A Reuters Institute survey finds that only 33% of Taiwan’s public say they trust the media. This stands in stark contrast to Taiwan’s high ranking in Reporters Without Borders' Press Freedom Index.
On this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Herel Hughes sits down with Thibaut Bruttin, RSF's Director-General. We first zoom out on how teach is changing our media landscape, then zoom in on what Taiwan's media can do to regain the public's trust.
On this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Herel Hughes sits down with Thibaut Bruttin, RSF's Director-General. We first zoom out on how teach is changing our media landscape, then zoom in on what Taiwan's media can do to regain the public's trust.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome to Zoom In Zoom Out, your global look at news from Taiwan. I'm Harrell Hughes.
00:17In Taiwan, a reported 3 out of every 10 people say they trust the media, according to a Reuters
00:23Institute survey. That's one of the lowest percentages among democracies. Why do so few
00:28people trust the media in Taiwan? And what dangers does that present? To learn more
00:33about this, we are joined today by the Director General of Reporters Without Borders, Thibault
00:38Boutang. Thibault, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:41Thank you for inviting me.
00:42First, we want to zoom out. It's not just Taiwan experiencing this low trust in media.
00:47It is a global issue. So what happens to a society or a democracy when people distrust
00:53media?
00:54So usually what we evidence in all the reporting we're doing is that when there is no or little
01:00trust in media, public debate becomes very difficult. And I think democracy pays a toll.
01:07At the end of the day, free press is one of the basic components in order to foster a
01:12true democracy. So we know we're worried about the journalists. We're worried about journalism
01:17as a trade, as an activity. But we're also eventually worried about democracy.
01:22So public trust in media also gives rise to a lot of disinformation. So what sort of dangers
01:26does that present?
01:27Well, I would further, I would say that the low trust in media is a result of disinformation.
01:34And we're facing actors, especially repressive regimes, that have an interest in building
01:39a confusion, in showing the dark sides of democracy. And that's something that we are
01:45especially very worried about, because the press freedom situation is worrying. But it's
01:52also the result of an evolution of the tactics and strategies of press freedom predators.
01:56They've been very good at adjusting, at finding new ways of influencing the debate. And we
02:04need to find strong answers to that.
02:06Does this disinformation imply malicious intent versus misinformation?
02:11In general, what we like at RSF is to use the very old vintage expression of propaganda.
02:18Because propaganda is precisely mass media being weaponized by an ideology or a regime.
02:28And also it uses the disguise of journalism. You know, we use the term of money laundering,
02:34but I think there is journalism laundering. It exists. The idea is to use either the looks
02:41or of legitimate journalism, or to be putting your narrative, penetrating into the legitimate
02:49media landscape in order to spread your ideas. And some repressive regimes, I'm thinking
02:54about the Federation of Russia, especially, have been very good at that. It's a matter
02:59of having state media that you position as legitimate media. It's about corrupting journalists.
03:07It's about sometimes using the logos of media. And we've been ourselves the attack, the victims
03:13of an attack of the Russian Federation, with a fake BBC and a fake RSF report. So that
03:21exists. And all of that shows that it's not only misinformation online, it's also using
03:29the legitimacy of the media in order to position that narrative.
03:33Well, you've mentioned the actors who are perpetuating this disinformation. What role
03:37does technology or even social media companies play within that?
03:41Oh, they play a major role. And obviously, we are not satisfied with the current situation.
03:49Like the media and the information, the news and information media have been failing at
03:56being highlighted in social media, in search engines, because it's not the heart of the
04:02trade of tech platforms to reward the integrity of information. So we need to be more selective
04:09in there to have an integrity factor. I don't know what reputation is. Reputation is the
04:15word used by many of the tech platforms to explain why you are ranked first or second.
04:22You know, reputation is not a journalism term. I mean, it's something that probably is more
04:27accustomed to or linked to social life. What we need is to have in the information space
04:34a recognition of the rights and duties of journalism, the professionalism of the news
04:41reporting. And I think another issue that we see is that on social media and other media
04:46sites, we are just flooded with a constant amount of information.
04:50It definitely is. And the fact that the news consumption has been driven by
04:58tech platforms in the past decades is an issue per se. I am not sure that 50 years ago,
05:07people would have experienced news fatigue. Now they are. Because obviously, when they only had
05:13one, two, three, five, ten newspapers to read and several TV channels, they could make a
05:20selective choice. Today, the big revolution, I think it's a little sad, is autoplay. When you
05:28are opening an app and you have videos constantly being displayed, you don't even have a say on,
05:34like, do I want to watch that? Or you don't even now need to press a button to have the sound.
05:42So you're constantly exposed to narratives and content. At the end of the day, I understand
05:48the public's news fatigue. That's evidenced in many polls and surveys. And we need to address
05:53that. Is journalism something that contributes to you being able to have an opinion? I believe so.
06:03But when you're constantly under fire from information, I think it's difficult to exercise
06:10this judgment and to be able to have some reflection. So there are other forms of
06:16journalism, and maybe we should highlight them more often. You have constructive journalism,
06:21you have slow journalism, just like there is slow food. And that exists. And I think the more people
06:29will be drawn towards constant 24-hour coverage, the less they will have an appetite for journalism
06:38that builds a vision of the world, that structures your understanding of what's going on,
06:44and enables you to make individual or collective decisions. So really, if there is one thing I
06:50really believe in is the fact that if people are pissed off by journalists, it's also because they
06:55have been disappointed, which means that they had hope, which means that they have an ideal.
07:00And we need to restore faith in that hope.
07:02Now let's zoom in. We're currently in Taiwan. How would you describe Taiwan's media landscape?
07:08So I would define it with a figure. 27th, that's the ranking of Taiwan on the World Press Freedom
07:16Index that RSF establishes on a yearly basis. So it's the leading country in terms of press
07:22freedom in Asia. And I think it's a very satisfactory position in many ways. But
07:28obviously, I'm not going to say that everything is perfect. It could be better. And that's what
07:34we're here for, to discuss ways to implement change, to trigger change. But as a whole,
07:41I'd like to say that Taiwan is a very interesting testimony of the fact that, despite whatever the
07:48Communist Party of China is saying, there is no contradiction in the fact that Taiwan is a
07:55country that is a strong proponent of Chinese culture and having a free press and a free flow
08:03of information. So you mentioned Taiwan is ranked first in press freedom in Asia,
08:07but the trust in the media is so low. How would you explain that?
08:11So I'd explain it by two factors, or maybe three. The technological context in which
08:20the news is consumed today is something that doesn't foster the trust. And I won't explain
08:28there, because I already did. The second thing is, I think, the fact that the neighbor is here
08:35trying to influence the narrative in many ways. And some of that, as a result, creates confusion,
08:41narratives that conflict. There is always an element of, is it true? Is it false? So the
08:49propaganda, to some extent, is effective. And the third thing, which is, I think, equally
08:56important, probably easier to solve, is how polarized the media can be in an environment
09:01like Taiwan. And I'm not against committed journalism. I think it's part of the history
09:08of journalism. But to what extent media are weaponized to serve the interest of a political
09:15or economical group, I think it's something one can wonder about. And we need to think
09:23in those terms. How can we depoliticize the media, depolarize the media, or at least have
09:29a pluralistic approach to the media that serves the public need, that serves the public conversation?
09:36So I know that you're currently in Taiwan to speak with some of Taiwan's leaders. What are
09:40your goals on this visit? So there are three reasons for our visit here. First of all,
09:45to celebrate seven years of the office of RSF in Taipei. Its scope has expanded to
09:53Asia and the Pacific region. And it has become a force in the region for all the journalists
10:00at risk, a strong place to get advice on policies about media. So celebrating that is the first
10:07point. The second is to gather our correspondents in the region, because RSF is only as strong as
10:13its network is. And we're a grassroots organization in many ways. So we need to gather people,
10:19strategize, and that's what we're doing. And finally, we're talking to lots of people within
10:24the media community in Taiwan, plus policymakers. So we're meeting President Lai, and also meeting
10:31the opposition. So it's very interesting to see if there is a way to build a transpartisan approach
10:36to take some steps in order to strengthen the media landscape in Taipei and to address the
10:42question of disinformation. In our perspective, that's a very transpartisan, bipartisan
10:49track that needs to be built. And we're confident in the fact that Taiwan, which has solved many
10:56more difficult issues in the past, can solve that. So I know that Reporters Without Borders
11:01has some recommendations for Taiwan. Can you tell us about some of those? Yeah, so we've published
11:05an op-ed in the Taipei Times, which highlights five solutions. I won't get into all of them,
11:12but we really believe that at some point, we need to have tech platforms that endorse free press,
11:20professional journalism. And it could be interesting to have a public policy that
11:26requires for tech platforms to increase the discoverability and get appropriate
11:33moderation for journalism content. Second is probably the expansion of transmedia regulation.
11:41We're not big supporters of regulation per se. I mean, we think it should be a Damocles sword.
11:47It should not be used all the time. But having a regulation that is equal to the whole media
11:56landscape is interesting. The print press is regulated differently from the TV in many
12:03countries. In Taiwan, that's the case. And we believe that it should be something that
12:09is considered by policymakers. And maybe a final point is the fact that we champion
12:15the standard, the Journalism Trust Initiative standard, and we think the media in Taiwan should
12:21engage in this self-regulatory approach. It's a way to preempt regulation. And if they disclose
12:28how they work and who they are, media are obviously more likely to get the public trust.
12:35And aside from government policies, what can Taiwan's media do to retain the public trust?
12:40We're talking a lot about public conversation. Well, I am. And the public conversation is a
12:45conversation. So when you engage with the public, you need to make one step in the public's
12:50direction. Media should reform. There should be more transparency. There should be more
12:57editorial independence. And if you look across the world, the culture of independence is something
13:04that is paramount to the credibility of the media. If media serve the interest of their owners only,
13:12at the end of the day, they're not likely to achieve as a media outlet. We believe that
13:21the sustainability of media is intimately tied to the ability to be free and independent
13:29and trust sustainability and independence. It's just like different stops on the same line.
13:37Well, Thibaut, thank you so much for sharing that with us today.
13:40Thank you so much.
13:42This has been Zoom In Zoom Out. For more stories from Taiwan Plus News,
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