El presidente acusó al expresidente de hacer un golpe contra De la Rúa. El análisis político actual e histórico por parte de Julio Bárbaro.
"De la Rúa tenía miedo y Néstor metía miedo"
"De la Rúa se caía solo"
"Se está dando una fractura de todos los partidos"
"De la Rúa sostenía un 1 a 1 insostenible"
"En el 83 apareció la figura del operador"
"Macri era amigo de Bergoglio"
"La fiesta que se paga es la de los bancos"
"Menem destruyó al Estado"
"Llevamos 50 años de decadencia"
"Yo le hice juicio político a Isabel"
"Yo quería a Balbín en la fórmula"
"A Cristina le gustan los alcahuetes"
Seguí en #AndinoYLasNoticias
"De la Rúa tenía miedo y Néstor metía miedo"
"De la Rúa se caía solo"
"Se está dando una fractura de todos los partidos"
"De la Rúa sostenía un 1 a 1 insostenible"
"En el 83 apareció la figura del operador"
"Macri era amigo de Bergoglio"
"La fiesta que se paga es la de los bancos"
"Menem destruyó al Estado"
"Llevamos 50 años de decadencia"
"Yo le hice juicio político a Isabel"
"Yo quería a Balbín en la fórmula"
"A Cristina le gustan los alcahuetes"
Seguí en #AndinoYLasNoticias
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00President Javier Emilé's statements in the context of the event of the Mediterranean Foundation in the province of Córdoba referring to Alfonsín, saying more or less that they show him as the father of democracy, but he was a supporter of a coup. Let's hear it.
00:15We also had social indicators that were worse than those that were in December 2001, let's say, prior to the fall of convertibility and the coup d'état promoted by Dualde and Alfonsín,
00:38that paradoxically, Alfonsín, let's say, they show him as the father of democracy, being that he was a supporter of a coup d'état, but that evidently, specifying the debt to Clarín made him look like a hero.
00:59Well, Julio, what is your first reflection on this?
01:03That the man is an economist, and in economics I think he ignores a lot, but in politics he ignores everything.
01:11The question, first, Alfonsín is absolutely worthy of respect, second, the crisis is not raised by Alfonsín and Dualde, it is generated by the resignation of Chacho Álvarez,
01:25and basically what you and I cannot ask is why, in Cordoba, where there are Peronists and radicals, this man is going to be so absurd.
01:40So it is incomprehensible, even for him. The question is, is there rationality in his concept?
01:47You see, some people say, no, he is looking for ... I tell you with all frankness, I am 82 years old, it has been many years since I assumed that looking for or analyzing dementia with sanity drives you crazy.
02:05This is dementia, it has no legs or a head. And I say, I add one thing, I saw De La Rúa again after I fell, so I know something about him.
02:14Well, speaking of De La Rúa, because of course many radicals, his representative, the head of the radical bench of Loredo, who is also next to many of the issues raised by President Javier Milley, would criticize him.
02:29However, in the context of the journalistic work that one has to do, in the framework of the historical revisionism that President Javier Milley himself does, we find a document,
02:36actually part of a fragment of a program, which was called the Pandora Box of Maluk and Cuchi of 2003, where it is the former president himself, Fernando De La Rúa,
02:50who almost accuses Dualde and Alfonsín of having participated in the institutional coup. Please, let's put it on the air.
02:58The fact that it is found out in what state the unpaid debt of the provincial bank is, is that all this begins to grow, grow, grow, until it ends with that evil phrase of Eduardo Dualde on October 14, 2001,
03:15where he says, either the president changes, at that moment the president is De La Rúa, or we change the president. Which is what they end up doing, right?
03:22And it coincides with something that Alfonsín told me, that he told him. One day Alfonsín asks to see me and tells me, I have to tell you that I had an important conversation with Dualde,
03:36and he told me that this government is from the alliance, because the alliance won the elections. So the alliance has to end the government.
03:44The term of the constitutional mandate is very important. But he added to me, that yes, not with this president. We have to change the president.
03:56I told him that I did not agree. This is one thing that I reproach you, because Balvin would have sent you to hell.
04:04This is what corresponded in defense of me.
04:07But Alfonsín is a partner in this.
04:11Look, on May 15, 2001, in Clarín, from Brazil, Alfonsín declares, the public credit law does not have to come out because it is treason to the homeland.
04:22What the public credit law proposed, then Dualde did it and Kichler did it. Alfonsín does not find the time to betray the homeland.
04:28The problem is that Dualde did it.
04:31I can continue reading, on May 17, 2001, Carlos Rucaufa begins to speak in La Nación, you can find it in the newspapers.
04:38He begins to mention the possibility of a social explosion.
04:41On that same day in La Nación, on May 17, Lilita Carrió adds to Alfonsín's statements.
04:46Anup Sin arrives from the Monetary Fund and says, why do the Argentines intend to charge a salary equal to those of the first countries in the world?
04:52It must be devalued. I can continue reading.
04:55There are statements and Alfonsín and radicalism in the province of Buenos Aires, partners in dualism all the time.
05:00He was not in the coup, he did not promote it, but he thought that anything could be done.
05:06He had the bad taste of making a mistake.
05:09There is a fact that goes unnoticed.
05:15When he says the government is from the alliance, in reality the alliance had won the presidential formula and the vice president was no longer there.
05:23If it was from the alliance, it was De la Rúa or no one else.
05:27As this file began to circulate, where we are no longer us or my law,
05:35where it is De la Rúa himself who is angry and understands that there was a conciliatory agreement between Dualde and Alfonsín
05:44to direct a government towards the policies that they wanted to carry out,
05:49either with De la Rúa if he changed or if he did not have to change it.
05:52That is what sounds like an institutional coup.
05:57I had a program for a long time with Maluk and Cuchi, a person I appreciate and respect.
06:04I think De la Rúa fell alone.
06:08But that's not why he had to let him fall.
06:12It seems that some support the fact that if he fell alone, bye.
06:17They did not help him fall.
06:19What Dualde and Alfonsín managed to do is that the fall did not destroy society.
06:28But De la Rúa, whom I know from 1973,
06:35was a character who was not able to govern with the same buttons.
06:44But that can be very subjective.
06:47But then society voted for him, Julio.
06:50We all voted for him and I was always his friend.
06:53But I want to tell you, with the same buttons.
06:56De la Rúa was afraid of me and Kirchner was afraid of me.
06:59In other words, governing is a conscience.
07:02It is not a place where they install you and keep you.
07:05I did everything to help De la Rúa.
07:09I grabbed his minister of security.
07:14I told him, we want to do something.
07:17And he told me, I'm reading La Vida de las Balleras.
07:20He's in jail.
07:23He literally told you, I'm reading a book.
07:27It was in the Palacio de la Papa Frita.
07:29I approached him and told him, we are many who want to support.
07:34He showed me the magazine and told me, I'm reading La Vida de las Balleras.
07:37Enrique killed him.
07:40Julio.
07:43It is likely that the vision we had about the end of De la Rúa's government
07:48was that he went to visit Tinelli and that he did not know where to get out of the studio.
07:52Now, the discussion is another.
07:55In these statements that De la Rúa makes 21 years ago,
07:59it gives the feeling that he has a problem with Dualde from another party.
08:03Towards Alfonsín himself.
08:06From there is where President Milley is taken to make these statements.
08:11The problem is the utility.
08:14What sense does it make for an impoverished and fractured Argentina
08:19that we are going to revive discussions that have no way out?
08:23Maybe for Milley it is to get off the pantheon.
08:28No, it is to expel the radicals who support him.
08:32In other words, what he is doing is losing adherents.
08:37People who played for him, who voted for him.
08:41But you think, Julio, that these statements can cost him that support?
08:45But how are they going to cost him?
08:47What does De Loredo say?
08:49What does the mayor of Cordoba say?
08:52Basically, if you are supporting and they tell you that your party is of idiots, what do you do?
08:59So, what is happening in Argentina is an outbreak of Peronism,
09:04of pro, of radicalism and of the government.
09:08Because yesterday, when this chancellor left, who said that all the Chinese are the same,
09:12and something that is important for humanity, this anthropological discovery,
09:16I mean, we go through ridicule as if it were a way of sobriety.
09:23Yes, let's see.
09:24Sorry, let's not lose focus on the economic issue,
09:28because the truth is that what the president does not want in any way today is that there is a devaluation.
09:33And what came from the change of government, the president going to coup d'état,
09:37or another, you can say, legislative assembly, which was what happened,
09:41the interpretation that you want to give him, what came after that was devaluation,
09:45what the president said, that the debts of the economic groups were eroded,
09:48he points to the Clarín group, but the debts were eroded in dollars to all the economic groups.
09:52And from there came, from the 40 years of democracy that he took forward,
09:57the most pronounced economic recovery process in history.
10:01I do not want to say that it is good or bad, the regular.
10:04But the one-to-one was not banned by anyone.
10:06That is the objective fact. After that, the economic recovery process
10:09was the longest and most sustainable in history.
10:12Exactly, this is the fact.
10:14That is, he maintained the one-to-one, which was unsustainable,
10:18and to believe that it was for Clarín.
10:20Look, I'm not from Clarín.
10:22It's stupidity that four disabled people say.
10:26But Julio, let's see, obviously,
10:29what I don't want is to get out of the axis, because what one wants,
10:33to get someone out of the presidency,
10:36is to vote in the middle term or to vote when the president is elected.
10:39What is understood here is that there was a desire,
10:43and already a pre-agreement, that De la Rúa was not going to finish his term.
10:47And that is the reproach that De la Rúa is making
10:50in accordance with what the president said.
10:52Do you understand what I'm saying?
10:54The potluck was never understood.
10:57I was alone in my house in Libertad and Santa Fe.
11:02And I grabbed the phone and called Carmela, my daughter,
11:05who lived 50 blocks away.
11:07That collective fact was never understood.
11:11And that was not for two or three lives.
11:13No, no, that was a reaction to a character's failure.
11:17That when he said, state of the place, there was a reaction.
11:22And that is the fall of De la Rúa.
11:24Not what Dualde and Alfonsín say.
11:27It is society in the mess.
11:29Okay, but what makes De la Rúa understand is that
11:32if Dualde and Alfonsín, instead of supposedly telling him,
11:36let's suppose this is true,
11:38that Dualde said, either change De la Rúa or change the president.
11:41What makes De la Rúa understand is,
11:43if they had helped me not to fall,
11:44instead of putting me between the sword and the wall,
11:47I would have finished my term.
11:49I think that is the message, Julio.
11:51Yes, but all those who went, we went and tried.
11:56You were like that.
11:58Adrián Sandoval used to tell me, poor thing,
12:00who was president of the block,
12:02that he would have to do this and that.
12:06And he called his son.
12:08He made him talk to his son.
12:10Poor thing, what are we going to do?
12:11And for him to explain it is one thing.
12:15The reality is that he was expelled from his city.
12:18The rest is all conspiracy theory.
12:22Well, but...
12:24This is why I like to talk to you, Julio,
12:26because there is also a collective thought,
12:30you are Isla Ramos, right?
12:32When the president is Peronist, he finishes his term,
12:36which was broken by Macri after Alvear,
12:38which ended in 1928.
12:39But when the president is radical,
12:41and if things go wrong, he doesn't finish.
12:45Let's put the last one, Alberto Fernández.
12:49Disaster.
12:51But what happens?
12:53In analog circumstances,
12:55this guy cannot govern or the consortium.
12:57However, he finished.
12:59Fortunately.
13:01After Peron, Frondizi falls,
13:04and after Frondizi, Ilia falls.
13:06And those defeats are not taken into account,
13:09the Peronism does not defeat him.
13:11That is, the dictatorship thinks that Peron is a Democrat,
13:16but it proves that the Democrats are not them.
13:19That lasts until the 73rd part,
13:23where a Lannuzzi or a Leaviston were patriotic military.
13:29I mean, with Leaviston, the Minister of Economy was Aldo Ferrer.
13:35And his rival was the second.
13:37If there was a conception, there was 5% unemployment.
13:42Sorry, Ilia falls with a growth of the country between 9% and 10%.
13:46And a Minister of Health, Moña Tibia, who is a luxury.
13:50In a year he had 11% growth, Ilia.
13:53Well, there is no Peronism,
13:57Peronism was in the exerion, there was no cell phone, no jorobemo.
14:01But going back ...
14:03No, but sorry, a minor detail.
14:04The vote in white almost won the elections.
14:07Which was, when Peron sent you to vote in white,
14:10it was like turning your back on him.
14:12When Peron tells them, they ask him in an important interview,
14:16General, the votes in white were majority.
14:19And the General looks at them and says, the loyal are those.
14:22Of course, of course.
14:24I gave the order.
14:26It was also a message, but I do not want to go so far back,
14:28because I also want to talk about these issues.
14:30What I say is that the President, look,
14:31what he puts on the carpet is a controversy
14:33that was almost not installed,
14:35because in the general conception, Alfonsín is the father of democracy
14:38and he went through a hyperinflationary process.
14:42In 1989, not helped by Peronism, but quite the opposite.
14:48What is the use of what he puts on the table?
14:51He does not know what hate to look for,
14:53what resentment to find.
14:55It's grotesque.
14:57It was done because we voted,
14:59because we did not vote with the United States and Israel.
15:02Peron or Braden, do you remember Braden or Peron?
15:05Yes, I remember.
15:07Let's say, when the empire was important,
15:09we faced it with Peron.
15:11Now that the Chinese are looking down,
15:15we are going to hug them.
15:17Okay, but there you have it, Julio.
15:19Let's go to Mondino, let's change the subject.
15:21It is logical that a minister responds to the president.
15:24It is as if Minister Caputo
15:27carries out an economic policy
15:30and that dissents with the president.
15:32It lasts two minutes.
15:34In this case, the Chancellery is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs
15:37and if Diana Mondino votes against
15:40what the president proposes today
15:42in alliance with the United States and Israel,
15:44you have to kick her out.
15:46Sorry, the president,
15:48by altering the historical conduct of Argentina,
15:51puts his leg up to his ass.
15:53But it is his policy, Julio.
15:55It is not his policy.
15:57What do you mean? It is his foreign policy.
15:59Itamaraty is superior to Bolsonaro and Lula,
16:01that's why they are a country.
16:03This poor boy,
16:05it's not that he has a policy,
16:07he has a disguise in his head.
16:09The guy who went up saying
16:11I'm not going to sell to the Chinese because they are communists
16:13and he is hugging the Chinese because they are communists.
16:15Julio, okay, let's see.
16:17I want to say that the changes of thought
16:18in politicians,
16:20what they say in the campaign,
16:22it is not inherent only to Millet,
16:24but it concerns many.
16:26Remember the phrase of President Menem.
16:28I had to change because if I told the truth,
16:30they wouldn't vote for me.
16:32Menem was a mess.
16:34Menem was the worst thing that happened to Argentina.
16:36But it stands out as the best years of the economy
16:38in the first presidency.
16:40If you sell your car and your apartment,
16:42you always have some free years.
16:44Then when they run out,
16:46you have Menem.
16:48He gave away his phone.
16:50He destroyed the railroad.
16:52The only case in history.
16:54Privatizing is destroying.
16:56He gave away everything.
16:58And misery is born in Menem.
17:00The disappeared in the dictatorship
17:02and misery in Menem.
17:04And then comes Nestor Kirchner
17:06with tailwind and everything in his favor.
17:09Why did poverty and misery continue to grow?
17:12Why does Macri win after Kirchner and Cristina's governments?
17:16Nestor Lemparda.
17:18I think it's time to say something from Melconian.
17:21The Canuto.
17:23We were growing.
17:25However, we all had free light.
17:28The Canuto was made by Macri
17:30with the 47,000 pesos they lent him
17:32to make it last 20 years.
17:34But you're being peronist today.
17:36Not objective.
17:38Julio, with respect, I tell you,
17:40this is what I want from you.
17:42Objective.
17:44When you talk about politics.
17:46But that's why I like to invite Julio.
17:48Because, frankly,
17:50Argentina has been decadent for 50 years.
17:53Yes.
17:55And that decadence has a piece of guilt for each of us.
17:58Yes.
18:00Peronism with Menem and Kirchner
18:02was more guilty than radicalism
18:05with Alfonsino and De la Rúa.
18:07Now, I supported Macri.
18:09I voted for Macri.
18:11And I accompanied him.
18:13And I told him,
18:15Durán Barbe, Marquitos Peña,
18:16Son el Grotesco.
18:18Because the drama here
18:20is that they lack faith, sleep.
18:22They need coaching.
18:24And I always say
18:26coaching is, in politics,
18:28what botox is to female beauty.
18:30Julio, you just said you're 82 years old.
18:33You said in the court,
18:35a life lived very well.
18:37And you know a lot about politics.
18:39Politics is recycled, changed.
18:41And we're always talking about
18:43the same thing Guillermo said.
18:44Did you ever regret
18:46voting in your life
18:48for a president
18:50you didn't regret voting for?
18:52I regretted everything.
18:54I regretted more the votes
18:56than the marriages.
18:58And who disappointed you more?
19:00Wait, wait.
19:02I'm going to give you a break.
19:04Did you vote for Peron in 1973?
19:06I was a congressman.
19:08Well, you didn't regret it.
19:10No.
19:11No, until the death of the general.
19:13Well, no.
19:15I'm telling you this to save your life.
19:17Yes.
19:19Then we have an exile.
19:21At that moment,
19:23the dream was the wise and the hero.
19:25I didn't believe in the search.
19:27When I became a congressman again in 1983,
19:29the operator appeared.
19:31The intermediary between business and politics.
19:33And the amount of people
19:35who have become rich with politics.
19:37Yes.
19:39Now Julio, something you said before.
19:41That it helps you get there,
19:43but it doesn't help you govern.
19:45And there you put Durán Barba and Peña.
19:47I think that...
19:49Because you said, I banked Macri.
19:51Julio Barba is telling you, I banked Macri.
19:53But after Macri, what is he saying?
19:55That if he had done politics
19:57and not been dedicated to purism,
19:59maybe he would have repeated his mandate?
20:01There is a disease that is coaching.
20:03And they have it all.
20:05The coaching in the Excel spreadsheets.
20:07Of course.
20:09That's not politics.
20:11Now, if you don't have talent
20:13and you look for a critic,
20:15and you find a critic out of nowhere,
20:17Argentina doesn't have fans for politics.
20:20I used to tell him,
20:22Mauricio, leave Brice and football.
20:25This is dedicating your life.
20:27Lula is...
20:29The elections of Uruguay on Sunday,
20:31didn't they make you jealous?
20:33Yes, yes. Uruguay makes me jealous.
20:35Uruguay.
20:37And Brazil makes me jealous.
20:39Of course, of course.
20:41Uruguay makes me jealous.
20:43Yes.
20:45But our candidacy is not like Tamaraty.
20:47It's good, but it's not...
20:49It's pendular, depending on the policy,
20:51on the relations they want to impose on the president.
20:53They are very well trained.
20:55Of course.
20:57The school of those boys
20:59is the most demanding in Argentina.
21:01Yes.
21:03And then you put a cachivache
21:05that tells you that all the Chinese are the same.
21:07Or the one that Mauricio Macri had put.
21:09Malcorra.
21:11Yes.
21:13I remember that when Macri took over,
21:15Macri was a friend of the Pope,
21:17of Cardinal Bergoglio.
21:19He was a friend.
21:21Of course, because the two resisted...
21:23Yes, yes, yes, yes.
21:25These aggressions.
21:27Let's remember that Ernesto Urquínez said
21:29that the main political opponent was Bergoglio.
21:31Yes.
21:33No, I say because later when he went to see him,
21:35the face of Tuge he had with Macri was infernal.
21:37Not like that with Cristina.
21:39No, but the face...
21:41And then Mauricio says...
21:43They ask him about the relationship with the Pope.
21:45Who is going to manage it?
21:47The Chancellery.
21:49And the Holy Father tells me...
21:51One day I say that the relationship...
21:53Are you friends with Bergoglio?
21:55On the 14th he told me...
21:57He gives me one hour a year.
21:59How much?
22:01One hour...
22:03What a privilege.
22:05Do I recognize it?
22:07It's a privilege.
22:09It's a gift of life.
22:11If I tell you that the relationship with the Pope
22:13is going to be managed by my secretary,
22:15it's because I stopped respecting him.
22:17Of course.
22:19It's absurd.
22:21Then he comes to me and I told him.
22:23I said, I have Mauricio, I have Mauricio.
22:25What do I do with the Pope?
22:27How about the Chancellery?
22:29Mauricio is a good guy.
22:31He's not a racist politician either.
22:33The last racist politician was Raúl Alfonsín.
22:35The last one.
22:37Néstor wasn't either.
22:39Oh, no?
22:41The guy who had been around all his life,
22:43who never signed a body,
22:45who never had to...
22:47Cristina is mine.
22:49But we're not going to get into that.
22:51The last one, trained in foreign policy,
22:53was Raúl Alfonsín.
22:55And not respecting him today,
22:57and starting to argue.
22:59What's the point?
23:01Let's see, probably because it's a story
23:03that has been going on for many years.
23:05Right here, I'm running programs.
23:07My law always opposed his ideas.
23:09I called him the hyperinflationary
23:11of the country.
23:13Let's see, he didn't like it,
23:15so Alfonsín left a legacy,
23:17if you will,
23:19of the impoverishment of the country
23:21when he left.
23:23Then, obviously,
23:25the father of the country reiterated
23:27that he is in another plane of discussion.
23:29And he is in another plane of discussion
23:31about what he said,
23:33with statements that we heard
23:35from De La Rúa himself.
23:37But beyond that,
23:39let's go to the 10 months
23:41of his presidency.
23:43What's going on?
23:45Inflation is going down,
23:47that's a fact.
23:49Inflation is the main tax
23:51that the poor have.
23:53Food consumption is also going down.
23:55That's why I'm telling you.
23:57Let's suppose,
23:59you said he is a president,
24:01economically speaking,
24:03that history starts to turn around,
24:05that he reactivates consumption,
24:07that he reactivates himself.
24:09What do we do?
24:11I don't want to keep declaring
24:13that it's serious,
24:15but people's criteria
24:17when it comes to voting in a year
24:19is going to be the pocket.
24:21It's the stupid economy, they say.
24:23What I'm telling you is,
24:25for me, definitive.
24:27How many times they tried the same thing,
24:29how many times they failed.
24:31In other words,
24:33when Macri entered that project,
24:35it lasted four years.
24:37He won the middlemen.
24:39My law cannot win the middlemen.
24:41The economy stops growing.
24:43The solidity of the currency
24:45didn't save any country in humanity.
24:47We're not going to invent gunpowder.
24:50Then they show you,
24:52consumption of oil,
24:54of fuel,
24:56went down by 20 percent.
24:58By 20 percent.
25:00The streets,
25:02you see people,
25:04people...
25:06But Milenio had to do this
25:08paying for the party.
25:09The party that pays...
25:11The party of the little machine,
25:13of the fantasy economy,
25:15of the silver plan, Julio.
25:17The party that pays
25:19is the one the banks are taking.
25:21That's the party that pays.
25:23In a society
25:25where banks take their fortunes
25:27and whiten every now and then,
25:29the party is financial.
25:31The Argentine party
25:33is the banks.
25:35Before the banks,
25:37there was industry.
25:39We have an infinite debt
25:41and they leave us 47,000 sticks of debt.
25:44Isabel had left 6,000.
25:46The real party
25:48is that the bank
25:50doesn't give you profit for your money,
25:52nor does it give you a loan
25:54if you want to incentivize your company.
25:56The kiosks
25:58are from the banks.
26:00The kiosks,
26:02the butchers, the bakeries,
26:04the pharmacy.
26:06I know it's counterfactual,
26:07but today you have a country's risk.
26:09I don't know about now,
26:11but the country's risk is going down.
26:13It's about 900%.
26:15It's actually good for you to get a loan.
26:17Yes.
26:19The rate in the United States
26:21is 9%.
26:23It's supposed to go down.
26:25But I insist,
26:27it's for you to get a loan.
26:29More than a loan,
26:31what we need is...
26:33Let me get to this point.
26:34You're going to do something
26:36very different from what Milet is doing.
26:38That's not true.
26:40We don't know.
26:42First of all,
26:44the world came out Keynesian.
26:46No one experienced a shrinking to emerge.
26:48But Milet was already saying
26:50there was no money.
26:52And he was voted out.
26:54Voting after Alberto
26:56was fleeing,
26:58not choosing.
27:00It was escaping.
27:01That's how it is.
27:03Now, that vote...
27:05I found myself
27:0710 days ago
27:09having lunch with a pollster
27:11and I saw another one
27:13whom I admire,
27:15his name is Hugo Ayme.
27:17And Hugo said,
27:19do you know what happens?
27:21He said to the other one,
27:23that when you make the universe,
27:25you don't put 52% of the poor.
27:27And if when you poll,
27:29you don't include 52% of the poor,
27:31you don't include 52% of the rich.
27:33And he said,
27:35Julio,
27:37we can't not agree
27:39with the most important
27:41organisms,
27:43with the ones who screw it up,
27:45with the corruption.
27:47Things happened here.
27:49When Perón came back,
27:51he said,
27:53I left 250 people in Casa Rosario
27:55and there are 2,500.
27:57100% of the country.
27:59And that went
28:01like this.
28:03When Turko Menem came,
28:05he destroyed the state,
28:07he left the people in the streets.
28:09And then came the Kirchner,
28:11who Nestor has one logic
28:13and Cristina another.
28:15But aside from that,
28:17there are 50 years of decadence.
28:19Then, if you want,
28:21where was it worse?
28:23But those are details.
28:2550 years of decadence,
28:27Guillermo,
28:29that if we make history,
28:31we have to talk about
28:33the situation of the retirees.
28:35That's why the situation of the retirees
28:37is not going to be fixed
28:39in a single government.
28:41Because the issue
28:43went from being circumstantial
28:45to being a structural issue.
28:47You have a serious structural problem
28:49with the issue of the retirees.
28:51I can remind you
28:53of each stony measure
28:55of each government,
28:57not of 50 years,
28:59but of 30 that I have in the media.
29:01When did the money go to the retirees?
29:03At the time of Nestor Kirchner.
29:05But the question is why?
29:07Why?
29:09Because the inflation was not so high?
29:11No, no.
29:13Because the economy was growing?
29:15No, Lucio.
29:17Because the economy was growing
29:19and because the retirements
29:21were growing above the inflation?
29:23Lucio, we were so bad
29:25that a man named Remy Lenikoff came,
29:27then a man named Lavaña came,
29:29they fixed the fire,
29:31and what happened
29:33was good next to the disaster
29:35of La Rúa.
29:37Let's go back to De La Rúa.
29:39I don't know,
29:41do we agree with that, Julio?
29:43When you are not so bad,
29:45they throw you in a ditch and say...
29:47Yesterday Remy spoke.
29:49Well, for me it was not just Remy,
29:51it was Sargini,
29:53Aldo Pignanelli,
29:55a team that did...
29:57Mario Blecher.
29:59They were a luxury team.
30:01I met Rome and Madrid
30:03when they were two cities
30:05poorer than Buenos Aires.
30:07It's to cry, it's to cry.
30:09When Argentina generated
30:1150% of the continent's wealth
30:13and Brazil 20%.
30:15Yes.
30:17Brazil never stopped growing.
30:19Never.
30:21Never.
30:23And it never started to argue
30:25with the dictatorship.
30:27It is clear that the indicators
30:29of the countries that surround us
30:31are not so good.
30:33I'm not even talking about
30:35institutional coups.
30:37I'm talking about Peru,
30:39any country.
30:41Chile is an example.
30:43Chile, not to mention.
30:45Now, what do you think
30:47of the historical claim
30:49that the vice president
30:51made about the figure
30:53of Isabel Perón,
30:55harmful to the majority
30:57of Argentines.
30:59An error attributed to the general
31:01opinion of the vice president.
31:03But that Isabel,
31:05and López Rega more than anything,
31:07already managed the fate
31:09of what was going to be
31:11the disaster of this country.
31:13It's a story in which
31:15I was a national congressman
31:17and I voted for Balvin.
31:19You wanted the formula
31:21to be Perón-Balvin.
31:23One of those who were against
31:25was Alfonso Silva.
31:27It's a detail.
31:29Well, he was on the other line.
31:31Roca Mora, Ferdinando Pedrini.
31:33The formula is Perón-Isabel.
31:35He stands up and says,
31:37gentlemen,
31:39nepotism fights it
31:41even in Africa.
31:43And he doesn't want to come
31:45to the Cervantes,
31:47where we are.
31:49And the formula had been
31:51proposed by Norma Kennedy.
31:53And the great defender
31:55was Lorenzo Miguel,
31:57who never understood anything.
31:58We support Balvin.
32:00And if Perón dies,
32:02we have President Balvin.
32:04But you saved democracy.
32:06Why?
32:08Because this formula
32:10wanted to conform
32:12knowing that Perón
32:14had a few years left.
32:16And that he could die
32:18during the presidency.
32:20In fact, it happened.
32:22Five or six of us
32:24did a political trial
32:26with López Rega.
32:28And his jail
32:30and silence
32:32were respectable.
32:34This is another issue.
32:36I tell you,
32:38we should leave
32:40a vice-president like Isabel Perón.
32:42But what Victoria Villarroel does
32:44is different.
32:46Why?
32:48Because she is not,
32:50let's say,
32:52the jail,
32:54the overthrow,
32:56let's say,
32:58the overthrow.
33:00Did she deserve it?
33:02Yes, of course.
33:04If she deserved it,
33:06obviously she deserved it.
33:08If she was in that position
33:10or deserved to occupy that place,
33:12or because she was imprisoned
33:14by the dictatorship,
33:16she was out.
33:18No, no, no.
33:20The dictatorship overthrows her.
33:22No, obviously.
33:24But you say she deserved to go
33:26to the formula.
33:28She deserves political merit.
33:30I wanted Valdez.
33:32You know what Valdez was.
33:34I fought for her
33:36and I never greeted her.
33:38But there you have the example
33:40of the little greatness
33:42that politics has in Argentina.
33:44Politics in Argentina
33:46has a destructive essence.
33:48Or that thing of
33:50I come to power
33:52and if I can,
33:54I stay forever.
33:56That is the permanent message
33:58that politics makes them rich.
34:00So to make them rich
34:02they turn right-wing.
34:04And being rich gives you power.
34:06Don't tell me there are no left-wing rich people.
34:08Yes, but...
34:10Please, Julio.
34:12The worst are...
34:14There are some who throw the wink
34:16to the right and get involved.
34:18Those are swindlers.
34:20But the worst are the poor conservatives.
34:22I have a friend who is a conservative.
34:24In Spain they say left-wing caviar.
34:26Of course.
34:28No, no, no.
34:30No, no, no.
34:32Are there left-wing businessmen?
34:34I'm saying something else.
34:36I'm talking about friends or acquaintances
34:38who become rich
34:40and turn right-wing.
34:42They assume.
34:44They become conservatives
34:46because they have something to keep.
34:48The tragedy is that
34:50to become rich
34:52you need a lot of political ties.
34:54Today and for many years
34:56Argentina is that.
34:58It used to be left-wing.
35:00If you have political ties
35:02it's hard to get rich.
35:04I asked for Bungibor
35:06which was the project
35:08of national bourgeoisie.
35:10And the south said,
35:12no, treason.
35:14It was a national bourgeoisie project
35:16that exceeded the different governments.
35:18It was a project of conservatives,
35:20Peronism, radicals,
35:22military...
35:24Peronism and capital
35:26never got along.
35:28Cristina?
35:30Cristina started to see the field
35:32and the industrialists as enemies.
35:34Cristina revives the old left.
35:36Pieces of the mountains
35:38that were never used for anything,
35:40not even for spying.
35:42The Berbick dog
35:44and all those guys
35:46who are more buttons than revolutionaries.
35:48Today she came sharp.
35:50She was the sharpener here
35:52in Firoi.
35:54She claims that
35:56and sectors of the left.
35:58It's like all sects
36:00limits and expels.
36:02Peron said,
36:04only from the center.
36:06Cristina tried to lead
36:08from the left.
36:10But did she believe that?
36:12Or did she do it
36:14as a method of management?
36:16No, she didn't believe it.
36:18But she liked it.
36:20She always hated Peron.
36:22And today she's fighting
36:24to be the president
36:26of the party created by Peron.
36:28These are the political contractions.
36:30How do you see that?
36:32How do you see that someone
36:34has stood up to her like Quintela?
36:36That Cristina is angry
36:38because even Kicillof himself
36:40was never explicit in his support?
36:42Nobody supports her.
36:44I was with her, Néstor Alberto Fernández
36:46and Ivana, we were 5 or 6
36:48when Menem
36:50touches 30%
36:52and we knew they had 70% against.
36:54That was 2003.
36:56If Néstor leaves,
36:58it's the end of the first round
37:00and in the second
37:02the Turk doesn't show up.
37:04No.
37:06And that's Cristina's situation today.
37:08Cristina ends up like Menem
37:10walking with no respect
37:12in a Senate
37:14that is isolated.
37:16Because in that, Alfonsín
37:18was recovered
37:20by society as an image.
37:22And who is the emergent
37:24of justice today?
37:26There is no one.
37:28I don't know.
37:30Kicillof is a Peronist.
37:32No, but it doesn't matter.
37:34You have to be a patriot.
37:36It doesn't matter.
37:38I don't care.
37:40I like patriots.
37:42Talk to me about Sartllora.
37:44Sartllora is a guy
37:46that the Peronism of Cordage
37:48does it from the sota.
37:50He never let the virus
37:52of kindergarten touch him.
37:54That's why they survived.
37:56They are free of virus.
37:58They are free.
38:00But I think the governors
38:02are more than the parties.
38:04Pujaro and Sartllora
38:06are more than Peronism
38:08and Radicalism.
38:10Because they have...
38:12The strength that the administration
38:14gives you of a good government.
38:16Kicillof has his.
38:18If he prevents Cristina
38:20from stepping on the boat
38:22and sinks it, he survives.
38:24But there is no other remedy.
38:26He can't re-elect.
38:28He can't re-elect Humberto Fernandez.
38:30Do you understand?
38:32Or the new Voodoo.
38:34Or the new Sion.
38:36Everything he elected.
38:38Because he likes the Alcahuetes.
38:40And the politicians
38:42do the talented.
38:44But Julio, speaking of that.
38:46What differential
38:48can have the speech
38:50of Kicillof and Cristina
38:52when yesterday we said
38:54with Marangoni
38:56that you listen to the speeches
38:58of Cristina.
39:00I think that Kicillof
39:02has a conception of politics
39:04that is very different
39:06from Cristina's.
39:08He doesn't have a lot of Alcahuetes.
39:10He doesn't have La Cámpora.
39:12Who knows how to call La Cámpora?
39:14Who invented La Cámpora?
39:16They chose the wrong name.
39:18But what is left of La Cámpora?
39:20What is left of La Cámpora?
39:22He has a lot of Alcahuetes
39:24and some confused mayor.
39:26But there is nothing more than that.
39:28Who would Kicillof be?
39:30Who?
39:32La Matanza.
39:34The thing is that there is also
39:36something of identity.
39:38When you send certain characters
39:40to La Matanza,
39:42you see it in Grindetti,
39:44it lasted a period.
39:46In other words,
39:48Argentina has a very strong
39:50identity problem.
39:52The morons are morons.
39:54You send a blond man to Joselito
39:56and he doesn't vote for you.
39:58That's the thing.
40:00Julio, let's hear one thing.
40:02He says the worst,
40:04or very directly.
40:06Julio, do you agree with something
40:08that a lot of people,
40:10to criticize Peronism,
40:12say that Peronism has become
40:14a party that has strength in La Matanza
40:16and elsewhere.
40:18No, in the third section.
40:20In the third electoral section.
40:22Historically, it's the humble ones.
40:24La Cámpora is the middle class.
40:26But the thing is that
40:28I don't know what they say, but it's true.
40:30And one of them told me,
40:32because it's the only piece of the past
40:34that deserves to be recovered.
40:36Okay, explain to me the humble streak...
40:38And that was...
40:40Why are you going to recover?
40:42Okay, but explain to me the humble streak
40:44that voted a lot for Javier Milega.
40:46Because I voted for Macri,
40:48and I'm not humble.
40:50They have conscience,
40:52to tear down the chimerism, everything is worth it.
40:54But mysticism is still held by Cristina.
40:56No, no, fanaticism.
40:58The mysticism that Javier Milega has today
41:00with the young people,
41:02he has it with those above 30 years old,
41:04Cristina, they follow her everywhere.
41:0620%. That 20% is fanatic.
41:08You're saying that monolithically,
41:10he has 20% of the votes?
41:12He accepts it.
41:14But if it's down, both go down.
41:16Milega goes down and Cristina goes down.
41:18So it's not so difficult for him to have
41:20a good election,
41:22national officialism, next year,
41:24it's impossible.
41:26I don't know a poor man to vote for the one
41:28who made them poor.
41:30Humanity is not known.
41:32Well, that's why, Julio,
41:34a year from now,
41:36we have waited for so many people,
41:38we have to wait to see if this goes up a little.
41:40I bet it doesn't go up.
41:42The green vote is not coming.
41:44But to bet?
41:46What is the scenario of 2025?
41:48It's going to be such a political year.
41:50Julio, with respect, did you bet or did you wish?
41:52No, no.
41:54Rousseau said that in most men
41:56convictions correspond to conveniences.
41:58I don't like this guy.
42:00Nobody likes it if it goes wrong, Milega.
42:02I don't want it to go wrong.
42:04Now, if he goes to Cordoba
42:06to speak ill of Alfonso, he's an idiot.
42:08What does he want?
42:10Because the coin also has to do
42:12with the brain and the right.
42:14But Julio, Julio, he's someone,
42:16let's respect the investigation,
42:18he's someone who expresses his ideas
42:20about a very important person.
42:22He doesn't respect society,
42:24that's why I don't respect him.
42:26But you, let's see,
42:28he makes us discuss this
42:30and that we have an audio
42:32from La Rúa almost refuting
42:34what Milega said.
42:36Yes, but the issue is ...
42:38It's from La Rúa, not us.
42:40He is checking his space, Guillermo.
42:42Yes.
42:44Let's say a guy who shoots himself
42:46in the feet, he's crazy.
42:48But he's checking his space.
42:50He makes a big mess
42:52because he got to the third
42:54of the parliament.
42:56Well, obviously,
42:58because people voted for my law,
43:00but they didn't worry about an armed man.
43:02But we'll see what happens next year.
43:04Now, Ricardo Alfonsín,
43:06there he is, look.
43:08The barbarities that the president of Burry,
43:10Caputo, the ex-president Macri said,
43:12and other barbarities that I don't want to repeat.
43:14Now he says the opposite of them,
43:16he says Ricardo Alfonsín is more credible.
43:18Yes.
43:20He's a good person,
43:22I don't agree with him, but I respect him.
43:24In what do you disagree?
43:26In his step to Kirchnerism?
43:28In his step to Kirchnerism, yes.
43:30Also, what Ricardo Alfonsín says
43:32with all due respect,
43:34can be criticized by him.
43:36Yes, obviously.
43:38I voted for Macri,
43:40I'm a Peronist.
43:42History has shown me
43:44that I'm more credible and worse.
43:46So, I'm saved.
43:48Your mistake has been justified.
43:50But we can't know
43:52because he wasn't.
43:54He was the president that wasn't.
43:56No, but that was Caputo.
43:58Because of the ups and downs.
44:00Ups and downs,
44:02in a cramped championship,
44:04he came first.
44:06But did he help your friend Néstor Kirchner win in 2003?
44:08No, he didn't.
44:10He didn't have the votes of the city?
44:12I think he helped La Baña more.
44:14I remember the kidnapping, Julio.
44:16I think he helped La Baña more in 2003.
44:18Well, yes, of course.
44:20But, sorry,
44:22Néstor Kirchner wouldn't have
44:24voted for Scioli
44:26if he didn't agree with Kirchnerism.
44:28Don't vote for him.
44:30I discussed it with him.
44:32And how did it come to this?
44:34Néstor's issue was his insecurity.
44:36Néstor chose him as the second Alcahuete.
44:38And I made such a mess
44:40that I wrote a sheet
44:42on page 12.
44:44Because the problem for me
44:46in choosing Scioli
44:48was to go back to Kirchner's phalanx.
44:50People who come
44:52from outside politics
44:54and have nothing to do
44:56with the idea.
44:58This is the degradation...
45:00Well, Julio, let's not simplify it.
45:02Loller Reutemann
45:04is remembered today for his good governance.
45:06But Loller was better.
45:08But he came from another country.
45:10But it's a coincidence.
45:12Loller was a gentleman.
45:14I went to see him to be a candidate.
45:16A presidential candidate in 2013?
45:18Yes.
45:20When he said,
45:22I saw things I didn't like.
45:24We never knew why he wasn't a candidate.
45:26He said, Julio,
45:28if in my first government
45:30there was more wealth than in the second,
45:32we are impoverishing the country.
45:34He was a gentleman,
45:36a guy who didn't...
45:38Because if not,
45:40you go charge after charge,
45:42dragging yourself,
45:44changing color.
45:46I lasted at least two years
45:48and left.
45:50To steal, I steal alone.
45:52I don't need a social company.
45:54But the problem,
45:56the prestige is what you achieve
45:58from those who think differently.
46:00No, of course.
46:02And argue with those who think differently.
46:04We are a country without reflection.
46:06This is what we are doing here.
46:08And without self-criticism.
46:10Without self-criticism.
46:12I tell you,
46:14when the military dictatorship comes,
46:16what poverty.
46:18There was almost full occupation with Perón.
46:20Yes, but with the announcement.
46:22Because if we say with Perón,
46:24it seems dogmatic.
46:26We are talking about a military government.
46:28Now,
46:30with Perón, Perón did not impoverish.
46:32On the contrary.
46:34Now, isn't it paradoxical that Perón's party
46:36throughout these years
46:38ended up giving an impoverished Argentina
46:40with the end of Alberto Fernández?
46:42But I talked to him
46:44his last birthday,
46:46and he wanted Peronism to be dissolved.
46:48To be dissolved?
46:50Of course. He said, Peronists are all.
46:52That's it.
46:54When Helva goes and says,
46:56General, I'm becoming a Peronist.
46:58Helva tells me.
47:00He looked at him badly and said,
47:02Don José, just now that I stopped being it.
47:06Well, Perón came with another concept.
47:08He changed the book.
47:10It was no longer for a Peronist,
47:12but for an Argentine.
47:14And he always said it,
47:16in the previous part,
47:18leave Peronism aside.
47:20What happens is that Turgo came,
47:22put the photo and stole the Milanese.
47:24But this is another degradation.
47:26Well, Peronism was destroyed,
47:28what Peronism had built,
47:30plus the radicals, plus Forca,
47:32plus all the patriots.
47:34Because the country has all the versions.
47:36You regretted voting for Macri.
47:38I love this, but...
47:40He regretted voting for everyone.
47:42In the last one,
47:44can you tell who you voted for?
47:46No, I voted for Massa, yes, of course.
47:48Ah, you voted for Massa.
47:50Tell me if you voted for Milley.
47:52No, I voted for Massa and I wrote it in Clarín.
47:54I wrote a note.
47:56But...
47:58Could it be Massa the Emergent?
48:00No, because Massa and Rodríguez Larreta
48:02are so pragmatic
48:04that you can tell they don't believe in anything.
48:06To be a politician,
48:08you have to have a dream,
48:10an illusion.
48:12You have to have a dream.
48:16But you can tell they don't believe in anything.
48:18Dreamers are a version
48:20of life of poets.
48:22Then there are the rich.
48:24The rich are there to have a coffee
48:26and you, Cesar, get bored.
48:28As Tejada Gómez says,
48:30he has a dog named Macri.
48:32Maybe Milley's advantage
48:34is that he's not ambiguous.
48:36That's key.
48:38Milley sings the truth to you.
48:40He's not ambiguous.
48:42No, and I don't care
48:44about the consequences of what he says.
48:46You have something personal.
48:48I have a friend
48:50who always said that if accountants
48:52were smart, they would own the companies
48:54and not the professors.
48:56I'll ask you a question.
48:58If Milley gets to the midterm elections...
49:00He loses like a dog.
49:02Stop!
49:04With good candidates, he wins.
49:06Are you here to say, sorry, I was wrong?
49:08Yes!
49:12Milley has nothing in front of him.
49:14He has no one in front of him.
49:16But they are provincial legislatives.
49:18In politics,
49:20you can lose on your own.
49:24This is what Enrico said.
49:26He has a dog, a lover,
49:28and a psychoanalyst
49:30who beats him to death twice a week.
49:32But the summary of the provinces...
49:34Tejada Gómez was that.
49:36Julio, what Cristina did
49:38when she lost the legislative elections,
49:40she showed a map of the elections
49:42won at the provincial level,
49:44even if the province lost.
49:46She can do that.
49:48She can win the legislative elections
49:50in other provinces and not in Buenos Aires.
49:52She has nothing.
49:54Julio, to keep you warm,
49:56there was a survey in Clarín,
49:58which said,
50:00the question was,
50:02how long are you willing to hold on?
50:04Almost 40% said,
50:06until the end of Milley's term.
50:08So, evidently,
50:10what came before
50:12was so bad
50:14that people's consideration...
50:16Forget Alberto?
50:18But a guy who...
50:20But is it Alberto or Cristina?
50:22Is it resignation or hope?
50:24What?
50:26That 40% can hold on until the end.
50:28No, it's resignation.
50:30Alberto is a guy accused
50:32by the secretary and his wife.
50:34It's clear that he wasn't loyal
50:36to either side, right?
50:38But is it Alberto or Cristina,
50:40that fear?
50:42It's Cristina.
50:44People forgot about Alberto.
50:46It's Cristina.
50:48But Alberto's failure is Cristina's failure.
50:50Yes, but
50:52Cristina is still in the ring
50:54as the only visible contender.
50:56And with 20%,
50:5825%.
51:00What do you want?
51:02The previous failure, which is Cristina,
51:04or the current one, which is Milley?
51:06There's no hope.
51:08Julio, you're being unfair.
51:10The previous failure
51:12has been proven.
51:14And the current one?
51:16Well, let's wait...
51:18There's no worse way
51:20for a country
51:22than
51:24resigning people.
51:26What I'm telling you is this.
51:28The coups d'état
51:30and the right always did the same.
51:32Exactly the same.
51:34The one that lasted the longest was Cavallo with the 1-1.
51:36He ended up with the desperate people
51:38beating the banks.
51:40Yes, but now he has all the receipts.
51:42The currency is a result of society.
51:44Let me add something.
51:46Politics has to think about society, not the currency.
51:48With the whole party behind.
51:50Who? Menem.
51:52Oh, no, no.
51:54Yes, because the party was a division.
51:56It was a division that enriched a dozen people.
51:58It was also a Peronist government.
52:00It was a Peronist government.
52:02It was a traitor to everyone.
52:04It was a traitor to the country,
52:06not to the Peronists.
52:08Well, many don't see it that way, Julio.
52:10Well, if we're not original, we get bored.
52:12What do you want?
52:1411 and 37 to all this.
52:16Julio didn't miss anything in life.
52:18Do you want to come a little more often?
52:20If you invite me,
52:22I'll come.
52:24Ready.
52:26Let's make a bonfire and sing.
52:28Now on the 12th I'm going with Carmela
52:30to Rome to see the Holy Father.
52:32Are you leaving now?
52:34No, now.
52:3612th of November.
52:3812th of November I'm going with Carmela
52:40because I don't see anything.
52:42And to see the Pope.
52:44How do you treat him?
52:46In confidence.
52:48Well, we already know he's the Pope.
52:50When he arrives, he always moves me.
52:52Always.
52:54I'm not going to deny it.
52:56He arrives and I mobilize.
52:58Then he lets me be.
53:00He lets you flow.
53:02He lets you flow.
53:04Does he bring you a gift?
53:06No.
53:08I bring him a book,
53:10but he never brings me a gift.
53:12But I'm a friend of his.
53:14And where does it happen?
53:16In the country? San Lorenzo?
53:18First he has fun for a while.
53:20I fight him for a while.
53:22I tell him that the priest who was fighting for you
53:24forgave him.
53:26So you do the same thing you do here.
53:28Of course.
53:34He really loves to talk to me
53:36and me to talk to him.
53:38And to feel that I'm a friend of the Pope.
53:40Of course.
53:42It brings him closer to Argentina.
53:44I always want to go.
53:46Are you going to bring the book
53:48with you?
53:50He's going to give it to me.
53:52Are you going to give it to me
53:54before anyone else?
53:56I always tell him
53:58that I'm going
54:00because he's busy.
54:02And he tells me
54:04that he has other things to do.
54:06Stay a little longer.
54:10It's a pleasure to share this with you.
54:12Send him greetings.
54:14To Jorge.
54:18I get some interviews.
54:20Some of great journalists.
54:22I was lucky to go.
54:24Julio, thank you very much for coming.