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#AcharyaPrashant #आचार्यप्रशांत #Philosophy #BhagavadGita #climatechange
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Video Information: 11.02.2022, Interview Session, Goa
Context:
~ What is Climate Change?
~ How to stop climate change?
~ What is the solution to global warming?
~ How can we control the increasing population?
~How can spirituality solve the problem of global warming?
~What is the most effective way of dealing with climate change?
~ How can population control help in dealing with climate change?
~What is the solution to climate change?
~How spirituality can stop climate change?
~Climate change has no scientific solution
Music Credits: Milind Date
The interviewer is Dr. Eban Goodstein, Environmental Economist, Director - Center for Environmental Policy, Bard College, New York, USA.
Be a part of the Live Sessions: https://acharyaprashant.org/hi/enquiry-gita-course?cmId=m00021
📚 Want to read Acharya Prashant's Books?
Get Free Delivery: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/books?cmId=m00021
📝 Read 3 handpicked wisdom articles, just for you: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/articles?cmId=m00021
➖➖➖
#AcharyaPrashant #आचार्यप्रशांत #Philosophy #BhagavadGita #climatechange
➖➖➖
Video Information: 11.02.2022, Interview Session, Goa
Context:
~ What is Climate Change?
~ How to stop climate change?
~ What is the solution to global warming?
~ How can we control the increasing population?
~How can spirituality solve the problem of global warming?
~What is the most effective way of dealing with climate change?
~ How can population control help in dealing with climate change?
~What is the solution to climate change?
~How spirituality can stop climate change?
~Climate change has no scientific solution
Music Credits: Milind Date
The interviewer is Dr. Eban Goodstein, Environmental Economist, Director - Center for Environmental Policy, Bard College, New York, USA.
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00Does the person you are with encourage you to read?
00:06You have to ask, what does he bring for me?
00:09Roses or books?
00:12If someone has a stake in making you better, that person will push you towards books.
00:17Books are what we all need.
00:30Acharya Prashant, it is a true honor to be here with you today talking about climate change and global warming as probably the biggest fundamental challenge facing humanity and the other creatures of the earth at this moment in time.
00:54I am the Director of the Graduate Programs in Sustainability at Bard College in New York. I'm an economist.
01:02And along with my colleagues, we are heading up an effort to create a worldwide teach-in on climate injustice scheduled for March 30, 2022, and then carrying on into 2023 and 2024.
01:19We're seeking to really tap into the deep concern that so many educators, teachers, students, staff members at high schools, at colleges, at universities around the world have about climate change.
01:34And our belief is that most students now understand basically the fundamental science of climate change.
01:44They get that we're putting pollution in the atmosphere, that's trapping heat, that's causing the planet to warm up.
01:50But by and large, they're just in despair about this and as a consequence are ignoring it because there's nothing they feel like they can do.
01:59And so they just live their lives, you know, kind of pretending that it's not happening.
02:04And the idea of the teach-in is that with these thousands, tens of thousands, millions of educators around the world who care about climate change are concerned about it, that we can help move these students from a sense of despair to a real sense of possibility and agency.
02:21Because the fact is, this is an incredibly exciting and decisive moment to be a human on this planet because more than any other generation before ours and before young people's generation, they have the ability to profoundly change the future.
02:39The work that they can do in the next year, five years, 10 years, 15 years will have an impact not only on their own lives and the lives of their children, but in fact for every human being who's going to walk the face of the planet from now until the end of time and for millions of species.
02:58So that's our mission and we're eager again to get thousands, tens of thousands of schools around the world globally involved.
03:11We have translated our website into Hindi and have got resources to support teachers.
03:18But the basic idea is a bottom-up conversation, tapping into existing concerns, existing knowledge and helping communities move towards solutions.
03:27So I'm very eager to get your take on how this might work and kind of what the basic issues are and what the basic obstacles are.
03:36I'm very glad to be speaking to you, Dr. Iban, and I'm really happy that someone like you who has put in so much of interest and effort in this most important area facing all of us, the entire humankind.
03:56And obviously the young population is here to talk to and yes, as you said, it's a very critical juncture for this generation and rather for the history of mankind in general.
04:21We might use this crisis to bring about rather fundamental shift in our consciousness, in the way we live, we approach life, we approach each other, we approach natural resources.
04:37Or we could just squander this opportunity and the worst case scenario is we might just move towards our own obliteration.
04:52But yes, as you put so much emphasis on hope, obviously we have to understand that our basic nature, fundamental nature is of wisdom and understanding and that's what we must stand by and that's where we stand.
05:13You see, I'll straight away introduce you to my position on this.
05:25See, it's a man-made thing, right, when we talk of climate change, the word anthropogenic is the most important.
05:38It's a basic thing but I'm reiterating because that's the thing we give the least attention to.
05:46We are treating climate change as if it is something outside of us, as if some asteroid from outer space came over and delivered all the gases and trapped all the heat in our atmosphere.
06:04I want all of us to pay attention to the fact that we have done it.
06:14It is our action and every action is representative of the state of the actor.
06:21We are in a particular state internally and therefore we are doing what we are doing externally.
06:29Now, our internal state has brought about this external action, this external state.
06:36And we are not addressing the root cause, we are not addressing the way we are and the way we have been probably all throughout our history.
06:46We do not want to address that because probably that's too painful and that would cause too tectonic a shift in our entire life system.
06:57So we want to treat it as one of the problems that face us.
07:02That's a very fragmented approach.
07:05Hence the solutions that we are thinking of are also pretty external in nature.
07:13So we want to move to greener technologies, we want to have carbon sequestering mechanisms,
07:22we want countries to pledge for reforestation, we want auto manufacturers to come up with newer technologies and such things.
07:34And countries quabble with each other, who should bear the brunt and then issues of climate justice and such things crop up.
07:43The thing is, I want us to inquire into it.
07:49Are we even understanding where the whole thing is coming from, really?
07:54And if we do not understand that, is it not a fundamental conclusion that we will never be able to solve this problem
08:03and all the actions that we are trying to have as remedial actions would just be consolations.
08:13We would be entertaining ourselves and we would be rather gratifying ourselves that we are doing something meaningful and fruitful and nothing would come out of it.
08:26And I am not just hypothesizing in a vacuum.
08:30You see, we started taking this thing a bit seriously in 1990.
08:36That's the watershed year.
08:39And we are more than three decades from there now.
08:43And not only have we failed to reduce or neutralize carbon, the fact is today we are releasing 20-40% more carbon than we used to do three decades back.
09:00And that's with all our climate action.
09:03And there is really no hope that we are going to achieve carbon neutrality any soon.
09:11My country, India, for example, even as a matter of pledge has quoted 2070.
09:19Now that to me is just too far off.
09:25And this kind of action is just too insufficient.
09:30So, we are doing it.
09:34We are doing it.
09:36And there are two things about us that are causing it.
09:39They are so fundamental that we don't even talk about them.
09:42Those two things are the numbers that we are and the numbers that are represented by our per capita consumption.
09:55And even these two are fundamentally one.
09:59The inbuilt human tendency to take consumption as an indicator of the fulfillment or success of one's life.
10:13That's the reason we multiply.
10:16And that's the reason we want to consume more and more.
10:20And climate change is hardly anything but a function of our numbers on this planet, our population,
10:28and the per capita consumption by each person of our species.
10:34Unfortunately, irrespective of the variations in culture, thought, religion, ethnicity, all that we have across the world,
10:45about one thing we all are fully in agreement.
10:52And that is that we all need to have a good time by consuming more and more.
10:59Be it the Indian, the Chinese, the American, the African, anybody.
11:03We all want to have a happy life and about a happy life the thing is consumption.
11:09Consume more and let there be more people who can consume more.
11:14So the slogan really is more to consume more.
11:18And nobody seems to want to address that because that is just too explosive an issue probably,
11:24especially in a democratic setup.
11:26The fundamental thing is we are just too many.
11:29And if we remain as many as we are, then I don't want to sound nihilist or something,
11:38but I don't really see hope unless we address that one thing.
11:42Equally, if we can address that one thing, especially to youngsters,
11:46then obviously there is a lot of hope and a great possibility
11:50and that possibility will then not relate only to climate change, but to everything that we do.
11:55As human beings we will be able to lead richer, deeper, more meaningful lives,
11:59more loving lives, lives of compassion, lives of less strife, and lives that have a certain fulfillment.
12:09So that's my simple position in a nutshell.
12:12Obviously, we'll be going into the nuances of everything,
12:18but I thought it would be better to just put everything on the table right away.
12:26That's such a clear statement of the challenge that we're in.
12:29Fundamentally, there's eight and a half billion of us, soon to be nine, soon to be ten.
12:35Half the folks on the planet are barely getting by and living on a few dollars a day,
12:40and everybody is aspiring to more.
12:43And this has led us to already be fighting over water and topsoil and fish and forests and biodiversity,
12:51and it's the fundamental reason the planet is heating up.
12:55I would maybe differ with you a bit because I think that,
13:00while I think that in the long run humans need to figure out how to come into
13:06the right relationship with themselves and with the planet,
13:10in terms of this quest for more,
13:15I think that with the climate issue in particular,
13:18there is a window in which technology can buy us time.
13:23And so I believe there is good news on the endless numbers of people on the planet.
13:33Population growth rates are slowing down finally.
13:38China, I believe, this year for the first time has tipped into a negative growth for population.
13:47So I'm hopeful that humanity, we can see our way through,
13:52and we can stop at 10 billion and then slowly have the population decline,
13:58create more space for people, create more space for creatures.
14:02But I feel like we're at this moment, this critical juncture where we have to get this right.
14:07Technology can buy us time, but I agree fundamentally,
14:12it's how do humans heal themselves and really develop a healthy relationship
14:18with each other and with the planet.
14:20Dr. Iban, I too want to be an optimist on that count.
14:26In fact, because I want us to be there in the medium run at least,
14:32and I want us to not only exist, but exist in a healthy way,
14:40in a fulfilling way.
14:41Therefore, I want to be realistic about the threats that face us.
14:48You see, yes, that's very true that as economies prosper,
14:53then birth rates go down and at some point we achieve population stability.
15:02But then again, I want us to inquire into what makes people in a developed place have fewer kids.
15:12Is it because they become full of empathy and concern?
15:18Is that what is happening in, let's say, Japan or Germany?
15:21And what causes people in a place like, let's say, Bangladesh,
15:29or parts of India, still in the north, to have relatively very high fertility rates?
15:38Is it because they are intrinsically violent people compared to the Japanese or the Germans?
15:44No, that's not the thing.
15:45Even when the fertility rates are going down,
15:51they are going down because of the desire to consume life even more deeply.
15:59I do not want to spend child on the kid because I want to rather spend time vacationing and touring the globe.
16:06Now, my question is, having a child has a great carbon footprint.
16:12And if I do not have a child because I want to consume all kinds of material prosperity,
16:20and I want to be a globe trotter, I want to be flying, let's say, 30 to 40 days per year.
16:27Is that going to reduce the carbon footprint compared to the decision of having a child?
16:32Or is it going to be just equal to that?
16:35So, mere reduction of population in itself will not be sufficient.
16:41Because the reduction in population itself will be a by-product of prosperity.
16:46And prosperity itself has a carbon footprint.
16:48So, please tell me how is just prosperity going to help when prosperity itself means carbon.
16:54Prosperity means carbon.
16:56Our emotions mean carbon.
16:57Everything that we do simply means carbon because at the center of our existence is a lot of carbon.
17:05It is indeed.
17:07No, and I agree with you.
17:08I mean, it is essentially the reason that people are having fewer children.
17:15And not only in the wealthiest countries, but as I said, also in China now.
17:20Fundamentally, they feel like they can't afford them because of the expectations that life is about consumption.
17:32And is about having that car and that apartment and all of those things.
17:39And so, yeah, I'd love to hear.
17:41How do we then, from your perspective, make that transition to a better and more healthy relationship with each other and with the planet?
17:52And de-emphasize the need to have a closet full of clothes that you never wear or, you know, three cars.
18:02And, you know, how do we move in that direction?
18:05First of all, I want to give due credit and acknowledgement to technology.
18:11I'm just not decrying the role of technology.
18:15We need better technologies today.
18:18But I see their role more as that of NLG6.
18:24There is a lot of pain.
18:26There is a lot of current immediate pain.
18:29And therefore, we need better technologies to manage that pain.
18:33Technology cannot really cure this situation, but can give us a temporary relief.
18:41Also, it can give us a longer rope with which to maneuver our way towards a solution.
18:51So, the window that we have, I suppose that's what you said, the window that we have is broadened by technology.
18:58So, first of all, yes, due credit technology.
19:01Now, I want to put forward the reservations that I have with respect to technology.
19:07Technology shows us a false dawn.
19:11So, if I, for example, get an air conditioner, in India, we have these star ratings on ACs.
19:20And if you have a higher star rating, it means that the power consumption is relatively lower.
19:27And India is a relatively warm place.
19:31And as people get prosperous, one of the first things that they want in their homes is more air conditioners.
19:37Initially people start with having air conditioner in one of the rooms.
19:40And then they want air conditioners in all two rooms, three rooms, and if they have, five rooms.
19:45So, let's say we have a young one in the family who has been sensitized in the school or in the college
19:54about the enormity of this problem of climate.
19:58So, he raises his hands up and he says, no, nothing doing, we cannot have so many ACs and it's not good for the climate.
20:05The elder sister comes in and says, look, technology has brought in this new AC with a five star rating.
20:16And it consumes far lesser power.
20:20Now, that brings in a false sense of complacency.
20:25We used to have these very antiquated cars that we kind of inherited from the British, ambassador cars.
20:36And they used to be really great instruments of pollution of all kinds, including noise pollution.
20:47So, they were phased away.
20:49Now, you would hardly see any of them on Indian roads.
20:51Now, we have really sleek modern cars.
20:53In fact, we share a lot of them with the Americans, with the Europeans and we have the same models running here.
20:58But what has happened, what has happened is that the numbers have increased so very exponentially
21:06that the total emission count is nowhere close to what we used to have in the 70s or 80s.
21:14So, in spite of better and greener and more efficient technologies on the net,
21:19we stand very poorly compared to where we did even four decades back.
21:26So, from a macro perspective, is betterment in technology really helping
21:32or is it enabling the consumer of the technology to consume more and more with impunity
21:40and with the false assurance that you see I now have a moral license as well.
21:47I'm not a climate offender anymore because the technology that I'm consuming is so very green.
21:53No, I have a Tesla now rather than a Suzuki or a Hyundai.
21:58The thing is, is a Tesla really carbon neutral?
22:02Well, you know, I agree with you and I think we're getting back to that fundamental question
22:08of kind of too many people consuming too many things.
22:11But I would say that there is a shift, right?
22:15That, I mean, it's not just green technology, it's low carbon technology.
22:20And again, how do we buy, how do we extend the window?
22:23How do we buy time?
22:24We have to move to a 100% renewable energy economy globally, right?
22:32And stop burning fossil fuels, that's one thing we have to do.
22:36And the other thing we have to do is figure out how to develop regenerative agriculture techniques
22:41that trap carbon in the soil and that also raise the income and livelihoods of farmers,
22:47small farmers in particular.
22:49So those two technology changes, a shift to 100% renewable energy,
22:55and that means battery powered everything,
22:58and regenerative agriculture that pulls carbon out of the atmosphere
23:02and increases the well-being of farmers.
23:05Those are the two things that buy us the time.
23:09Now, it is true that there's so much greenwashing though.
23:14And what we have to keep our eye on is, okay, I have all these new technologies,
23:18but is my carbon footprint going up or down?
23:20That's, you know, as an individual, as a nation, as a company, that's the measure.
23:26And we can't be distracted by these shiny new toys that claim to be green or whatever
23:32when they really are just enabling more consumption, more pollution.
23:38So I think we can make progress there.
23:43But then again, I agree with you that ultimately the problem lies in us understanding
23:51our relationship with each other and with the Earth.
23:56And how do we get there?
23:58Because that is the hard, how do we get eight or nine billion people
24:03to have that kind of a consciousness shift?
24:06And I think the opportunity, as you say, is now.
24:09I mean, because we are in crisis with the Earth.
24:12Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I think we have to begin with our schools.
24:17There has to be a basic self-inquiry process with the kids.
24:26I don't know whether it sounds outlandish as I say it.
24:29Even if it does, let's think about it.
24:33Why not ask the kids, why are we born? Why do we exist at all?
24:37And we don't want to come from a religion or a scripture or a particular ideology.
24:43Let's have a freewheeling discussion on this thing.
24:46Why do we exist at all? What's the purpose?
24:49The thing is, once we are sensitized to this question and it becomes something important in the mind,
24:57then the purpose of life is no more mere consumption.
25:04And when you do not have a great purpose, a lively and a lovable purpose to live by,
25:13then the only thing one lives for is just consumption.
25:18And unfortunately it seems that a huge majority of the people across the world
25:25are living very purposelessly and hence they live just to consume.
25:30And that's the reason why we measure the progresses of countries through their GDPs.
25:38That's why everything that we want to talk of has to be talked in numbers
25:44and particularly numbers denoting money.
25:48I am again not a money hater or something.
25:53I am rather pro-life and pro-purpose.
25:58How will you stop a person from just trying out the next thing in the market
26:06if he has nothing else in his life?
26:09And how will you stop a company, let's say a consumer goods company,
26:14from producing the next attractive and alluring thing
26:20if the owners and the stakeholders in that company want nothing but money
26:27because that's all that they have in their life?
26:30You see, we talked of reaching carbon neutral stage.
26:36Let's have great technologies.
26:39But I just want to open the question.
26:42Aren't we trusting ourselves just too much?
26:46And if we look at the track record of our species,
26:49do we really deserve to be trusted so much?
26:53I mean, right now, one particular element, carbon, is the problem.
26:57How do you know and how are you so sure
27:00that in the process of dealing with carbon,
27:03we will not make nitrogen the next big problem?
27:06It already is coming up.
27:08Nitrogen is an issue.
27:10Just that this issue will probably become large enough
27:13and frightening enough three decades later.
27:15Sulphur is an issue.
27:17And all kinds of heavy metals are an issue.
27:20But we are not talking of heavy metals so much today.
27:24We are not talking of sulphur so much today.
27:26We are not talking of lead and arsenic so much today.
27:28We are not talking of radioactive stuff so much today.
27:31In mitigating carbon,
27:34I am afraid we are going to prop up some other problem
27:38because we as a species,
27:40I am saying with all humility,
27:43are not wise enough.
27:46Though we think we are just too smart.
27:48So we try this, we try that and then we, you know,
27:51No, that's a representative of the oldest civilization
27:58speaking to the newest one.
28:00Well, please help us.
28:03Help me understand how we become wiser.
28:05Because I mean, I do agree with you.
28:07I think the idea of purpose is interesting.
28:10I run an MBA program in sustainability.
28:13So it's a business program.
28:15But the vision of the business program is
28:19how do you build a business that's actually in business
28:22to solve critical social and environmental problems
28:25like climate change.
28:27How do you do that, right?
28:29And of course, it has to be financially successful.
28:31It's a business.
28:32It has to make enough money to cover its costs.
28:35But how do you put purpose first
28:38and then have financial success and profitability follow?
28:42What's interesting is that this idea of purpose-driven business
28:45has become very popular in Europe and the United States at least
28:50as kind of the way to, the better way to make money, right?
28:55Because if you can, people want purpose in life
28:58and if a company can provide its employees
29:00and its consumers with a sense of purpose,
29:02then it will be more successful.
29:08And then, of course, you get into this question of
29:11is it greenwashing, you know, and is it just a smokescreen
29:14or is the company really dedicated to purpose?
29:17And one of my professors, Hunter Lovins,
29:19likes to say that hypocrisy is the first step towards real change
29:24so that if you at least get people committed to purpose,
29:27then you can hold them accountable and begin to move them
29:30along those dimensions.
29:33But, you know, human life has evolved under capitalism, right,
29:38to elevate consumption as the road to status, right?
29:44And status is what we're hard, in my opinion,
29:46is what we are hardwired for by evolution, right?
29:50Because, you know, we all seek status in our communities
29:53and the way we get it is through consumption.
29:56How can we build societies in which people gain self-worth
29:59and status without that?
30:01I mean, we can look to indigenous communities,
30:04for example, in the United States.
30:06There's a potlatch culture in the Northwestern US
30:09where people actually gain status by giving things away.
30:12The more you gave away, the higher the status
30:15that you achieved in your community.
30:17Can we make that shift?
30:19No, the thing is, why do we need status at all?
30:24When we said that we need to initiate this discussion among young kids,
30:30why don't we ask them this question?
30:32Why do you need to draw your self-worth or self-esteem from somebody else?
30:38Because as long as we need those things from others,
30:42we will need a lot of goods from the world.
30:45You see, these two things are so very interlinked, no?
30:48I want my self-worth to come from the world
30:52and I want objects that supply me happiness to come from the world.
30:59Must I be so dependent on the world?
31:01It is not a condition of great helplessness.
31:04The world can withdraw its sanction anytime.
31:07The world can withdraw the status it gave to me anytime.
31:10Universities, when they offer degrees,
31:13they attach a rider.
31:16Even the degrees can be rescinded.
31:20My degrees are not with me forever,
31:23so if I attach my identity to my educational qualifications,
31:26I am running a risk and I will be afraid.
31:29Should I really live like this?
31:31Must I really live like this?
31:33You talked of sustainable businesses in the MBA program you referred to
31:37and when it comes to MBA programs,
31:41I have been through a pretty prestigious MBA program,
31:44so what really is the definition of success?
31:48When do I call myself successful?
31:51And if I do not have a rigorous definition of success,
31:56then no amount of money will suffice, no?
31:59When do I say I am really successful?
32:02A related question is,
32:04and you would find it interesting doctor,
32:07why do businesses fail?
32:10Why do businesses fail?
32:12I have mentored a few businesses and in my limited experience,
32:16I have seen businesses fail because they
32:19fail really to live up to the expectations of their founders.
32:24Businesses don't fail.
32:26They just prove too inadequate
32:31compared to the ambition of those who launched them.
32:35So do I really require to be a superstar to have a successful business?
32:40No.
32:41I just need to have modest ambitions
32:44and my business will be successful.
32:47Unless the idea is really rotten.
32:50I cannot sell coombs to what I will be two decades later,
32:57to a person like me.
32:59So unless we have that kind of mindless idea,
33:03businesses are not really going to fail
33:07and achieving profitability or sustainability in business
33:11is not going to be such a Herculean task.
33:14But because we want just too much from life,
33:18hence businesses fail.
33:21You know, I want to spend this much,
33:24I want to have at least this thick a bottom line
33:27and that's not what I am getting.
33:29So I would rather shut shop.
33:31This kind of a thing happens.
33:33I had thought I would come up with an IPO in the fourth year.
33:36You know, break even in eight months
33:39and that's not materializing.
33:41And why am I not having that break even thing in eight months flat?
33:45So if I love really what I do,
33:48will I ever let it fail?
33:50That's my question.
33:51So let me get back to your idea of engaging young people
33:54with the idea of purpose.
33:56And helping them understand that purpose is
33:59not about dying with the most toys, as we like to say.
34:02You know, that should not be your purpose in life.
34:05And I think that young people are open to that.
34:08I mean, there's something about young people
34:11that they are searching for that.
34:14And perhaps that should be the goal of the teaching, right?
34:17Is to help young people question this sort of commitment
34:21to endless consumption.
34:27How do you, if you, and I see many young people
34:30in the United States who, you know,
34:34are choosing veganism for climate reasons,
34:38you know, living plastic-free lives,
34:41you know, trying to explore what it really means
34:44to be in kind of a right relationship
34:47with themselves and the Earth.
34:49So how do we,
34:53how do we, I mean, but it's a small group, right?
34:56It's 1%, you know.
34:57How do we expand that appeal of that kind of questioning of life
35:01to more young people?
35:04Teachings, just as you are approaching them.
35:09We'll have to teach, we'll have to teach.
35:12And I suppose any good business today
35:17to survive has to first of all generate awareness.
35:22Therefore it has to be in the business of teaching, right?
35:26Because the right product today
35:30would need an aware buyer.
35:35You just cannot sell the right thing to the wrong person.
35:40If I am someone conditioned by generations of consumptions
35:45of advertising and misplaced cultural values
35:50and somebody comes up with a great product or great service,
35:55I'm not going to buy that.
35:58So if I come up with something that really is good
36:03from internal perspective, from an ecological perspective,
36:07then I'll have to first of all generate awareness.
36:10And I'll have to be prepared to go that extra mile
36:14and put in that much of extra effort.
36:17So the business of teaching is what this world needs today.
36:22I'm not saying one has to be in that sense just a teacher,
36:26but you'll have to be a teacher as well.
36:29You want to come up for example with a great vegan cafe
36:35or a great vegan recipe or a packaged vegan product
36:39in a place let's say like North India
36:43where there is not much sensitivity or awareness regarding veganism
36:49and where dairy production and consumption is a cultural value.
36:54First of all you'll have to educate the population
36:58and you'll have to educate the population
37:00to a point where they are prepared to accept the product
37:04even if it turns out a little expensive.
37:06Though typically it won't be extra expensive,
37:10but even if it is, education will make it acceptable and affordable to people.
37:16Same thing when it comes to clothes,
37:19when it comes to automobiles,
37:21when it comes to even tourism destinations
37:26or when it comes to means of gratification.
37:32That's what we need today.
37:35You please tell me, otherwise I'm curious to know
37:38how can I have a great business in a market that does not value that business.
37:47How will I get my employees?
37:49How will I get my vendors?
37:51How will I get my customers?
37:53Even the government is not going to support me.
37:55Rather I would find that the government is subsidizing my competitor
37:59and that competitor is feasting on all kinds of rotten and polluting technologies.
38:04But because that competitor has a market around him
38:08and in a democracy it's the numbers that matter
38:11so the government seems to be more aligned with him.
38:13How will I survive in the market?
38:15So I have to be an educator.
38:17I know that's going to be tough,
38:20but then as a young person,
38:22when we are talking of that segment,
38:24as a young person, I ought to have the stamina for troubles.
38:30Why not?
38:31That's what would probably make life worth living.
38:34Yes, yes.
38:36Well, I think we're in agreement that fundamentally education is the key
38:43and that we need people with a different vision
38:48of how humans should be living on the planet
38:51to become educators.
38:53And I'll just say that the vision of our teach-in really is
38:58just to recognize that many, many teachers, many, many students,
39:04many, many staff members at universities and high schools
39:08and secondary schools,
39:10they understand the depth of the climate crisis.
39:12They know that this is existential.
39:14They know that if we do not change course,
39:21that we are going to be experiencing a world
39:23where in many parts of the world it will simply be too hot to live,
39:27where sea levels will rise, where crops will fail.
39:31And they're frightened of that.
39:35And it is a moment to really rethink what are we doing on this planet
39:41if this is the direction that we're headed.
39:44And so the purpose of the teach-in is to just bring all of those people
39:48together and have this conversation.
39:51Yes, we can buy time with technology.
39:54Yes, we can do that.
39:55But at the end of the day, what is this telling us about humans
40:00and the way we're living on the planet?
40:03So that is the purpose of the teach-in.
40:05It's really creating a community, a global community of educators
40:08and giving them the chance to interact with each other.
40:12We do it on Zoom calls.
40:14But also to bring together people in their community
40:17with a similar concern to start to have these conversations.
40:21And when we're talking of consumption, doctor,
40:26the very basic kind of consumption, food,
40:33just as we don't want to talk of our numbers on the planet
40:38because that becomes an emotive issue in a democratic setup,
40:42we also do not want to talk of our food choices.
40:45But the fact is, and the numbers are out in the open,
40:48that food is probably the largest, or if not the largest,
40:53the second largest contributor to greenhouse gas emission.
40:57And we don't want to talk of that.
40:59And the thing is, carbon-emitting food choices
41:06are also mostly food choices that involve cruelty towards animals,
41:13that involve a distorted relationship between our species and the other species.
41:18The thing is, when we say that we must take care of ourselves,
41:22that we must care for our future,
41:24how will we bring in that kind of self-love?
41:27I invite us to think about it.
41:29How will we have that kind of self-love
41:31if we do not have love for the other species that inhibited this planet?
41:36I mean, the very thing on my plate is coming as a result of slaughter.
41:44Why then will I not be disinterested in stopping the slaughter
41:51of the biggest carbon sinks on the planet, the forests?
41:55For the sake of my food, we are killing not just directly,
42:02and even as we have spoken over the last 30 minutes or so,
42:05millions of animals have been slaughtered in these 30 minutes,
42:09just for our appetite.
42:11And not only are these animals being slaughtered,
42:14forests are being cleared,
42:16just so that we can have farms to raise these animals.
42:23Now when we are clearing those forests,
42:25we are erasing the biggest carbon sinks that we can have.
42:31Also, we are robbing the species of their habitat.
42:37And in doing all that,
42:41how are we displaying any kind of self-love?
42:46So self-love, when it comes to talking of our own interests as species,
42:51self-love has to be inseparable from love towards the wider ecosystem.
42:57Unfortunately, that's not what our education is teaching young people.
43:01Otherwise, it's very, very easy to take care of this problem.
43:05All the deadlines that we are setting for ourselves,
43:09be it 2030 or 50 or 70,
43:12we can overachieve even before those deadlines.
43:19Because it's we who are doing it.
43:22That's the challenge and that's the opportunity.
43:24It's not being sent down by the gods.
43:28It's not being conspired by the aliens.
43:32We are doing it.
43:33And if we are doing it, we may as well stop it right now.
43:37But to stop it, we require the kind of consciousness
43:41that acknowledges itself as the culprit.
43:44That acknowledges that it has been living in ignorance
43:48and it has been living in ignorance all throughout these centuries,
43:51just that the ignorance was not displaying its devastating consequences
43:56because our numbers were not so large.
43:58And because the industrial revolution had yet not happened,
44:01therefore we did not have this much power to destruct in our hands.
44:05Now, we have numbers and we have the industry
44:09and we have the technology and the know-how, the knowledge
44:12and we have great power and all this is a very, very explosive combination.
44:17So, that's where we are and it's a very slippery slope, very slippery slope.
44:26I am fighting it in my little way on a daily basis
44:32and I see the challenges and the challenge that I am seeing,
44:38Professor, is really not technological.
44:41Jealousy, you cannot treat through technology.
44:44Ignorance, you cannot treat through technology.
44:47Lovelessness, you cannot treat through technology.
44:49All the human darkness within, you cannot deal through technology.
44:56And when I talk of veganism or when I talk of plastic
45:00or when I talk of population, when I talk of climate,
45:03the obstacle that I face, I repeat, is not technological.
45:07It's not that people are not aware of better technologies.
45:11It's not that people are not aware of the numbers.
45:14It's just that people have not been sensitized enough.
45:18People are not loving enough.
45:20The norms that we have, the norms post the enlightenment period in Europe,
45:26the religious values that we have, the distorted religious values,
45:30that is not the really spiritual values,
45:34they are not at all conducive towards solution of this problem.
45:41Education, I think, unfortunately, fortunately is the only thing that can save us.
45:47We require huge armies of dedicated educators.
45:53We require tremendous propaganda.
45:56We require publicity in all ways, in all forms.
46:01We require people to go knocking each home
46:05and get the doors open and barge in and have tutorials.
46:10And if that can happen, then probably we can have governments
46:14to tax the right things, to subsidize the right things,
46:17and only then we can have public policy in the right direction.
46:22Well, you know, I certainly, as an educator myself
46:26and as someone who is organizing a worldwide teach-in on climate injustice,
46:30that is a very well-spoken position.
46:39I agree with you that there are so many solutions that are within our grasp,
46:45and diet is obviously a huge piece of that.
46:50And engaging people in that conversation is part of what we want to do for the teach-in.
46:57And I think food is a wonderful avenue towards engaging people
47:02into their sense of relationship with the planet,
47:06because you don't have to go very far from what's on your plate
47:09to understand how you're impacting the world.
47:13For me, I wrote a book about 15 years ago
47:16called Fighting for Love in the Century of Extinction,
47:19and in some ways it kind of goes the other way,
47:22which is, what is it that motivates us to even care about the species of the world?
47:32Why is that the right thing to do?
47:35Fundamentally, it's because if you step out into the world
47:39and you just look at the sky and you touch a handful of earth,
47:46or you smell the smell coming from the bushes,
47:52that's something we don't want to lose.
47:55It's what we are losing, right?
47:57It's that connection to that world outside.
48:00And that's a big part of human purpose, I think,
48:05is protecting that world so that it will be there for our children and all beings to come.
48:12The thing there is to go out and be there with the natural aromas
48:18and just watch an animal, or if it is safe enough, just touch a small animal,
48:25or lie under the starry sky and be able to pause and meditate.
48:32You first of all need values that tell you that you do not need to be chasing success all the time.
48:38You know, think of an undergrad student.
48:41Why will he spend his nights watching the starry sky
48:47if he could rather slog for grades and ensure a better job offer?
48:52I am not saying one should not study and not secure better grades,
48:56but the thing is, do we have a culture, do we have the kind of education
49:02that incentivizes reflectiveness, meditativeness, basic spiritual values like self-inquiry,
49:12or as teachers we are all the time motivating our students and rather pressurizing them
49:21to do this, to be better, to achieve more, to have higher grades and CGPA and a better job offer
49:29and internship there and a job there and all those things.
49:33You know, if the student's success is measured by all these things,
49:37please tell me why will he just spend time sitting by the sea and doing nothing?
49:43Don't get me wrong, I am not advising that one should just sit by sea and do nothing.
49:49No, one should, one should actually.
49:52A large part of a day, one should do that every month.
49:57You know, that is a beautiful way to spend your life.
50:00We will do well together, doctor.
50:02Yes, we will.
50:03And you know, we are coming to the end of our hour and I am just so grateful to you
50:08for the work you are doing and for the perspective that you are sharing.
50:12It is not one we hear often because we are all so caught up in this race that we need to step off.
50:26So, thank you very, very much for the opportunity to talk with you today.
50:30It was a wonderful hour and I am sure we will have more such conversations in the future.
50:35Okay, good to speak with you.
50:38Great, thank you, thank you so much.