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00:00 I now have a remarkable, inspiring film from National Geographic documentary films, "Bobby
00:11 Wine, the People's President," directed by Moses Boyou and Christopher Sharp.
00:16 And we are joined now by co-director Christopher Sharp and the two protagonists of the film,
00:22 Bobby Wine and his beautiful wife, Barbie Shaglanyi.
00:28 Thanks for being with us.
00:30 Thank you for having us.
00:32 Thank you.
00:33 This film tells your beautiful love story, Bobby and Barbie, and also Bobby's rise from
00:40 a pop star in his native Uganda to becoming a political force in his country.
00:47 In 2021, he ran for president of Uganda against the country's dictator, General Yoweri Museveni,
00:55 who has been in power for 37 years.
00:58 This exposed him to great peril and, of course, to his family and Barbie as well, their kids.
01:05 Before we get into some questions, let's take a look at a clip from the film.
01:09 This is a moment where, during the campaign, Bobby, of course, you were detained on a military
01:15 base.
01:16 You were tortured.
01:18 And this scene shows your release and how you were greeted by your supporters.
01:23 Let's take a look at that.
01:25 The word was out.
01:32 Bobby Wine was being allowed home.
01:44 And a quick look to confirm it was him in the car.
02:06 He told them he would end three decades of one man's rule.
02:35 And in a country where three quarters of the population is under 35, the promise is intoxicating.
02:49 That is such a stunning moment in the scene, Bobby.
02:52 We know that you were tortured, really very, very badly injured in detention.
02:57 You were able to get up on that car, though.
03:00 What are your memories of that moment?
03:05 Memories of my abduction or memories of coming back?
03:09 No, more of the happier side of being greeted by your supporters.
03:17 It's always encouraging, motivating and humbling to see people not giving up.
03:25 I must say that my biggest motivation and my biggest courage comes from the people that
03:31 don't give up.
03:33 I must also quickly add that even though I get oppressed, I got arrested and beaten,
03:39 but those common people face even much worse.
03:43 But to see them encouraging us and not giving up is the biggest fuel that keeps us going.
03:50 Bobby, we see throughout the film the incredible bond that your husband has with the people.
03:58 Initially through his music, he was your average pop star, massively popular, but then he also
04:07 has this incredible capacity to speak to the people.
04:12 How would you describe his ability to connect with Ugandans and inspire them?
04:19 You know, a ghetto child is raised by all the women in the ghetto.
04:25 So being raised in the ghetto means that he long way back belonged to the community.
04:31 So when I found a grown up guy, I found a child of the whole village.
04:37 He already belonged to so many people.
04:40 So I just became one of the many people that he belonged to.
04:44 I gave up trying to have him all to myself and I have accepted my...
04:52 I don't want to say negative word, but yes, I have accepted that I'm sharing him with the world.
04:57 And it is one beautiful life to live.
05:01 He belongs to the people.
05:03 He is for the people.
05:05 And I am one of the people.
05:08 Well, it is a tremendous sacrifice.
05:10 There's no question about that.
05:12 Christopher, you were born in Uganda and you met Bobby and Barbie, though, in Europe.
05:18 And you were really the one kind of proposing this as a documentary.
05:25 What did you see about the story that you realized, yes, this needs to be told and shared with the world audience?
05:31 Yeah, I mean, because I was born in Uganda and my father grew up in Uganda,
05:35 obviously I had a big connection there and a sort of love for the country.
05:39 I knew what Ugandans were going through politically.
05:42 And then when I met Bobby and Barbie, I met them in Europe.
05:46 And I sat down and started hearing what they were doing, what they were giving up,
05:51 understood, you know, amazing sacrifice they were making.
05:55 And it just seemed I just couldn't get it out of my head.
05:58 And about a week later, I called up Bobby and I said, I'm going to come and see you in Uganda.
06:03 And I sat down with Bobby and Barbie and said, look, I'd really like to make a film about you.
06:09 And they certainly didn't know what they were letting themselves in for.
06:13 But they're incredibly open, willing people.
06:16 And they said, sure, go for it.
06:18 And many years later, here we are.
06:23 Many Americans, at least who are old enough, remember Idi Amin, previous dictator of Uganda,
06:31 who was a very colorful worldwide figure, the raid on Entebbe at the airport.
06:38 Probably not that many know of General Museveni.
06:42 But Bobby and Barbie, I mean, how awful is this regime?
06:47 It is murderous. They killed your driver, Bobby, in an apparent attempt to assassinate you.
06:54 This is a really brutal regime.
06:58 Well, I was born in 1982 and when General Museveni came to power in 1986, I was only four years.
07:09 And Idi Amin fell in 1978 before I was born.
07:13 However, I hear stories, stories of his brutality and stories of all the mess that went on in his rule.
07:21 I did not see them, but I can for sure tell you that I've seen the brutality of General Museveni.
07:28 And yes, I've read extensively about Idi Amin and many other dictators.
07:34 But I can authoritatively say that General Museveni's rule has been far more brutal and far more oppressive.
07:42 Why? Not that Idi Amin was endless, but Idi Amin oppressed Uganda for only eight years.
07:49 General Museveni has oppressed Ugandans for 37 years and counting.
07:54 Amin was not educated.
07:55 Museveni was a smart dictator that for a very long time has got the international community backing him.
08:08 I would like to believe that they are doing that ignorantly.
08:12 And I hope this film opens up the reality of General Museveni to the international community.
08:18 So I did not see Idi Amin's atrocities, but I'm told by my parents.
08:22 But I've lived long enough to see General Museveni's atrocities, where besides just my driver,
08:30 many innocent citizens have been massacred in cold blood.
08:34 Many people have gone missing.
08:36 They continue to go missing, just like in the days of Idi Amin, who were told of the murders and the enforced disappearances
08:46 and the state-sanctioned extrajudicial killings.
08:51 I've seen all those in my lifetime under General Museveni.
08:56 Yeah. And to add on what Bobby just said, we know that Museveni is not widely known for exactly who he is,
09:05 because he invests highly in cleansing his name, especially at the international level.
09:13 So he hires these companies which are always sanitizing everything that they do against humans
09:21 and all the human rights violations that happen.
09:24 So this never comes out until this film.
09:29 And we hope that this film goes far and wide and that the people who work with General Museveni
09:37 get to see him for who exactly he is without any filter.
09:42 And we are glad that so far this film has got a big platform and that finally all the decision makers
09:50 and the policy makers who work with him at an international level will see him for who he is.
09:56 Yes, it's certainly been seen around the world and won awards at film festivals around the world.
10:04 You just got a nomination for the IDA Documentary Awards, which is very prestigious.
10:09 So congratulations to all of you on that.
10:13 Christopher, I mean, it's so interesting to speak with Bobby and Barbie,
10:18 because I should be addressing Bobby as Mr. President and Barbie as the First Lady.
10:24 By rights, they should be in office.
10:27 This 2021 election was riddled with fraud, but maybe you can talk about that,
10:32 of how unfair it was. The people wanted Bobby in power, hence the title of the film.
10:38 Yeah, I mean, it's at the end you were left with a great sense of sadness because people go out and vote
10:45 and they genuinely hope that their vote matters.
10:49 And to be quite honest with you, it doesn't.
10:52 So, you know, we witnessed terrible, terrible vote rigging.
10:55 We had policemen stuffing black bags.
10:58 We had people signing Museveni's name on the ballot sheet and then wringing their hands
11:03 because they'd been doing it for so long.
11:05 We had, you know, there were areas where we'd film and thousands of people would come out to see Bobby.
11:12 And then Museveni's candidate would turn up.
11:15 No one would go. And then he would win 100 percent of the vote.
11:18 So it was really despicable.
11:21 What they had to do then is they had to turn off the Internet and they had to shut down the whole country.
11:27 And try and come up with an explanation to say that Museveni had won, which they obviously did.
11:34 But it was depressing.
11:36 And I think, you know, Bobby and his team knew exactly what they were going into.
11:42 But what they needed to do and what they did so successfully,
11:46 they showed that the people of Uganda are desperate for change
11:49 and they're thoroughly fed up with the government there.
11:54 I think audiences fall in love not only with Bobby and Barbie.
11:59 I certainly did. Please adopt me. Sorry.
12:04 You have such a beautiful family, lovely children.
12:08 Today you're in London, but your lives are in Uganda.
12:12 You have not left. It would have been so much easier.
12:15 You would miss home, certainly. So much easier, I think, to go into exile.
12:20 For Bobby and Barbie, why have you continued to live your lives in Uganda when it's so dangerous?
12:30 Because it's home. We don't have another home, unfortunately.
12:34 And history has shown us that no man can run from his troubles.
12:43 Those troubles are part of us. They will always find us wherever we go.
12:48 And General Museveni is so resourced, so wealthy that he can get us in any part of the world.
12:56 You have seen dictators chasing their opponents from any part of the world.
13:00 So whatever is to happen has to happen to us back home.
13:04 But most importantly, this is not about us.
13:09 It's a calling for the entire nation.
13:13 I mean, we have big extended families. It's not just me and Barbie and our four children.
13:20 We feel like all children in Uganda are our children.
13:23 Our rise was because of those common people.
13:27 They got us from the ghetto. It's their support that got us here.
13:31 And we don't have the capacity to take all our loved ones away from Uganda.
13:36 And even when we do, we'll find ourselves one day having to go back to our country.
13:42 So it's important for us to fix our country other than running away from it.
13:47 It would be a betrayal for all those less privileged people that have put their lives on the line to support and defend us because they believe in us.
13:58 So running away from the struggle would be a huge act of betrayal.
14:05 Christopher, just quickly, Bobby mentioned General Museveni's wealth.
14:11 Well, a lot of that comes from the US government, which gives him a billion dollars a year in aid, a billion dollars a year per year.
14:23 So there's culpability here, both the US and the European Union.
14:28 Yeah, I mean, that's completely right.
14:31 And, you know, we understand that the Western governments have interests which they think are being served by Museveni.
14:41 But their interests don't outweigh the fact that 44 million Ugandans are suffering under a dictatorship year after year.
14:49 And I think what makes this film so important and it's really important as many people see it as possible is there has to be no excuse for Western governments to carry on giving this money with no accountability.
15:06 Absolutely. It's a stunning film. It's poignant. It's touching. It's a love story, as I mentioned at the beginning.
15:14 It's a political thriller with very, very high stakes, not only for Uganda, but for anyone who cares about democracy and freedom of expression.
15:24 The film is Bobby Wynne, the People's President from National Geographic Documentary Films.
15:31 We have been joined by co-director Christopher Sharp and by the protagonists of the film, Bobby Wynne and his wife, Barbie Chagulanyi.
15:42 I hope I pronounced your name better this time. You got it perfectly. You got 99.9 percent now.
15:49 All right. I'm getting close. That makes me very happy.
15:53 Well, thank you all for joining us so much. Thank you very much for having us, Matt.
15:58 - Yeah. - Mad.
15:59 [BLANK_AUDIO]