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00:00Hello and welcome to yet another edition of your weekly international current affairs program, Globe Watch from the Cameroon radio television with me Charles Eboney here at the Hilton Hotel in Yaoundé where we are receiving the Secretary General of the Organization of Saudi Corporation, Sheikh Mansour Bin Musallam. Welcome to Globe Watch.
00:23Thank you Charles for inviting me and your interest in giving me this platform.
00:27I presume that this should be your first ever visit to Cameroon. So what brings you in the country at this time of the year?
00:36Well, I see that you are very well informed. It is indeed my very first visit to Yaoundé, to Cameroon. And of course in coming to visit Cameroon during those days, it was as a response to the very kind and generous invitation extended by UNESCO and the government of Cameroon in terms of the international conference, the global conference that has happened here quite historically in the occasion of the International Literacy Day.
01:05But I did so as well, accepting this invitation because this is a topic that is very dear to the Organization of Southern Corporation, but also to explore opportunities of furthering cooperation and collaboration in service of multidimensional development with the authorities here in Yaoundé.
01:27You indicated that you are here at the 58th World Literacy Day, an event which equally brought the Director General of UNESCO, Audrey Azoulay, here in Yaoundé, Cameroon. The current statistics prove that roughly 750 million adults worldwide are suffering from illiteracy. Is that a cause of concern for your organization?
01:55Well, I think it's a cause of concern for absolutely everyone across the world. And I think we know the cost of persistent illiteracy. And I think that the figures that you mentioned, which, yes, are some kind of progress over the past few decades, but any survival of illiteracy rates despite campaign after campaign must be a concern for all of our societies.
02:20But I think that, if you allow me to be a bit provocative, because I do think that, and this is something that I raised during the global conference here in Yaoundé, I do not think that today, in Cameroon, anywhere else in Africa, in the rest of the greater South or in the North, any organization or institution or government would tell you that literacy is not a crucial foundation for the rest of our development.
02:50It's a foundation for development, endeavors and social cohesion. The question that we have to ask ourselves is that we've been speaking about this for decades, six, seven decades, if not more. And the truth is that we cannot keep beating around the bush. So when we speak of literacy, we have to identify the elephant in the room, which is ultimately the issue of financing.
03:12And when I say financing, and this is one of the crucial areas where the organization works, is the issue of debt. Today we live in a world, Charles, where 3.3 billion people live in countries where the governments have no other choice, so it's not a matter of national policy, no other choice than to spend more on debt service than they can on health or education.
03:36So if we want to speak of literacy, we have to speak of all those other areas where the Organization of Southern Cooperation works proud today.
04:06Charles, you are four years old now in an African country, Djibouti, as a conglomerate of the Caribbean, Africa, Middle East and Asia. Can you just show me some background of how you came into existence?
04:25Well, once again, Charles, you know the history of the OSCE almost as well as I do. But, of course, the OSCE was indeed born in January 2020 at an international summit that brought heads of state and governments, ministers and, of course, high-level government officials as well as civil society from across our three continents, Latin America and the Caribbean, Africa and Asia.
04:51And that summit indeed happened in Djibouti. And these countries came together with an understanding that as countries of the self, of the greater self, as we say at the OSCE, it is crucial for us to have an additional intergovernmental space with an executive secretariat in order to implement concrete projects focused on development.
05:16And, of course, we were born on the 29th of January 2020, which means when COVID-19 was only a whisper. And, funnily enough, despite the fact that we were born right before all the certainties we collectively had as individuals, societies came crashing down with the pandemic, the vision that was set by the member states was one that became all the more relevant and pressing.
05:46And this vision really centers on four core mandates.
05:56What is the issue? What is the missing line? What was lacking in all other South-South conglomerates or agencies, organizations that exist? If you take, for example, the non-aligned movement, they are basically all on South-South cooperation.
06:21Specifically, what is your core mandate? I read somewhere that you want to provide a space for a more equitable, just society with a focus on education. Others couldn't deliver that?
06:34Well, I think that you're very right to mention that there are other organizations or platforms of South-South cooperation. And we are not reinventing the wheel. What our founding states identified, quite rightly in fact, is that you mentioned the non-aligned movement, a crucial movement of our countries.
06:53In fact, one could argue that without the non-aligned movement, the very conception of what would become the global South would not have existed. That being said, the non-aligned movement, just as the name quite rightly identifies, is a movement. It does not have a permanent secretariat that is there to implement any kinds of projects.
07:15Therefore, the non-aligned movement is a crucial space for our heads of state and government to convene every three years, to share views and identify common positions. But there is, again, no executive secretariat to implement those decisions.
07:33Then you look at the Group of 77, the G77 plus China. A crucial space. A crucial space, and let me ratify this a third time, a crucial space whose value you can see in negotiations such as the COP every year.
07:49Well, the G77 is a very broad coalition of countries from the South, but really a coalition for negotiations within the framework of the United Nations.
08:02Then you look at another layer of South-South cooperation. You see the South Center, which is constitutionally a step above. Why? Because the South Center is created by a treaty, so it's not an informal grouping. But again, its aspiration, which is crucial, is to serve as a think tank.
08:22And this is where the organization of Southern cooperation comes in. That is saying, we have all those spaces that are crucial, that are necessary, but in addition to them, we need a platform with an executive secretariat that is there to implement the decisions of our countries and create concrete projects so that South-South cooperation doesn't get stuck into a sort of abstract intellectual exercise or left to bilateral relations.
08:52But so that there are common multilateral projects with standing teams to implement. And those projects, just for your viewers to have clarity, focus on four core mandates, accompanying member states in transforming education towards balance and inclusivity, reinforcing our research capacities and scientific production capacities, ensuring technological development within our countries.
09:20And finally, addressing the international financial architecture so that our countries are able not only to get much-needed debt relief in fiscal space, but most crucially, can access more concessional finance.
09:34A readout of your mission statement, and critically, when somebody looks at your activities for the past four years now, let me just hang on one of them, education.
09:45Currently, as we speak, we have roughly 250 million children of school-going age globally who can't go to school because of conflict and wars, Cameroon included.
09:56I just mentioned earlier that you have roughly 754 million adults who are illiterate, which means that especially in Southern Africa in particular, one out of three adults is unable to read.
10:12How essential is improving educational or literacy levels around the world to the success of your structure?
10:24Look, I think that I owe you transparency, and I owe your viewers transparency.
10:31And I will not stand here, or sit here, better said, to pontificate and present as if the OSCE was the Alpha and the Omega.
10:40Part of what characterizes the organization of Southern cooperation is the spirit of cooperation and not competition.
10:49And therefore, we do not seek to reinvent the wheel, and we recognize the extraordinary work that has been undertaken by UNESCO, by UNICEF, by the African Union in many respects.
11:00And where the OSCE positions itself is to bring the added value of that perspective of balanced and inclusive education, that is, the socio-cultural drivers of exclusion within the education system, in order to complement the other initiatives.
11:17So when you ask me how crucial the success of the OSCE is to the endeavor of eradicating illiteracy and ensuring that everybody has the right to education, I would tell you, of course, it is indispensable.
11:32Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time leading this organization that I firmly believe in.
11:37But I do not want to seem as if I am belittling the work of others either, who are also doing great work.
11:43So we believe in confederating efforts, the success of the OSCE and the success of all other initiatives that seek...
11:51You believe in confederating actions.
11:57No, but hold on, confederating efforts...
11:59One second.
12:01I want to finish my sentence.
12:03So, confederating efforts in all initiatives that seek to address these issues that we also believe in.
12:10You talked of confederating actions and you talked of cooperation.
12:15So how much do you cooperate with the institutions you just mentioned a while ago in making the world a more better place?
12:26So as you rightfully mentioned earlier, because the context is important, the OSCE was born in January 2020, right before COVID.
12:33But since we are intergovernmental, there was a process of ratification, which means that our charter actually did not enter into force until the 18th of May 2021.
12:44Following that, of course, we had our first General Assembly and then a year to negotiate a headquarters agreement.
12:51As you can appreciate, you cannot appoint 160 staff members without a secretariat, without a physical location, that is.
12:59So in effect, when we moved to Addis Ababa to start our work, it was in January 2020...
13:06Where you are headquartered today.
13:08Exactly. It was in January 2023, which means that from that moment onwards, my focus as Secretary General, as you will appreciate, was internal.
13:17How do we consolidate this organization? How do we build a secretariat that reflects the self with the capacities, the skills, in order to respond to the aspirations of our people?
13:29You have to establish your own credibility within the network system.
13:32But beyond credibility, I think that what matters is, if you want to implement a program, it's not enough to decree it.
13:40What you want to do is to get the professionals with the skills, with the experience, and people who share the vision of South-South cooperation.
13:49And of course, we did that in record time, but at the same time, building a secretariat from scratch, that is, in January 2023, we are a handful of staff members at the OSCE.
14:01Within a few months, we had hit over a hundred staff members.
14:06But in parallel, what we recognized was the importance to start implementing the common program of our member states.
14:15Which is something that we have been very successful at doing since 2024, launching the OSCE Institute, which reinforces capacities to address the educational transformation that we need, as an example.
14:27But many other projects that can be found online, the Greater South Information System.
14:32And as we started launching all of those projects, one by one, that is when, indeed, the strategic outlook had changed, which was, now there is something concrete to discuss with other organizations.
14:46Because I do not believe, Charles, in just MOUs, to sign agreements to say that we will cooperate.
14:53I believe in tangible cooperation.
14:56So what is your plan of action currently? What does it contain? What do you intend to do, let's say, in the next five or six years?
15:08And before you answer that question, how many partner organizations do you work with today, or member states, apart from your network?
15:19Member states apart from my network?
15:21How many countries do you network with today? Or how many organizations do you confederate with today?
15:31Well, your question is a very broad one, because the OSCE mandate is, again, very, very broad.
15:38Our underlying work, if I were to summarize it, is building a third way of development, from the South, by the South, yet for humanity, in the words of our constitutive charter.
15:49Of building knowledge-powered societies, which goes by democratizing access to knowledge, visibilizing research within our countries, reinforcing the capacities of our researchers and their networking capabilities.
16:05Building what we say, what we call shared green prosperity, which goes by consolidating the common leveraging union of borrowers, which was created in November 2023 by our member states, which are 28 currently, but growing, which is the world's first union of sovereign borrowers, in order to both collectively negotiate debt relief, should the country so wish, but also access fresh highly concessional finance.
16:33Of working towards, as well, intensifying South-South cooperation, because, you know, our countries of the South are extremely diverse, but we share some systemic challenges and aspirations.
16:47Literacy is not the only of the challenges, unfortunately, that we share across the three continents, but to intensify South-South cooperation, you must also strategically invest in the infrastructure to connect our countries.
17:01One of your core mandates is to help the countries of the South and most of your members to work out of this debt ceiling crisis in which they are found. How do you help accompanying them in that domain?
17:19Well, as I was mentioning, in November 2023, our member states created, by adopting the bylaws, the common leveraging union of borrowers, the club, which is again the world's only and first sovereign club of borrowers,
17:35which means the first platform with full-time teams dedicated to supporting the club through the decisions of the ministerial committee, which is composed of all the ministers of finance, who take decisions by consensus, to one, collectively negotiate debt relief, if they so decide.
17:53That is moving from dynamics of creditor coordination exclusively to dynamics of borrower coordination to achieve common objectives.
18:01But look, debt relief alone is futile. Day of debt relief plus one, our countries need new finance.
18:09And if that new finance comes with the same conditionalities, the same interest rates, the same maturities and the same grace periods or lack thereof, that led us to debt unsustainability in the first place, then our efforts will have been for naught.
18:23And so the club acts as well as an innovative mechanism for member states to secure fresh highly concessional finance in six strategic areas.
18:33And I mention those six strategic areas because it's very important for your viewers to hear all of them because the issue of debt is that we must address the structural drivers of our economic dependencies.
18:47And the structural drivers of our economic dependencies is that we are countries that have not yet achieved food sovereignty, have not yet achieved high-value-added industrialization, have not yet achieved energy sovereignty, which means we are net exporters of raw or intermediary materials, net importers of high-value-added products.
19:11And therefore these six strategic areas are balanced and inclusive education systems, as you'll appreciate, no development without education.
19:20Integral health systems, where we have to speak of preventative care as much as curative medicine.
19:26Sustainable agriculture, and through that food sovereignty. And when I say food sovereignty, not necessarily nationally, it can be regionally as well.
19:35Renewable energies, and through that energy sovereignty. Infrastructure development, not only nationally but also the infrastructure that connects our countries better, that allows us to trade, to have people-to-people exchanges.
19:49And finally, high-value-added industrialization, that is high-value-added products that are not only produced here but transformed here.
20:00One global issue with local considerations, climate change. When I listen you talk with a lot of passion, this is one of the areas where governments across the chessboards are looking for definite solutions on how to provide the best solution to a cancer like that one.
20:23The green phone is virtually empty. Nobody seeks today to meet the target set out at the Paris Climate Change Day 2015 with the 100 billion yearly package to the countries that are, quote-unquote, called developing ones, since the North has polluted the world.
20:47Where do you come in to add as a voice of an advocate as an organization?
20:56Crucial aspect. Of course, there is no such a thing as a magical solution to such a complex problem.
21:03And of course, part of our role as the Organization of Southern Cooperation is linking up our countries to articulate not only common voices but put at their disposal a full-time secretariat, teams within the secretariat.
21:19We're establishing, in fact, by January 2025, the Office of Climate Action and Resilience Enhancement that precisely seeks to serve this, to do two things.
21:29Number one, within the framework of the Club, acts as an advocate within negotiations when it comes to, well, let's call it what it is, a spade a spade, climate reparations.
21:41But also, most crucially, to link up the various initiatives of the South when it comes to climate talks and climate positions.
21:51Because currently, unfortunately, the positions within the South tend to be very strong on the African front, on the Latin American front, on the Southeast Asian front.
22:03What's really lax is the bridges between. And this is really where the OSCE comes in.
22:07You can clearly understand that because the two largest ecological lungs of the world which balance the carbon dioxide system of the world today is basically the Congo basin found in Africa.
22:18And of course, Latin America, you are talking about the Amazon forest. So basically, you can understand why there is too much talk in those negotiations about Africa or a portion of…
22:28No, you misunderstood. You misunderstood what I said.
22:30I'm getting you. I'm getting you.
22:31No, no, what I'm saying is you have a strong African position which is good. You have a strong Latin American position which is good.
22:39What we need if we want to achieve what you are speaking about, which is getting the necessary reparations or payback of the debt, the climate debt that is caused by the North polluting and the South suffering,
22:53is of course linking up those positions that are not contradictory, linking up the positions of the Latin Americans with the Africans, with the Southeast Asians that share a common interest.
23:05And this is where the OSCE comes in. So what I am saying is not criticizing that we are speaking a lot of Africa or Latin America.
23:12I'm saying that is crucial that we must build the bridges.
23:16When your mandate ends, I don't know when you plan to leave the Organization of South Cooperation.
23:23I don't plan to leave. I have three years left, whether I like it or not.
23:27Yes, three years. How will you like the organization to remember you when you are not there?
23:33That is a very good question. And let me be provocative again. Nobody becomes the Secretary General of an intergovernmental organization to be remembered to.
23:42And I tell you this because most people cannot tell you who the first...
23:47This is the question which has to do with legacy.
23:50Yes, but listen to me. Most people will not be able to tell you who was the first Secretary General of the United Nations.
23:57And that's the United Nations, the largest intergovernmental organization in the world.
24:02So you do not become Secretary General of such an organization to be remembered.
24:06However, if you are asking me which I think is the only question I can actually answer that is similar to what you are saying is
24:14what would I like to have achieved whether I am remembered for it or not.
24:19And that is a strong institution that is not only capable of outlasting any given Secretary General
24:27but is finally able to give concrete, tangible, palpable answers to our people's aspirations for development.
24:36An organization that, yes, is intergovernmental but that is also efficient, that doesn't fall in excessive bureaucracy,
24:44that is responsive to its member states as well as their peoples.
24:49And I think that within the three years I have left constitutionally as Secretary General, it's non-renewable,
24:57the most important is to create a strong dynamic for this institution, this organization,
25:02towards contributing to the aspirations of member states with a recognition
25:08that an intergovernmental organization is not the end in and of itself.
25:13It is a means to an end.
25:16Finally, there are roughly 8 billion people in the world today according to the last United Nations count.
25:25And you and I are amongst.
25:28You are one of the fewest Saudi-born nationals I have interviewed
25:35who is so passionate about what he says, does and thinks.
25:42Personally, what are your life values and how do they impact the work you do?
25:51Let me just start by challenging slightly what you say.
25:56Well, perhaps of the people you interviewed.
25:58But I think it's very important to salute the youth of Saudi Arabia that are extremely passionate.
26:07Which you are of course part.
26:09And of which I am of course part.
26:11Just like the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
26:14Yes, but he's at another level.
26:16But what I want to ratify is the Saudi youth who are passionate.
26:23And you mentioned the Crown Prince who articulated a vision 2030
26:27that has mobilized youth and their passions for what they do to transform their country.
26:33Then you may like it or not like it in terms of what they are doing,
26:36but they are passionate and they are dedicated and they are honest.
26:40So I wanted to clarify that.
26:41I am a drop in the ocean, not the entirety of the ocean in a drop.
26:46And in this regard, my dear Charles,
26:53and your smile is always nice, I would suggest it.
26:57Beautiful.
26:59So, my dear Charles, look, I would think that I am always guided by perhaps three things.
27:06As it may sound very dramatic in my life.
27:12The first is a great feeling, again it might sound very dramatic, but it is very true.
27:20It is a profound feeling of love.
27:23And when I mean feeling of love, it is loving humanity with all its defects,
27:30all its terrible aspects, all its barbarity, but also all its elevation.
27:35Loving humanity, which leads you to the second thing, which is righteous anger.
27:41Righteous anger at injustice.
27:44Righteous anger at opportunities that are never provided to people only
27:52because they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
27:56And finally, a profound conviction that when we come together,
28:02that when we come together, there is no providential man,
28:06there is no man that saves humanity,
28:09that when we come together as a collective, that we can change the world for the better.
28:15And with that, we conclude the interview.
28:18The Secretary General of the Organization of Saudi Corporation,
28:22Sheikh Mansour Bin Monsalam of Saudi nationality,
28:27thank you very much indeed for being guest on my program.
28:30Shukran.
28:32Thank you Charles.