In this edition, we take a look at the mood in Germany ahead of crucial federal elections and hear how the EU does not want to leave space to 'aggressive authoritarians'.
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00:00Hello there and welcome to Brussels My Love, your news's weekly chat show that takes a
00:18look at the good and bad of EU policy making. I'm Maeve McMahon, thanks for tuning in. Coming
00:24up this week, all eyes on Germany. Thousands poured onto the streets of Berlin last weekend
00:32to protest against a new anti-immigration motion that was passed thanks to the support
00:36from the far-right Alternative für Deutschland. With elections coming up on the 23rd of February,
00:42the EU's biggest member state looks set to break the traditional firewall that has kept
00:46extremist parties out of decision making. We take a look at this political pickle for
00:52the conservative front-runner Friedrich Merz and hear what else is at stake in these important
00:57elections. And not even one month in power and US President Donald Trump is sending jitters
01:03around the continent. Grabbing headlines lately is Greenland, the picturesque Danish island
01:08of just over 50,000 people. Reacting to President Trump's calls to make it American, the French
01:14have said they will put up a fight. They're even willing to send in European troops to
01:18protect it. We take a look at the size of the threat and check how Brussels should respond.
01:24A warm welcome to our guests this weekend. Peter Heffele, Policy Director at the Wilfrid
01:28Martin Centre, a think tank affiliated with the European People's Party. Raquel Garcia,
01:34Armida van der Waal, Liberal MEP from the Netherlands. And Ian Lesser, that's the Director
01:39of the Brussels branch of the American Think Tank, the German Marshall Fund. Lovely to
01:43see you all. Thank you for joining us. But before we bring in your views, let's just
01:47hear about the predicament facing the leader of the German Christian Democrats. That's
01:51the politician hoping to be the next Chancellor of Germany. Friedrich Merz reportedly expected
01:59some public opposition, but not this. Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets
02:08across Germany to protest against Merz. At least 160,000 in Berlin alone. Political observers
02:20are talking about a political gamble that backfired spectacularly. Merz had presented
02:25the Bundestag with proposals for tougher migration policies. This happened after a man from Afghanistan
02:34attacked a group of children with a knife, killing a two-year-old boy and a man. Friedrich
02:43Merz's non-binding resolution got a majority with the help of the far-right AFD party,
02:49causing a monumental uproar in Germany's political establishment. Did Merz undermine
02:58the firewall that keeps the extreme right from power? Was he jumping on a populist train
03:03to win an election? Did he strengthen the AFD? The answers on February 23rd, when Germany
03:12goes to the polls. So the answer's at the end of February, but in the meantime, of course,
03:20we can speculate. I mean, Friedrich Merz, he had promised Peter not to do business with
03:25the far-right. Has he lost his credibility now by agreeing on this motion? Well, I think
03:29in my opinion, Friedrich Merz made the right decision. We have an impasse in German politics
03:33for too long on certain issues, so sooner or later you have to break through these issues.
03:39And he made proposals to the other parties. Apparently, they didn't agree. I think the
03:42differences had not been as big. We unfortunately are in campaign mode. That doesn't help in
03:47many issues. But we cannot no longer watch and don't act. That's what people now expect
03:54from us. Because mainstream parties, though, have for a long time have had this so-called
03:58firewall around the AFD, meaning parties would not govern or go into coalition with the far-right.
04:03And it also meant that mainstream parties wouldn't even introduce legislation that could
04:07only be passed with the far-right support. What's your view, Raquel? Because, of course,
04:10your party is affiliated with the Liberals, the AFD, who do agree with Friedrich Merz
04:15on many of his policies. Since this U-turn, has he gone down in your estimations? Well,
04:19we're not affiliated with the AFD in any possible way. But the FTP? The FTP. They participated
04:26in this vote partly, and they supported part of the proposals. My own party, D66, and my
04:32fraction, Renew Europe and the European Parliament, is very clear about this. We don't deal or
04:38do dealings with extreme right, especially not taking part in governments with extreme
04:43right parties. And I think the most important message to voters out there, and also seeing
04:47the reaction of the German people, is when we tried to take on extreme right narratives,
04:55the only ones who win are extreme right parties. It helps no one else. And just, Ian Lesser,
05:02from a Brussels perspective, did Friedrich Merz, in your view, and he's a banker turned
05:06politician, by the way, did he jump on the populist bandwagon here? How has he been viewed
05:09here from Brussels? No, look, I think it really asks two questions. I mean, one is about political
05:16tactics and whether this is something sound in the near term, apparently not, or even
05:22in the long term, where it will be tested and we will see. But there's also the question
05:26of the extent to which more centrist parties take on these issues that are really central
05:32to the right, to the hard right. And that is happening, whether they actually go into
05:37formal parliamentary agreements, coalitions. It may, in the end, be more about the issues
05:45than it is about whether you deal with these parties or not. But I would agree. I mean,
05:49it is opening a very difficult issue that is likely to be repeated elsewhere.
05:53And as we've seen it in other countries, indeed, it's already happening. Nonetheless, I can
05:59only repeat, there is an issue to be acted on. If you look into polls, migration matters
06:04dramatically, and we have to find answers from a centrist perspective. We cannot longer
06:08leave these answers to one side of the spectrum.
06:10Right. Yeah, sorry. But what happens is what we have seen in the Netherlands, where we
06:15have a four-party coalition with the extreme right, with very big plans and ambitious plans
06:21to curb migration. They're doing nothing. They don't get anything through. And the measures
06:27that they take are completely ineffective and purely a display of show politics. So
06:35I do think that we have to tell the honest story to voters. If you want solutions to
06:39migration, they will come through the middle and not through the extremes.
06:43I fully agree. But they didn't act accordingly, whether there had been chances. So this is
06:48an obligation, a responsibility for the centrist parties. And that's what we have to aim after
06:52the elections.
06:53Well, one lady who's very pleased with what Friedrich Merz has done is the head of the
06:58AFD, Alice Weidel. She's second place, by the way, in the polls. And she took to X to
07:02say the firewall has fallen. This is very good news for the country.
07:07Well, I leave this to Mrs. Weidel. I think it has not fallen. But if you look a bit further
07:12after the 24th of February, coalition building will be extremely difficult for the moment.
07:18There's only one option. That is a kind of grand coalition. And I'm not very happy about
07:24that perspective, because this is part of this impasse and people want change and they
07:28probably won't get it. So I'm very concerned about that.
07:32People want change. Just on that point, we wanted to hear from Liv Schraud, our correspondent
07:36in Berlin, to see what the political implications of this incident were and also what the atmosphere
07:42in the Berlin capital is like just a few weeks before the elections. Take a listen.
07:46So the mood in Berlin is understandably very taut, with the snap election taking place
07:50in just two weeks. These elections are arguably Germany's most important since 1933, where
07:56the country will decide if it sways towards the right, like many other European countries,
08:01or if things stay largely the same.
08:04As we saw from the Insta poll this week, Merz's political gamble didn't seem to have affected
08:09voters too much, with support for CDU staying at 30%. However, both the Greens and Die Linke
08:16parties reported record numbers of new member applications following those demos that took
08:21place last weekend that attracted hundreds of thousands of people across the country.
08:27That's Liv Schraud there, our correspondent in Berlin, with that update. So it seems Merz
08:31is stable for now, but of course the challenge will be for him to form a government, Ian,
08:34after these elections.
08:35Absolutely. And you know, look, forgive me as an American sitting here in Brussels, you
08:40know, this has become a transatlantic issue in a way. I mean, there are key personalities
08:45in the United States, as we know, weighing in on this election and supporting AFD. And
08:50you know, this is...
08:51Elon Musk.
08:52Elon Musk.
08:53You can mention the name.
08:54You can mention the name. You know, so there is partly about ideology. It's partly about,
08:59you know, setting examples. It's partly about, you know, simply key personalities are out
09:05there in the media and have a certain traction and can make things happen. And so a lot of
09:10this is going to be tested. We will see in the German result whether these tactics succeed
09:17or whether they don't. But it will be very meaningful.
09:20And it's a very meaningful vote. I mean, in here in Brussels, of course, everyone is glued
09:24to those elections. But just back to the voters, Peter, you're from Germany. You said immigration
09:27is one topic, economy, I'm sure, the other.
09:30Absolutely. This rapid changes in our structural structure is what Matt, of course, has a high
09:36credential because he has this business background. That's where we are measured against. Definitely.
09:41And I hope more in European initiatives. This was something which I complained very much
09:46over the last years, that there have been no real initiatives from Berlin and having
09:50the other partners like France in a weak position.
09:53Well, indeed, Germany has been missing. Germany and France, the kind of Franco-German alliance
09:57has been very much missing in the last couple of years.
10:00There's a bit of a power vacuum in Europe at this moment. And that is concerning. So
10:05I look with a lot of attention and concern to the developments in Germany, but also the
10:11developments in France. But I would like to circle back to the issue of providing voters
10:15and citizens with solutions, and especially when it comes to European solutions.
10:20Look at the migration pact. We need to implement that. But we already see that the measures
10:24that we have taken in recent years have led to the first decrease in illegal migration
10:31in years. We saw that in the numbers from last year. So the things that we are doing
10:35at European level with support from member states are already working. Yes, there are
10:40some fronts where we do need to improve. One of them is the return of people who did not
10:46have rights to asylum for illegal migrants. And that's something we're working on.
10:51So I also want to give a message of calm, to say, yes, we have problems. We are addressing
10:58them at European level. And what does not help is to open the door to those who want
11:04to destroy those fundaments of European action.
11:07And what are your solutions and Friedrich Meis's solutions for this?
11:09Well, these are nothing revolutionary. These are mostly things which are already in place,
11:14which has to be reinforced to a large extent. It's not so much about creating new laws.
11:19There are a lot of issues indeed. And there's a problem in federal states, of course, the
11:22coordination between different levels. But in terms of content, there's a large consensus
11:27among the centrist parties.
11:29Yes, but I would honestly, I really fundamentally disagree with that because denying an asylum
11:35application at the border is very likely against the rules, legislations and international
11:42agreements that we have made.
11:43Ian, you want to weigh in there?
11:44Well, I was just going to say, you see this being tested in Italy, where, you know, obviously
11:49Prime Minister Moloney is really, you know, had made a key issue of this and trying to
11:54manage the migration problem, in essence, from Albania, you know, and exporting the
11:59problem and exporting the control. It's being challenged in the courts, despite her political
12:04skill. And she has a lot of political skill, actually. Actually, she's an interesting example
12:08of how she can be very, very forward leaning on an issue like this, which is really sort
12:14of red meat to the constituency. And on the other hand, on other issues can seem quite
12:20moderate.
12:21And also, at the end of the day, it's about what Germans want, what voters want, what
12:24people want. And I've seen a number of newspapers in Germany and academic institutions, they've
12:29started this new campaign. Have you seen it called Zusammenland? Vielfalt macht uns stark.
12:34Diversity makes us strong. So over 500 companies, foundations, associations and NGOs, they're
12:39worried about the image of Germany. And of course, this plan that Germany could be working
12:44with right wing extremists.
12:45Well, my point is less the migration part, it's the integration part. And there's a lot
12:50of things to be done. This has totally underestimated. And yes, we need this diversity, this immigration,
12:55a more controlled one, more to the needs of our society and economy, definitely. But these
13:01are the issues we have to work upon. And this is an issue not just for the national level,
13:05this is very much on the local level, already ready and it makes a difference.
13:09It's almost like the most unsolvable issue. Now, we've been twirling around in circles
13:13on this issue, Raquel, for many, many years, and it feels like it's the hardest one to
13:17really find consensus on.
13:19I think that we have consensus. I think that we have a very good asylum and migration pact
13:25reached after years of negotiations at EU level, which is starting to show the first
13:31positive results. And it has not even been fully or even partly implemented yet. But
13:36I do think that we also have to, again, going back to my point of telling the honest story
13:42that some things will take time and on some things we do have to accelerate a bit. Like
13:46I said, I agree that looking at the issues with migrants who need to be returned to the
13:52lands of origin is something that we all should be concerned about.
13:56And just another issue regarding mainstream politicians. It's no secret that far-right
14:01parties are managing to seduce voters. They're getting more and more popular all across.
14:06How are mainstream parties addressing this? Like we saw this week, for example, the socialists,
14:10they had a retreat here in Valonia, scratching their heads, really, to try and find a way
14:15to become relevant again.
14:16I think it's very, very tough. I mean, I would fully agree that, you know, having a more
14:20objective, you know, sort of policy and legally based approach to this issue would be great.
14:27But in fact, it's an extremely emotional issue for people. And I mean, there is some history
14:32to show that when centrist parties try to take on these issues that are very strong
14:37on the hard right, they don't do it as well. And they don't have the same political traction
14:41sometimes of doing it. So there's a certain risk. But parties are being driven in this
14:46direction. People are demanding it. There are others, employers and others may have
14:50different perspectives.
14:51And the EPP, of course, the European People's Party, looking to use EU funding as well to
14:56build fences across Europe. Is this a policy you support?
15:00Well, my biggest concern, frankly speaking, is not the rise of the right. It's the rise
15:05of the non-voters. We see a traumatic loss in trust in our system. And that is where
15:11we have to work upon. These are the largest parties.
15:13Especially among young people.
15:14In particular.
15:15But interestingly, this week we saw Frans Timmermans in town, Dutch politician, of course,
15:19the creator or the architect, if you like, of the European Green Deal, the former commissioner
15:24in charge of climate. He was proposing something interesting, that the socialists and the Greens
15:29should join.
15:30Yes, that's something that they have been experimenting with in the Netherlands for
15:33a couple of years now. Not entirely successful on some fronts. On some other fronts, it does
15:39show that that cooperation can help.
15:41But I think that regardless of whether we have one party, three parties or four parties,
15:46what I already said, it's about also offering realistic solutions to the problems of people.
15:52And I also think that the progressive side of the political spectrum has to be also very
15:56clear in acknowledging what the problems are, but also not hesitating to say what other
16:03problems are created when we leave the spectrum to the extremes and going back to the economy.
16:09European citizens are concerned about the economy. They are concerned about the future.
16:13And they want solutions.
16:14And they want solutions. But what do we get now? A possible trade wars, inflicted by the
16:21shining lights of the extreme right and their model child, which is Donald Trump. Do Europeans
16:28want that?
16:29Maybe Ian Lesser can weigh in there. Of course, it's something you've been following very
16:32closely at the German Marshall Fund.
16:34Yeah. Well, you know, look, we all have our views about it. My own personal view is it's
16:37very difficult to know what the end objective is here. I think, you know, President Trump
16:42himself is a political personality. He's kind of his own thing. He's very generous. And
16:49yes, there are certain ideological attachments to the right wing agenda. But he's now, you
16:53know, don't look to that first experience with him, I think. This administration is
16:58likely to be very different than the first and much more ideological, much more effective
17:04in some ways.
17:05He's now got a cadre of people who take these issues like immigration and other things that
17:09are really lightning rods for the hard right. And they project them into his administration
17:16using executive orders and other things. Very different. And so, yes, I mean, I think it's
17:22an interesting question. Not just interesting, it'll be a very consequential question, the
17:25extent to which European politics begins to reflect more and more of this and vice
17:30versa.
17:31And meanwhile, the face of the European Parliament has changed as well a lot since the elections
17:35last spring. A lot more extremists or more right wing voices in there, which will make
17:41consensus building much more difficult.
17:43Well, it remains this kind of great coalition, if we include ECR, the Italian in particular.
17:49There's still a consensus on many issues. I'm not as pessimistic. There's a stronghold
17:53in the middle hold, indeed. And we are very curious, indeed, about you have much more
17:58experience.
17:59You have more experience. Tell us how it's changed in your view.
18:02Well, we do see that the discourse gets extremer and harsher. I have been debating with colleagues
18:11from also partly ECR, the group of Maloney, and debating with colleagues from extreme
18:20right where I have had to hear things like there is a conspiracy to replace the white
18:25population of Europe with migrants. I don't think that's acceptable. And I do think that
18:30the political middle, including the colleagues of the European People's Party, should stand
18:34up every time and say that's not language that we should be allowing in this chamber.
18:40Which leads me to a point I wanted to mention in the German debate as well. It's the use
18:43of language, of course. We as politicians and media very much central to this. I think
18:48we should also go a bit further down there, the historical references to 1932 or something.
18:54I think this is totally nonsense, ridiculous. I think if you go to that extent, you hardly
19:00go back. And this is also destroying the public discourse space. That's what I'm very much
19:05concerned that we are not longer able to talk to each other, destroying the very fundamental
19:10issues.
19:11But Peter, maybe because I've heard, again, references to population replacement, which
19:16has roots in fascist Europe, in Nazi Germany. Do you feel that that's something that we
19:22should tolerate?
19:23No, there are clear limits, definitely. But as you pointed out, there are pragmatic solutions.
19:29And we have to take care about what language we are using. Otherwise, we divide the society
19:34and there's no way to come together any longer.
19:36And the message you send, of course, to people then is very, very negative. But meanwhile,
19:40as the Germans are getting ready to vote, the Belgians have just got a brand new government.
19:45Less than 234 days after the June elections, the so-called Arizona government has been
19:50endorsed. The five-party coalition makes up of the right-wing nationalists, N-VA, the
19:55Liberal Democrats, the centre-right, CDV, and the centrists and the socialists as well.
20:00And the new prime minister is Bart de Wever. He is the former mayor of Antwerp, known a
20:04couple of years ago for being the politician who wanted to split Belgium.
20:08Have you been following the news here in Belgium? Could we see kind of a Flanders-first vibe
20:12in this government?
20:13I, you know, I, I, yeah, well, look, I mean, what does it tell us? I mean, first of all,
20:18it's part of the shift to the right in Europe generally. I mean, this is, this is a different
20:22kind of mix than you would normally, but it is a mix and it's a very consequential mix
20:26and it's very Belgian in that sense. I don't frankly see Belgium going in the direction,
20:32it's not going to split apart. You could see more of a weight for Flanders in various aspects,
20:38but that was already there. I mean, in fact, there were those who argued that, you know,
20:42Bart de Wever, as mayor of Antwerp, was in a more powerful position than as the prime
20:45minister of Belgium.
20:46Yeah, because we alluded to all the parties that will have to govern with him. Of course,
20:51he'll be sitting with the ECR, so with Giorgio Meloni, the conservative reformist at the
20:55council, so we'll see a little change there. But he's actually more aligned probably with
20:58your party on most of his principles.
21:00Well, I'm very delighted. If I looked into the first announcements, they touch topics
21:06which are very important. The social reform, the social system in Belgium is for decades
21:11something to be overhauled.
21:12You're delighted, but some in Brussels are not. We've seen a couple of protesters this
21:16week. The trade union is a little bit worried about that new government. But for more information
21:19on that, you can take a look at our website, euronews.com, because with that conclusion,
21:24we can bring this conversation to a close. Thank you so much to our panellists for being
21:28with us. And stay with us here on Euronews, because after a short break, we'll be heading
21:33to Greenland to see why. It's pretty much all over our headlines over the last couple
21:38of weeks since President Donald Trump is back in the White House. See you soon.
21:50Welcome back to Brussels, my love, our weekly politics show with me Maeve McMahon, where
21:55we take a look back at the news of the week. And one story we wanted to zoom in brings
22:00us to Nuuk in Greenland, where the local parliament got back to work this week after their winter
22:05break. It was their first meeting since President Trump was sworn in, saying he wanted to buy
22:09or take the island of 56,000 people. President Trump says controlling Greenland is essential
22:15to US national and economic security. He also wants perhaps its national resources from
22:20rare earth minerals to iron. Now, Greenland is, of course, tied to Denmark politically
22:25and culturally, and Denmark has already warned the US Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, that
22:29Greenland is not for sale. So, Ine Lesser, we'll bring you in here first. What do you
22:33make of this debate on Greenland?
22:35Well, you know, it's odd at many levels, but one of them, of course, is that the United
22:39States already dominates the security of Greenland. We have a substantial base there. It could
22:44easily be expanded. We have economic activity there. It could easily be expanded. It's not
22:49really about Greenland. It's about China. It's about Russia. And it's about a certain
22:53mythology about opening up the high north and all sorts of other things. But very, very,
22:57very, very odd turn in American policy.
23:00What about the parliament? Have you been reacting there?
23:03We have been reacting, for sure, and that's also a concern. I think that we spend the
23:09last few weeks more time reacting to Trump's shenanigans, which we have to take very seriously,
23:14by the way. I will come back to that in a minute, than solving our own problems. But
23:20this, of course, is a European problem, because for the time being, Greenland will be part
23:25of the Danish domain, and it's NATO territory. And it is extremely concerning that Trump
23:32is out to completely undermine the international order and NATO order, and that should be top
23:38priority for all.
23:39Not usually important.
23:40Peter, your view?
23:41But he always did, has two points, and he digged into that. It's one of the troubled
23:45relations between Greenland and Denmark. We have seen this problem. It was too long called
23:49as a domestic issue. It is not giving the strategic importance. We should have taken
23:54– Denmark itself has taken more – and the second is indeed what you referred, and
23:59that's Arctic strategy. We are just now about to develop, ignored for too long, but
24:05it's an essential issue. That's absolutely correct.
24:07And also – and I agree with you – we have to develop an own European Arctic strategy
24:11that's becoming more and more urgent on security, but also, obviously, on economic
24:17interests and geostrategic interests. But I also think that it's really important
24:22that we understand, and that's something that we heard from colleagues from my parliamentary
24:25fraction that they have been on a mission to Greenland last week. We also have to understand
24:31that the people of Greenland, they don't particularly want to be Danish. They don't
24:38want to be American.
24:39Well, on that point, actually, it's interesting because everyone's talking about Greenland,
24:41even though most people probably don't even know exactly where it is. And Shona Murray
24:45accompanied your colleagues on that trip. You're in use as a reporter, and actually
24:49had the opportunity to speak to some locals, and we can play an excerpt from them there.
24:54You're talking about independence, but what does independence mean? No one is truly independent.
24:59We are all relying on everyone else. No one really wants to be bought by the U.S. I mean,
25:04the whole abrupt way of coming forward and saying that I want to buy Greenland, it's
25:09like we're not for sale, we're not playing Monopoly here in this world.
25:13It's very colonial mindset when you think, when Denmark no longer has Greenland, U.S.
25:20will just take it. And it's just like colonizers talking with another colonizer mindset. It's
25:27like we have rights as human beings.
25:29It's a very clear message from locals there that it's not for sale. And data shows that
25:3485% of locals are against joining the U.S. In fact, they want to push for self-governance.
25:38If you want to be serious about an Arctic strategy, whether it's for the United States
25:42or for Europe or for NATO, you know, buy more icebreakers, you know, figure out ways for
25:47people to invest there in responsible ways. I think Mark Rutte, the Secretary General
25:52of NATO, his approach was actually quite the right one on this. We say, OK, you're concerned
25:56about security in Greenland. NATO can take a bigger role there and it will be fully in
26:02line with transatlantic security interests and it's not going to send strange signals
26:05to allies and all the rest of it. That's the way forward.
26:07Yeah, Mark Rutte, Secretary General of NATO, he joined EU leaders this week for their retreat
26:12here in Brussels where they were discussing defense. And he made that point. It's not
26:15the right strategy.
26:16Yes, and what it also says is that we need to wake up as Europe and be able to solve
26:22our own defense and security on our own. As part of NATO, yes, because we believe in NATO
26:27as the alliance which keeps us safe. But yet, we have someone in the White House who's not
26:31very reliable. So this is the time to invest in our own defense production and operations
26:39and see if we, as Europe, once and for all, wake up from this peace dividend on which
26:44we have been living for decades.
26:46And that was precisely the message that was coming out of that retreat this Monday.
26:49Well, and we have to be able to say no, even to our closest ally. And we have seen how
26:54Canada and Mexico reacted in different ways, sometimes very clever, I must say. I think
26:58we can learn a lot also from these kinds of confrontations.
27:01And just on that, Sumit, were you following it on Monday with the EU leaders? Did you
27:05think it was a success, this idea to have this retreat more reflective?
27:09Well, you have to have this reflection. I mean, and you know, in a certain sense, the
27:13advent of another Trump administration is really, you know, just put more fuel under
27:18issues that were already very hot in Europe for real reasons. I mean, economic competitiveness
27:23is one, but also strategic autonomy, the defense industrial base, all those things.
27:28And now that those are really tough issues, it would be better to do them with a transatlantic
27:33relationship that works and without the style. Because in fact, it's a huge, who knows what,
27:39decades-long project to build European defense in a way that would somehow compensate for
27:44the loss of the United States. And that, by the way, that could happen by something happening
27:47in Asia. It doesn't have to be Donald Trump being disenchanted. It could be other things.
27:52Very tough to do, but important to have the debate.
27:55And when will President Trump be paying a visit to Brussels?
27:57Well, I hope very soon. But he is ambitious in other issues and doesn't put it on the
28:03highest agenda, unfortunately.
28:05Ian might have some insights.
28:06No, I don't have any indication. But I mean, I also have a vision in my mind, perhaps,
28:10of President von der Leyen going to Mar-a-Lago or something like this that would maybe serve
28:15the same purpose. I'm not sure how it would end.
28:18Because, of course, we saw a couple of weeks ago, Georgia Maloney visited Mar-a-Lago.
28:22Successfully.
28:22And she had a phone call with President von der Leyen, who was sick in bed that date,
28:28so she could pass on her messages.
28:30Which is problematic on several levels, because we also see, and we might discuss that also
28:36later today, but we also see that Georgia Maloney is proactively undermining European
28:42initiatives to become more self-sufficient on the field of defence, on the field of space,
28:47for example.
28:48So I do think that it's problematic when one single EU leader, who also has, on some
28:55aspects, a very much anti-European agenda, takes the lead in the transatlantic relationships.
29:02I would really, relations, I would prefer to see that coordinated from the Commission
29:06and the Council.
29:07Well, on that very interesting point, we can bring this conversation to an end.
29:10Thank you so much to our panel for being with us.
29:12And thank you so much for watching.
29:14Of course, for any more information on anything you've heard, check out euronews.com.
29:18But for now, see you soon here on Euronews.
29:20Hello there, and welcome to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekly politics chat show.
29:33I'm Maeve McMahon, and along with Peter Heffeley, Policy Director at the Wilfrid Martin Centre,
29:38Raquel GarcÃa-Armida van der Valle, Liberal MEP from the Netherlands, and Ian Lesser,
29:43Director of the Brussels branch of the American think tank, the German Marshall Fund,
29:47we're just taking a look back at the news of the week.
29:49And one that turned our heads was this.
29:52The EU's first ever Commissioner for Space, speaking at the annual European Space Conference,
29:57calling for a European space shield.
29:59Andreas Kubilis from Lithuania will also be in charge of defence.
30:03And he's calling for a big bang approach to space with huge European investments.
30:08With more and more countries competing for dominance in space,
30:11and Russia and China even joining forces,
30:13the Commissioner has warned that Europeans cannot leave space to, quote,
30:17aggressive authoritarians.
30:19Peter, your take on this.
30:21How realistic are these plans to invest?
30:23Of the conference you referred to, indeed, it was not only Kubilis attending,
30:27it was also Lecun and Ancalas that shows
30:29how much importance it puts beyond the defence issue.
30:32This is an issue across also technology.
30:35And what we often forget, I think we are,
30:37Europeans are leading in space technology in many ways.
30:40We just look to Elon Musk's launching pads, but this is only a tiny part of the story.
30:45But nobody talks about Galileo or IRIS.
30:48It's a very technical issue, so we don't get the message out.
30:51Well, the director, of course, of the European Space Agency was there at that conference,
30:54and he's actually very confident, and we had a chat with him.
30:57We can take a listen to Josef Aschbacher.
31:00People think Europe is not strong in space.
31:02We're actually very strong.
31:03We have a few programmes where we are among the best in the world,
31:07where we are the senior partner,
31:09and sometimes NASA is the junior partner in some of our programmes.
31:13We need three things to succeed.
31:15Number one, we need talent.
31:17Number two, you need money, access to money.
31:20And number three, we need to be simpler, faster and more agile.
31:24So there you go, the director of the European Space Agency.
31:26Raquel, now we're spending around 12 billion in space.
31:29Is that enough?
31:31I think that it's a matter of coordinating better,
31:33but definitely spending more and investing more in our own autonomy, what Ian said.
31:40I'm not so much for putting a number on it at this point,
31:43but I do think that it's important what the commissioner said,
31:46that we're not reliant and dependent on aggressive autocrats.
31:52And let me be very clear about that.
31:55I consider Elon Musk with his dominance of commercial satellites
31:59part of that constellation of aggressive autocrats,
32:02and we have seen the consequences for that in the war in Ukraine,
32:05where at some point he was apparently had a change of heart
32:08and decided that he might not offer access to the Ukrainian forces
32:13to Starlink satellites anymore.
32:14You mentioned Elon Musk's big plans.
32:16And of course, President Trump, when he was sworn in,
32:18he mentioned Mars and his big plans to pursue his destiny into the stars,
32:24launching American astronauts to plant the stars on stripes on the planet Mars.
32:27How did that go down?
32:28I think there's every reason for Europe to want to do more in this space,
32:33use the term.
32:34I think, look, it's partly about commercial interest.
32:37It's partly about defense interest, which is growing, obviously.
32:40But it's also, in a sense, about prestige for the European project,
32:44national prestige.
32:45Certainly when President Trump has spoken about it,
32:47there is a heavy dose of that.
32:48And that's very historic for the United States,
32:51going back to the Kennedy administration and even earlier.
32:54But the point is, it is very well taken
32:56that Europe is already a leader in many respects on space.
32:59The question is, how much money?
33:01Money was mentioned as one of the key three things.
33:03How much money compared to what is now going to be needed
33:05in other parts of the portfolio that was mentioned on defense, for example?
33:10It's always down to money, and money is tight.
33:12We also wanted to hear, Peter, from a European astronaut to get his take.
33:15So we had a chat with the Italian Luca Parmitano.
33:18Take a look.
33:19There is a lot to look forward to for European astronauts.
33:22Right now, for the short term,
33:25we have two astronauts already in training for their mission
33:27to the International Space Station.
33:29We are looking forward to Artemis 2 mission,
33:33the first mission with a crew to the Moon, around the Moon, I should say,
33:37because that will be the opening statement that will allow European astronauts
33:43to start thinking about flying towards the Moon,
33:45first to the gateway,
33:47and then one day also in the long term on the surface of the Moon.
33:51Let's not forget that the Lunar Gateway,
33:53the space station that we are building around the Moon,
33:56is built almost entirely here in Europe.
33:59So I would say that we have some unique expertise.
34:01So Luca Parmitano there, being very positive,
34:04like you were, Peter, there earlier.
34:05Yes, and following what you said in defence issues,
34:08this is one of the biggest holes in our spectrum of capabilities.
34:12We cannot talk about autonomy if we do not fill that gap,
34:15and we have seen the weaknesses so far.
34:19And it's logic, and it's the same like the Arctic.
34:22These are the two points where we have not extended our outreach.
34:25It's like we're late to the conversation, no?
34:27I'm not sure that we're late to the conversation.
34:28I feel very encouraged by what we hear from the European Space Agency
34:32on how we are leading on many fronts.
34:34And again, to make my point about being reliant on our own prowess,
34:40I think that it's important that member states
34:43keep investing in European capabilities,
34:45and I think it sends the absolute wrong signal
34:48when countries like Italy, under Maloney,
34:50is going to be making one-on-one deals with Elon Musk
34:53instead of investing in what we are already doing as Europe.
34:56Part of this is about economic competitiveness as well,
34:59but part of it is also about defence needs and other things.
35:02It would be so much easier and so much more efficient,
35:04that was mentioned,
35:06if we didn't have this problem of trust across the Atlantic.
35:10I mean, increasingly, you could imagine this European debate
35:13about space policy being driven more and more
35:15about perceptions of American unreliability somehow.
35:19That's not the place we should be
35:20if we're all looking for efficiency and reliance.
35:23But was it a priority in the previous administration?
35:25For Biden?
35:27Sure.
35:28I mean, there have always been commercial,
35:29you know, part of this is about,
35:31there's a big commercial piece to this,
35:33but this wasn't a big defence piece,
35:34a big intelligence piece,
35:36you know, it's hugely important for all sorts of reasons.
35:39There, I think the relationship across the Atlantic,
35:43via NATO, was much more predictable.
35:45And just finally, describe to our viewers
35:47how this European space shield could look.
35:50Well, major components are already there,
35:52and the plans are extremely ambitious.
35:55We, as I mentioned, we talk about, too often, about Musk.
35:58But if you look into the ambitions of Europe,
36:00it's impressive how we fill these gaps
36:02and how it wants the technologies.
36:04And we are not the only one.
36:05Well, Japan, for example, is an interesting partner, or India.
36:08So it's not just the United States
36:10with matter in this equation.
36:11One of the big tests for this will actually be
36:13competing ideas about missile defence
36:16in the United States, in Europe,
36:18where we have now competing ideas of how to organise this.
36:21It's hugely expensive.
36:22It's maybe hugely important.
36:23A lot of it is about space policy.
36:25And you mentioned India.
36:26There's plans for the European Commission president
36:28and I believe her whole team to head there very soon.
36:30She was speaking this week to ambassadors,
36:33European ambassadors from all across the globe.
36:35But on that point, we can bring this conversation to an end.
36:38Thank you so much to Raquel GarcÃa-Armida van der Walle,
36:41Liberal MEP from the Netherlands for being with us,
36:43Peter Heffele, Director of the Wilfrid Martin Centre,
36:45and Iain Lesser, the Director of the German Marshall Fund
36:47here in Brussels.
36:49Thank you so much for being with us.
36:50And thank you, of course, for watching.
36:52brusselsmylove.euronews.com.
36:54That is our email address if you want to drop us a line
36:57on anything you've heard today
36:59or any topics that you'd like us to dive into.
37:01And also you can check out euronews.com
37:03for any more in-depth analysis.
37:05Thanks again for watching.
37:06See you soon.