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00:00Director Johan Grimmonprez, it's so wonderful to see you again.
00:11Thank you for joining us on For the Love of Docs.
00:14Thank you to invite me again, Matt.
00:17This is such an extraordinary work of synthesis of history.
00:22I just cannot really fathom how you were able to explore so many dimensions of political
00:29history, one might say music history.
00:32Can you talk about the research, extraordinary research that went into this film?
00:36Well, yeah, the research was many headed.
00:40We traced the archival stuff from many, many different sources.
00:45But the one I really like is sort of what we got from the sons and daughters of all
00:49those personalities were so pivoted in that sort of changing over in 1960s with the independence
00:55movement leading into sort of the connection to the civil rights and to what's how my country
01:00was involved in the overthrow of the democratically elected premier, Patrice Lumumba.
01:05But we had, for example, the daughter of André Blouin, Yves Blouin, who was an advisor on
01:09the film, sending us, for example, an undeveloped roll of film.
01:13And developing that, we discovered that was wonderful footage of her mom, at the time
01:18chief of protocol and speechwriter for Patrice Lumumba, the two months and a half he actually,
01:22that little time that he was premier when, when, when afterwards she was overthrown.
01:27But that intimate footage sort of splice between the bigger sort of bigger story of those political
01:34earthquakes that happened in the beginning of the 1960s, for example, the lead up of,
01:39you know, after the aftermath of that overthrow of Patrice Lumumba and Nikita Khrushchev,
01:44the then Soviet leader, inviting all world leaders to the United Nations and on his way
01:49in the Baltica ship with the Eastern Bloc leaders on his way to the General Assembly,
01:5315th General Assembly in New York, he was rewriting his speech and he said, we're going
01:57to give it to Doug, Doug Hummerskjold, the then Secretary General.
02:01And he invited all world leaders, you name it, it was the maiden speech of Fidel Castro,
02:06Abdel Nasser was there, Yawar Halneru, Sukarno, Kwame Nkrumah, Sukhothuri, all those non-aligned
02:12leaders were actually present for the very first time at the United Nations.
02:16And so we researched the United Nations very thoroughly from the 23rd of September 1960
02:22all the way to mid-October, and we found really some jewels.
02:26And so what I think is sort of at the cusp or the heartbeat of history is to see that
02:31intimate footage of personalities very much involved in that story, splice between how
02:38actually the world was sort of in a big, big, big, big change.
02:43And it's the moment where that independence movement is happening across Africa.
02:49And that redefines also the United Nations, the 16 African countries that are admitted
02:54to the 15th General Assembly.
02:57And they will cause a global earthquake because it's the Afro-Asian bloc that actually gains
03:01the majority vote.
03:03And the way the East and West is going to deal with that is, for example, Nikita Khrushchev
03:08will sort of play on the global South and propose a decolonization resolution during
03:12that 15th General Assembly.
03:13The United States sort of engages in black jazz ambassadors, sending black jazz ambassadors
03:19over to sort of the Afro-Asian sort of geographic area, the friction zones, actually within
03:25the hearts of the minds of the global South.
03:28But what's peculiar is with, for example, Louis Armstrong arriving in the then just
03:33newly independent Congo is that when he's arriving, he's used as a decoy to hide that
03:38actually there's a coup d'etat being plotted by the CIA underneath.
03:43What was it that the West, the United States, Belgium, other countries feared in Patrice
03:50Lumumba?
03:53It seems to have been that he was a pan-Africanist and he represented, for one thing, he couldn't
03:58be controlled.
03:59And he also represented this threat of the United States of Africa coming together.
04:03Well, I didn't know about that whole story as well, but it's Kwame Nkrumah who was a
04:08bit the advisor to Patrice Lumumba when he arrived in Accra with the first all-African
04:13conference that happened in Accra, the capital of Ghana.
04:17And it's Kwame Nkrumah who initiated the United States of Africa together with Secretary,
04:22the then president, the first president of Guinea.
04:25And then Mali joined.
04:26And he also asked actually Patrice Lumumba if the Congo would join, and even making,
04:31you know, Leopoldville, the capital of the United States of Africa, to come, right?
04:35Because it was already a union.
04:37And they wanted to sort of, you know, have the cause of all of independence over Africa.
04:44But it's precisely that that actually was not allowed, you know, they labeled, the Belgian
04:48labeled Patrice Lumumba as a communist to get the United States on their side.
04:53But the film starts with the fact, with Patrice Lumumba saying, I'm not a communist, I'm actually
04:58an African, I'm a nationalist.
04:59I'm actually coming up for, to choose the destiny of my own country.
05:04And so that's what's actually is, the problem is that, and it's also what Malcolm X at the
05:10end of the film alludes to, that, you know, it's not communism or socialism, Marxism they're
05:14afraid of.
05:15It's actually people choosing their own destiny for being a patriot, for being a nationalist
05:20and choosing sort of that also the people of your own country can benefit from the riches.
05:26There's so much to be shocked about.
05:28What is most shocking to you?
05:30Talking about the complicity of the United Nations, but also the then Secretary General.
05:35And of course, there's maybe a complex story that is sketched in the film.
05:39And so we see Doc Hammerskjöld being introduced during the Suez Crisis.
05:45And it's true, he was, he was admirable, his position and his role within sort of the,
05:50what he would call as a shuttle, he was called the shuttle diplomat, but as a sign of diplomacy,
05:55like talking to all the leaders in the Middle East, he was able to actually really sort
05:59of push that forward where he was for the first time installing a peace corps and keeping
06:04the peace in the Middle East.
06:05We talk in 1956, he was also very important in the release of the US prisoners in China
06:12at that time.
06:14And against Foster Durrell's advice, he went to China and was able to release those prisoners.
06:19So he had sort of a sense of diplomacy that was quite remarkable and very admirable.
06:25But when it comes to the United Nations concomitant, something went really wrong.
06:31And he actually had his back against the wall.
06:35You know, the US, United States and UK were threatening to withdraw the funding of UN
06:41concomitant.
06:42And at the same time, on the other hand, Abdel Nasser and Kwame Nkrumah, who actually had
06:48sort of put at the disposal of the concomitant, the troops, they were trying to withdraw their
06:54troops.
06:54So he was between two fires.
06:56And so he knew that if the troops were withdrawn, but also the US and UK withdraw their money,
07:03that Congo mission would fail.
07:05And if that would fail, the United Nations would fail.
07:07It was the biggest mission ever.
07:09And so he was in a conundrum, you know, and then researching further, knowing that the
07:16arm twisters on international territory of the United Nations were buying up votes in
07:22such a way even where they pushed forward the Kassavubu.
07:25Kassavubu was the then president who sacked Patrice Lumumba on 5th of September.
07:30And then 45 minutes later on the radio, Patrice Lumumba was sacking Kassavubu.
07:34And there was this whole thing going on on the radio.
07:36And then United Nations took over the radio and also the airport.
07:39So he could not ask for help from Stanleyville, his sort of his allies that could make it
07:44to Leopoldville.
07:46And in essence, that was actually sort of tampering with sort of the sort of
07:53sort of siding really with Kassavubu.
07:56And then within the United Nations during the 15th General Assembly, the arm twisters
08:01and the United States were able to sort of push the vote that actually Kassavubu was
08:05appointed the delegation.
08:06Because you had all these world leaders for the very first time speaking at the United
08:10Nation upon invitation by Nikita Khrushchev.
08:12But the big absentee was Patrice Lumumba.
08:15And so all these things for me, you know, when you see the machinations and then that
08:19happened in a very legal way on international territory was for me like for me an eye opener.
08:26How were you able to edit the film in the sense that it's such it's visually complex.
08:32It's an incredible weaving together of archive.
08:35And we have the text on screen, the citations.
08:39We know exactly where the information is coming from.
08:41But you're also cutting to music in a way that is quite incredible and weaving all of
08:49this music together.
08:50Max Roach of Abbey Lincoln, of Dizzy Gillespie, of Louis Armstrong, Art Blakey.
08:57It's incredible what you've achieved there.
08:59Well, yeah, literally the film opens with the salvo, drum salvo of Max Roach and ends
09:05with the scream of Abbey Lincoln.
09:07But researching that period, I could not but sort of make music as a protagonist of this
09:12film.
09:13You know, for me, the music was very much a political agent, historical agent in that
09:17whole story.
09:17We already mentioned the black jazz investors that were sent as a decoy.
09:21Louis Armstrong arrived in third week of October and third week of November.
09:25He went twice, literally when they put the assassination of Patrice Lumumba.
09:29But again, it's musicians amongst Abbey Lincoln with a woman's writer coalition in Harlem,
09:35Maya Angelou, Rosa Guy, you name it, who initiated that protest at the Security Council.
09:41They literally crashed the Security Council where they got tickets from the Cuban delegation.
09:45Sixty protesters were standing up when Ian Stevenson, the U.S. ambassador to the United
09:50Nations, announced in his maiden speech that Patrice Lumumba was being killed.
09:54They all stand up and started screaming.
09:57It's musicians that actually initiated and lit that protest.
10:00And a lot of people call it the opening salvo of the black militant movement.
10:04And we could not but sort of take music on board as one of the biggest sort of lead into
10:11that sort of history and as a big narrator.
10:15And so the way we edited it was if, say, music steps onto the political stage, then it would
10:20be sort of the politicians who become lead singers or sort of the lead tunes to the jazz
10:25composition.
10:26That's the way we sort of conceived the editing of it.
10:29It's dazzling.
10:31The film has been nominated for several Critics' Choice Documentary Awards, just nominated
10:37for the Gotham Awards.
10:39It's won many, many prizes around the world.
10:44So congratulations on that.
10:45I'm curious, in the time we have remaining, of what the reception has been in Belgium
10:51or reaction to it, if it has been seen there or what you anticipate, if it hasn't been
10:56seen there yet.
10:57Well, it was released and the press was with acclaim.
11:03It was very well received.
11:05I'm just, you know, I know I'm going to get grilled still because it's going to go on
11:10national television.
11:12We still have sort of a couple of dinosaur colonials that sort of, well, they're still
11:20around and they're still celebrating that moment when the paratroopers came down in
11:24Stanleyville to release the white hostages.
11:27But then at the same time, there was a genocide happening where they hired mercenaries to
11:31sort of smash down the Lumu Bist movement in East Congo.
11:35And so that is still celebrated, but it's so off in a way, if you look back at history,
11:40that sort of something is still, you know, not sort of being told.
11:45Of course, we have red balloons being thrown at Leopold II statue in Brussels, but I think
11:49it's something much deeper.
11:50You know, the whole city of Brussels is built with rubber money.
11:54I think that has seeped into Belgian soul, but it is not talked about.
11:57And I think that I think might still cause a little bit of an earthquake is very much
12:02sort of causing a bit of an articulation in Belgium.
12:06It's something that is so needed.
12:08But, you know, it's still, you know, even with the commission, there was a parliamentary
12:12commission into the murder of Patrice Lumumba.
12:15Even there, it was not fully acknowledged.
12:17The complicity of Belgium that was admitted, but it was not fully sort of admitted as a
12:22crime because still even the Lumumba fund has not been paid.
12:26You know, there was a promise of paying the Lumumba families not being paid.
12:29So still, there's something still unresolved, even if it's talked about, it's sort of unresolved
12:35and a story that actually should be told in Belgium.
12:39But I'm still waiting for some heavy winds.
12:43Well, it's a story of great relevance around the world, certainly to the United States
12:49and a lot for Americans to reckon with in their history, history, their role in this,
12:56and that it's a story that's ongoing where we see it was first it was rubber and uranium.
13:02Now it's other minerals, copper, lithium.
13:05So this is a story that continues into the future.
13:09Johan, it's been such a pleasure and privilege to speak with you about Soundtrack to A coup
13:15d'etat, such an amazing film.
13:17Thank you for being with us on For the Love of Docs.
13:21Thank you for offering the platform.
13:23Thank you so much.
13:25Of course.
13:25It's our privilege.
13:28Come back next week.
13:29We're going to have another film in our For the Love of Docs screening series
13:33presented by National Geographic Documentary Films.
13:36We'll see you then.