Mat dos Santos, General Counsel, Managing Attorney, Our Children's Trust Grace S., Youth Plaintiff, Held v. State of Montana Moderator: Kristin Stoller, Fortune
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00:00It's being called a landmark climate lawsuit, and the first of its kind in the United States.
00:06A group of young Montanans, aged 5 to 22, sued the state, arguing that it put fossil
00:13fuels over their health.
00:16The court agreed, ruling that the state's actions violated their constitutional right
00:21to a clean environment.
00:23One of the young plaintiffs and an attorney on the case is going to join Fortune's editorial
00:29director Kristen Stoller in just a moment.
00:33But first, we want you to hear from Elizabeth Stern.
00:38She's part of the Swiss Female Climate Elders, who also won a case against their government
00:44for not doing enough about climate change.
00:47It's another example of how private citizens across generations and borders are taking
00:54climate matters into their own hands and prevailing.
01:00Climate change is affecting women above the age of 75 very strongly during prolonged heat
01:06waves.
01:07That is the population group that more likely dies prematurely.
01:13We are all women who have been activists all our lives.
01:16We knew how to fight for our rights in the peace movement, then the environmental movement,
01:22the women's movement.
01:24So what is my message for young people?
01:28First of all, a big thank you that they are putting part of their young life, which is
01:34meant for learning, for playing around, that they have to work on something that should
01:40be a given for them, like it was a given for me.
01:44So to these young people, I applaud you.
01:48Now you won.
01:50You are on the winning side.
01:52And just keep going on to spread the message.
01:56All right.
01:59Good morning, everyone.
02:01Thank you for joining us.
02:02And great message from Elizabeth Stern.
02:04I'd like to welcome Matt DeSantos, General Counsel and Managing Attorney from our Children's
02:09Trust, the legal nonprofit group that brought the case on behalf of the plaintiffs, and
02:13Grace S., who is one of the young plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the state of Montana.
02:17Now because Grace is a minor, we're withholding her last name for her privacy.
02:21So Matt, I want to start with you.
02:22So we just heard from Elizabeth Stern in the Swiss case.
02:26Can you talk to me a little bit about how you advise the Swiss woman, and then how that
02:30also relates to your case and give us a brief summary of the Montana case?
02:34Sure.
02:35Thanks so much for having us and for allowing us to speak to all of you.
02:38It's really a pleasure to be here.
02:42The case that you just heard about, which we colloquially call the Swiss grannies case,
02:47is really remarkable.
02:48They set a new precedent in Europe looking at human rights from the lens of an incredibly
02:55vulnerable population, right?
02:57Older women who have huge, huge reactions to extreme heat, whose bodies may not be able
03:04to tolerate different climate consequences.
03:07And that's what we do at our Children's Trust.
03:10By representing children, we're representing one of the most vulnerable populations in
03:14the world.
03:15Two billion lives, right?
03:17Two billion children's lives are at stake because of climate change.
03:21And it's not just because children born today are going to live with the consequences of
03:27our choices, right, for the next 90 years.
03:30But it's because for the first 26 years of their lives, we know that their brains, circulatory
03:36systems, lungs, are all developing.
03:39And having climate pollution or extreme heat will have lasting consequences on the rest
03:44of their lives.
03:45Amazing.
03:46Grace, why did you decide to get involved?
03:48So I first started thinking about environmentalism early in high school, where I was working
03:55specifically on plastics reduction in my hometown.
03:58And during doing research for that project, I read that the US uses 50 million plastic
04:05straws a day.
04:06And I was like, that's a little bit more than I can handle on my own.
04:10And so I was looking for ways to have a bigger impact.
04:15And around that time, I heard about this lawsuit that was happening in Montana.
04:19And I was like, that's pretty cool.
04:21And I talked to my parents, and they were like, well, it's probably not going to go
04:24anywhere, but it would be a great learning experience.
04:26So then I emailed the attorneys and became a plaintiff in this case.
04:29And I think that the point here is that I was looking for a way to have a bigger impact.
04:33And for me, at that time, that meant approaching the government and asking the government to
04:39take control to do what they are responsible for in protecting both the environment and
04:44their people.
04:45Amazing.
04:46Matt, do you feel like this case, and I guess, Grace, this is for you, too, but do you feel
04:48like this case is already creating a precedent for others?
04:52Yeah, sure.
04:53And so I think that any time you have a victory like this, cases around the world will look
05:00at it, right?
05:02So even though it's in Montana, and it's binding only on the Montana courts, right now, I know
05:08that there are other cases that are moving forward that are actively citing the Held
05:13v. State of Montana case.
05:15And in fact, we had another big victory just this year in Hawaii, and part of Hawaii's
05:21willingness to come to the settlement table and really reach this one-of-its-kind settlement
05:28agreement with us where the state of Hawaii has agreed to decarbonize their entire transportation
05:33system, not net zero, zero emissions, by 2045, I think is a product of the incredible work
05:40that Grace and her co-plaintiffs did in Montana.
05:43Amazing.
05:44And I know we have some images to illustrate the fight that you're going through and some
05:48of you with Grace as well.
05:50And here we are, which are great.
05:51I love these.
05:53Grace, why do you think it's important to center a case like this on young people?
05:57Because we saw with Elizabeth, they centered it on a, as Matt calls it, the Swiss grannies.
06:01What is so important about the youth?
06:03Well, you know, I have mixed feelings about this, so I'll give you the full transparent
06:08answer here.
06:09On one hand, I think it's super important to center youth because we are extra vulnerable.
06:13We will be around for many more decades, hopefully, and so that gives us more time to be influenced
06:19by climate change, to see our lives changed by this.
06:24I think it's also, I have a resistance to how much conversation we have about centering
06:29youth these days because I worry that sometimes we talk so much about giving youth a platform,
06:34about putting youth, you know, in, you know, as part of the conversations that we're having
06:40that we don't actually listen to what the youth are saying.
06:43And I think the message has been very clear from youth for about a decade now in terms
06:47of the changes we want to see.
06:48You know, we want to see emissions reductions.
06:51We want to see a livable future.
06:54And I think that's probably enough to work with for now.
06:57I totally agree.
06:59And I want to come to the audience for questions in just a second, so start thinking of those.
07:04But Matt, one for you before that.
07:06What are the ramifications of lawsuits like this for U.S. energy policy?
07:11And what about corporations?
07:12How should they be thinking about this?
07:14Yeah, sure.
07:15So, I mean, in a, like a, what we're trying to do, right, through these state cases, and
07:21we also have a couple of federal cases here and in Canada and Mexico, is to create a clear
07:29pathway for green technologies to come in and replace what is a rather entrenched fossil
07:36fuel-based energy system.
07:38So I think that by setting the standard, so we're not, so, I mean, I'm sure folks have
07:43heard of the cases against the fossil majors that are happening everywhere, both for fraud
07:47and other things.
07:50Our approach is very different.
07:52We're trying to enshrine a constitutional right in state and federal constitutions around
07:58the world.
08:00That is a value, right?
08:02That value, meaning, like, if we prioritize a clean and healthful environment like we
08:06did in Montana or a livable climate like we do in Hawaii, that will have consequences
08:11on the choices and the priorities that governments and then, I think, industry make in developing
08:19our energy system.
08:20So while it is not a, like, A to B line, I think it's, our intention is to create a pathway
08:27for any emergent technology to have a viable opportunity as opposed to fighting against
08:35just the existing fossil fuel infrastructure.
08:37Yeah, if I can jump in here for a second, I think one of the things I've learned throughout
08:44being a part of this case, right, like I said, early high school, I was so confident that
08:48policy, that government was the way to have the biggest impact, because, you know, that's
08:54what you learn about in high school government classes, but, you know, over the course of
08:59this five years that I've been a part of this lawsuit, I've understood firsthand just how
09:05slow government processes can be, both, you know, bureaucracy and, you know, regulation
09:11and everything and also the court system also tends to take a bit, and so I've realized
09:17recently, like, within the last year, the power of the private sector, and especially
09:22in terms of your kind of dynamism, how nimble you all can be in your decision making and
09:28the way that you can drive change in our society, whether that's, you know, through public perception
09:35of what is right or whether that's through, you know, working with the government, but
09:39I think you have a lot of power in this in a way that I didn't understand before, I mean,
09:43I thought I was going to go into the government my whole life, and within the last six months
09:47I'm like, hmm, maybe I should take a look at that private sector, so I guess I applaud
09:51all the work that you're doing and I ask that you keep it up and that you set your standards
09:55even higher.
09:56Yeah, and I can say high school government did not prepare me for any of the stuff you
10:00learn in the real world, so it's important to get the real life experience.
10:04Any questions we have here in the audience?
10:06Okay, well, I have a lot more, so I'm going to ask away.
10:12Matt, why do you think tying climate justice to civil liberties is a winning strategy?
10:18Why do you think that's so important?
10:20Yeah, so you just have to look at the history of our country to understand that, like, children
10:29and civil liberties and, frankly, the ability to see sort of what is truth, what is justice,
10:37all go hand in hand.
10:40So prior to being at our Children's Trust, I was at the ACLU where I worked on a lot
10:45of issues on behalf of LGBT young people who had been discriminated against, immigration
10:51rights, and one of the things that I think we're sort of seeing is this through line
10:58of all of these various causes going back to desegregation, suffrage, where children
11:05are really at the forefront, and often when we are making these decisions as a country
11:12about our values, we are thinking about our future generations.
11:17Maybe it's our niece and nephew or our grandkid or our newly born daughter, and I think that
11:23ultimately we should just be listening to them for some of the solutions on some of
11:30these intractable problems because folks like Grace, I think, have great answers.
11:34Amazing.
11:35And I see we do have an audience question.
11:37If you could state your name, title, and company, too, that would be great.
11:40My name is John Mentel with Deloitte, and the question I had is can you talk a little
11:45bit about what actually was the decision, what will be the practical effect, like what
11:51changes in Montana as a result of the decision?
11:55Sure.
11:56So the district court, so in Montana there's no middle court of appeals.
12:01There's the district court and the Supreme Court.
12:03The district court in Montana essentially held that Grace's constitutional rights had
12:12been violated, that the statute that prohibited Montana from evaluating emissions or climate
12:21impacts when siting a new power plant was unconstitutional.
12:26So the very immediate practical effect was the striking down of that statute, which prohibited
12:33them from even assessing climate impacts when they were siting a new power facility.
12:41But there are sort of broader impacts, I think, that we'll have to see, I think, a little
12:46bit what the Supreme Court says in Montana.
12:49But the broader impacts is that, like the judge said, every additional ton of carbon
12:54emissions is a constitutional violation at this point because we have already put the
13:02dial way past 100.
13:04And so what does that mean for the future?
13:07I think that likely means that now every new power facility will have this much higher
13:13threshold standard to satisfy before being cited, and children's constitutional rights
13:20will have to be part of the equation when they're making these decisions.
13:24And Matt, I think the audience may have also heard of another big case that our Children's
13:28Trust worked on, which was Juliana versus the United States.
13:31So that was a climate case that spanned nearly a decade and three presidential administrations,
13:37which I think is absolutely wild.
13:39What did you learn from that case that you took into the Montana one?
13:43Yeah, I mean, so Juliana is a big federal case that it's looking at the substantive
13:48due process clause.
13:50Like many of us in this room, myself included, have rights today that did not exist when
13:57I was born, right?
13:58I can marry my partner who was born the same sex as I was, which was emerged as a right
14:08from the federal constitution in 2015 after the Obergefell decision.
14:13Juliana seeks to enshrine a similar substantive due process right, but a right to a livable
14:20future, a right to a stable climate in our constitution.
14:26One of the things that I think we learned through Juliana was that the federal courts
14:31are going to take a long time, and that having an effective state-by-state case strategy,
14:38and really, we looked at the same-sex marriage cases when thinking about this, was really
14:43something that we needed to be investing in.
14:46Because in order to move, I think, the federal courts, there needs to be a groundswell of
14:51movement from the states first.
14:54Yeah.
14:55Grace, what's next for you?
14:56Because eventually, you're no longer going to be a youth activist.
14:58Where are you going to take this and your case next, and how are you going to work to
15:02support climate change?
15:03Great question.
15:04I'm trying to graduate first.
15:05That's key.
15:06Yeah.
15:07So that's my plan.
15:11My interest now is kind of almost in reaction to our lawsuit.
15:17I've realized the impacts that this will have on Montana that I think generally are awesome,
15:23but I think a lot of the resistance in the state comes from the fact that our state is
15:28traditionally a fossil fuel state.
15:30We are still massive coal producers.
15:33And of course, I think that needs to change for the climate, but I also see the impacts
15:36that that will have on our communities, right?
15:39And so my interest now is how do we go about these energy transitions in coal communities
15:45and ensure that these places will still be around afterwards, right?
15:49Because we have this mine in Montana, in Butte, Montana, which you may have heard of,
15:54that massive copper mine.
15:56And when the mine shut down, the city was just decimated.
16:00And so I want to make sure that that doesn't happen for these Montana communities.
16:04And so now I'm looking at this concept of a just transition, but particularly for rural
16:09native communities, places that are often not considered in this utility-driven transition.
16:18Amazing.
16:19And Matt, for you, we're, as we all very much know, we're in the midst of another election.
16:23How are you looking at what could happen next month and how that could affect your future
16:28cases and the one that you have going on right now?
16:31Yeah.
16:32The panel this morning was interesting and, sorry, you know, look, we're going to be,
16:43one of the things that's true about our Children's Trust is that we've litigated, no matter who
16:47is in office, right?
16:48Because governments today have basically invested in this fossil fuel infrastructure that had,
16:56you know, for the last 50 plus years, while many of them very actively knowing about the
17:02consequences.
17:03And so in some ways, it is not important to us who's in office because our cases are really
17:12about these, you know, like, how do we change the future of what is, you know, about our
17:19constitutional values?
17:20How do we use our values to change our future decisions?
17:25But at the same time, of course it's important, right?
17:27Like the person who holds the, I think somebody said yesterday that, you know, people take
17:34their cues from the government, which I think it was the mayor of Atlanta actually said
17:39that, that people can take their cues from their government.
17:40And I think it's so true.
17:42And so if you have somebody in office who's an active climate denier, I think that's a
17:49problem.
17:50I think that's a setback for us and it makes it harder to have these conversations, whether
17:54we're having them around, you know, a conference like this or at the dinner table with our
17:58friends and neighbors or in the policy arena.
18:02And so, you know, of course, you know, I have my, my hopes and dreams about the outcomes
18:08of the election that I can't talk about because I run a 501c3.
18:14And but that's for later, but I, but I think that, but it really does matter.
18:21It does matter quite a bit.
18:22Yeah.
18:23And I would like to add that it shouldn't because I'm from a state that, you know, now
18:29is solidly red, but historically has been able to blend this idea of conservatism and
18:36conservation, which you might notice have the same root word there.
18:39And so I think it's important to recognize that climate has been politicized, obviously.
18:44I'm hoping you all have thought about this before.
18:46Climate has been politicized, but, but it doesn't have to be right.
18:50It doesn't have to be a political issue.
18:52It's about rights.
18:53It's about economic progress.
18:55It's about how we're going to come out of this challenge ahead of where we are now.
19:00And I'm, I just want to acknowledge how sad it is that it's been taken into that political
19:04arena with such venom attached to that conversation.
19:08Yeah.
19:09Well, very well said.
19:10And thank you both so much for joining me.
19:11I appreciate it.
19:12Yeah.