is also a story that the water level has decreased considerably.
17:17However, it is said that it is not effective because the water is overflowing.
17:22It is said that it is a different solution from the tunnel where floods and disruptions occur.
17:29I see.
17:30Does that mean that you don't take flood disruptions seriously?
17:34No, I don't think so.
17:36I don't think so.
17:37However, if you look at it from the perspective of the prefecture, it would be best to create an underground tunnel and adjust the land to prevent the flood disruptions of the Zenbukuchi River.
17:46The flood disruptions of the Zenbukuchi River were covered in this program before, right?
17:50It was 20 years ago.
17:51It was 20 years ago.
17:52Yes.
17:53At that time, the Zenbukuchi River was certainly flooded, and everyone was in trouble.
17:59However, in recent years, we have been able to adjust the land to prevent the flood disruptions of the Zenbukuchi River.
18:05However, in recent years, we have been able to adjust the land to prevent the flood disruptions of the Zenbukuchi River.
18:08However, in recent years, we have been able to adjust the land to prevent the flood disruptions of the Zenbukuchi River.
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22:32All right.
22:39The rain in Jumbun Valley caused the flood.
22:44What do the residents of Musashino think about this?
22:52Hello, I'm Tokyo Magazine from BSTV.
22:57As a resident of Musashino,
23:00what do you think about the fact that people from your area
23:04are moving towards the Suginami and causing damage?
23:11I feel sorry for the residents of Musashino
23:16for causing so much damage to other areas.
23:21It's difficult to clean the area without a river.
23:25What can we do to make it better?
23:30We are working very hard.
23:34We have water-repellent mats.
23:39We have them everywhere.
23:42We also have roads with water-repellent mats.
23:46We also have roads with water-repellent mats.
23:50The residents of Musashino are taking measures against rainwater.
23:55One of the measures is taking place in this park.
24:01What kind of facility is this?
24:03This is a management tower for the water-repellent mats.
24:07If you go inside,
24:10you can see the 35-meter-deep water-repellent mats.
24:18So this is a facility to prevent rainwater from entering the Suginami.
24:22Yes, that's right.
24:24There is a facility in the park to store the rainwater built by Musashino.
24:30It can store up to 8,500 cubic meters of water.
24:35However, this is not the only facility to prevent rainwater.
24:40This is an extreme situation.
24:42Do we have to build more facilities to prevent rainwater from entering the school grounds?
24:51I think most of the schools in the city are already built.
24:56There are many schools in the city.
24:58Not only the schools in Shinjuku,
25:02but also the new schools in the houses are being built.
25:08I think the city is making a lot of effort to make them free of charge.
25:13How does the city of Musashino see the situation in the Suginami where rainwater is being detected?
25:22When I applied for an interview, there was an answer in the document.
25:27In order to reduce the burden on the local communities,
25:33the city of Musashino has set up a water-repellent facility in the school grounds.
25:40The city of Musashino has set up a water-repellent facility in the school grounds.
25:47We have also set up a water-repellent facility in the school grounds.
25:51We have also set up a water-repellent facility in the school grounds.
26:00We will continue to reduce the amount of rainwater that flows into the sewerage pipe,
26:05and we will continue to reduce the burden on the local communities.
26:12The city of Musashino has already set up a water-repellent facility
26:16in the school grounds of 17 schools in the city.
26:21In the future, the city of Musashino will set up a water-repellent facility in the garden of the house,
26:26and will issue a subsidy for the installation of a water-repellent facility.
26:32What measures do the citizens who know that the city of Musashino is in such a position want to take?
26:41What do you want the city of Musashino to do in the future?
26:45The city of Tokyo.
26:46The city of Tokyo?
26:48What do you want the city of Tokyo to do?
26:50The city of Tokyo and the city of Musashino should cooperate
26:53to create a water-repellent facility in the school grounds.
27:02I think we need to create a water-repellent system that is suitable for the future.
27:10I think we need to re-plan all the local communities in Tokyo.
27:19I don't think this is an answer from a normal citizen.
27:23Even so, I don't want to hear that.
27:26I've been doing this for 35 years, but I've never had such a difficult interview.
27:33I'm sorry to make you say that.
27:38And the city of Musashino is doing a lot of things.
27:42There is a water-repellent facility in the school grounds.
27:47But it's still not enough.
27:50That's right.
27:52There are still many places where there is rain.
27:55Yes, there are.
27:56There are more damage than expected.
27:58I asked the expert, Mr. Ishida.
28:01Is there a measure that can be implemented?
28:03There are still schools in Musashino.
28:06If you create a water-repellent facility in the school grounds,
28:10the stadium, or the park,
28:12there is a high possibility that more than 100,000 tons of water will be stored.
28:15The 100,000 tons of water may be suitable for the underground adjustment area planned by the government.
28:20Is that so?
28:21It may be possible.
28:23It may be faster to make it.
28:25It may be faster.
28:26I don't think it will take 17 years.
28:28In addition, it is said that the construction of a water-repellent facility in Musashino City is also effective.
28:34The current drainage system and the water-repellent system are integrated.
28:39They are separated from the water-repellent system.
28:42If you make a water-repellent facility in the underground area,
28:48it will be a big job, of course,
28:50but there is a possibility that it will improve the internal water disturbance.
28:54I see.
28:55It seems to be relatively easy to implement.
28:57That's right.
28:58I think so.
28:59There are a lot of universities in Musashino.
29:01Yes, there are.
29:02For example, there is a school system.
29:03So, it is one of the ways to cooperate with the school grounds and create a water-repellent facility in the underground area.
29:10The dynamic and the existence of Musashino City in Tokyo
29:15have become a very big theme.
29:19That's right.
29:20In common.
29:21It is a joint effort between the construction bureau and the water-repellent bureau,
29:26so it is difficult if it is not integrated.
29:30There seems to be a way to solve it.
29:34I think so.
29:35I think so.
29:36Well, certainly, the residents are saying that they want Tokyo to come out,
29:41but what do they think?
29:44I'm sorry, but I'll send it after this.
30:00Many residents are raising questions about the adjustment plan in Suginami-ku.
30:05We reported on how the residents in Tokyo are accepting it.
30:09The residents are complaining that the water-repellent problem, which is the biggest problem in the underground adjustment plan in Tokyo, will not be solved.
30:19They feel dissatisfied with the way they are proceeding.
30:23No matter what it is, it's not that they are opposed to it,
30:26but if they explain it properly,
30:29they will be able to explain it in their own way.
30:35There is an ABC plan, and each of these ABC plans has its own advantages and disadvantages,
30:40and in the end, this is what happened.
30:42I'm sorry, but can you consider my situation today?
30:44It would be nice if there was a way to get out of it.
30:46There is no such thing at all.
30:49They are not taking any steps.
30:51I feel like I'm being tempted.
30:54We reported on how the residents are responding to these questions,
30:59and we received an answer in a letter.
31:02However, after that, there was a request from Tokyo to rewrite the letter and answer it.
31:11So, we will introduce Tokyo's answer in the studio after this.
31:18Tokyo took the initiative with the plan of Musashino City, Suginami City, and the whole of Tokyo,
31:25and we have to make a plan of how to make Suginami City and Musashino City,
31:31and we have to make a plan of how to make Suginami City and Musashino City,
31:35but we don't do that.
31:36We don't do that.
31:37We don't do that.
31:38We only take it as if we are doing our best.
31:44Yes, I think that's how it is.
31:47That's true.
31:49We will take it as if we are doing our best.
31:51Yes, I think that's how it is.
31:52So, we will take it as if we are doing our best.
31:56Yes, we will take it as if we are doing our best.
31:57It's rare.
31:58I'm afraid that you asked too many questions,
32:03but we received the letter just a while ago.
32:06Oh!
32:07I'm afraid that you asked too many questions,
32:08I was wondering how it would turn out, but here it is, in three pages.
32:13I can't read all of it, so I'll read it in the form of an excerpt.
32:18Well, what everyone wants to know the most is whether or not the flood disruption will be reduced by the adjustment of the water level.
32:25In response to this question, the management of the riverbeds and the management of the adjustment of the water level has steadily improved the ability to flow in the river,
32:37and the management of the waterway has gradually increased the flow rate from the waterway in accordance with the ability to flow,
32:45and the riverbeds and waterways have become integrated to reduce flood damage.
32:50What?
32:52It is believed that the adjustment of the water level will have an effect on the reduction of flood damage as well as preventing flood damage from the river by temporarily draining the flood water.
33:04So, the management of the riverbeds and the management of the waterway are working on their own, right?
33:09I think it would be better to say that they are working together, but they are working on their own.
33:16It's hard to understand at a glance, right?
33:18Mr. Morimoto, if you don't mind, please read it.
33:20I couldn't understand it well.
33:23In the end, he said that he would improve the internal water reflux, but it is not written why it can be improved.
33:30Then let's read the next one first.
33:33Mr. Morimoto, you are reading it very seriously.
33:35If there is a plan or policy to improve the water treatment of Musashino City, which will flow into the Zenbuku River in the future, please let me know.
33:42Regarding the water treatment in Musashino City, the city of Musashino, which is a sewerage management company, is going to support it.
33:49However, in order to improve the water quality and safety of the entire area, the management of the riverbeds, the internal water reflux of the sewerage system, and the management of the water flow and drainage system are being worked on by related companies.
34:02I got the answer that the related companies are working together.
34:07This is what Mr. Morimoto said earlier.
34:10The river management company is probably the Tokyo Bureau of Construction.
34:15That's right.
34:16That's right.
34:17So, there is a tunnel to make sure that the sewage treatment is properly carried out.
34:23The sewerage management company is the Sewerage Management Company.
34:28So, the sewerage management company will gradually increase the amount of sewage from the sewer according to its ability to flow.
34:37That's what I think.
34:38I see.
34:39So, we're thinking about it separately.
34:41Let's think together.
34:43It's a split.
34:45It's a clear split answer.
34:49It's one problem, so it's right for each of us to cooperate.
34:53From my point of view, it's better to do it at the same time.
34:57I simply think so.
34:59But that's not the case.
35:01If each of us cooperates, it may not be so difficult.
35:05It may be less difficult in a shorter period of time.
35:07It may be possible to live without spending money.
35:09But that's why it's a split.
35:12There is Mr. Musashino in Tokyo, and there is Mr. Suginami.
35:15So, ordinary residents of Mr. Musashino will apologize in that way.
35:19I'm really sorry.
35:21I'm really sorry.
35:24Thank you for your cooperation.
35:26You all know it very well.
35:28Yes, we do.
35:30I was surprised.
35:31You all know the current situation, and we're doing this much.
35:35But Mr. Musashino is at his limit, isn't he?
35:37That's right.
35:38After that, we will cooperate with the Tokyo government.
35:42Mr. Suginami, Mr. Musashino, and the Tokyo government.
35:46If the Tokyo government takes the initiative, it will be exactly the same as what Mr. Suginami said.
35:51That's right.
35:52This is the voice of Mr. Koike Tsuruno.
35:55That's right.
35:56If Mr. Koike Tsuruno says, let's do it together, it will work.
35:59I wonder if Mr. Koike Tsuruno is watching this program.
36:01I want him to watch it.
36:02I want him to watch it.
36:04If he can't watch it at this time, we're doing it on TVer.
36:08Please watch it.
36:12I was wondering why the Tokyo government didn't take any action.
36:15The residents are in trouble.
36:17Why don't you do what you can do right now?
36:20Why don't you take any action?
36:22I was really wondering.
36:24That's all for now.