Most Powerful Women Summit 2024: Inside The Defense Tech Revolution
Katherine Boyle, General Partner, Andreessen Horowitz, Nini Hamrick, Co-founder and President, Vannevar Labs Moderator: Michal Lev-Ram, Fortune
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00:00So, I want to start by just asking both of you to share with us your career trajectory
00:05because both of you have had really unconventional paths to where you are today, and Catherine,
00:10I'll start with you.
00:11Certainly.
00:12So, I actually had a very circuitous path to venture capital where I started my career
00:15as a reporter at the Washington Post.
00:18Left the Washington Post right as Jeff Bezos was buying the paper and decided I needed
00:21to learn about what this technology thing was that was changing my industry.
00:25Moved out to Silicon Valley to go to business school, and I always say I've lived around
00:28the world, traveled around the world as a reporter, and it was the worst culture shock
00:33of my life.
00:34I had been a creature of Washington for 10 years, moved out, and realized that nothing
00:38that I learned about technology and sort of what the priorities of Washington were translated
00:43to Silicon Valley, and again, this was 2014.
00:45This was a different era in Silicon Valley, and I sort of set out on a path to try to
00:48understand why is that?
00:50Why is there such a gulf between the regulators, the administrators, the politicians in Washington,
00:55and the people who are building new things in our country?
00:58And became very interested in what we now call American dynamism, companies that support
01:02the national interest, but these categories of innovation that are not apps that we use
01:06on our phone, but things like aerospace, defense, energy, housing, transportation, education,
01:11the things that Washington cares about.
01:13And in 2016, 2017, 2018, started looking for companies like NeNe's, and that's how we met,
01:20but there were so few people interested in national security.
01:23It was like, you know, whatever I would bring up, is there anyone you know working on companies
01:27that are selling to the DOD, anyone you know that cares about this defense mission?
01:31I would get laughed out of rooms.
01:33And something really changed with this new crop that NeNe helped pioneer, of people who
01:37want to support the national interest, of engineers who want to work on the very hard
01:41problems and are very comfortable working with government, and I think we'll get into
01:44why that's changed, but there really has been a sea change in Silicon Valley, wanting to
01:49work and support the Department of Defense.
01:51NeNe?
01:52So, before starting Vannevar, I had the pleasure of serving in the intelligence community for
01:57seven years, and I think there were kind of two reflections from that period of time that
02:02led me to co-found Vannevar.
02:04The first was that technology can be incredibly transformative to really important national
02:09security missions, and the second is that there is a huge gap between the technology
02:14that's available commercially and what's available to folks that are serving in national security
02:19positions in government.
02:21The first observation came to me when I was actually in Afghanistan on a small team, we
02:26were going after high-value al-Qaeda targets, and believe it or not, we actually had an
02:31embedded software engineer on our team, and as a result, we had great technology.
02:37And I came home to D.C., I worked on other important missions, trying to rescue U.S.
02:41hostages in Syria, for instance, and I started to learn that that just wasn't widely available.
02:46There was this really big gap between the technology we had for these missions and what
02:51I was seeing that existed in the private sector.
02:54So I actually asked to work in our government software procurement office for six months,
03:00and I found that the reason for this was really that the companies that we were procuring
03:06software from were a very small set of traditional primes, none of whom are software companies.
03:13And so that gap, similar to what Catherine described, was what drove me out to Silicon
03:18Valley where I met my co-founder and we formed Vannevar around really bridging this gap between
03:24the national security world and the great engineering and software talent that exists
03:28in Silicon Valley.
03:31You alluded to this, but I want to hear more about what's changed over the last few years,
03:36because it's a very different landscape today than 10 years ago.
03:39But it didn't happen overnight, so tell us about this shift.
03:44It's definitely been, I would say, a 10-year journey, but I think there were two kind of
03:47macro events that really changed how many founders are excited to build for defense
03:51and for their country.
03:52So the first was, the founder of our firm, Mark Andreessen, wrote this incredible essay
03:57called It's Time to Build, where he said, I sat down on my keyboard really angry because
04:01it was in the midst of COVID, and we are the greatest country in the world, New York City
04:04is the greatest city in the world, and for some reason, we can't get enough PPE to our
04:08first responders in hospitals.
04:10And they were asking people to donate ponchos in 2020.
04:12And that was sort of a wake-up call that the innovation that we've been investing in
04:15in software has not touched the physical world.
04:19It hasn't transformed the physical industries, these hard industries that have been around
04:21for hundreds of years, that are the backbone of what Washington cares about.
04:25So that was sort of the first event where I think it forced founders to say, we've been
04:28working on apps, we've been working on our phones, but what can we do in the physical
04:31world that actually supports these missions?
04:33And then the second thing that happened, and this is actually, I think, the biggest surprise
04:36to me is, the war in Ukraine changed everything about how young people think about the Department
04:42of Defense's work, and really the important mission of deterrence and making sure that
04:46we invest in the next technologies.
04:48I often say, I invest in young people who were not born or don't remember September
04:5311th, which is why I care so deeply about this mission, but they don't remember it.
04:56But they know that the war that's happening in Ukraine has changed everything about what
05:00is going to happen in the future, and we have to build the next technologies, and that's
05:03going to come from Silicon Valley.
05:04As Nini said, it's not going to come from Raytheon, it's not going to come from Lockheed
05:08Martin.
05:09Young people, young engineers with AI capabilities, people who've learned from the best universities
05:13and the best professors and companies, they don't go to those companies anymore.
05:17And so we really need to build this bridge between the people in Washington who need
05:20these technologies and people who are investors, people like Nini who are building these next
05:24gen capabilities so that we can make sure our men and women in uniform are safe.
05:28And obviously, a lot of attention goes to drones and all sorts of kinetic warfare applications
05:38and technologies, and that is some of the area that you're focused on, but not necessarily
05:45the totality, not at all.
05:46And Nini, I'm wondering if you could just share with us very briefly what Vannevar actually
05:50does.
05:51Sure.
05:52So at Vannevar, we think about it, as you said, about winning the war before it's fought,
05:58winning the fight before it's fought, and that might sound surprising, like what fight
06:02are we in today?
06:03But in fact, the competition that's playing out right now with the People's Republic of
06:07China, that is the fight that we think about every day.
06:11It's contested across public diplomacy, across economically, it's contested in technology,
06:19and we think about how do you compete effectively with China so that we never actually move
06:25into armed conflict, particularly over Taiwan.
06:30And so the way that we've approached that has been how do we partner with the national
06:34security community around technologies that help them compete with the PRC in economics,
06:41in diplomacy, in these non-kinetic domains, domains that actually don't approach munitions,
06:46weapons, or massing those technologies.
06:50We think that's going to significantly change the risk that we face over the next several
06:54years and bend that competition line away from armed conflict and toward steady-state
07:01competition between the U.S. and China.
07:04And Catherine, I know you just recently got back from the border of Ukraine, and I'd love
07:10for you to share an anecdote from a conversation you had there about what kind of technologies
07:14are actually really impactful and important there.
07:17Yes.
07:18So I was just in Poland, and it was really a privilege to see what's happening on the
07:21ground.
07:22And I spoke with an operator there, and I said, you know, what would you say the most
07:26important technology is that you are using here?
07:28What is the thing that you think is really turning the tide for Ukraine?
07:30And without missing a beat, he said Starlink, which is, of course, the constellation that
07:35adds immediate connectivity, the SpaceX's constellation, low-Earth orbit constellation
07:39that allows really remote Internet access anywhere.
07:41And the reason that is so important is because the Ukrainians and the Russians are fighting
07:45a technological war.
07:47There is an Iron Dome.
07:48And the jamming technology that the Russians are using is making it very difficult for
07:51the Ukrainians to communicate.
07:53And communications on the battlefield is so incredibly important, especially when we're
07:56talking about things you can do before you go into battle and before you go into war.
08:00So the fact that that is sort of the technology that operators say is most important, I think
08:06it also illuminates another thing that sometimes goes unnoticed, which is that dual-use technology,
08:11or technology that can be used both in the commercial sector and in the defense sector,
08:15is incredibly important.
08:16I think it's helping people back home, helping FEMA, helping people who are victims of hurricanes,
08:21the last few hurricanes.
08:22You know, it helps rural access in the remotest parts of the U.S.
08:26And so I think in some ways that's another thing that we really want to be able to bring,
08:30to bear, are technologies that we use as consumers that help make our lives easier, bringing
08:35those capabilities to the people and the men and women on the battlefield and the people
08:39that serve in our military so that they can have the latest and greatest capabilities
08:43as well.
08:44I'll go to you for questions in just a few minutes here.
08:47But I want to take a step back and hear from both of you a little bit about kind of what's
08:52at stake here.
08:53I mean, you touched on this, Nini, but we have multiple hotspots and wars raging, obviously,
08:59the Middle East, Ukraine, Sudan, fears of conflict elsewhere.
09:06And we all follow it, we're all concerned, there are deep, deep feelings that some of
09:11these conflicts have elicited in us.
09:14But as business leaders in the room, I mean, what keeps you up at night?
09:19What drives you to do the work that you're both doing with your organizations?
09:23And what should the women in the room be concerned about?
09:26So I think that's a great question, and I do think we are at a pivotal moment.
09:29So what keeps me up at night is our defense industrial base is not what it was 50 years
09:34ago.
09:35You know, the sort of break between the technologies that we've built in the last 20, 30 years
09:42for commercial technology, and what the Department of Defense is able to procure.
09:46This is a very long problem, it was first identified by former Secretary of Defense
09:49Ash Carter under the Obama administration, that it is if we do not get our young people
09:54who are accelerating and building new technologies at a rate we have never seen before to work
09:58with the Department of Defense, we are going to lose the battle of the future.
10:02And we are seeing Russia, China build up their defense industrial base, invest in manufacturing,
10:08invest in capabilities, and they have no problem, as they are authoritarian dictatorships, making
10:13the best and brightest in those countries work on those problems that will be used for
10:17war against us.
10:18And so we have to make sure that our young people that are brilliant engineers, that
10:22the people like the great people who, you know, manage what happened on Sunday at SpaceX,
10:27continue to work on those problems and to ensure that they're working directly with
10:31the Department of Defense, so that we can deter the next conflicts, as Nini said.
10:34This is so much about deterrence, of making sure that the war of the future doesn't happen,
10:39and if it does happen, that it happens as quickly as possible or in as precise a way
10:42as possible.
10:43And I think, you know, that is sort of the mission of why young people, in particular,
10:47are coming to work on these important companies today.
10:49Nini?
10:50Yeah, and I'll just add, I mean, I think what keeps me up at night is, you know, what Xi
10:55Jinping has instructed the Chinese military, which is to prepare options for 2027, to potentially
11:01take Taiwan by armed force, and the massive implications of that, whether it's on the
11:06semiconductor industry, on our allies and partners like Japan and in Southeast Asia
11:11and Taiwan itself, that would be hived off economically, that would be blockaded.
11:16So I think the consequences are quite clear, but as I've said, I don't see this as kind
11:22of an inexorable march to 2027, because there are so many things we can do now to effectively
11:28compete in the domains that are contested, whether that's intelligence and diplomacy
11:32and public messaging and influence in the information environment, in electronic sensing.
11:38These are all the capabilities that I think the Defense Department, the national security
11:42community is starting to focus in on, and realize that if we develop the capacity and
11:48the will to compete, that makes that march toward 2027 actually look a lot more like
11:55a continued cycle of escalations, as I described.
11:58And I think, you know, when we've had these massive shifts in the past, Silicon Valley
12:03and technologists and engineers have really met the moment, and I see that happening now.
12:08Catherine's a huge part of pioneering this next generation of builders that are meeting
12:13that moment, but it's, you know, the space race, World War II, that's the kind of moment
12:17that we're facing right now, and I know investors are recognizing sort of the capital opportunity,
12:22and we see great engineers being really motivated to work on this set of problems.
12:28Just to add something there, because I think this is so important, we have a company that
12:30literally has said Xi Jinping is setting our product strategy.
12:34Like it's almost 2025, we're looking at board decks going out, you know, we've raised capital
12:37through 2027, like we are raising capital for something that our adversary has said
12:42is inevitability.
12:43So I think it is something that, you know, our founders take very seriously, that this
12:47is the moment, and, you know, I think there is also good news that investors, if he did
12:51the call, founders, if he did the call, companies are growing, the DoD, you know, recognizes
12:55the importance of this next generation of technology companies, but there's still more
12:58work to be done, and we have to stay very vigilant, given the world we're in today.
13:02Do we have a question in the audience for Catherine and Nini, raise your hand, please,
13:07if you'd like to ask anything.
13:10Question over here, there's a microphone coming over to you.
13:19Hi, I'm Catherine, I work for Drew Kraus-Safco Worldwide.
13:21I just wondered if you're, what the concerns are about when you mentioned Starlink, about
13:28the ownership of something like that, if it's in the hands of people who can shut it on
13:35and off, and what protections we have if we're directing, you know, in that case, Elon Musk
13:42has a lot of control, and we saw already what happened when it was shut off for a short
13:47time in Ukraine.
13:48Well, I think, you know, being on the ground at the border of Ukraine was something we're
13:53hearing the operators that are there saying that Starlink is the most important technology
13:57and that they're using it, and all of the work that I think SpaceX has done as a company
14:01to support the DoD in that mission, it doesn't give me concern.
14:05SpaceX is, I would say, the most important company in America today, in terms of their
14:09capabilities, in terms of what they're able to engineer, what they accomplished Sunday.
14:13I actually wrote about this today for the Free Press, where the greatest gift that SpaceX
14:18and Elon Musk has given the United States of America is the thousands of engineers who
14:23have gone through SpaceX that now work at every company that Nini and I associate with,
14:27that I've invested in, that I know.
14:28There is a playbook of manufacturing that has come out of SpaceX that is really going
14:32to save the defense industrial base of this country, and the people who are working at
14:35SpaceX from the C-suite on down are exceptional patriotic people who care deeply about the
14:40defense mission, and we're proud to be investors, we're proud to work with them, but we're also
14:45very excited to hear that from the operators on the ground, they recognize how important
14:49this is, and that it is changing the way that they interface in battle, so I don't worry
14:55about that issue.
14:56I think it is very important that SpaceX continues building for the DoD, and I'm glad they are.
15:02Other questions?
15:06I want to ask you guys about some of the concerns and fears, and there have been a lot of conversations
15:14about AI over the last couple of days, as you would expect.
15:19There's been some chatter about the use of autonomous weapons, which actually have been
15:23used for a very long time, but I'm curious, just more broadly speaking, as you're looking
15:29at investments, as you're looking at product development, who you're selling to, what products
15:35you're going after, what are the ethical considerations, and there are regulatory guardrails, of course,
15:41but how do you think about ethics as you move forward?
15:44So I think this is a very important question.
15:45I'll go back to one of my first investments in a company called Anduril Industries.
15:48This was before Ukraine happened, and when I was bringing it through investment committee
15:52at my firm, I actually wrote a very long 10-page ethics memo that went back to what is just
15:57war theory?
15:58How does the DoD think about engagement?
16:00How does it think about the products it purchases, who it purchases from?
16:03And that, I think, sets the groundwork for how we think about engaging with founders
16:07on these important missions.
16:08These are what I call very serious founders.
16:11These are not people who just want to play with toys.
16:13They understand the importance of deterrence.
16:15They understand that by actually investing in these capabilities, they are deterring
16:19war, and that the long arc of warfare throughout history has been an arc of precision.
16:26It has been eliminating the surface of warfare, so that we, you know, the thing about autonomous
16:32weapons that I think is oftentimes misunderstood is the DoD finds them to be very useful for
16:36precision purposes where we can isolate a terrorist without harming civilians now because
16:41of those technological advancements.
16:43And the number of people and the number of vetting and the number of intelligence that
16:46goes into making the call, the generals making the call on something like that, is an extraordinary
16:51group of people at the DoD who are doing this important work.
16:54And so I think sometimes we hear autonomous weapons, or we hear these words, or the media
16:57takes that out of context.
16:59There are really, really trained, thoughtful, ethical people who are focused on making these
17:03decisions at every step of the way.
17:05And the reason why these technologies are so important is because they reduce the surface
17:09area of warfare.
17:11They move away from mass.
17:12And I think that is what is so important about the work that's being done here.
17:15We do need to wrap.
17:16I'm so sorry.
17:17But thank you so much.
17:18Such an important topic and so much more to discuss, so hope you come back.