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00:00Hello and welcome, you're watching India Market Open.
00:07The nation has woken up to some very sad news.
00:11The world, the country, India Inc. has lost one of its most precious titans of our times.
00:17The powerhouse, the legend Tata Sir has left behind a very solid legacy and nation mourns.
00:24You know what really has struck me of course at age 86 and last couple of days were in
00:31the hospital and it's a life well lived but the kind of emotional response from people
00:37who have not met Ratan Tata, might not have invested in Tata companies, might not be part
00:44of the corporate world but yet everyone feels like they have lost someone they knew.
00:49I think that's really part of the legacy.
00:52I just think he travels through all spheres, right?
00:56The daring acquisitions, Tetley T, Khoras, Tata Steel, Khoras or JLR or the zeal to revive
01:05Air India, Nano.
01:06I remember that line, a promise is a promise but I think above all for me, 66% of everything
01:14that he did went to the philanthropic causes.
01:17This is what truly a combination of capitalism and charity looks like.
01:22A nation without him is tough to imagine.
01:24The aggression that Tata got in terms of businesses, prior to 2000 it was a big group but it is
01:31a very slow group.
01:32You know if you look, speak to market people, the stocks never moved or the returns never
01:38came in but 2001 was the aggression that came in with the acquisition of Tetley followed
01:42by you had the JLR, the Khoras, the 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock which was acquired.
01:49It just transformed the group as a very aggressive group.
01:54And Sajid of course, someone who has tracked, I think our executive editor Sajid Mangat
01:58who has tracked the Tatas and this journey for how many years, Sajid, 20 plus years we've
02:04been looking at it.
02:0520 plus years looking at it.
02:06And how they have been doing.
02:07And India was becoming a global superpower in some ways, right?
02:12So let's hear from somebody who has looked at it so closely for so many years now, right?
02:17And somebody who we all look up to hear about how does he think about businesses, about
02:23businessmen and more, Ramesh Damani, market veteran with us on the show.
02:28Ramesh, so good of you to take the time out and speak to us early this morning.
02:33How do you feel about this?
02:34We were saying that it's almost like a personal loss to every single Indian.
02:39Yeah.
02:40Good morning, Neeraj.
02:43And you guys are absolutely right.
02:44We woke up to a sadder day today, no question about it.
02:47I think in many ways, he was, of course, the conscious keeper for India Inc.
02:51He was, of course, an entrepreneur, a pioneer, visionary, as all of you correctly stated.
02:55But more importantly, I think he was the conscious keeper for this India Inc.
03:00You know, there's a favorite prayer of mine by St. Francis of Assisi.
03:04And the last three lines of the prayer say, it is in giving that we receive, it is in
03:09pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in death that we are born to eternal life.
03:13Not only was he wholesale in terms of his giving of his money, his time, his abilities,
03:19but also the kind of structure that he's built up and carried on for the Tata, the true apostle
03:24of Tata.
03:25I think his life and legacy, as you all have correctly pointed out, will live on.
03:29So, RIP to a great Indian avatar and a great Indian youth.
03:34Mr. Damani, I was listening to one of the last interviews of Mr. Ratan Tata, and he
03:41was asked, how do you want to be remembered?
03:44And he said, as someone who made a difference.
03:46I think that's one goal completely achieved, no matter in what sphere, and not only in
03:51just business and touching so many people's lives, isn't it?
03:55Absolutely.
03:56And difference in terms of lasting difference, it's not like a temporary difference or stock
04:00price difference, as The Last Street is prone to say.
04:04The one thing that's unappreciated from my office at The Last Street at BSC to Bombay
04:10House is a very short walk to there.
04:13And one of the underappreciated factors, at least for the market, has been that we often
04:17talked about the public sector leading the market up or the banks leading the market
04:21higher.
04:22What we don't appreciate is how well the Tata group of companies have done.
04:25Based on the framework he set, I mean, Trent has become a household name today, TCS continues
04:29to power ahead, Titan has become a nationally brand name, Tata Consumer has done well, Indian
04:34Hookah has done well.
04:35So part of the leadership in this bull market that we're seeing has come from Tata House
04:39and originated in Bombay House.
04:41And of course, the plan that he set in motion in 1991-92, when India liberalized first.
04:46Right.
04:47We also have Mukund Rajan, author of the brand Custodian, My Years with the Tatas, joining
04:54us.
04:55Good morning, Mukund.
04:56It's Amina.
04:57It's with great sorrow that we report this morning the loss of a very precious gem to
05:02the nation.
05:03You of all, and I know this, have worked so closely with Tataji.
05:08You want to just talk to us about that experience, the learnings, the life with the Tatas, the
05:13glorious life of the man himself.
05:17You know, it's a great loss.
05:18I think he was somebody who really encouraged young talent.
05:22I joined his office as a rookie in my early 20s in the 1990s.
05:28That was, of course, a period of tremendous pressure, I think, that he was going through,
05:33trying to ensure that the Tatas came unscathed through the period of liberalization and the
05:39entry of a large number of multinationals into the Indian market, all of them challenging
05:43the flagship Tata companies like Tata Motors and Tata Steel.
05:47And then through the 2000s, you saw the group really taking wings.
05:51I think once the home turf had been defended well, I think through the 2000s, Ratan Tata
05:56really set the ambition for the group to become a global enterprise.
06:00And you saw the way in which the Tata group really grew tenfold in revenues from the early
06:042000s till the time he actually hung up his boots.
06:08But more than, I think, his determination to ensure Tatas are successful, you really
06:13want the man, the human being, the person that he was, somebody who really cared about
06:20India, cared about the poor in this country.
06:24And obviously, as a philanthropist, as the chairman of India's largest charities, there
06:29was an enormous amount of good that he was able to do.
06:32So, you know, working closely with somebody like that and watching the way he thought
06:36about business, the way it needed to be prosecuted, was an incredible learning experience
06:41for me, of which I'll be ever grateful to him.
06:45Mukund, Sajid here, I clearly remember the kind of auction fight that happened for
06:52Kauras. If you can take us through, you know, that entire process where he wanted Kauras
06:58and he went on to aggressively bid for Kauras.
07:03So I think he was very keen that Tata Steel really sort of bloom as a company that had
07:12enormous capability that had already cemented its position in the Indian market.
07:16And he was a little nervous that opportunity after opportunity was being missed by the
07:21company to really expand overseas.
07:24I remember seeing notes from him on the progress that rival groups, including Arcelor
07:30Mythil, were making at the time.
07:32And he just felt that management needed a bit more ambition and boldness.
07:36I suspect he was not very pleased eventually with the outcome of the Kauras bid because
07:42we acquired it at a time and at a price that in retrospect turned out perhaps to be not
07:49the greatest of moves. And for a long, long time after that, Tata Steel has tried to sort
07:54of repair some of the stress that that produced for its balance sheet.
07:59But I think just in terms of the challenge that he set out to the management and the
08:04determination to succeed with one major move for this particular company, I think the
08:09management worked in tandem with him and eventually they succeeded in the bid.
08:14But sometimes, you know, you can get these things wrong.
08:18And unfortunately, luck was not on the side.
08:20Soon after you had the global financial crisis, you soon discovered that banks would be
08:26fair with their friends. And a lot of the debt that the company racked up for many years
08:30later had to be repaid at a high price.
08:34Ramesh, it's interesting, though, and I'm just taking a leaf from what Mukund Rajan just
08:38said, right, that the same thing was spoken about when when when JLR was acquired for the
08:44longest time, the Achilles heel for Tata Motors and then turning out to be the driving
08:47force for Tata Motors.
08:49So in some sense, it's not just as much about what an individual decision might have done
08:53to a particular company, but just the whole will of thought, as Mukund Rajan put out, that
08:59once the home turf was guarded well, it took wings on the global arena and the kind of
09:04acquisitions, even the hotel acquisitions that have been done on the global scale.
09:08It's just astounding what the man thought for the Tata group and for the nation.
09:14I mean, Neeraj, as you correctly point out, he was a pioneer.
09:17And I think today, if India looks further and sees better, it's because they're standing on
09:22shoulders of giants like him.
09:24So you're absolutely right.
09:25He had a visionary thought and the ability to put money on the table.
09:29But I think ultimately, as we've all pointed out, what really mattered is that he was a true
09:33apostle of the Tata culture and the Tata values.
09:35And I think India needs to incorporate his lessons.
09:40There were a couple of scandals during his tenure, one of them being Tata Finance, one of
09:45them being, of course, the terrorist attack in Mumbai that happened.
09:48And the way he reacted to that, with the correct moral principle, not sweeping it under the
09:53ground, taking charge of, you know, paying back the shareholders of Tata Finance, even
09:58though you're not obligated to do that.
10:00I think the extraordinary judgments in what was actually the Tata's blackest days turned out to
10:06be the finest hours because the real statement of the principles and the vision that the
10:10Tata group has had since the founding of NAMSHAJI TATA a few hundred years back.
10:15Mukund, I think you've had the opportunity to spend time close up with Mr.
10:24Ratan Tata and a lot of our viewers today may want to understand the kind of person, of
10:31course, someone who looked at philanthropy, looked at the greater good, but someone who also
10:35lived a very simple life himself, despite, you know, I think luxury being part of his life from
10:43day one. Very simple in his days, isn't it?
10:45What was your own learning of the person?
10:49He was actually quite a shy individual, somewhat of an introvert, certainly not somebody who
10:55was part of the Bombay cocktail party circuit.
10:58He had a very close and small social group and really Tata's business to a great extent was his
11:05life. I mean, remember, he carried the surname and he felt very deeply, passionately about the
11:10need to really take this group to higher levels.
11:13He also walked into very big shoes when he succeeded his predecessor, JRD Tata.
11:18And you will recollect that there were question marks about his ability to really grow this
11:23business after what JRD Tata had already done.
11:27So really Tata was his life for him.
11:30And yet all the power, the glory, the pomp that surrounds the office of the chairman of
11:36India's largest corporate house, he never let that sort of go to his head.
11:40He was a very simple, grounded individual.
11:42I often joke that he was one of those rare Indian corporate leaders where the airport would
11:47insist on carrying his own bags.
11:49He didn't have an entourage.
11:51So the man was very simple in his days.
11:54He's also very, very much fun to be with, a tremendous sense of humor.
11:58He's an extraordinary mimic.
12:00I remember this one time when in a Tata's board meeting, he often used to doodle when
12:06meetings used to go on a little longer than they needed to.
12:08And he drew this wonderful caricature of three of his colleagues, much older than him,
12:13gentlemen, venerable directors of Tata's sons in their 80s, all bald.
12:18And he drew these three bald pages in the back from the rear.
12:23These were Mr. Sabawala, Sudawala and Setna.
12:26And later he showed it to them and they were really pleased with his artistic efforts.
12:31And he actually made a print of this and sent it out to the three of them, titling it The
12:35Three S's by Ratan Tata.
12:37So a man who is, you know, great fun to be with, very simple, very decent, fun loving
12:43human being.
12:45You know, you have a smile on your face when you talk about him so fondly, and this just
12:50goes to show the kind of impact he's left on people like you who was lucky and fortunate
12:55to work with him. Also, one line that I read that said, one wet monsoon evening, not many
13:00moons ago, dog lover Ratan Tata had had decreed that any strays outside the Tata
13:06headquarters in downtown Mumbai be allowed shelter.
13:10He goes on to say the writer that some never left, but the man himself is no more.
13:15When did all this start?
13:17Do you think when we talk about Tataji with a lot of fondness, we talk about philanthropy
13:21and the amount of work he's done to give back to the nation, to the humans.
13:26Was this early on or did this come with age, time and I guess just life?
13:32I guess a bit of both, but, you know, he'd always been a dog lover, he had this first
13:39sensation that earlier on in his chairmanship, he took in a dog that he called Tito and he
13:47became very, very close to it.
13:48And it's a bit to do with also the fact that, you know, at that rarefied level of being
13:54the head of a very large corporate enterprise, when you have very few friends, very few people
13:58you can open up with, you are looking for companionship.
14:01And remember, he was a bachelor, so there's very little close family within his quarters.
14:07So he became very attached to Tito.
14:11And I think years later, when Tito passed on, he brought in two more dogs, Tito and
14:17Tango.
14:18And that remained an abiding passion for him to really, you know, take care of dogs.
14:25Wherever he went, if he saw dogs, he'd sort of walk to them and they would walk to them.
14:31And he insisted later on that in Bombay House as well, a shelter be created for the strays
14:37that were around Bombay House, all of them were provided collars.
14:41So really a man who cared about the well-being of, you know, pretty much all living things.
14:47And in that context, let me also say that a great believer in environmental protection,
14:53it was his doing that led to CII, the Confederation of Indian Industry, creating his environment division.
15:00He was, I think, the only Indian industrialist who was involved at the Earth Summit way back
15:04in 1992 in drafting an important seminal document for global industry called Changing Course.
15:11So somebody really was concerned about life and the quality of life in all its dimensions
15:18for all living beings, certainly including human beings, but also animals.
15:23Mukund, take us through, you know, the way he planned the entire succession for the entire group,
15:32not just from the corporate side of it, but also from the philanthropy side of it.
15:37How he brought in some of the good professionals and corporate heads to be part of those philanthropy,
15:43Vijay Singh or Venu Srinivasan, heading those trusts, which is now as vice chairperson of those trusts.
15:53Well, I don't think it would be fair for me to say very much because I was not privy to some of the thought process.
15:58Some of those appointments have happened in recent years when I'd lost touch with him.
16:03But I would say this, that he was not somebody who at all was concerned about family,
16:11about religion or community. He always looked out for the best person for the job.
16:19So expectations, for instance, that succession would happen within the family or succession would happen
16:25necessarily within the Parsi community, I think were quite unfounded.
16:30And he's demonstrated that repeatedly in the leadership roles that he offered a number of people,
16:35both from within the group, as well as lateral hires that were made into data science, into various data companies.
16:43So I don't think from a succession perspective, he would have been concerned about the genetics,
16:50but he was certainly concerned about merit. And that is something that I think he strived to do.
16:56Obviously, there were colossal and tragic failures, in particular, the fallout between him and Cyrus Mistry,
17:04which I think led to a series of events which perhaps he had not planned.
17:09But one can only hope that now, in the wake of his passing, good sense will prevail and the right thing will be done
17:17in terms of ensuring that both in the Tata group as well as the charities, his thought process,
17:24that the best person for the job should be appointed always.
17:28You know, I'm glad we're talking about all parts of his life, the challenging ones as well,
17:35because obviously, such a storied life comes with its ups and downs.
17:38But how he dealt with those challenges is what's important.
17:40And Mr. Damani, I want to come to you on that.
17:43At the end of the day, when we look at the legacy, and we've spoken about the philanthropy,
17:47we've spoken about the charitable businesses, the interest in startups.
17:52But if you had to sum up the kind of wealth creation and contribution to India, the Indian economy,
18:00you know, your top software company, your cutting edge automobile company,
18:06of course, every side of the business which has been covered, how would you sum that up?
18:11I mean, it starts not with him, actually, 100 years ago, the Tata legacy and setting up Tata Iron & Steel in Indian hotels.
18:19At the time, it was a funny idea to do that.
18:22I think he carried the legacy forward that Jamshedji did and JRD did by internationalizing the group.
18:28That was the first thing he did.
18:29And by, you know, focusing on, you know, the wealth creation, the return on capital,
18:34which ultimately led to it becoming the most serious conglomerate out of India.
18:39And as I mentioned earlier to you also, that a large part of this bull market has been led by Tata shares.
18:45That's a bit underappreciated because they always do well.
18:48And these are the shares that investors go for safety in good times, in bad times.
18:53Investors, I think they have the most loyal shareholder base that I can think of any company in India.
18:58There are people who allegedly would never sell the Tata shares no matter what.
19:01And I think for good reason, because they've always been a custodian for shareholders.
19:05And the shares over time have appreciated, you know, many fold.
19:08So I think part of his legacy, of course, was that he remade the group in his own image by internationalizing the group,
19:15by making sure that they focused on earnings and making sure that they delivered for the shareholders too,
19:21apart from, of course, the philanthropic and the other causes that he was known for.
19:25Ramesh, a question and it is good.
19:28Well, I've been to Mukund Rajan as well, but Ramesh, I'm asking this to you
19:32because you would have looked at this from an investing lens for such a long time.
19:36It would take some effort for a group to be the first name
19:43when it comes to anything related to ESG valuations, right?
19:48No matter what happened to profits, no matter what happened to revenues.
19:51But, you know, when you speak to every global investor that when they think of investing into a Tata group,
19:56they are like everything else notwithstanding.
20:00The ESG quotient is completely clear.
20:02Corporate governance is extremely clear.
20:04And there are many groups like that.
20:05But this one always kind of came out as first amongst equals.
20:09It would take some serious effort, right, Ramesh?
20:11Decade after decade to maintain that and come out trumps.
20:17I mean, from an investor's lens, Ramesh, what would go behind such a thing?
20:22Yeah, Neeraj, I think the thing that will be examined in business schools and by corporate analysts
20:29is what happened in Tata Finance around the turn of the century
20:33when they had a bad management team out there
20:36that had milked the basic finance of the company by investing in speculative stocks
20:42on the large street, as a matter of fact.
20:44And when a whistleblower pointed this out, a thorough investigation was committed.
20:49They realized what had happened.
20:51And instead of sweeping it under the carpet and saying,
20:54well, our liability is limited to the extent of our contribution to the capital,
20:58I think Tata came out with a statement saying that we will hold responsibility for everything,
21:04no matter we are legally responsible or not.
21:06In fact, if you read the latest book by Mr. Gopal Krishna and Harish Bhatt,
21:10they'd even kept a helicopter on standby.
21:13If someone in outer India wanted money at a moment's notice, they would fly the money in there.
21:18As it turned out, the trust in the Tata brand name was so strong
21:21that no one really requested the money and everything went smoothly.
21:25But I think there are very few iconic brands in India where people instinctively know
21:30that everything is going to be fair and everything is going to be up on board.
21:33And I have no doubt that Tata's, and thanks a lot, large part to Mr. Ratan Tata's legacy,
21:40stands as one of those brands in India that is undiminished, undiluted.
21:44And I think as one of the papers said this morning, he was a true Ratan.
21:48He definitely was a true Ratan.
21:51Mukund, you know, I think Neeraj talked to Ramesh about ESG,
21:55and I know how close to your heart ESG is.
21:59Two topics that are close to your heart, of course, Ratan Tata and ESG.
22:03You want to talk to me and tell me about the impact he's left on you as an individual
22:07and the fact that you actually work in the ESG space.
22:10Would you thank Tata sir for that, or the career that he charted out for you in more ways than one?
22:16And also just for our viewers, one memory that's been, you know, etched in your mind forever,
22:22which was with Tata sir.
22:26So one of the reasons I joined the Tata's through the Tata administrative service,
22:31and he in fact interviewed me for the Tata administrative services,
22:35the chairman of the selection committee in 1994,
22:39was the fact that Tata's were one of those rare Indian groups at that time
22:43that were genuinely committed to the cause of the environment.
22:46And environment had been the subject of my master's and doctoral dissertations at Oxford University
22:53when I came back and interviewed with him.
22:56The one thing that I will remember is after he invited me to join his office,
23:01I remember telling him that, Mr. Tata, I need you to know that, you know,
23:05I have a master's and a doctorate, but that's in political science.
23:08I don't have an MBA.
23:10So are you really sure that you want to go ahead with this appointment?
23:13And will I really be able to add value to you?
23:16And his response to me was something that will be forever etched in my mind.
23:19He said, to succeed in the corporate world, all you need is good common sense.
23:25And that's something that was so true about the man.
23:28He followed his instinct and he did these huge, big, bold, ambitious moves.
23:35I don't think he crunched the numbers like some people necessarily would,
23:40but he had a broad vision and a broad sense of where he wanted to take the group.
23:43And that rubbed off on all of those people who joined and worked for the Tata's, worked for him.
23:49We didn't work for money. Tata's are never the best paid masters.
23:52But you work because you knew that this is a group that is dedicated to doing the right thing.
23:56And you could sleep easy at night knowing that corporate governance is in hand
24:00and no shortcuts should be taken, no compromises on ethics would take place.