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00:00Now it's time for Perspective and on the program.
00:02And since the Taliban seized power in August 2021,
00:05women have been banned from large areas of employment.
00:09They're not allowed to travel or use public transport
00:11without a close male relative.
00:13They have to cover their faces
00:14and can be arrested for immorality
00:16if they violate dress codes.
00:18As for the courts,
00:19well, they have handed down punishments of lashings,
00:21typically 39 of them.
00:23Well, that is the latest assessment
00:24from Human Rights Watch.
00:26And it's a situation which has been documented
00:28by my guests today.
00:29Melissa Cornet is a writer and researcher
00:31on gender and conflict.
00:32And Kiana Heary is an Iranian-Canadian photographer.
00:35They're both co-authors of the project,
00:37No Women's Land,
00:39an intimate look at the battle
00:41for women's rights in Afghanistan.
00:42The project's now been awarded, in fact,
00:44with the Carmignac Photojournalist Award
00:46by the Carmignac Foundation.
00:48Thanks for coming in and talking to us.
00:49Congratulations, first of all.
00:51We're gonna start off by looking at some of the pictures.
00:54Gonna start with you, Kiana.
00:55The first one was taken in Kabul in February, in the snow.
00:59Looks like fun, but always a bit of fear behind it.
01:03Yes, so we met this group of teenagers
01:06who they couldn't go on the street to play snowballs.
01:09So they actually traveled to a different neighborhood
01:11and went to the back alleys to be able
01:13to have a moment of joy.
01:15And it was very short-lived.
01:16I mean, the whole thing was about half an hour
01:18before they had to get back in this car
01:20and leave before they get spotted by the Taliban.
01:23I mean, you can see, it looks like a lot of fun,
01:25but fear really behind it, would you say?
01:27Yeah, and the beautiful thing about it is,
01:29this is something that Melissa and I constantly look into,
01:32is at the time when the spaces is getting tightened
01:35and tightened, and there's very little how women
01:38and young women use joy as a form of resistance.
01:41I mean, resistance is very,
01:44it depends on the environment that you come from.
01:46And for Afghan women, for many of them,
01:48existing or having a moment of joy
01:50or finding little ways to express themselves
01:53is a way of resistance.
01:54Let's talk about another one.
01:56This one's showing resistance as well.
01:58Some women at a party,
01:59a private party in their home, obviously.
02:02Yes, this is a birthday party,
02:04and we're very, very lucky to build the trust
02:07and get access to these very, very intimate environments.
02:11Women are banned from, I mean,
02:13music is banned across Afghanistan.
02:15So, and these are like those quiet moments
02:18where women are able to practice what they want to do.
02:21Beautiful picture.
02:22We'll keep showing some of those pictures
02:23as we continue to talk.
02:25Melissa, tell us what you saw
02:26and what you experienced being in Afghanistan
02:29and what you thought of the conditions
02:31that women were being forced to live in.
02:33So, over the course of 10 weeks,
02:36we traveled to seven different provinces in Afghanistan.
02:39We interviewed more than 100 women and girls,
02:41and we really wanted to try to show the realities
02:44and nuances of their experiences.
02:48Showing, trying to go a little bit beyond the narrative
02:50or, you know, they are victims of the Taliban,
02:53the situation is dramatic,
02:55but we wanted to show how they manage, like Jana said,
02:58to still carve small spaces of joy and resistance,
03:02whether it's having a birthday party,
03:05whether it's playing music,
03:06whether it's continuing to work,
03:07despite the fact that it's extremely complicated
03:09for them today.
03:10But what was most notable for us
03:13over the six months in which this work took place
03:16is really how we saw in front of our eyes
03:19how all of the women we worked with
03:20lost hope that their condition could improve.
03:23Most of them, all of them right now
03:25are trying to find a way to leave the country
03:27because they understood that they no longer have a future,
03:29and their daughters especially
03:30do not have a future anymore in a country
03:32when they cannot go to school,
03:34past grade six when they cannot go to university,
03:36and they cannot work in most fields.
03:38And a difficult situation for men as well,
03:40presumably, put in the situation,
03:43you know, where their wives, their girlfriends,
03:45their daughters can't do what they want to do.
03:48Exactly, and what we've seen
03:50is that a lot of the control of the women and girls
03:52in Afghanistan actually happens
03:54mainly from the men of the family,
03:56and not because they are necessarily very conservative,
03:59but because they are worried
04:00for their wives and their daughters.
04:02So there's one out of concern
04:03who are going to usually put the first restriction
04:07on them leaving the house
04:08because they're just afraid of them being arrested,
04:11detained, and beaten.
04:12Tell us a bit between the two of you
04:13about how you're able to do this project.
04:16I mean, was it difficult to be able to travel freely
04:19and take pictures wherever you wanted?
04:21It was very complicated,
04:23and access really shrunk as well in front of our eyes.
04:26I don't think today we would be able
04:27to do the same reportage in Afghanistan.
04:30Kenna has been working in Afghanistan for almost 10 years.
04:33I've been working in Afghanistan for almost seven years.
04:35So we were able to really rely on our networks
04:39and our knowledge of the country
04:41to be able to use this access.
04:42A lot of the women we worked with,
04:44we've known them for years.
04:47So that really helped us.
04:49It was really complicated.
04:50And as you'll see,
04:51there's barely any photos of women in the public space
04:54because it's just incredibly difficult
04:57to take photos outside right now.
04:59So most of the work we've been doing
05:01has had to happen behind closed doors inside the homes,
05:04which right now is the only space left for women.
05:07Presumably very difficult for some of the women,
05:10particularly as time goes on,
05:12to take part and to help and to talk to you as well.
05:14Absolutely.
05:16The safety of women that we spoke to
05:18was our highest priority.
05:20And we constantly had to reflect throughout the project,
05:23throughout the 10 weeks we were on the ground,
05:25and sometimes make decisions on their behalf of like,
05:28is this safe to show?
05:28Is this not?
05:29Should we take the photo with their identities or not?
05:32I mean, lovely photos looking at them.
05:34I mean, what are you looking for when you take a picture?
05:36I'm sure you took a lot more pictures than we're seeing,
05:39but what kind of angle,
05:41what kind of influences are you looking for
05:43to create the perfect picture?
05:46I think photography, like photography,
05:48it's like you follow the light.
05:49I believe you follow the light
05:50and everything else comes with it.
05:52That's where the photography,
05:53but also in terms of subject matter,
05:55we wanted to show Afghanistan in different lights.
05:57I have been working in Afghanistan for 10 years,
06:00and I wanted this project,
06:01perhaps one of my last in Afghanistan,
06:03to look very different.
06:04So even the visual language of my photography
06:07is different in this one.
06:08We used a lot of neon lights,
06:10which is something that is used on the outside,
06:12but we brought the neon lights into women's homes.
06:14If they're not able to go out,
06:15we're going to bring it into their spaces.
06:17And what about how this came about in the first place?
06:20I mean, you've obviously both been in
06:22and around Afghanistan for a long time,
06:23but why is this a project
06:24that you both particularly wanted to do?
06:29For both of us, I think it's kind of like a testimony
06:33to the attachment we have to the country.
06:35We both know it might be our last project in Afghanistan.
06:38So we were very pleased when the Karaminiak Foundation,
06:42the photojournalism award,
06:43decided to focus this year's edition
06:45on women's rights in Afghanistan.
06:47So we applied and we were very lucky to have the space,
06:50the time over the course of six months
06:52to really do this work.
06:54It's a luxury today to have so much time
06:56to go and meet with hundreds of women,
06:58spend time with them,
06:59but also visit them, you know,
07:01like a few times over the course of these six months
07:03to really build this trust
07:05that we need to be able to show them in this light.
07:08You know, we really wanted to go beyond this narrative of,
07:11we didn't want to show, like,
07:11women in Burqa begging in front of a bakery,
07:13basically, we wanted to show them really
07:15with respect and dignity,
07:16how they wanted to be portrayed.
07:18And great to have it recognised by such a prestigious award.
07:21Absolutely, for sure.
07:22And I think, honestly, we have to acknowledge
07:26the women who have come and spoke to us
07:28and put themselves in front of our camera,
07:30they are the one with a lot of courage,
07:32that they're willing to take the risk to speak up
07:35in the time that even, like, meeting with us
07:38could have gotten them in danger.
07:42That has to be acknowledged.
07:43Do you have any hope?
07:44I mean, you know, the situation obviously
07:46has got worse and worse and worse,
07:48but, you know, things change.
07:49I mean, hopefully at some point,
07:51things will not be as restrictive.
07:54It's a very tough question.
07:55It's a question we ask to almost every woman we met
07:58and, unfortunately, none of them has hope today
08:01that things can improve under the Taliban regime.
08:04All of them are looking to leave the country.
08:07We do find some hope in the resilience that they have,
08:10in the fact that they just refuse to have their humanity raised,
08:15like the Taliban are trying to,
08:17by carving this small moment of joys,
08:20meeting with girlfriends and dancing, things like that.
08:24But it's really, really hard.
08:25And especially we see now how Afghanistan
08:27has completely fallen off of the agenda
08:30for most governments, media and all.
08:32And so for us, it was so important to continue to document it
08:36and make sure that these stories are still brought to Paris
08:39and brought to other cities in Europe.
08:42Well, great to see the pictures.
08:43Thanks very much for coming in and sharing them with us
08:45here on France 24.
08:47If you are in Paris or you're coming to Paris,
08:49the photos are going to be on display, in fact,
08:51at the RĂ©flectoire des Cordeliers in central Paris
08:55from the 25th of October.
08:56So that's from this Friday until mid-November.
08:58They'll be on display there.
08:59So thanks very much once again.
09:00Congratulations on the award.
09:02Thanks for having us.