Sponsored by Allegiant Stadium and, moderated by Billboard’s Jason Lipshutz, and featuring industry heavyweights like Avery McTaggart of TBA Agency, Brent Smith from Wasserman Music, David Zedeck of UTA, Jarred Arfa from IAG, as well as Kirk Sommer from WME, Ali Hedrick of Arrival Artists and Rick Roskin representing CAA. This panel is sponsored by Allegiant Stadium and a must attend session for anyone involved in talent booking. The Agency Power panel will cover all things related to artist development and representation with a focus on building superstar talent for a growing global audience.
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MusicTranscript
00:00Hey everybody, what's up? I'm Jason Lipschutz. I'm the Executive Director of Music at Billboard.
00:06I am here with some of the most key, vital, and powerful agents in the music industry.
00:13Can you guys give them a round of applause?
00:19Before we get started, I know there's a graphic to our right, but I would love to, just so
00:24everybody knows who's whom, if they don't, if you could do a quick intro starting with
00:31Avery and then kind of going through to just kind of say who you are, who you're with,
00:36and yeah, let's do a quick intro.
00:38I can do that.
00:39Thank you, man.
00:39Is this working?
00:40I think so.
00:41Great. I'm Avery McTigert, and I am the Managing Partner of TBA Agency, based here in Los Angeles.
00:47I'm Brent Smith. I work at CAA.
00:50I'm not thrilled with the drop count here.
00:59Hi, I'm Allie Hedrick. I am Owner Partner of Arrival Artists.
01:06Jared Arfa, Head of Global Music at IAG.
01:09David Zedick, Co-Head of Music at UTA.
01:12Rick Roskin, CAA.
01:15Kirk Somer, Global Co-Head of Music.
01:18Jason, thank you for hosting us.
01:20Oh, thank you guys.
01:21And Rick is actually from CAA.
01:23There you go.
01:24Brent pulling a trick on us.
01:26Well, thank you guys for doing this.
01:31And yeah, so let's just dive in.
01:33We're a little early, but there's a lot to get to, a lot of brilliant minds on this stage.
01:39This panel is titled, Agents Power Panel, A New Era of Uncertainty.
01:45But I wanted to actually start with the certainties.
01:48You know, we got about six, seven weeks left in 2024.
01:52And I wanted to see what you guys think we've learned from the touring world this year.
01:59You know, I'm curious if anyone can jump in, if something immediately comes to mind.
02:04But I'm curious, like, you know, everyone in this room is interested in the live world.
02:10We've all seen a lot of shows.
02:12We all have, you know, different trends and features and, you know, memories in our mind.
02:18But for you, yeah, what were the defining features of this year?
02:25I say, book the drop count for your next date.
02:29By the way, have you ever seen this many agents with nothing to say before?
02:38Crazy.
02:39It's just gonna be fun.
02:40Yeah.
02:42Let's go with Kirk.
02:43What's going on?
02:44I don't know.
02:44Look, we all went through a lot.
02:47COVID, the shutdown, and then the cork kind of burst.
02:50And things haven't really slowed down.
02:53I mean, ticket prices might be on par with where they were last year.
02:58You know, an all-time high.
03:00I think we've confirmed more shows and have more shows play off this year.
03:05You know, globalization, new markets.
03:08You know, I think DOO has got, you know, half a dozen shows coming up in Asia.
03:11And Coldplay in Mumbai and beyond.
03:15And, you know, getting into Africa, the Middle East.
03:18And, you know, there's a lot of ground to cover.
03:22But, you know, we haven't seen any signs of things slowing down or letting up.
03:28I think what's hot is hot.
03:29And, you know, the middle might be a little bit slower.
03:33But we've also seen new artists just explode, like, overnight.
03:37And so, you know, I think once or twice a year that would happen.
03:43We've probably seen, you know, I don't know, maybe a half a dozen happen this year.
03:47And I think it's spending time trying to thread the needle between, you know,
03:51what's right from a career perspective while not losing that moment.
03:57Like capturing that wind in the sail.
03:59So, look, I'm happy we're in this business.
04:03It's, you know, it's kind of like the gold rush.
04:06And it's, I think we all have to make hay while the sun is shining.
04:10So I would absolutely agree with everything you said.
04:13I think what's interesting is, you know, coming out of 2023,
04:16it was just explosive.
04:18And you could put anything on sale.
04:20And it was flying out the door.
04:24This year, it wasn't a correction as much as a step to get back to fundamentals.
04:29You just have to dig deeper into what we do and price a little more according to the market.
04:36Not everything is going to go like you would assume it would a year ago.
04:41And if you look at what's happening in 2025,
04:44it's set up to be another huge year for the live industry.
04:49Well, I don't, I don't, I'm always the contrarian.
04:54We definitely hit a wall this year, right?
04:56Like what Rick said was right.
04:58In 2023, literally, Jason, I could have sold you out on a tour.
05:02No disrespect, right?
05:04And, you know, I take that as a compliment.
05:06You know, I can play a little piano.
05:09Listen, this year, we hit a wall around April.
05:12And I think people love to talk about the anomalies, right?
05:16Like the top 10% is always gonna be the top 10%.
05:18It's gonna be fine, right?
05:20But I think Kirk's version of how rosy it is.
05:22Remember, he's running for agent of the year at Polestar.
05:25So he has to.
05:27Everyone in this room has been expecting this.
05:31Let's go.
05:31Let it fly, Brent.
05:32Well, listen, listen, if you haven't voted yet, or if Kirk hasn't lobbied you yet,
05:37be patient, he will.
05:39And it's really important to him and his mom.
05:41So please vote for Kirk, agent of the year.
05:45But I do think, listen, we had to get a little smarter, right?
05:50Like a little more thoughtful about who's touring.
05:53And again, not the anomalies.
05:55You know, the Chapel Rome, they're gonna just crush.
05:57And that is what it is.
05:58But we did have to be really careful, you know, once you get out of that top 10%.
06:03Because whether it was, and I know Michael just said that the experience is still on fire.
06:10And it is to some degree.
06:11But there's no question that people, you know, they came out of COVID.
06:15They had bought enough blenders.
06:17Now they wanted experiences.
06:18You know, they wanted dinners and hotels and live experiences.
06:23And that's kind of changed.
06:24Maybe the blender broke.
06:26And now they, you know, want to spend money elsewhere kind of thing.
06:28I think we need to be a little more thoughtful moving forward.
06:31That's my two cents.
06:32Jer, what do you think?
06:33When I think long term, you know, and on a macro sense, I think it's so positive.
06:39There was so much trepidation that, oh, what happens when the boomer generation is over?
06:43And those artists go away?
06:45And where are the arena and stadium tours?
06:46And we just keep seeing these new niches and genres popping up.
06:50And niches within the genres that have superstars within them that are doing arena and stadium
06:56business.
06:56And I just, I'm more with Kirk on the continued growth.
06:59And, you know, long term feels really good.
07:02I think you're also up for agent of the year, aren't you?
07:06I wasn't.
07:06I wasn't.
07:07No.
07:09I'm voting for Kirk.
07:12Thanks, Jer.
07:14Well, you know, I wanted to talk a little bit about that timing.
07:17And you guys just all touched upon it.
07:18Like, I feel like, you know, post pandemic, we had this, like Brent, like you said, everything
07:24going on sale.
07:25And now we're getting into a little bit more thoughtfulness in terms of, you know, avoiding
07:30oversaturation.
07:31And, you know, obviously minting new stars while also figuring out the middle, as Kirk
07:36put it.
07:37I'm curious, Rick, like, what do you take away from this year in terms of that kind
07:41of thoughtfulness?
07:42You know, dealing with such a huge roster and so many big names, like, what are those
07:48thoughtful tools that are continuing to be developed?
07:51Look, we, as agents, obviously have to concentrate on price.
07:58You have to concentrate on competition.
08:02You have to concentrate on how you market and how your artists are being marketed.
08:08And going with what Brent said, it's getting back to fundamentals.
08:12It was so manic coming out of COVID.
08:16And I still think the marketplace is incredibly robust.
08:21But as we kind of step forward, you have to pay attention to all the things that we were
08:27all trained for the last 30, 40 years in what we do on a day-to-day level.
08:32It's still the world of live is not going away.
08:38Look at the investment that everyone is putting into infrastructure.
08:42You know, creating, buying buildings, Jim Dolan with the sphere, Netflix with a fucking
08:47Jake Paul fight Saturday night.
08:51I mean, there's so much that is going into live that is incredibly exciting.
08:56And, you know, markets opening up, Mumbai with Coldplay or whatever it is, it's blowing
09:04up with live.
09:05How many casinos are building beautiful, spectacular venues all over the country?
09:12So for us as agents, you know, the more places there are to play, that is an opportunity
09:18for our artists.
09:19At the same time, going back to what Brent says, we just have to pay attention.
09:23You just can't throw things up and expect it to go.
09:26And with the presale is the on sale.
09:30We have to focus on every aspect of what happens in planning and execution.
09:37That's all.
09:37And that's our job.
09:39David, what do you think in terms of that thoughtfulness?
09:41I agree with what Rick is saying and Jared.
09:45There's no replacing live.
09:46You can't replace the communal experience on a one screen television or holograms and
09:52everything else.
09:53The communal experience is there, whether it be for a fight or whether it be for a concert.
09:58But there are more places to play.
10:00There are more markets open.
10:03More genres, right?
10:04As niche becomes mainstream, acts that could sell theaters or genres that would be theaters
10:08in countries are now selling arenas or stadiums, whether it be Afrobeats or K-pop.
10:13These are global genres that are growing.
10:16Christian contemporary music is now more than a one or two artists arena business.
10:21There are multiple artists that are selling in arenas.
10:24Country, we've all seen the explosion of country globally this year.
10:28Once niche becomes mainstream, there's more places to play.
10:31We need to keep, as Rick said, the fundamentals of mind.
10:33So who, what, where, when and what is really important.
10:37Yeah, one of the things I wanted to ask you guys about, we have Olivia Rodrigo on the
10:42cover of this issue and part of that story and part of me seeing her live was, oh, this
10:49is the new version of a rock show.
10:51As we kind of navigate the idea of rock stadium headliners and rock arena headliners and how
11:00that is changing a little bit.
11:03Obviously, there's still nostalgia plays, there's anniversary tours, there's things
11:06like that.
11:07But we're also seeing this kind of new generation of what a rock show used to be when I was
11:13a teenager.
11:14Jerry, what do you think?
11:16Have you seen Ghost live?
11:18Not yet.
11:18I do.
11:19I am a Ghost fan though.
11:20Listen, I mean, I don't mean to downplay the Metallicas and Linkin Parks and all of
11:27these huge bands that are playing stadiums and arenas.
11:30But are we seeing a little bit of a shift in terms of what the stadium headliner looks
11:36like?
11:37Well, I think what's happening is you're getting artists that are multi-generation.
11:39More artists now are multi-generational than ever before.
11:43So we've all talked with, whether it be Metallica or Billy or McCartney and Springsteen,
11:49ACDs, they're all 30, 40, 50 years in a career.
11:52And that's a generation.
11:53But there's grandparents, parents and kids going to those shows.
11:56And you see the same thing with the tailors of the world, right?
12:00There's 50-year-olds going, there's 30-year-olds and there's 10-year-olds going.
12:03So when you're playing a multi-generational, you have two to three times the amount of
12:06potential ticket buyers, right?
12:08And while there are 80, 70, 100 shows on a tour, most cities get one or two nights.
12:15So it becomes a Super Bowl in that city for that particular artist, right?
12:19So when you have Olivia, right, and you have the audience, right?
12:24Yeah, it's the rock show.
12:25It's a sold-out arena, right?
12:27You're thinking, your point of view is only rock bands sell arenas.
12:30Everything sells arenas.
12:32Every single genre sells arenas.
12:33No, that's a great point.
12:35And when you look at the Baby Boomer acts, those acts were coming from the 70s, 1975.
12:44Tack 35 years onto it, it's 2010, yes?
12:50And then the 90s bands are 35 years old now.
12:54So when you're looking at those people as classic rock acts, and that's Metallica and
13:00Slipknot and that's the Foo Fighters.
13:02And they may not want to say that they're a classic rock act, but after 35 years of
13:07touring, that's what they are.
13:10And I think what Dave's talking about is it's a generational shift.
13:14So it's not that they're rock or not rock.
13:16It's just you're seeing a new generation of headliners, which is also great news for our
13:22business.
13:23Well, and I think to your point, it's like when Billie Eilish was first headlining festivals,
13:28there were a lot of people that were like, well, it's a very young person for headlining
13:31festivals.
13:32A teen.
13:33Yeah, and now it's like, all right, chop around, get up there.
13:36And that's not surprising to anyone.
13:38I think if you look to the festival lineups, that evolution is now being reflected there,
13:43if not a bit, it might even be a bit of a lag in that.
13:47There does seem to be more acceptance in terms of sound and style and age.
13:52I think we've all witnessed something like Lollapalooza now incorporate K-pop headliners
13:57and stuff like that.
13:58I do see that.
13:59Are shifts like that, just generally speaking, obviously, they're a little bit glacial in
14:04terms of how they take hold of the industry.
14:09Have you found over the past 5, 10 years an increase in nimbleness in your jobs?
14:16Is it tougher now to adjust to some of these macro shifts than it was 10, 15, 20 years
14:21ago?
14:23Well, I don't think necessarily, because just one person's success over here does not
14:28mean that someone else is having a decreased success necessarily.
14:31So yes, things obviously, it goes without saying, move much quicker than they maybe
14:35were even a decade ago, but it's becoming segmented in that way.
14:42But it's about consumption.
14:45You have a 10-month-old, so your child is not consuming music yet.
14:49But when you have teenagers and kids in their 20s, they're not genre-specific.
14:55They listen to a country song as much as they listen to a K-pop song as a straight pop and
15:03rock.
15:05Going way back to what Kirk was saying, there's so much that's happening so quickly.
15:13Kids today digest it.
15:15And when we were growing up, you were into rap and that was your thing, or you were into
15:20alt-rock or heavy metal.
15:22Kids are taking everything in.
15:24So we have to be adaptive to that.
15:26But it's also, again, what creates incredible growth and opportunity.
15:30That's a great point.
15:32Al, I wanted to talk to you about the changes in the agent's role and expectations.
15:39It's been four years at Arrival.
15:44You've done a lot of amazing work.
15:45In terms of being a veteran agent and with a new organization, holistic approach, what
15:51has that evolution meant to you just in practice over the past few years?
15:56Well, we're getting involved more in putting shows on sale with marketing.
16:01All shows now have marketing attached to them from the agency side and not just going straight
16:07to the promoter.
16:09So that's a definite change.
16:13We also have branding that we're a part of, figuring out touring deals for bands that
16:21need upfront costs and helping them with that.
16:26So there has been a lot of changes, but I love it.
16:28I love being more involved in just making sure that everything is happening and flowing
16:33and going in the right direction to have a successful tour.
16:37What was it like in terms of starting during the pandemic and then watching that change
16:45and also while that role was shifting beneath you?
16:48Well, honestly, I was a little bit lucky in a way because we had a lot of time to set
16:52up the company and really think through all of the steps in a really thoughtful way.
16:58While there was no touring happening, we had a lot of time to go through and pick the best
17:03things from being at Billions, an independent agency for 21 years.
17:09I took the best things that we liked from that place and then I took the best things
17:13we liked from Paradigm and then created Arrival.
17:15So we do a profit share for all of our employees at the end of the year.
17:22That was something that we were kind of never able to get off the ground at Billions and
17:27something I'm super proud of.
17:29To me, I think the question is probably the most interesting one, which is how has our
17:34role changed?
17:35I think the relationship between the artist and the fan has changed drastically in the
17:40last 10, 15 years, right?
17:42The artist now has a direct relationship.
17:44The old music business was based on gatekeepers, territorial systems, just all of these things
17:52that...and to be honest, I mean, obviously, you could release a record, you could release
17:58a record in the US and Germany a month later, that's just the way the business worked.
18:03But now what happens is when the artist releases a song, the kid in Oslo hears the song the
18:10exact same day that the kid in Cleveland does and so on, right?
18:14And I think that what has happened is in the music business is the people in between that
18:20relationship, you've got to be careful, right?
18:23Because if you don't understand the true essence of what the artist relationship is with that
18:28fan, you're really just in the way, right?
18:30And I think the most important thing, the shift that I did, started doing like 10 years
18:36ago was to think globally, right?
18:38And the vast majority of the artists that I work with, I work with globally and I think
18:44that as an agent, if you're not thinking globally, you're leaving out a huge part of the artist
18:49business because the old system, that festival buyer in Germany, their understanding of the
18:55artist was significant to Germany or whatever.
18:59But right now, you're having these artists come up so quickly, like how could a festival
19:04buyer in Germany know the cultural importance of Baby Keem?
19:09It's not possible.
19:10And so the role of the agent to understand the true messaging and the artistry has just
19:18gone exponential with the change of that relationship.
19:21We need to read the tea leaves.
19:23I'd also add to that, you have to look at things holistically.
19:27You have to see over the dashboard, have a complete view of who the fans are, who the
19:35artist is, what's important to them, what their message is, and not to knock anyone
19:41that doesn't have full services, but we weren't sleeping in the pandemic.
19:46We had to get really good with the things that we could do, keeping people busy and
19:51working on other areas of interest.
19:55So I think Brent's correct.
19:58We talked about globalization earlier.
20:00You really have to have a point of view and a plot where you're going to be, when you're
20:05going to be there, pick what you're going to say, how you're going to say it, but you
20:09really have to understand the artist and you have to be able to be looking in all areas.
20:14Thankfully, we have a bunch of people who are specialists in different areas, so we
20:18don't have to pretend to know what we don't know because we can pick up the phone and
20:22we can call.
20:24My back is to Kirk.
20:25When he said full service, did he use bunny ears?
20:31What happens when we're making so much more money in the United States from our artists
20:37than we are in other territories?
20:39I know you're saying to book globally, but I'm finding that we're making so much more
20:45money in the United States that some artists are overtouring in the U.S. and not going
20:49to other territories because they're not able to make enough money there.
20:52So that's a definite problem that I'm coming up against.
20:58I was going to follow on Kirk's point.
21:00For someone who lived in an independent touring-only agency, it's astounding the difference
21:06it's made to have the crossover opportunities with film and TV.
21:10A lot of artists that we've signed, to be honest, we would have never been in the game
21:13with as just a touring agency.
21:17Frankly, to a lot of them, the TV, the film, the branding, that stuff is just as important
21:21as touring.
21:23I think not having that really becomes a liability specifically in certain genres.
21:29David, I was going to ask you about the music crossover division and why that's been so
21:34successful.
21:35Obviously UTA, but just in general as a concept.
21:40The job of an agency is to help guide and direct.
21:43We all talk about touring and the fundamentals and what we do in our world.
21:47As Kirk pointed out, there's experts that can help guide and direct in unscripted opportunities
21:51in acting, in brands, in podcasts, in digital.
21:55Our job, while we don't have to know how to do it, we need to have the tools around us
21:59and the people around us that can do it.
22:02And the secret sauce is finding those people that like music, that they're experts in
22:07unscripted, but they love working with musicians.
22:10They're talent agents, but they love working with musicians.
22:13They're brands people, then they want to work with musicians.
22:15When you can marry the team that loves music with their own expertise and the field they're
22:20in, it becomes successful because now they're working on these artists as their clients.
22:26As I said, for a client, the job is to guide and direct them.
22:30I've had trouble though, sorry, signing artists to an agency and then having it be,
22:36I love the music and then finding other people in the other departments not caring about
22:40that artist.
22:41I've had the most success going out and finding individual people and publishing or acting
22:50coaches or film and TV and doing it that way and having people that feel passionate about
22:55the project instead of going to the major agency, signing to that and then you're kind
23:03of ignored by all the other departments except by your agent.
23:06So I've kind of had the opposite thing happen there.
23:09I think the audience is a little smarter.
23:13When you start talking about crossing over and whatnot, listen, you're talking about
23:185% of the artist roster, right?
23:21Anybody who's selling you, we're a full service agency.
23:24You come in here, there's a magic key.
23:25You're going to have acting jobs.
23:27Sprite's going to give you $8 million, blah, blah.
23:29They're just lying to you.
23:31It's horseshit and I think we owe that to everybody here to be very honest.
23:36You're talking about the real exceptions to the rule and that's not really what this
23:40panel should be about.
23:41It should be about the norm.
23:43That's my two cents.
23:45I mean, I think if you just zoom out slightly, I think that part of the exciting moment that
23:50we're in is like there's success with artists signed to Island.
23:53There's success at AWOL.
23:55There's success with artists that are managed by Red Light.
23:57There's success with artists that are managed by someone with a Gmail.
24:01And you can go and compare and services here, services there.
24:04But at the end of the day, if you even zoom out from the agency world and look to every
24:09other kind of corner of this business, there is now success almost in equal measure happening
24:15across several different kind of formations of how to handle that part of an artist's
24:20career.
24:20And also, I think to Brent's point, business people are not stupid, but also artists aren't
24:26stupid.
24:26And they walk into meetings now.
24:27They know 10 years ago they would walk into a meeting and I would be explaining kind of
24:31what an agency does.
24:32Now they sit down and they're like, all right, what's the difference between you and Sam
24:36Kirby?
24:36Yeah, I would be more concerned.
24:38I could tell you.
24:40I would be more concerned about the agent.
24:42I mean, I would be more concerned about the agent's roster, right?
24:47Like if you're signing with an agent that has 69, maybe 70 artists that they represent,
24:52you're at McDonald's, right?
24:54That would be my focus.
24:57I'd say it like this.
24:59Our job is agents are advocates.
25:02That is what we do.
25:03We are advocates for our clients.
25:05We are in a position to improve and to help them realize their goals, ambitions, and dreams.
25:14And you can do that at an independent agency.
25:17You can do that at a larger full service agency.
25:21I think for me, I can advocate for my clients and I can offer those services that exist
25:29at my company.
25:30But at the end of the day, it does start with the individuals who you choose to work with.
25:36And if the company can answer that for you, it turns out to be a great thing.
25:41So for me, it doesn't change the job.
25:44The job is to represent, advocate, protect, and serve the artists that you work with.
25:51And they come first.
25:52I mean, we're talking about infrastructure and all the stuff and explosions and consumption.
25:57But at the end of the day, none of us are sitting up here without artists.
26:02That's a good way to put a bow on that evolution of the agent role.
26:07I wanted to ask, because this is moving quickly.
26:10See, I told you guys backstage, I'm just going to let you go.
26:13I'm sitting back here.
26:14You guys bounce off each other.
26:16I wanted to ask, though, about pricing.
26:18You guys talked about it a little bit.
26:20We're seeing ticket prices that are double what they were pre-pandemic.
26:30And I just want you guys to walk me through the industry viewpoint and your individual
26:34viewpoints in terms of, is this a huge cause for concern or in line with overall inflation
26:40and actually a sign of continued demand for these mega tours?
26:46I'm curious just to step back what you guys think about this.
26:50I think everyone needs to be pretty smart about it.
26:52I mean, everyone on the stage, we have the capability to go out and get 10, 20, 50, 100K
26:58more per show for our artists by just shoving it down the promoter's throat saying, add
27:04$10, add $20, add $40 onto this ticket price.
27:08And that's a real slippery slope down.
27:12It doesn't work.
27:13We have to be really smart about it.
27:15Think about the ticket price because you're going to have half sold rooms otherwise.
27:22I think obviously you have to price intelligently, but we're the only industry that artificially
27:28deflates the price, especially for our star artists.
27:31And I think it's a great thing that platinum and dynamic and some of these things are capturing
27:35that because or else it's really just going to the secondary market.
27:39And I think the Oasis thing in Europe was a good thing because we need to crack that
27:43where it becomes more acceptable there to the point where it is here, where it's a
27:48little bit more commonplace.
27:52Grosses are a function of ticket price and capacity.
27:55But people forget that it's expensive to tour.
27:57So some of the tickets prices going up is just an inherent and natural effect of the
28:05price of gas, the price of buses, the price of trucks, the crew, the tech, the bands,
28:10they all get paid.
28:12Representative fees, these all are things that eat away the profitability of the artist.
28:16Taxes and we buy a ticket for whatever and we're all in prices now.
28:20You don't see where those fees are.
28:22But they're building fees, they're ticket master fees or ticket fees, excuse me.
28:29Sometimes they're restoration fees.
28:30It's just monies that come out before you even get to the promoter and the artist.
28:35So the ticket price itself, when you break it down, a lot of that goes right out the
28:40door to pay bills for the artist they can get on the road.
28:43I'm having a lot of bands that are bringing film crews with them now too to capture all
28:50the content and have to bump up to two tour buses before they're really ready to.
28:54Oh, that's so interesting.
28:55Yeah, I didn't even consider that.
28:58The truth is we've been under price for far too long.
29:01I mean, everyone talks about the secondary.
29:03I sat in on the ticketing panel.
29:05We all know it.
29:06There are sensitivities.
29:08There's a lot of room to kind of grow.
29:10You have to offer something for everyone.
29:12There shouldn't be a barrier for entry.
29:14But there are people going to pay for that first class seat or that premium economy or
29:19whatever it is.
29:22That secondary market's huge.
29:24The market exists because there's demand.
29:26People are paying those prices.
29:28We have been under priced for far too long.
29:32It's how do we manage the fans' expectations, be sensitive to their sensitivities, and kind
29:39of land the plane or find a healthy place where an artist feels good about what they're
29:44charging.
29:45I don't know where Louis is, if he's in the room, but I love the slow ticketing.
29:50Taylor says, I'm going to charge.
29:51Look at what you made on the secondary.
29:52I'm going to go charge this.
29:54I loved it.
29:54Bruce Springsteen gets called out for not capping platinum or whatever it was, 5,000
29:58bucks a night.
29:59I loved it.
30:01The more people that lean into it, the more kind of flexibility we have.
30:05And we could be a little bit more thoughtful about it, but it's getting there.
30:10I think certain genres kind of dipped into it.
30:12And then there's VIP and people charge a little bit more.
30:18And where you are in your career.
30:19I mean, ultimately, if you're a young artist getting started and you're building a fan
30:24base and you're playing your first arena shows, you have to be conscientious as you
30:30go forward.
30:31If you're Aerosmith and it's your last tour, you're going to take every fucking dollar
30:35off the table.
30:36And that's just the way it is.
30:38So it kind of ebbs and flows in both the consumer and the artist and where they all sit.
30:45Listen, I think what's happened in the last five, six years with flex and platinum, it's
30:51a great thing, right?
30:52Like we are shockingly, I'm going to actually agree with Kirk on something, but I think
30:57we're actually finding what the real market is, right?
31:08And this is live nation age, you've done a really good job of figuring it out.
31:14And for the longest time, again, the aftermarket became this $8 billion business, right?
31:20Which is, to me, absolutely ridiculous.
31:23Like to me, the best example of why I think it matters is the last Drake tour, the one
31:32with Migos, right?
31:33Where average gross was $2 million a night, right?
31:36And then this previous tour, his average grosses were almost close to $5 million, right?
31:43What's important here, same venues, same capacities, played in the round both times, right?
31:48And he put a stadium tour production in an arena.
31:52Nobody left the arena going, fuck, I got gypped tonight, right?
31:56And I think that it should go to him, right?
32:00To me, I understand where it comes from, right?
32:03Fans listen to artists and they become really emotionally attached to artists, and they
32:08think they have a personal relationship.
32:11And then they get really emotional about how could my friend charge me that much money
32:16for a ticket?
32:16And I understand the psychology of it.
32:20But the truth of the matter is, we've been way underpriced for way too long, and now
32:25we have these great mechanisms where we can actually get the artist paid what they deserve.
32:30But the other issue that muddies this is that I agree with you, but also we compare them
32:34to airline tickets over and over again.
32:36But it's like when you go to buy an airline ticket, you're not all of a sudden, you're
32:40not on Delta, and then you're kind of referred to like five other fake websites and all the
32:44other things, and like trying to figure out if you're buying an actual ticket.
32:46So I think to your point in terms of, it's not like we need to open a tour budget and
32:51explain to fans how much it costs a tour.
32:53That's not the point.
32:54The point is, I think that we can have this evolution to bring tickets to a realistic
32:58place.
32:59But there's the, not the elephant in the room, but the complication in the room is that the
33:03messaging and experience of buying a ticket is actually what has caused so much, I think,
33:08frustration amongst the general public, which I certainly understand.
33:10No other, we talk about no other industry operates, da, da, da.
33:14Is there another industry that has the like absolute rat's nest of a mess around ticketing
33:18that we do?
33:19I have, by the way, yelled at pilots as I get on the plane, because I'm a bully.
33:24But anyway.
33:26But we deal with fan entitlement in a different way.
33:29It's like not everybody gets the luxury of sitting first row at a Taylor Swift show.
33:33But if you would have watched social media during her on sale, that's what you would
33:37have thought.
33:38And it's how do you combat that in a way?
33:41It's, again, we're the only one, everyone thinks they're deserving.
33:45That's hard.
33:46I'm curious about how you guys think dynamic pricing and everything going on here is going
33:51to affect festivals.
33:52It already has.
33:55Yeah, we're already seeing it, especially in terms of, you know, headliners and potential
34:00headliners saying like, hey, you know, I'm going to take this festival.
34:03I don't know.
34:04That's not dynamic pricing.
34:06That's just pricing like that.
34:08Sure.
34:08You know, right.
34:09So whatever they get out of that, you know, leave home money was for an artist that can
34:15go pick it up on a headline run and amortize their costs, they're going to go do that.
34:19So what you're saying is the cost for talent acquisition is at an all time high within
34:23a certain zone.
34:25And so that makes it very difficult on some of the festival buyers.
34:29I mean, it's not dynamic pricing.
34:31There are festivals that I think in the final weeks leading up to the show, they start ratcheting
34:37up those prices, you know, because they think they can.
34:40And a lot of people aren't even disclosing it.
34:42Like, you know, and then the artists who are in bonus situations want to know why they're
34:47all of a sudden raising these prices.
34:49So I don't think there's a lot of dynamic pricing going on at festivals.
34:53But the idea or the fact that, you know, the cost for talent acquisition on the festival
35:00level is at an all time high.
35:02And that's a problem.
35:04I mean, more that dynamic pricing on non-festival tours.
35:09We all understood, James.
35:10Yeah.
35:12Brent's going to disagree with whatever I say.
35:16No, I hear what you're saying.
35:17I'm not totally sure what he said.
35:18But I think what the question was this, which is, yeah, sure.
35:24Now these artists are grossing incredible amounts of money.
35:27That festival, remember when seven figure festival offers was like, wow, that was crazy.
35:32It's just it's everyone yawns at it now.
35:34Like, it's just not money based on if you're in an arena grossing 2 million to 3 million
35:40a night.
35:41Yeah, the festival money is just not that enticing anymore.
35:46I think answer the question.
35:47But also the festival.
35:48I mean, for the festivals, though, those are the artists that they want.
35:51Right.
35:51And that's the thing.
35:52It's like, I think when we go back to the conversation we were having before about the
35:55changing and, you know, what is a rock act?
35:58What is this?
35:58It's like, you know, those are the artists that they want.
36:01So it is, you know, glad I'm not a festival promoter.
36:04Yeah.
36:04And then it's it's and then it's slowing down.
36:06So the festivals don't have their headliners yet.
36:09And so it's slowing down, you know, booking the undercard.
36:12So then we're having to go out route tours with placeholders for festivals where we think
36:18if we don't have, you know, we have maybe the second act on or something.
36:22It's like we have to kind of wait for a longer time, you know, and then we're routing a lot
36:27of more tours around festivals than we should be, which is causing a glut and a lot of competition
36:33that shouldn't be there, which is quite frustrating.
36:35Yeah, I would not want Paul T or Houston's job like it used to be.
36:39Wow.
36:40Now it is so difficult for those guys.
36:42I do not envy what that's really and they need to be faster and they need to catch up
36:47with how fast all of the clubs, theaters, arenas, everything is booking up.
36:51Don't tell Houston that.
36:52Oh, well, he does.
36:53And he knows and I'm sure he hates it.
36:56And then they want to be thoughtful and methodical about what they're booking.
37:00And they also need to figure out, you know, they can't.
37:03Anyway, I think there's also a little bit of a wait and see now.
37:07Like they get their top, you know, proven headliners and then they want to know who
37:12the next two chapels, Sabrina's, whoever they are.
37:16Renee is just great.
37:18It's okay for them.
37:19I guess it's more on us that it's more difficult for us.
37:22In addition to the money, though, I mean, we have some legacy artists that, you know,
37:25they're arena stadium headline artists that they prefer just to play to their audience.
37:29Yeah.
37:30They don't need to do that.
37:30Well, they sell more merch.
37:31That's for damn sure.
37:33Well, and the money is comparable now.
37:34I mean, yeah.
37:36We only have a few minutes left.
37:37I wanted to ask one last question and kind of go around in terms of the biggest opportunity
37:44that you're either interested in looking at, intrigued by, move 2025 forward.
37:50You touched upon it.
37:50You guys all touched upon it a little bit in terms of the changes of the industry.
37:53But what is something that's, you know, you're interested in?
37:58I'm going to start a tour bus company.
38:03Oh, that's hilarious.
38:04Yeah.
38:05Actually, I do have a side hustle with merch.
38:07So that is going on.
38:09I want to put Brett and Kirk on tour together.
38:11I got to be top left billing.
38:25He already promised Jason, what did he promise you?
38:2750 grand, a festival slot.
38:30Let's just two man show.
38:34I'm not touching that one.
38:35All right.
38:36I would just go back to what I'm, what I think the,
38:39is a critical and exciting opportunity is what you're seeing with the investment in infrastructure.
38:46Municipalities are all being redone throughout the country.
38:50You know, you see what Oakview Group is building.
38:53You see, you know, an arena in Palm Springs, which no one thought would ever get chosen.
38:59You know, maybe you're having help with that.
39:01But at the end of the day, everyone is investing in infrastructure and it's global.
39:08Live Nation's building a 40,000 seat arena in Bogota.
39:14I mean, it's, there's so much going on in terms of global infrastructure.
39:19AEG builds Pinnacle in Nashville.
39:22There's just, it's, and that is great for artists.
39:25You know, Thunder Valley in Sacramento is a great play for a lot of artists.
39:30And we talk about the top 10%.
39:32You know, a lot of agencies make their bread and butter in the upper middle class of their roster.
39:42So, it's wonderful to talk about the biggest artists in the world.
39:46But the bread and butter acts really pay the bills.
39:49So, having new places for them to play and artists who continue and play, you know,
39:5540, 60, 80, 100 shows a year, that's what's going to keep our business moving.
40:03As I say, I'm looking for more of the globalization of music.
40:06And not just the exporting, as Brent said, bringing our clients on tour.
40:10But more of the world music coming here.
40:11So, again, whether it be K-pop, Afrobeat, Punjabi, right?
40:15Some of, you know, it's some great stuff that's happening.
40:17And, you know, the diaspora of people leaving their home countries going around the world
40:24and resettling, right, is opening up a big opportunity culturally
40:28for us to learn, you know, about that music.
40:30To get into theaters, arenas.
40:32A lot of festivals are playing it now, as you mentioned, Jason.
40:34And even like, it's sort of like, you know, the subtitle genre of Netflix, right?
40:41We're watching movies and TV shows and docudramas that came from around the world with subtitles.
40:46Which Americans never did, right?
40:48They do it now and they're accepting non-English language music.
40:51Whether it be Spanish language, it's just great for the globalization.
40:55It's absolutely massive, Dave.
40:57It's absolutely correct.
40:58I mean, the non-English speaking acts that are having the success that they're having
41:03in multiple territories is unprecedented.
41:06Obviously, they're growing in their native countries.
41:09But to come here and sell the level of tickets that they're selling, it's just astounding.
41:14It's not a barrier.
41:16Yeah.
41:17Well, guys, we are out of time.
41:19This is wonderful.
41:19This is a lot of fun for me.
41:22And please give them, all of you guys, a round of applause.
41:26We appreciate your time.
41:27We appreciate your thoughts.
41:28We appreciate your jokes and zingers.
41:31Thank you, guys.