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00:00Hello and welcome to yet
00:14another edition of your weekly
00:15international current affairs
00:16program. Globe watch from the
00:18Cameroon Radio Television with
00:19me Charles Eboni Ed from the
00:21Starland Hotel. Yeah in the
00:24Cameroon. Climate change is one
00:26of the greatest crisis and
00:27challenges facing our world
00:29key ways of rolling back the negative effects of climate change across generations and countries
00:36is providing the necessary finances to provide an alternative pathway in the way we manage
00:43our natural resources and the environment in which we live in order to produce a blueprint
00:50that would tame the climate change effects around the world.
00:55My guest today on Globe Watch is the co-chair of one of the world's leading, if not the
01:01largest world-leading coordinating agency for climate finance, the Climate Green Fund.
01:11The co-chair of the Green Climate Fund, Seni Nafo of Malian nationality, welcome to Globe
01:20Watch.
01:21Welcome, thank you, thank you.
01:23You have just been elected in South Korea, where the headquarters of the Green Climate
01:30Fund is found.
01:32How was your election?
01:34Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me.
01:39I'm here to attend the largest young forum on climate finance, on adaptation on the continent.
01:48So I'm happy to be here to do that.
01:52So the Green Climate Fund elects co-chairs once a year, two co-chairs, one representing
02:01all developed countries and one representing all developing countries, meaning more than
02:07146 countries, and I've had the good fortune of being selected, elected for a number of
02:15reasons.
02:16I've been an advisor to board members for the last 12 years or so, and there's a new
02:24cycle starting January 1st, and my colleagues have deemed me fit to serve the board.
02:37And at the same time, this is happening in a moment where the Green Climate Fund is going
02:44through a restructuring.
02:47We've had a new executive director just a year and a half ago, who is coming with renewed
02:56energy to address a number of challenges, one of which is access, meaning accelerating
03:07the access to the Green Climate Fund's resources.
03:11Which means that of the 14 years of existence of the Green Climate Fund, you have spent
03:17within that ecosystem roughly 12 years, which means that you know the nitty-gritties of
03:22how the structure functions.
03:24How critical is the Green Climate Fund in helping the whole global discourse of fighting
03:31climate change and global warming?
03:36It is today the largest multilateral climate fund.
03:41So the fund was capitalized in 2015, just going to Paris, an initial capitalization
03:51of $10 billion, and it has received, it has been replenished in 2018, and it was further
03:58replenished last year.
04:00So that's about 30 plus billion in 10 years.
04:05We have approved about $15 billion, and what we also do is that most of our projects we
04:11co-fund, meaning usually when we fund a project with let's say a dollar from the Green Climate
04:18Fund, we're also able to attract another dollar from another institution.
04:24So so far, we've pretty much in our portfolio reached about total mobilization target is
04:31$30 billion, and we're looking for a $50 billion mark by 2030.
04:37So that's significant, but still, unfortunately, the needs, just on this continent, the needs
04:45are so much that the GCF needs to really overhaul its strategy.
04:50Out of that $15 billion or so which was approved, the continent received one third of that.
04:56So one third, so this is about $3 billion every year, I mean, $3 billion roughly every
05:05three years, $1 billion per year.
05:09Africa needs about 20 times that much, 20 times that much.
05:15So what we're working on in the Green Climate Fund right now is a strategy where we work
05:21with countries in establishing a comprehensive resource mobilization strategy, which has
05:27the GCF in the center, but which allows really countries to mobilize all kinds of finance,
05:34all kinds of public and private, domestic and international.
05:38So this is the what role we want to play.
05:41We want to have a GCF advising countries.
05:43Resource mobilization is a key element of that fund, and like you said, you have disbursed
05:50already roughly $16.1 billion, sponsoring roughly 286 projects across some 160 countries,
06:02roughly something of that nature.
06:05The projects you sponsor to roll back climate change, what is their nature?
06:12So there's fundamentally two.
06:14Green agriculture, forest restoration, land restoration, or what?
06:19All of that.
06:20So there's two fundamental types of climate projects.
06:24You have those projects which deals with the impact.
06:28So they're called adaptation, meaning adaptation to climate change.
06:32And there's those who are trying really to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
06:37They're called mitigation projects.
06:39So out of that, you have broad.
06:40So those are the two types.
06:42And then you have really broad categories.
06:45So if you were to assess African countries' climate strategies, you would see that agriculture
06:53and water are the two most important sectors, or their priority sectors, producing more
07:00I mean, ensuring food security, ensuring food security in a climate which is more and more
07:05variable, which is more and more unstable, which is more and more unpredictable.
07:10That's one priority.
07:12A second is water, sustainable water management for human, for agriculture.
07:19Some UN reports, including the UN Framework Conference on Climate Change, indicates that
07:28for the nationally determined contributions to meet the targets of keeping temperatures
07:34below 1.5 degrees Celsius in the next century, the world needs to invest roughly $6 trillion
07:44by 2030 as part of the Sustainable Development Goals.
07:49In 2015, at the Paris climate change deal, we globally agreed that those who polluted
07:56the world should contribute at least $100 billion annually.
08:02You were the presidential envoy for climate for Mali.
08:07You have spent so many years in the climate change discussions.
08:12Why do you think we are unable to meet the financial targets we set out all the time?
08:21Very easy.
08:23And I'm also the spokesperson for the African Group of Negotiators, a role that I've played
08:29for the last 15 years.
08:33Out of the last, I've also been the chair of the African Group.
08:37That question is very easy.
08:38Lack of political will.
08:41Those pledges, the $100 billion, which was originally made in 2009, first of all by...
08:50Copenhagen.
08:51Copenhagen.
08:52Yes, in Copenhagen by Gordon Brown, then British Prime Minister, and then Hillary Clinton,
09:00Secretary of State.
09:01The US Secretary of State at the time.
09:03Indeed, $100 billion.
09:05So that figure was announced in the first part of the Obama administration.
09:09Indeed.
09:10And this was, so we, I mean, they, so this was a collective target for all developed
09:14countries.
09:15They were supposed to meet that target in 2020.
09:17I think they met them based on OECD data last year.
09:24Again, $100 billion, if you compare $100 billion to everything else, budget, I mean, defense
09:31budget of developed countries.
09:34If you compare it to that figure, if you compare it to stimulus, the different stimulus the
09:38West has been able to mobilize for COVID and health, this is a drop.
09:47We, in the, so we work, so in the group of, in the African group of negotiators, there's
09:53right now, we're going to a COP, right?
09:55We're going to a COP in Baku, literally in days, where the developed countries with us,
10:02we will be setting a new goal, meaning the goal which will replace the $100 billion.
10:06Africa's position is at least $1.5 to $2 trillion.
10:10The reality is that there's no shortage of resources.
10:13We are, economists will tell you, but we are right now in a fiat currency system, a
10:20global monetary system, which is fiat meaning, but literally governments or central banks
10:28print money.
10:29And this is what the West has done.
10:31The Federal Reserve of the US, the central bank in the EU, the ECB, and the Japanese
10:38bank, the Bank of Japan, they have been printing money to stimulate their economies.
10:44Two, three years ago, you had $17,000 billion or $17 trillion of negative interest rate
10:51bonds, negative interest rate bonds.
10:54Any economist, any student in an economic class will tell you, this is illogical, that
10:59you have negative interest rate bonds.
11:01So there's no shortage of resources.
11:04There is shortage of political will.
11:07Because unfortunately, the bulk of the impacts and the suffering and pain is happening in
11:15developing countries.
11:17It's not happening in developed countries.
11:19It's not happening in the US.
11:21It's not happening in Europe.
11:23It's not happening in Japan.
11:25It's happening in Africa.
11:27How critical is the situation of climate change in developing countries where you are their
11:33spokesperson, you are the voice?
11:35How critical is it?
11:36It is, if you look at it, it is a question in many instances of life and death.
11:41I'll give you a few examples.
11:44So the African Development Bank did a study a few years ago.
11:49And in that study, it informs us that climate change is already costing 5% of GDP per year.
11:56Most African countries don't grow at 5% GDP.
11:59So what does that mean?
12:00That means that climate change impacts are eroding development gains.
12:06I'll give you, you know, again, concrete examples.
12:09The floods, the whole of, you know, look at the map right now, the whole of Central Africa,
12:15Northern Africa, part of Northern Africa, the whole of the Sahel right now is flooded.
12:19So when you have that, imagine you build, you know, government borrow to build roads,
12:24then you have a flood, washes away the road.
12:28Well, the debt on the government books remains, but the infrastructure is no longer there.
12:35The very Durban, the very Durban COP 17, where we launched the cycle in 2011, which led to
12:42the Paris Agreement, the port of Durban was flooded two years ago.
12:48Same thing, Mozambique, Mozambique, when you hear Mozambique, people will tell you this
12:54is the next El Dorado in terms of gas, gas reserves, sure.
12:58But some of us are extremely anxious when we talk about Mozambique.
13:03Why?
13:04Because Mozambique is geographically positioned and get now frequently, if not year after
13:10year, hits by cyclones to the point, to the point of the president of Mozambique has now
13:17been appointed as the natural disaster champion for the African Union.
13:22So the reality for a country like Mozambique is that we've done the math within the African
13:27group of negotiators.
13:28We've sort of tallied the two numbers, meaning Mozambique is producing gas.
13:34How much will that generate in the next 10, 15, 20 years?
13:38And at the same time, Mozambique is being hit every year by either natural disasters
13:44or extreme climate event.
13:45How much is that costing?
13:47And we're realizing that if we don't deal with climate change in a serious manner, Mozambique
13:52will not make enough money from its oil and gas to deal with the impact of climate change.
13:58I'll give you another example.
13:59Most African countries rely on agriculture, meaning if you look at the structure of the
14:05economy, 40% of the GDP of most African countries is ag, is agri, 40%.
14:1560 to 70% of the labor force is in agriculture.
14:21Now a figure, guess how much percent of credit, meaning commercial banking credit, is going
14:29to agriculture?
14:30Less than 5%.
14:32So meaning an agriculture is in many instances, in most African countries, rain-fed, labor-intensive.
14:43So meaning ancient, inadequate, there's not much tech intake, not much entrant intake,
14:51not much sustainable water intake.
14:53So this is the most vulnerable from a socio-economic, both a socio-perspective, meaning 60% of your
15:03population depend on a sector which is that exposed.
15:08You can only imagine.
15:11And look at imports, food imports, I think Africa has reached now $500 billion worth
15:16of food imports.
15:17Amongst the target populations of the 286 Rafa projects you have sponsored in the past
15:2314 years, of course, it's the youth that you want to target to see how they can manage
15:28the future themselves.
15:29How critical, you who have been in discussions, spokesperson, presidential envoy, adaptation,
15:37how much do you invest in telling the story of the adverse effects of climate change to
15:43young people?
15:44Well this is so, as you know I'm running the Africa Adaptation Initiative, which is the
15:49initiative African heads of state have launched in Paris to foster and promote concrete implementation
15:56on the ground.
15:57So we're very happy to work with PAGJA, which is the Pan-African Climate Justice Alliance,
16:02which has launched an initiative just on young youth and adaptation finance, led by
16:08my very good brother Dr. Augustine Nyamji.
16:11So what we're doing really is to work with the youth in training the youth to be climate
16:19finance experts, to be able to draft projects and programs.
16:27So I'll give you a number.
16:29I told you at the beginning of this conversation that Africa mobilizes one third of the GCF
16:37resources.
16:38That's just one part of the reality.
16:40Another part of that reality is that 80%, over 80% of those 30% is mobilized by non-African
16:50entities.
16:51What does that mean?
16:52That means that you're not having Africans mobilizing resources by Africans for Africans.
16:59I'll give you, we are in Cameroon.
17:02This region, Central Africa, the 15 countries or so, from Chad down to Angola, the two Congos,
17:12this region is the only region in the world which doesn't have one accredited entity,
17:17national accredited entity to the Green Climate Fund.
17:20So those are some of the issues that I want to address.
17:23I'll be coming to that in a moment.
17:26You have been elected recently.
17:29Your first trip was to Cameroon.
17:31How crucial was it for you to attend the youth meeting on climate?
17:39It is fundamental.
17:40Why?
17:41Because of three reasons.
17:43First, climate change itself for Africa is a triple tragedy.
17:48I call it a triple curse.
17:50We've not created that problem.
17:52Africa is only what, 5%, less than 5% of emission.
17:56We are going to be the most affected, simply because the continent warms 1.5 times faster
18:08than the rest of the world.
18:09And even if we wanted to solve the problem, because 95% of emissions outside of this continent,
18:14we cannot.
18:15So we need to work with the rest of the world.
18:20So that's the peculiarity of climate change.
18:21But why here?
18:22Why Yaoundé?
18:25And why the youth?
18:26Because to me, when I think youth, there's three values which come to mind.
18:32Innovation and creativity, excellence and resilience.
18:37We are a young continent.
18:39So as a young continent, we should be able to innovate, to be creative, to seek excellence
18:46and really to be resilient.
18:49And that's why it was so important for me to have an opportunity to have this conversation
18:53with the youth.
18:54And also tell them, the job and prosperity opportunities in climate change, as much as
19:01this is your worst challenge and the worst crisis, it's also the job opportunity and
19:10prosperity in every part of climate change and all the fight against climate change is
19:16huge.
19:17It's almost unlimited.
19:20Climate change is, you know, climate adaptation is local specific.
19:23So you just take a country like Cameroon.
19:27The north of Cameroon, you are in the Sahel.
19:29You are in the Sahel, maybe even in the Sahara for some, and in the south, if you go through
19:35the coast, you're going to have different climate impacts.
19:38You might have droughts in the north and floods in the south.
19:42So that calls for different type of interventions, different type of planning, different type
19:48of resources.
19:49What does that mean?
19:50That means different type of opportunities.
19:52And the young, we need to train the young to take advantage of that.
19:55Mr. Pocho of the Green Climate Fund, the Congo Basin is the world's second largest ecological
20:02ecosystem, which of course usually fights against climate change.
20:08And we were coming from the Congo Basin Summit last year, and all that was said, and then
20:17that on forest management still held in the Congo.
20:20How do you explain to me that this important part of the ecosystem does not have recognized
20:31entities which have access to the Green Climate Fund?
20:37I'll give you, well, you know, there's a pull and push effect.
20:43In order to push money in a country, you have to be able to pull it.
20:49So that's what I was saying, that we are in a region which doesn't have accredited entities
20:55to the Green Climate Fund.
20:58I won't name countries.
21:00There's a country in North Africa which has four accredited entities.
21:05Four.
21:06Yes.
21:07It's not important, but it's an African country.
21:10That is the point.
21:11It's not equally a crime to name.
21:12The point is, you know, it's to avoid distraction.
21:17The point is, what I want to say is that there are African countries who have four entities.
21:22There are African countries who have two entities.
21:25The fact that you have a whole African region which doesn't have one entity, one must self-interrogate.
21:34And that was the point.
21:35I actually made that point in the board.
21:38I've followed very closely the work that President Sassou has done in the Congo Basin.
21:43It's extraordinary.
21:45The level of advocacy that he is doing is, you know, him and President Tshisekedi, they've
21:51been champions.
21:53Champions in advocating and making a case for strong support.
21:59Now what they need, what needs to be then followed up by the institutions, by the national
22:05institutions, is to be ready to mobilize the expertise to be able to have institutions
22:12which can be accredited, which can mobilize.
22:14You know, mobilizing finance is a full-time job.
22:18It's a full-time job.
22:19It's a dedicated expertise.
22:21It's like an investment banker if you are in private sector.
22:24So in private sector, you have all kinds of bankers.
22:26You have bankers who do mergers and acquisitions, bankers who will take your hand and take
22:31you to the financial market and issue bonds for you and mobilize resources.
22:35It's the same thing for climate finance.
22:37And this is, and it's not even that those institutions don't exist.
22:41They do exist.
22:42We have to do a better job of mobilizing them.
22:45And this has been, and that's also the very first reason why I wanted to have this region
22:51and Yaounde to be the first destination.
22:55Because we need, you know, this region is contributing the most to climate change and
22:59unfortunately it's not receiving its inadequate share.
23:01So what you are telling me is that critically, the ecological diplomacy of the countries
23:05of the Congo Basin is not possibly effective, right?
23:08No, the diplomacy, the diplomacy is effective.
23:13Again, I was talking push and pull.
23:15So from a diplomatic point of view, the president, the ministers are doing an extremely good
23:21job of advocating the case.
23:23It's a financial articulation.
23:27It's a financial articulation working with an ecosystem.
23:30I'll give you an example.
23:31I like giving examples because it's so concrete, right?
23:33Absolutely, it's concrete.
23:34Take, we are in Yaounde.
23:38We have the central bank of the region, right?
23:40BIAC.
23:41For six countries.
23:42Exactly.
23:43And you have the development bank of the Central African region, BDIC.
23:49They're not accredited yet.
23:52We need to have them accredited.
23:54Because if BDIC is accredited, they will be able to mobilize for the region.
23:59But we don't have them as an accredited entity.
24:01In the moment the interview will be coming to an end, let me tap on your wealth of experience
24:08plus 12 years working in the climate sector, rallying resources, mobilizing ideas, analyzing
24:18them of all the years, and I'm sure that you started when you were quite young in this
24:23field technically.
24:24Yes, I had a lot more hair.
24:28What have you learned about the way we manage the environment in which we live?
24:36The good thing is that we have a lukewarm attitude.
24:42The first thing I've seen across the continent is progress.
24:48When I started in 2009, that was my very first COP, climate was very much elitist.
24:59Very much elitist.
25:00I'll give you a marker.
25:05In 2009, that was the creation also at the African Union level, a committee of African
25:12heads of states on climate change, led by the late Prime Minister Meles Zenawi.
25:17But again, of Ethiopia.
25:19And he was then, in 2009, the only country which had developed a program to integrate
25:26climate change in national development planning processes.
25:28He was the only one.
25:30You would only wait in 2015 to have the world picking up.
25:33But my point is, I've seen, first of all, progress.
25:37Right now, every year, African heads of states meet and there is a decision on climate change.
25:44It's hard now, even in the media.
25:47I've seen that one.
25:48I've seen now progress.
25:51Climate has been, the sensitisation and information, good.
25:55But the second point is, really, the challenge has been how do you integrate climate in your
26:01development planning processes?
26:03Climate, I like to say, but climate is not environment.
26:07But climate is a development issue.
26:09But climate is a national security issue.
26:13And the biggest gap now has been the creation of those instruments and tools, whether policy
26:21tools, statistic tools, let alone finance tools, that needs to be developed and really
26:28brought to policy makers, government, let alone private sector, to be able to work.
26:33That is where a lot of work needs to happen.
26:37So there's differentiation now in countries.
26:39You have countries on the continent who are champions, who are world champions when it
26:44comes to energy policy or climate, you know, or renewable energy policy, when it comes
26:50to adaptation policy, when it comes to climate finance policy.
26:53So what we want to do, both at the Green Climate Fund level and at the Africa Adaptation Initiative,
26:58level, is to create those toolboxes with dedicated expertise and bring them to countries
27:06so that a country can say, OK, I have the expertise, I have the tools, I can get the
27:11job done.
27:12This is really our challenge for the next few years.
27:16Finally, there are so many elements involved in the climate change discourse.
27:22You can talk about the renewable energy segment.
27:25You can talk about money, financing.
27:29You can talk about crafting the ideas.
27:32You can talk about the impacts.
27:33But when I look at Africa in particular, the entire discourse and focus mostly is on adaptation.
27:41Why do you think that in Africa adaptation is critical and important?
27:46For a very specific reason, you know.
27:51Adaptation is a necessity.
27:53Adaptation, meaning adaptation to the impacts of climate change, is a necessity.
27:58When there is a flood, governments don't have a choice.
28:01You need to deal with that flood.
28:03When there's a drought, you don't have a choice.
28:05You need to deal with that drought.
28:07When there's any extreme weather event, so adaptation is something, an impact, this impact
28:13is imposed on us first.
28:16Second, with climate change going really wild, because emissions are not going, are not coming
28:22down, are not slowing down 2% per year, but are actually increasing 2% per year, we're
28:27having still an increase and an intensity in climate change.
28:31And as I said, if you look at our government, if you look at our development trajectory,
28:35the fact that most of our development is still linked to natural resources, which is going
28:40to be hit by climate change, this is a necessity.
28:43So adapting to climate change, integrating adaptation and climate impacts in all of our
28:49policy, in our agriculture policy, in our water policy, in our land policy, is just
28:55good common sense development.
28:58Now reducing emission, though, is an opportunity.
29:02Reducing emission if, you know, as a country, if you take the energy sector, it can allow
29:07you to have access to technology, to have access to cleaner technology.
29:12You know, a country like Cameroon can have a very good mix of hydro and solar and batteries
29:21to be able to have maybe even 100%, 100% a mix so that oil is oil and gas can be exported
29:28for foreign income.
29:31Both Ethiopia and Kenya, I said I was not going to name names, but this, you know, this
29:36is the end.
29:37They are almost at 100% of renewable energy in their mix.
29:43So reducing emission, you know, to put it mildly, we like to say that reducing emission
29:49is an opportunity.
29:50Accessing finance, accessing capacity, accessing technology.
29:54But adapting to an impact.
29:56If you're told as the head of the government that tomorrow there's going to be, that your
30:01capital city is going to be flooded, you need to deal with that.
30:05And unfortunately, that is going to take resources that you had planned.
30:09That is how vicious climate change is.
30:12Not only it is eroding development gains, but it can take away resources that you had
30:17programmed for other priorities, but you'll need to deal with the urgency.
30:22Because when you have a city which is flooded, this is your emergency.
30:28So you need to deal with that.
30:30It's a necessity.
30:31That's the thing with adaptation.
30:32It is a necessity.
30:33On the need of climate change as an emergency, we end the interview.
30:40The co-chair of the Green Climate Fund, Malian Bonseni-Nafu, thank you very much indeed for
30:47being a guest on my program.
30:48Thanks Charles.
30:49Thanks for inviting me.
30:50You're welcome.