The Independent’s latest virtual event saw a powerful discussion on domestic abuse, spotlighting the vital role of women’s refuges. The panel, featuring Independent journalist Maya Oppenheim plus Refuge’s Abigail Ampofo and Denise Brown, discussed the importance of our Brick by Brick campaign, which is raising money to build a safe space for women escaping domestic abuse.The event provided insights into breaking the cycle of abuse and supporting survivors in rebuilding their lives.
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00:00Good evening everyone and welcome to the latest virtual event from The Independent.
00:04Thank you for joining tonight, we're delighted to have you with us as we delve into the critical
00:08role of women's refuges and their impact on survivors. This event supports The Independent's
00:13Brick by Brick campaign, a joint venture with domestic abuse charity Refuge, which has raised
00:18£300, £1,000 I should say, to construct a secure safe house. Now the campaign is raising funds for
00:24a second refuge to help even more women escape domestic abuse and rebuild their lives. My name
00:30is Caroline Gammill and I am assistant editor at The Independent. I'm joined tonight by an expert
00:36panel including Refuge's interim CEO Abigail Ampofo, who has worked with domestic abuse survivors
00:42for years. Abigail, who joined the charity in 2021, previously helped run the charity's refuge
00:48accommodation and its national domestic abuse helpline. Also on the panel tonight is Denise
00:54Brown, who has more than 30 years of experience in working with domestic abuse survivors.
01:00She leads up the management and development of services for Refuge, making sure the refuges they
01:05run are to the best of the standards they can be. And our final panelist is Maya Oppenheim,
01:10The Independent's woman's correspondent. Tonight Maya will bring her expertise in reporting on
01:15domestic abuse, including speaking to survivors and those whose lives have been transformed by
01:20refuges. Before we get started with the discussion, I'd like to share how you can donate to our Brick
01:26by Brick campaign. All you need to do is follow the link in the Zoom chat box. Your donations will
01:32help raise enough money to build a second safe space for women where they can escape domestic
01:37abuse, rebuild their lives and make a new future. If you prefer, you can also text BRICK to 70560
01:46to donate £15. Many readers have submitted questions ahead of time and I'm pleased to say
01:52we've incorporated as many as we can. So let's get started. Let's start with you Maya. You've
01:58been working closely with the team at Refuge on our Brick by Brick campaign. Can you provide an
02:02overview of the campaign and what we're aiming to achieve? Yeah, so it's been brilliant to work
02:07on this campaign. To sum up the campaign, the premise of the Brick by Brick campaign
02:13is simple. It was a chance for The Independent and the leading life-saving domestic abuse charity
02:19Refuge to come together. We already had a partnership so you know we were building on
02:23a relationship that we already had to raise funds for building two homes for women and children
02:29escaping abusive partners. Fantastically the campaign has beaten its initial £300,000 target
02:36by a long, long way thanks to generous donations from our committed readers and so yeah we've
02:42raised as much as £520,000 and plans for a second home are already underway. But yeah,
02:49sadly the context and the impetus for the campaign is both a bleak and a distressing one. This
02:56country has long been facing a chronic national shortage of refuges, so this means a woman
03:02desperate to escape her abuser is turned away from a refuge every two hours across the country.
03:09But yeah, what is a refuge? These are places which are so shrouded by secrecy and this means that
03:15many around the country simply don't know what they are. So refuges are effectively domestic
03:21abuse safe houses and they house many women who are sadly at risk of being murdered if they remain
03:27at home with their abuser. So they're in secret locations and they have strict security measures.
03:34So the house at the Independent and Refuge building will be the first of its kind to be built
03:39specifically for survivors of domestic abuse and these survivors are going to receive direct
03:45support from Refuge. So yeah, it's not only about bricks and mortar. During a family stay,
03:51Refuge staff will provide emotional support, legal advice, they will support women with safety
03:57planning, budgeting, finding a safe new home, dealing with debt, applying for welfare benefits,
04:04accessing health services, finding nurseries and schools. And yeah, so just a one £15 donation
04:11can lay a brick to build this much needed shelter. And we've had some really big campaigns,
04:17sorry, big names back the campaign. We've had Dame Joanna Lumley, we've had Dame Helen Mirren,
04:23we've had Olivia Colman, Sir Patrick Stewart, Sir Keir Starmer, The Queen, Victoria Derbyshire and more.
04:31These are just some of the famous faces who are backing the campaign. And yeah, building has been
04:36going really well so far, although we are still in need of some more money to build our second home.
04:42So, but yeah, the campaign is about more than building refuges. It's also about
04:47raising awareness and shining a light on domestic abuse. This is an issue which remains routinely
04:53brushed under the carpet and overlooked. And this is despite the fact domestic abuse affects
04:59so many of us. After all, every five days in England and Wales, an average of one woman is
05:05killed by a partner or ex-partner. I think that's, you know, one element of domestic abuse that's
05:10routinely overlooked, that this is a life and death issue. And also the prevalence of this
05:16crime. One in four women will be subjected to domestic abuse in their lives in England and Wales.
05:22And someone will turn to refuge for help as often as every two minutes. So yeah, it's great to be
05:27here tonight. And thank you, Caroline. Thanks, Maya. I don't think we need to ask any more
05:32questions now. I think you've covered it all. But no, aside from all the sort of the high-profile
05:39people and various other, it's actually, isn't it more about the campaign itself? So Abigail,
05:44can you explain why a campaign like this is just so important for raising awareness about domestic abuse?
05:51Absolutely, I can. So, you know, while the Brick by Brick campaign is so valuable in growing safe
05:58accommodation, as Maya's just explained, that there is not enough provision for women across
06:04the country and women are being turned away. The campaign has provided an increased understanding
06:10of domestic abuse to a really wide range of audiences. So I think we have to remember that
06:16domestic abuse, it doesn't discriminate. It can affect anyone, irrespective of their age, their
06:23income bracket, their religion, their sexuality or their job. And we know that women are overwhelmingly
06:31the victims and survivors of domestic abuse, but it can and does affect people of different sexes
06:37and all genders. And I think that's something we can really, really never forget, just how
06:43wide-ranging domestic abuse is. And we probably all know somebody who has experienced domestic
06:49abuse, whether they have told us or not. I think that's right, isn't it? And following
06:56on from that, how in particular does the refuge itself, like the safe space, play a key part
07:01in breaking that cycle of abuse? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, refuges or safe accommodation
07:08are part of how survivors are able to move forwards and away from their abuse. They're safe,
07:14they're secure, they're confidential locations, and they provide immediate safety. But more than
07:21the safety of just bricks and mortar, they provide psychological safety, where survivors and their
07:28children can start on their road to recovery and be free from abuse. So I know for me that when I
07:34walk through my front door, it is that absolute place of safety for me. It is safe and secure.
07:40It's my home, as modest a little home it is, but it's mine, it's where me and my children
07:45are safe to be. Safe and secure accommodation is the first building block in that hierarchy of need.
07:52You cannot get much further than that if you don't have somewhere safe and secure, which is free from
07:58abuse. Yeah, and I don't think any of us who haven't been through that can really appreciate
08:04what that must be like, not having that safe space. Denise, you've obviously got
08:08on the ground experience of how refuges work. Can you just elaborate a bit more on the critical
08:13services that they provide just beyond shelter? I know Maya touched on it earlier, but I think if
08:18you could go into a bit more detail, that would really help. Yeah, certainly. I mean, it starts before
08:23the survivor even walks through the door. So before they even arrive at the refuge, they'll
08:28have a worker who will navigate them to the refuge to help them get there safely, talk to them,
08:34talk to them all the way along their journey, because very often they make very long journeys
08:38to get to our refuges because it has to be a place of safety, a confidential space for them.
08:43So it is very unlikely to be in an area where they're currently living, because that wouldn't
08:49be considered to be safe. And part of that is around things like a tech assessment. So what
08:56devices do you have? What location settings do you have on those devices? What devices do your
09:01children have? Is it potentially a tracker on your car? So all that work will start before they even
09:07arrive at the refuge so that we know when they get there, they will not be followed and they
09:11won't be tracked down. When they come through the door, our ambition is that they'll be delighted.
09:17That's the plan. We don't want anybody to walk through any of our refuge doors and
09:22regret making that really brave decision to leave an abusive partner. So we try to make the
09:30refuges as homely as is humanly possible. I mean, Abigail talked about that psychological safety.
09:36That's absolutely what we're trying to get to when we design the interiors of our refuges.
09:43He needs to feel like a home. They need to feel like they're going somewhere safe.
09:48And the worker will be there to welcome them. One of the first things they'll do is they'll
09:53show them around the building, explain how to use the appliances, how to turn the boiler on,
10:01you know, show them their room, explain things like everything we provide within the refuge in
10:07terms of bedding and towels is all new. We want people to be delighted with what we offer them
10:15when they walk through our doors. So that's kind of the starting point. And from then on,
10:20we'll do work with them around developing a safety plan so that they and their children
10:27are safe. And that will include a number of things that we've based on that,
10:31their specific risks, the specific risks that the perpetrator poses to them.
10:38But ultimately, what we're trying to do is just offer somewhere where they and their children
10:42feel safe and can be themselves again. Gives them an opportunity to come to terms with what's
10:48happened to them and also think about what they want their next steps to be on their journey.
10:55There'll be somewhere for them to talk to, who will listen, who will understand
11:01the dynamics of domestic abuse, the way it impacts on people so they can validate their
11:06feelings and provide the emotional support that's really important in our services.
11:12But also very technical support around how to navigate some of the processes they face in
11:19terms of if they're going through the criminal justice system, for instance, or if they're
11:24looking to find new housing, if they're going, if they've got immigration and an insecure
11:30immigration status, for instance, how they can get support around that and how they can be
11:36supported through processes like the family courts that potentially they could face after fleeing
11:41domestic abuse. So there's a whole range of things we do, but it starts with offering them
11:50that home. So this campaign is so important because that's the starting block. People have
11:58to have a place of safety for which they can then rebuild their lives and move on.
12:04Yeah, it's obviously after you describing all of that, it's such a long drawn out process,
12:09isn't it? You think it might just be people fleeing and then they're safe. It's obviously
12:13so much, so much more. Much more than that. Abigail, why is it so important, do you think,
12:18to ensure easier access to a refuge or a safe space for those fleeing abuse?
12:25Sorry, I was still on mute there. If you think of yourself and leaving home and the amount of
12:36courage that it takes, once you have built up to that, because once you've left, you don't
12:43actually know where your abuser is. And that is an extremely scary position to be in. So it takes a
12:49huge amount of planning and a huge amount of courage to be able to leave. And when someone
12:56has made that decision and has put all of the blocks in place to say that I'm going to do that,
13:02to then not be able to find accommodation that can support them and accommodate them and their
13:08children is absolutely terrible. And I think, you know, Denise can probably articulate some of our
13:14staff and the work that they do to be able to help people find accommodation that can accommodate
13:21them. It does take a lot because there just isn't enough provision out there. And if somebody's
13:28having doors closed every time they're trying to open it, you are not going to keep going on.
13:35No, no, it's absolutely horrific. You're right, which is why we're doing this in the first place.
13:40Maya, turning back to you, we've obviously been running this campaign now for three months,
13:45I think it is. And in that time, we've reported on all sorts of different aspects of domestic
13:51abuse, whether it be tech, whether it be people's personal stories, whether it be difficulty in the
13:57courts, all sorts of things. What stories that you have reported on have stuck with you about
14:03the impact of refuges and how important they are? Yeah, so I've actually, yeah, been into a refuge
14:10twice in my life. That was both for Stories for the Independent, one for this campaign,
14:15and then another time before that back in 2019. I remember, yeah, it was the same refuge in Surrey.
14:21And I remember the first time I went there, I accidentally walked past as it just, you know,
14:26looks like a normal house, which is, yeah, of course, it's intentional as these places
14:31need to be as inconspicuous as possible by their very nature. So they remain secure.
14:37And the victims I've interviewed inside the actual refuge, and then the survivors I've
14:42interviewed outside of refuges, who have been helped by refuges, always talk about the transformative,
14:49life-changing power of refuges and also life-saving too. So yeah, one story stays with me.
14:56And I interviewed a mother and two sisters at this refuge in Surrey in person back in 2019.
15:03And both of the sisters had grown up in a household where their father had subjected
15:09their mother to psychological and physical abuse, horrendous, horrendous abuse. That's the thing,
15:14so many stories of domestic abuse, the abuse and the violence is just unspeakable and shocking.
15:20And I think there's a naivety within, yeah, the general public, just how common this stark,
15:28stark abuse can be. But yeah, in this case, both sisters had been exposed to domestic violence
15:34since they were born. And they'd both gone on to endure domestic abuse in their own respective
15:39relationships as adults. And obviously they were both in hiding in this refuge. And this was an
15:45example of how the cycle of domestic abuse, sadly, so often repeats itself. And one of the sisters,
15:52I remember she'd been forced to move 11 times to escape her perpetrator after being subjected to,
15:58yeah, a very long, a very, very dark and sinister campaign of abuse. This involved him regularly,
16:05physically assaulting her, confiscating her bank card and keys, locking her in the house and
16:10destroying her SIM cards in an attempt to isolate her. And yeah, both of the sisters said the refuge
16:17had massively helped them recover from their abuse. And I remember one of the sisters told me,
16:22coming to the refuge has given me peace of mind and given me myself back. I feel like I can be me
16:28again. And I remember the refuge manager at the time told me about how perhaps the horrendous
16:34abuse the two sisters had endured might have been avoided, basically, if the mother had been
16:40able to find a refuge space when the children were younger. So I just think, yeah, refuges
16:46can really turn people's lives around. And that's why this campaign is so important.
16:52Thank you for that. And I think one thing that has really struck out, or has stuck out to me as
16:58well, reading and listening to all the stories, is this idea of people who feel so trapped. And
17:04can you expand a bit more on that, Myra, about some of the people who find it is so difficult
17:10to leave? Why is it so difficult to leave? Actually, all three of you, if you want to come
17:13in here, why is it so difficult to get away? Yeah, no, I mean, this is a question that,
17:22yeah, it continues to be asked. And obviously, you know, you're asking it in a sensitive way.
17:26But sadly, you know, so often it is asked that kind of question of, you know, why didn't you
17:33leave? And it's asked in this judgmental way to victims. And it still continues to be asked. And
17:38even if it isn't asked in that overt way, it's hinted at when people speak about domestic abuse.
17:43And there are so many reasons why it's difficult to leave. And this question, you know, it woefully
17:48misunderstands the dynamics of how domestic abuse works. It also overlooks the fact that leaving an
17:54abuser is very, very dangerous. Statistics show that women are at high risk of being murdered by
17:59their ex-partner when they finally, you know, gather. And when I say finally, I don't mean that
18:04in a victim blaming way. It's just because, you know, if you look at the stats, women often,
18:09you know, they try and leave like tons of times before they actually manage to, you know. Abusers
18:16are so manipulative. So, yes, stats show that women are at high risk of being murdered by their
18:21ex-partner when they gather the courage to escape and are routinely killed in the first month or the
18:26first year after having fled. So, the main reasons that victims don't leave is that they might be too
18:32scared to leave. Abusers routinely threaten to kill their victims if they leave. And, yeah, it
18:39goes without saying that is going to make you very, very scared to leave. Also, victims might not be
18:44able to afford to flee due to suffering financial abuse. They may have been so worn down by abuse
18:50that their mental health, their self-esteem is in pieces. And also victims are often so badly
18:56manipulated that they don't even realise they are being abused. Or maybe it goes in, you know,
19:01phases where. So, I think, yeah, it's also the fact that abusers often isolate their victims
19:08from friends and family. So, victims might not have anybody to turn to. So, yeah, there's a
19:13big range of reasons why, you know, you might not leave.
19:17And, you know, I would add to that because I think Maya has really brought to the forefront
19:22some of the absolute challenges that people are dealing with. I think one of the key aspects of
19:28this campaign around widening knowledge of domestic abuse and where you can go for help
19:33is really important. Because I think if we all asked ourselves honestly, would we know how to
19:39leave? Would we know where to go? You can't go to your friends, assuming you've still got friends
19:46left after this person's been waging a campaign against you. You can't go to your family because
19:51they would know where to find you. You can't stay in your local area. So, if you're going to move,
19:57you're most likely going to have to leave your job. Your children are going to have to change
20:01their schools. Children are both a push and a pull factor. The story Maya was explaining about
20:07the sisters and with the mum, if the mum could have left, it may have made a difference for the
20:15children's lives. But equally for parents, they feel a huge amount of guilt for taking the children
20:20away from their other parent as well. Children living in the refuge, they're not having their
20:25kids around, their friends around after school for tea. It is a whole lifestyle shift. And if
20:32you haven't got somebody there to help you navigate through it, it would absolutely feel insurmountable.
20:40Thank you. But the crucial point is, and this is what I was going to ask you about,
20:44Abigail, is once you've made that step, once you've taken that incredibly brave decision
20:49to go and to find a safe space to be, you've got some insight as to what goes through the
20:56minds of women and children when they finally realise they're safe and they've got to a refuge
21:01and they're not scared anymore. Yeah, so it was a few years ago now, I was at one of the refuges,
21:08I think it was for a Christmas party, and they were expecting a new resident. So I was there
21:14in the kitchen with the other residents, the kids, we had lots of foods out, having a laugh.
21:20The doorbell rang and it was the new resident with her son. And you could see the line of sight from
21:25the kitchen to the front door. So this front door opened because she was with a worker who
21:29collected her from the station. And when I say someone practically fell through the door with
21:34relief, that is an understatement. And so the team were able to take her away to the lounge to
21:41sit down, get a cup of tea. The children's worker brought her son into the kitchen to have some
21:46cakes and some sandwiches and just start to have a bit of fun as a kid again. But the relief you
21:53could see when she came through that door was absolutely palpable. That's incredible. Abigail,
22:00moving on from that, we're now going to go to some of the questions that people have
22:05asked in the run up to this and also people who are asking on the chat now.
22:09But two people, particularly Amy Clare and Nicole, sorry, Amy Clay and Nicole Cantwell, and a few
22:14others have raised questions about how seriously the police address domestic abuse. And actually
22:20Bob Murray tonight has asked if police take as seriously mental abuse as physical abuse.
22:26But given the low conviction rates, what changes do you think are needed to improve
22:31collaboration between the police and domestic abuse charities like Refuge in order to provide
22:36better support? How can that be joined up better? Yeah, that's a really, really excellent question.
22:44And I think the fuller answer goes wider than the police and it affects the whole
22:49criminal justice system. But to keep it back centred on the police, I think over my time,
22:57I've worked with some amazing police officers, people who I felt went over and above their
23:03duties. And I have also worked with the opposite as well. And no, unfortunately,
23:11I would say the ones who went over and above were not the main ones who I saw.
23:19What could improve collaboration? So there are some things in the works. I mean, you may have
23:24heard that the government has announced that they'll be putting domestic abuse experts in 999
23:30control centres. And anyone who's worked in frontline services knows that if a domestic
23:35abuse expert can have contact with the survivor in the moment, it's more likely that they'll be
23:42able to develop that supportive relationship on the ongoing basis. And if I think back,
23:49historically, many of our community-based workers, so our IDFAs, our outreach workers,
23:55used to be co-located with the police, which really helped to develop those
24:00closer working relationships. But as the structure of the police has changed,
24:06and we've moved away from having local police stations into these much bigger
24:12borough command units that cover three London boroughs, for example, these local relationships
24:18have really been broken. And if we think about the introducing of the experts into the 999 centres,
24:28we have to ensure that they're going to be specialist experts from the independent domestic
24:33abuse sector. The other thing I would say, which is key in increasing trust and confidence in the
24:40police, that we already know the cultural issues and what has gone under the radar in the police
24:47service. There's some of the things which have been called banter, which actually has just been
24:53misogyny. So you have to ask yourself, actually, if that's what's happening in the police,
24:58why would you report as an individual? And we know that only a fifth of victims and survivors
25:04do report their abuse to the police. So something which Refuge has been calling for is that when
25:10police or police staff are accused of vogue-related offences, that they're immediately suspended
25:18pending investigation. Because actually, if that immediate action is taken, and remember that
25:23suspension is not saying that you're guilty, but it's removing you from a place where you could
25:29potentially cause more harm. And taking that swift action starts to show victims and the wider public
25:37that the police are taking violence against women and girls seriously.
25:41So zero tolerance type.
25:42Absolutely.
25:44Yeah, no, absolutely. That's very helpful. Thank you. Denise, we've been talking about
25:50different types of abuse. And some of the questions coming through are about the different
25:54types of abuse. Antoine Boyd has asked if we can describe the abuse that he's most interested in,
26:02which is a coercive control. Can you talk a bit more about this? Because it is so pernicious,
26:08but so sort of unseen.
26:12Yeah, I think everyone's familiar with the idea of domestic abuse in the context of physical,
26:17emotional, economic and sexual abuse. And I think people are getting more familiar,
26:21actually, with the idea of tech being used as a weapon against women. So I think those areas
26:31feel as if they're quite well known. Coercive control is slightly different because it is
26:35less visible to people, and very often can be misunderstood as somebody actually being very
26:42caring. So I think some of the things that I would look out for in terms of coercive control,
26:52which is intended to isolate women from their support networks and make them more reliant on
26:57abusers, are things like people who have been prevented from doing things you would ordinarily
27:03do in your everyday life. So it may be that the abuser prevents a woman from going to work and
27:10being economically able to support herself. It may be things like preventing someone attending
27:18education. So a child going to school or an adult going to college or university.
27:24Certainly taking control of someone's money. And all these things could be perceived in some ways
27:29as a care, it's something caring. So not wanting someone to have the stress of, you know, dealing
27:34with debts and the bills and things. But actually, it's about controlling the money and not letting
27:39them have access to it. Stopping them seeing their family and friends. And that can be done
27:44in a variety of ways that can be very subtle. It can be just that person's behaviour when they're
27:50in the presence of family friends. It's quite difficult that they come across as kind of
27:54unfriendly or angry. Or it could be that they kind of criticise family members, say things
28:03that just make the survivor feel, well, actually, maybe I won't put my friend in that position. I
28:10won't go visit them. I won't invite them to my house. And that contact kind of lessens and lessens
28:16over a period of time. It can be things like withholding food, can be things like withholding
28:23medication or toiletries, sanitary products, for instance, from an individual. It can be around
28:30monitoring people's social media accounts or contributing to people's social media
28:37feeds in a way that makes the survivor not want to continue kind of having those accounts. It can be
28:44things like telling them what to wear. And again, that can be perceived as them being supportive,
28:50or that doesn't suit you. I prefer it when you wear these types of clothes or being critical
28:56when they wear something that the abuser might not approve of. But it's also things like threats.
29:02So it can be things like threatening vans to them, threatening vans to their family members,
29:09particular issues around threatening pets. People get very attached to their pets.
29:14And abusers can very often use pets, again, as a weapon against the survivor. And generally,
29:21those threats are about if you do not behave in a certain way, if you don't wear certain
29:25clothing, if you don't provide certain types of food, if you if you have contact with your family,
29:30then I will do these things to your, you know, your family member, or I will do something to the dog.
29:40So like that is so sort of pernicious, isn't it? It's so sort of subtle, but it's stabilizing.
29:46Maya, again, you've spoken to all sorts of women and people who have been sharing their very,
29:52very powerful stories. And we found, I know you found and certainly we've discussed this,
29:58it's been incredibly difficult for many people to pluck up the courage to tell their stories,
30:03let alone to, you know, make the step to leave. From your perspective, what sort of misconceptions
30:10in society make it difficult for women to look and address the issue of domestic abuse?
30:18Yeah, that's a great question. So thank you. Sadly, there are many, many misconceptions
30:24about domestic abuse. And also this kind of historical ignorance about domestic abuse,
30:30that almost enables these misconceptions to continue. So some of the main misconceptions
30:36would be people wrongly assuming it is a crime of frenzied romantic passion,
30:42wrongly believing only those who are already vulnerable can fall prey to abusers.
30:48In reality, like you've said, Abigail, domestic abuse transcends class, age, race, sexuality,
30:55migration status, and disability. And another key misconception would be that people thinking that
31:02domestic abuse is a private matter thinking, oh, don't, you know, air your dirty laundry in public,
31:09and it should remain behind closed doors. And you know, it isn't other people's business.
31:13I've seen, you know, you hear that a lot still, then there is the commonly held misconception
31:18that women routinely fabricate domestic abuse allegations. And also the misconception that
31:24domestic abuse is, you know, it's just six of one, half a dozen of the other. And that domestic
31:30abuse is essentially just a synonym for toxic dysfunctional relationship. And this essentially
31:37misunderstands how domestic abuse works. In reality, it's all about power, it's all about
31:42control. And ultimately, it's all about the abuser, it's all about the perpetrator. And the most inane
31:48innocuous thing can make a perpetrator lose their temper. And so yeah, many people think, oh, you
31:55know, what did she do to provoke him? And that kind of approach? Yeah, misunderstands the crime.
32:01Yeah, and it becomes a very much an issue of he said, she said, doesn't it? And, and I know, in
32:06some of the reporting that we've done, it's been very difficult, because there hasn't been a
32:09conviction. And so you're limited by the law, as to what we can say. And I know that we have found
32:15that frustrating as reporters, let alone, you know, people who are actually going through this
32:19through the situation. Abigail, we've got an interesting question from Victoria Simmons,
32:24and actually a few people on the chat have also asked about this. Why do women who are fleeing
32:29domestic abuse often find themselves in temporary accommodation that doesn't meet their needs?
32:33Do you think enough is being done to address the impact on their mental health,
32:38family dynamics, and obviously that sometimes that very difficult decision to give up your pet?
32:44Yeah, I mean, this, this is a this is a brilliant question. So I think I'll start and then maybe
32:49hand over to Denise on this. If we think about temporary accommodation, it's often it's often
32:54poor, full stop, I could give examples of women who are survivors of domestic abuse,
33:01sexual violence and sexual exploitation, who have been forced to share mixed sex accommodation,
33:08if they want any type of housing. Why does this happen? I mean, I think one is availability of
33:14temporary accommodation. There's not equal provision across the country. And the times
33:21where women are in the position where they have to choose inadequate, potentially mixed sex
33:25accommodation, including with their children, or they have to relocate hundreds of miles away,
33:31which comes with its other challenges. There's another issue, I think, of knowledge and
33:36understanding. Housing officers and other professionals also have the resource challenges
33:42that organisations like Refuge do. But that's coupled with a lack of knowledge of domestic
33:49abuse and sexual violence. What they see in front of them is a homeless person. And at best, that
33:56housing officer will have some understanding of domestic abuse. But at worst, they won't
34:02understand domestic abuse. And they will also not understand housing legislation. And that a woman
34:08experiencing domestic abuse who's needed to leave her home is owed a homelessness duty, which is why
34:14it's incredibly important that survivors can access advocacy and support when navigating
34:22the systems with professionals. The question about pets and mental health support is really
34:29interesting. But I'll leave Denise just to talk a little bit more about that.
34:37I think that was beautifully answered, Abigail. So there's not a great deal I can add to it.
34:44In terms of mental health support, the homeless accommodation provided by local authorities is
34:52not designed for survivors of domestic abuse. Very often, they're left without any of the
35:00specialist support they need, unless they get advice from an excellent housing officer who can
35:07signpost them into really great services. So the difference between that kind of temporary
35:13accommodation and what we offer is that there is that specialist support on site. So they don't
35:19need to go seek it from anywhere. It's already available to them. And we talked to survivors
35:25about the range of services and support we can offer them. And survivors then choose what it is
35:31that they need from our service. So that may be, you know, accessing specialist psychological
35:38services, maybe just very practical things around registering with a GP and a dentist,
35:45but it's there available to them on site. And it's done through the lens of workers who
35:51understand the individual's rights, which is why kind of the general needs homelessness
35:58accommodation is never really going to meet the needs of survivors of domestic abuse,
36:03because what they need is a much more holistic service. Interesting about the pets. I mean,
36:08it's one of my areas of one of my big passions are pets in terms of their assistance in healing
36:16people's recovery. And certainly the services that we're developing and the intention of
36:25this campaign is that we're able to offer the types of accommodation where survivors can take
36:31their pets with them. And, and that's quite a big step forward, the vast majority,
36:3999% of refuge provision that's currently available to people does not allow survivors to take their
36:47pets with them very often it's shared environment, it's not suitable for for pets. And so this this
36:55campaign will enable us to offer accommodation to survivors who otherwise may not flee if they can't
37:02take their pets along. So I think it's great that it's acknowledged that the pets make a big
37:07difference to people's well being. No, definitely. And I think these both these houses will, as you
37:12say, include pets. And they'll also include people who have older children. Because I know, talking
37:19to you both, there's been that there's been problems sometimes when people have teenage
37:22children, or even teenage sons, who may not be comfortable, it might not be appropriate for them
37:27to to end up in a in a refuge. An interesting question from someone who wants to remain
37:32anonymous in the refuges, because obviously, the two houses the independent is building are for
37:38family, a family, an individual family. But obviously, you do bigger refuges, is there a
37:44capacity for homeschooling in in a refuge advocate?
37:51And so homeschooling is a valid educational choice.
37:57But what we wouldn't expect is that a mom homeschools because she can't access schooling
38:04for her children. So one of the things that we do at refuge is provide children's workers,
38:10and those children's workers work with moms to be able to navigate things like health visitors,
38:17nursery, and access to schools. So yes, you can homeschool in the refuge, but it needs to be your
38:24choice rather than you feeling you are forced into that situation. Right, you've got you've
38:29got no choice. Yeah. Okay, thank you. And Olivia King, this is probably one for everyone has asked,
38:37what advice would you give to those supporting survivors who, due to fear or shame, have not
38:44gone out, not reached out for support and are struggling as a result? Denise, is that one that
38:50you could tackle? That's really difficult. My my advice would be to be a listening ear for that
39:03individual to give them the opportunity to talk about their experience without judgment
39:11and believe in them, but also encouraging where it's appropriate for them to reach out to specialist
39:19support. And there are ways of doing that where you can remain anonymous. You don't have to
39:26share your personal details. So the National Domestic Abuse Helpline is there for every
39:31survivor. It's confidential. It's a free service. People can either access it through
39:41email or there's a chat bot or there's a telephone line if people prefer to talk. You share what
39:47information you want to share. You don't have to provide your names or your name or any personal
39:53details, but you can still access support and advice and information about local services to
40:00you. So it's a national service and it will signpost you to other specialist agencies in
40:06your area who can offer that type of support. But I think my first my first point would be
40:13be an ally to that individual and listening listening ear and offer support without judgment.
40:20Great, thank you, Maya. You put your hand up school school style.
40:24No, that's really helpful. Thank you so much, Denise. Well, firstly, I'd say you can't force
40:29anyone into therapy. And if you do, it's likely the therapy is not going to be very helpful.
40:34You know, if you don't genuinely want to be in therapy and you don't do the hard reflective work
40:39that therapy involves, it kind of defeats the point. But also, how would you encourage someone?
40:44I guess it's about gently trying to persuade someone laying out just how traumatic the
40:50experience of domestic abuse is, you know, and that's not unique to them. That's, you know,
40:56a lot of these abusers are clones of each other. So, yeah, it's about doing this, obviously,
41:01in a trauma informed way, a nonjudgmental way. Domestic abuse survivors often experience post
41:07traumatic stress disorder in the aftermath. So I guess it's just important to emphasize
41:12just how much therapy will be able to help them recover and heal.
41:16No, I think that's really right, isn't it? And I probably interpreted this question in a
41:20slightly different way. So I'm going to give a slightly different answer. And if it's if it was
41:25not relevant, so be it. But I think if you're a professional working in the space and you are
41:31supporting survivors and you feel that you can't reach out for therapeutic support,
41:38I would absolutely urge and encourage you to do so. There is no shame whatsoever
41:45in accessing support. If you're working for an organization, access clinical supervision.
41:51If it is not provided, you need to go and ask for it. There is a reason why they say,
41:56put your own oxygen mask on first, because you will risk burning out if you are not accessing
42:03things which are there to support your well-being. So please, please do it.
42:07Thanks, Abigail. I think that's really, really important. And the next question we've had
42:12actually has also come up on on the live chat as well as in the in the pre-chat, pre-questions.
42:18It's from Leslie Cunningham. He says, what is the most useful thing that I, as a man,
42:23can do to tackle the shocking amount of violence against women and girls in Britain and worldwide?
42:28And I think, you know, it's all very, you know, we focus so much, obviously, on women and the
42:33children. But, you know, men play a huge part for good in this situation as well. So, Abigail,
42:38maybe you've got some thoughts. Oh, you should never start with me because I would definitely
42:43say something controversial. Look, if every man just committed to not being abusive, we would
42:52pretty much cease domestic abuse overnight, right? But to be less flippant than that,
43:00if we think back to May 2020, there was something which happened which
43:07really helped some people change how racism was understood. And there was a commitment in some
43:14areas to recognise that being non-racist wasn't enough. And if you want to root out and eradicate
43:21racism, you need to be anti-racist, which is being proactive rather than reactive.
43:28And in my view, I think a similar approach needs to happen with violence against women and girls.
43:33So, it's not sufficient for a man to say, I'm not abusive, but they need to become proactive.
43:40They need to learn about misogyny and the impact that it has. What can you do in your slice of the
43:46world to make a difference? So, look at your organisation's gender pay gap. What does it say?
43:51Are you seeing things there which are showing, actually, that women are not having the advantages
43:56as men in your organisation? Ask questions about it. Ask how it's being addressed.
44:01Understand and challenge stereotypes. Raise your children to understand consent and equality.
44:08Understand what male privilege means. Often when people say privilege, there's quite a defensive
44:14mechanism to it. We all have privilege in different ways most of the time. It just is.
44:19But learn what it means and actually how you can use your own privilege to make a difference
44:26and share power with other people. Take your paternity leave and advocate for men in your
44:31organisation to do the same and have flexible working. Don't keep buying into these stereotypes
44:37of what women do and what men do. Shout loud when you're looking after your children.
44:44Violence against women and girls is rooted in misogyny. And so, what we have to do,
44:49and really what men, you can do, is use your privilege to start really pushing and addressing
44:55misogyny and stereotypes. Brilliant. I think we need that as a sort of 10-point plan.
45:01Sounds fantastic. Thank you, Abigail. Maya? Yeah, thank you, Abigail. Yeah, God, no, it's just,
45:08it's a good question. So, thank you also, Leslie Cunningham. So, yeah, I would say stand up to your
45:14male friends and your colleagues. Hold them to account when you hear them making misogynistic
45:18comments like Abigail says, you know, misogyny and domestic abuse go hand in hand. Look out for
45:25your women friends as a man. Some of them may be experiencing domestic abuse right under your nose.
45:31Keep tabs on your male friends as some of them may be perpetrating domestic abuse behind closed
45:36doors. You know, it's so hard to know what's really going on in relationships. You know,
45:41they're couples that people think are really happy and then, you know, they're staggered to find out
45:46the reality of the situation. I guess it's also about, you know, realising there are real parallels
45:51between abusers, whether that's an inability to take responsibility for your behaviour,
45:57never apologising, always thinking you are the victim, you know, perennially victimising yourself,
46:03having an immensely fragile ego, you know, look out for these traits among male friends. There are,
46:08you know, there are red flags that abusers display and that's not just to their victims,
46:13they're to other people. And also don't victim blame women, you know, victim blaming attitudes
46:18are so rife, you know, people who think if you don't report domestic abuse to the police,
46:22it didn't happen, or if you didn't report it at the time, it didn't happen. So yeah,
46:27challenge these views rather than perpetuating them.
46:31Thank you, Maya. Denise, do you want to add any more?
46:37I couldn't have more. That was amazing.
46:40All right, I think we've given enough tips on that. We've had a very timely question.
46:46And I think this is probably for Denise and Abigail, but Maya, feel free. Does domestic abuse
46:52increase over the festive break? Obviously, we're in the run up to Christmas now.
46:58So if I think to the data we have from the helpline, you see actually calls and contacts
47:08decrease over the Christmas holiday, and they ramp right up again in that second week of January.
47:15So I don't think we could extrapolate from that that abuse decreases over Christmas. I think,
47:20you know, a reasonable assumption is that people are prepared to make concessions over that holiday
47:28period. You've got the kids out of school, you're trying to have that good Christmas,
47:33but you might want to make different choices for your life in the new year.
47:39Yeah, that's interesting. Denise, again, that your experience too?
47:46We do not have an increase in calls over Christmas to the National Domestic Abuse Helpline, but
47:51my thoughts on this is very often it's around people's access to services. So if your abuser
47:58usually works and is off over Christmas, you're not going to be in a position to contact services
48:04for support. So I don't necessarily think it increases. I think domestic abuse happens
48:12constantly, all the time. I think sometimes people will use certain things as an excuse.
48:21So for instance, people may say, well, the violence increases because he drinks more
48:27alcohol over Christmas, or is upset because they didn't win the football. But actually,
48:32the reality is those are just excuses for doing what people are going to do anyway in terms of
48:38abusing their partner. So I don't think it increases over Christmas, but I do think there's
48:45less of an opportunity for people who are experiencing domestic abuse to be able to
48:50access support services because they have less time alone to be able to call the number or have the
48:58chance. Thank you. That's very helpful. Thanks. This is also from someone who's
49:05just sent this message in today. Do you often see older female victims of domestic abuse
49:10fleeing to refuges? And if so, how are those refuges tailored to meet their needs?
49:18We often think it's for younger people with younger children, but that's not
49:22obviously always the case. Denise, have you come across that in your experience?
49:26We do. We do have older women access our services, but I have to say smaller numbers.
49:34And the reasoning behind that is, I think it's hard to be absolutely sure without doing some
49:41proper research around it. But it could well be that older women are more likely perhaps to have
49:51their perpetrator as a carer. So maybe more reliant on their perpetrator. It could be about
50:04older people being less inclined to acknowledge that it's domestic abuse and be more willing to
50:11feel they need to stay with the perpetrator. Or it may well be just that a lack of understanding
50:18about what a refuge might be able to offer them. Maybe they feel it's less suited to
50:25an older person. But certainly we do get older women coming into our services and we do offer
50:32a tailored support package to them. But it's very small numbers.
50:38Maya, one thing that's arisen is this issue of the support from your family. And I know that
50:44obviously you've dealt, you know, you've spoken to a lot of people who either felt too scared to
50:48talk to their family or have found their family to be to be the lifeline. How can the family
50:55come in in such a situation to provide that support? Yeah, that's a really good question.
51:00And it is such a tricky one. And it's such a minefield. And I have seen in situations
51:05in my personal life, even, you know, not with me, but with friends, how sometimes when the family
51:10come down too hard, then it drives the victim closer to the perpetrator. So it's very much,
51:16you know, you're walking on eggshells, you know, not in the same way that victims are walking on
51:20eggshells with their perpetrators, but it can be hard to kind of strike a balance between like
51:26protecting them. And then also, ultimately, it is up to the victim, it's up to the survivor to
51:32flee. And you can't force anyone to. And you know, victims so often go back to their perpetrator.
51:40So what can family do? I guess it's just about supporting them in a non judgmental way. And I
51:46think about, you know, using services like refuge, losing like professionals, not trying to force
51:54them to report to the police if they don't want to. So it's just I think about treading very,
51:59very carefully. And you know, sometimes if you kind of but yeah, it's hard. It's very hard,
52:06I think, because families don't want to let abusers into the family kind of into the family
52:11nest, if you like. So they're very much between a rock and a hard place. But I guess it's just
52:16about always being there for the survivor, and trying to get an understanding of domestic abuse,
52:22and what a kind of insidious and complex crime this is. And, you know, being there for them in
52:28a consistent way and not judging them if they do go back to them and, you know, not cutting off
52:33their support. Thank you. Well, there's been a flood of questions, which is brilliant, but we
52:39are running out of time. I think we've got time for one more, which is again, one for everyone,
52:44please. What are your hopes and for outcomes of campaigns like brick by brick, and this event,
52:50and you know, all the other campaigning that refuge does, Abigail?
52:56Thanks, I think for me, it's around increasing knowledge of domestic abuse. I think we've spoke
53:03on already, haven't we, that there isn't a typical victim, it is so wide ranging, and so many people
53:11can be impacted and affected. And to challenge some of that stigma and break down the barriers,
53:18the campaign events like this, the conversations that attendees have with friends, family,
53:25colleagues, after these events, starts pushing that message out there. And that is, if we want
53:32to make a difference, we have to make sure that people who need support know where to come and get
53:38it. Fantastic. Thank you, Denise.
53:45Set aside, there've been additional places of safety for survivors, so more people have access
53:50to that support. For me, it's about those survivors who are out there, who maybe hadn't
53:58started to contemplate that what they were experiencing was domestic abuse. I think there's
54:05been some amazing information shared, that will that will kind of resonate with many women and
54:13make them start to contemplate whether or not this this experience that they're having is domestic
54:21abuse, and whether they might actually have some opportunities, some alternative ways of living,
54:29and there are services out there that they can access. Maya was talking earlier on that people
54:35very often don't recognise that they're being subjected to abuse. And I think this will be very
54:42thought provoking for many survivors, and perhaps help them make that first step to getting support.
54:48Thank you. And Maya?
54:51Yeah, no, I totally agree, Denise, like it's quite a simple thing in a way, you know, someone can read
54:56a story about domestic abuse and be able to relate to it. And you know, we've got the refuge helpline
55:01at the bottom, and they just, you know, choose to seek support. So yeah, it's been brilliant to be
55:07involved in the Brick by Brick campaign. And it feels like it's been a massive success in terms
55:11of the money we've raised, the awareness we've raised. And yeah, domestic abuse is an issue I've
55:16written a lot about as women's correspondent. And I think actually, yeah, to end on a positive note,
55:22it feels like domestic abuse has massively shot up the political agenda. That was also a silver
55:27lining of the pandemic, you know, obviously, it was horrific how much domestic abuse rose during
55:33lockdown measures as everyone was trapped at home. And, you know, like we were saying before,
55:38with Christmas, Christmas doesn't create domestic abuse, and nor does lockdown, it can just
55:43exacerbate, so I can never say that word, pre-existing patterns of abuse and, you know, make pre-existing patterns worse.
55:50So I think, yeah, as that happened, also awareness of domestic abuse has gone up and the Brick by Brick campaign,
55:58you know, has only helped this. And it's also helped to correct misconceptions about domestic abuse.
56:03And then it's also the tangible, practical help that it's providing, you know, building a safe space for women
56:09to rebuild their lives after abuse and their children too. So, yeah, I think we've definitely got a lot to celebrate tonight.
56:17Yeah, thank you. And thank you all for all your thoughts and all your questions and for the panel.
56:24And thank you everyone for joining us this evening. And, you know, it's been really helpful to have
56:29people with so much experience coming and really explaining these things in such a clear and helpful way.
56:35So thank you to you all. If you've enjoyed tonight's event and you'd like to support our campaign and the Independent,
56:41please use the link in the chat box or support the Brick by Brick campaign with a donation.
56:45We are nearly there for the second house. We really, really want to get there by Christmas.
56:50We've got the building on the first one is really going extremely well. We're really making huge progress
56:56and we're hoping to announce a big development that next week. The next virtual event for your calendar
57:02is on January the 23rd, and that will be hosted by our chief political commentator, John Rental,
57:07and who will be joined by an expert panel talking about five years of Brexit fallout.
57:12And we know how strongly independent readers feel about that. The link for tickets is also in the chat box.
57:17So make sure you grab yours in plenty of time. And thank you all very much.