Watford reaction, Dan Neil talk plus Chris Rigg and Patterson transfer gossip
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast, brought to you by the Sunland Echo, my name is Jason
00:26Jones, joined by James Copley, no Phil Smith this week, he's on reg press conference duties
00:33so you're stuck with the two of us but I'm sure we'll muddle through it, won't we James?
00:38Not really the conversation we're going to be having on a Monday morning is it? Sunland
00:41obviously recording their second loss of the championship campaign. Has James Copley disappeared
00:48on me? That's the question that I'm asking. Yeah, 2-1 defeat at Watford, went down to
00:54Vicarage Road. Apologies. You're back, you're with me? I'm back, it's a hairy moment now.
01:00I wonder where you went there. Yeah, 2-1 defeat at Vicarage Road, obviously fell behind in
01:05the first half, a pretty flat first half display I think it's fair to say from Sunland, came
01:09back into the game and then late on Dan Neil conceded a penalty, Watford came away with
01:14all three points. I mean obviously you were at the match James, just interested to get
01:19your thoughts on it all really. Yeah, I thought the first sort of 30 minutes was really pulled
01:24by Sunland's pretty reasonable high standards that they've set so far this season. I thought
01:30Watford looked really powerful, Sunland's press wasn't there, Watford were counter-attacking
01:35quite well, that midfield balance didn't look quite right for Sunland surprisingly. You
01:42know I'd love to criticise him because I absolutely love him but I think it was probably Chris
01:46Riggs' worst half in a Sunland shirt, I think that's fair to say. I mean he didn't have
01:51a howl or anything but he wasn't exerting his usual influence which I guess in its own
01:56way is a massive compliment to him and his talents and the standards he's already set
02:00for himself because he is so young and that is worth remembering. So I'm not criticising
02:05Chris Riggs too heavily but I just thought Sunland, Watford, I thought Watford's midfield
02:10really sort of disrupted them. Moussa Sissoko, I was hoping to see that his legs had gone
02:18and he was actually quite good in the middle of the park, he dictated things really well.
02:23So it was a disappointing opening 30 minutes. I thought Sunland came back well towards the
02:30back end of the first half and then started the second half really well with good value
02:33for the equaliser and as the game wore on I thought if there was one team that was going
02:39to win it, it was actually going to be Sunland. The caveat to that is that Hulme produced
02:43a good block, I think it was in the second half and Watford did have chances but I did
02:50feel like Sunland were in the ascendancy and then that penalty I think comes against the
02:54run of play. It's obviously a daft decision by Dan Neil to go in there and talk about
02:59it. I did think he struggled in that six rule but yeah, really frustrating day at the office
03:04especially because I think the two games Sunland have lost this season against Plymouth and
03:09Watford in the league, I think they probably should have had something out of both. Individual
03:15errors have sort of let them down a little bit but I think still second in the league
03:20onwards to a really big week coming up at the Stadium of Light against Derby County
03:26on Tuesday, Leeds United on Saturday, four points, six points and then all is sort of
03:32forgotten isn't it? So really frustrating I think, especially because the away end was
03:37so excellent as well, it would have been fantastic to see the carnage if there was
03:41a late winner but unfortunately it went the other way.
03:45I mean you mentioned there obviously two games now with Sunland that have dropped points
03:49in the Championship but two performances that on balance probably warranted at least a point
03:54out the back of them. I mean Reg Libris seemed fairly upbeat in the aftermath of this game
04:01and do you think maybe there's that sort of recognition there from him that even though
04:04the results haven't gone the right way, there's a character in the Sunland team and they can
04:08dig themselves out of holes and they can give a good enough account of themselves to suggest
04:13that maybe they shouldn't be losing these matches?
04:16I think the head coach was really pleased that Sunland had found themselves struggling
04:22in a game tactically and they'd managed to sort of correct that for large parts of the
04:27second half. He was moderately upbeat I would say, although he's never too high and never
04:34too low. I think that's the beauty of Regis Libris, he's never one way or the other, like
04:38when Sunland have won a significant amount of games at the start of the season he's never
04:43too sort of out there, he's sort of temperate expectations and it was sort of similar with
04:48the loss. He said it was aspects of the game that were pleasing for him because Sunland
04:54are building that culture, building that game model, but he also recognised as well that
05:00whilst Sunland are building the culture and the game model and learning about each other
05:04and learning about the way Libris wants to play, is that they also have to win games
05:07that have set a good standard for themselves. So yeah, it was a very typical post-match
05:13Regis Libris interview. He was very, very good on the intricacies of the game where
05:19he thought it went wrong. He was full of praise for Watford as well. And then it came to injuries
05:25and he was quite coy about that. So it's just, you know, typical Libris, not too high, not
05:29too low. And I think that's a good quality for this young Sunland squad at the moment.
05:34He spoke a little bit about Dan Neal as well and he actually praised Dan Neal for aspects
05:39of his performance, the tactical discipline to sort of drop into a back five at times
05:43against Watford. He did look out of sorts to me in the sixth Dan Neal, but yeah, it's
05:50just, it is hugely frustrating because I think Sunland were good value for a point and they
05:56had chances as well. Obviously the positive with Isidor scoring as well, but yeah, onwards
06:02to the next one.
06:03I mean, obviously Dan Neal has been a large topic of conversation in the aftermath of
06:09the match. It does feel as if his performances have been seized upon a little bit by the
06:15fan base. I mean, you know, when we're talking about Saturday's game, you're saying he maybe
06:19didn't quite look himself. I mean, what do you put that down to? And also, you know,
06:24the penalty, you know, it's a bad tackle. I think we can all agree it's a daft mistake.
06:28The lad's come out and said it himself, but you know, is it important to sort of have
06:33some perspective here, keep some context as to how good he's been generally over the past
06:37however many seasons now?
06:39Yeah, I think he's played something like 130 games in the AFL at 22 years old, which is
06:46a phenomenal achievement for the majority of those games he's been good. I think there's
06:51a microscope on Dan Neal because of the captaincy. There's a lot of chatter about whether the
06:56captaincy is weighing heavy on him as a local lad, as an academy graduate, as a player who
07:02is, yes, experienced, but still relatively young in life at 22 years old. I find it very
07:11hard to analyse that personally, because there are leaders within Sunderland's group as well
07:17sharing that responsibility. But we are only seven games into his captaincy, so I find
07:22it very, very difficult to sort of say that it's changed him as a player or that it's
07:27weighing heavily. Perhaps it is or it has in those early games, but I don't think it's
07:32time to sort of dispense with Dan Neal's captaincy or anything like that. That's a little bit
07:38too far for me. The tackle is daft, yes, of course. It's unneeded. Watching it live, I
07:44thought maybe it's last ditch and he's felt like he had to make that tackle. But when
07:48you watch the replay, I think it's Sergans is there covering. So, yes, it's a dangerous
07:53situation. But did he really need to jump in? Probably not. He'll live and learn. It'll
07:59hurt him a lot because he's a professional. It's his club and he's captain in that club.
08:06It comes within the context as well as he got that red card against Burnley. He's had
08:11a red card against Middlesbrough as well last season, and I think Sheffield United
08:15away from memory the season before. So, you could argue that he does have a red card in
08:21him every now and again. The flip side to that is he's come out and taken responsibility,
08:28which is good. We spoke to Trae Hulme after the game. He's held his hands up. So, he absolutely
08:33needs to learn from his actions because it has ultimately cost the team a point or three
08:39points. Where I sort of go a little bit awry is this sort of heavy criticism of Dan Leo
08:47and the suggestion that he isn't actually a really, really good player. He is. He's
08:52a good, good footballer. I described him as a wonderful footballer after the game, and
08:57I stand by that. I think he is. He's going through a little bit of a dip in form. The
09:03maturity he's shown, actually, given his age, to come in and play a withdrawn role for Sunderland
09:09ever since Corey Evans was injured, really. He's played further back, which isn't his
09:13natural game, I don't think, and for the most part, he's done it well. Yes, there's been
09:18games where there's been mistakes and a little bit of ill-discipline, but I just don't think
09:23we should be crucifying the lad. It's absolutely fair to speculate about the captaincy, I think.
09:31I think that's a very valid discussion point. It's a very valid discussion point to talk
09:36about whether he's good in a six or whether he should be playing further forward, whether
09:42Salis comes in when he's fit and pushes Dan Leo forward. I think it's valid to say, does
09:46Dan Leo need a couple of games out of a team with Alan Brown, hopefully, approaching fitness?
09:52But I think this suggestion that he's no good, this suggestion that there's not a player
09:58there, is just wrong for me, because I think there is a player there. We should be rallying
10:04around him and protecting him. There's a reason big clubs want Dan Leo. There's been
10:11a suggestion as well that his contract situation might be weighing on his mind. I don't think
10:16that would be the case. There's still two years left on his deal. Obviously, I don't
10:21know the player, I haven't spoken to him, but I think he's a really good professional,
10:25so I'm not sure that's an issue. But again, as I said earlier, good performances against
10:32Derby and Leeds and all will be forgotten. But I just think that the amount of good that
10:37Dan Leo has done for Sunderland over his two and a half, three seasons, whatever it is
10:44now in the team, outweighs the bad. I get it, it's frustrating, but let's not crucify
10:50him.
10:51Yeah, I mean, I always see Dan Leo as something of a litmus test. I think there are those
10:57who really see him for what he is and who really appreciate him. Then there are some
11:02who maybe scapegoat him just a little bit. I sometimes wonder if it's maybe a little
11:09bit easier to do that because he is an academy graduate and because he is sporting the armband
11:12as well. I think maybe one of the big questions that people have is that because he's being
11:16given the armband, then how easy is it to take him out of that team? Because Sunderland
11:21have the options now. Sam Edge, like you say, coming to fitness, he is a natural sitting
11:26player, he was playing Champions League football last year. Alan Brown has been wonderful since
11:30he joined the club in the few performances that we've seen from him prior to the injury.
11:34Does the captain's armband, I suppose, does that make it harder to drop Neil?
11:40I sort of have mixed feelings about this. For me, no, it doesn't make it harder because
11:4509 is the club captain anyway, so surely if he's playing, he just gets the armband. So
11:50it's not really a question of like, you know, Dan Leo is the leader of this team and he's
11:55undroppable because he's captain and there's sort of nobody else behind him.
12:00Like there are other leaders in Sunderland's squad. So taking a player out of the firing
12:05line, although it might hurt his pride, for sure, like I don't see it as big as an issue
12:13if he can, you know, take him out the firing line, get his head sorted a little bit maybe.
12:18But, you know, the flip side to that is that sometimes the best way to handle a mistake
12:22is just to play the next game. I remember Ekwer, I think, gave away the penalty for
12:28a three-all or a 4-4 draw against Hull City towards the back end of that championship
12:32playoff season and, you know, Mulberry just put him in the next game. He wasn't dropped
12:37and he actually repaid Mulberry with some really good performances. So there's two sides
12:42to the coin. I personally don't think it makes it harder to drop him, especially with Sunderland's
12:48options in midfield. When everybody's fit, it does, at the end of the day, have to be
12:52a meritocracy. However, within that meritocracy, I don't agree with the school of thought that,
12:57you know, Dan Neal isn't a player because, for me, he quite clearly is. It's interesting,
13:03the homegrown academy thing, I think we do tend to be a bit harsher on our homegrown
13:07players and I look back and I'm not suggesting that Dan Neal's going to go and achieve everything
13:12that Jordan Henderson has in his career, but they are a similar type of player, similar
13:17position, similar stature, similar sort of pathway, although Jordan Henderson came through
13:21in the Premier League. And there were a lot of the same things that I've seen written
13:24on social media about Dan Neal were said about Jordan Henderson when he left, to be honest.
13:29So I would back Dan Neal to sort of prove the doubt was wrong. And I think the discussion
13:36about his role is very valid because, and I've said this on the podcast loads of times,
13:40for me, the player Dan Neal is, is that player that scored against Akrit and Stanley in League
13:44One, his first goal at the stadium and that sort of breaking the lines, I think he's good
13:49in an attacking sense. It's just circumstances at Sunderland have dictated over a large period
13:54of time that he's had to play in an unfamiliar role in an unfamiliar position. But I actually
13:59think he's done reasonably well there. I think he's performed there with distinction at times.
14:03Yes, he's had some issues recently, but hopefully they can be ironed out. I honestly think we
14:09just sort of need a back-up for me. I think, you know, as a fan base, we need a back-up.
14:14Whether he comes out of the team, I don't know and I'm not sure. But I think, yeah,
14:20as a club and as a fan base, you sort of need to support him.
14:25Yeah, and I think the other thing you sort of touched on it there is that, you know,
14:29given the wealth of options that Sunderland now have in the middle of the park, it really
14:33wouldn't be a surprise if he were to drop out every now and again over the course of
14:38the season, you know, and there might even be a certain amount of expectation when you
14:42look at the fact that, you know, you've got a player like Samad who's come in and Sunderland
14:46have signed him for the immediacy of this season, you know, he's on loan. It's a one-year
14:51loan. There's not an option to buy in there. So it's not as if he's, you know, coming in,
14:55find his feet and then make a decision on him next summer. Samad's been brought in because,
14:59you know, he's a wonderful footballer, evidently, who can play in that position, which like
15:03you've said, has been something of a problem area of Sunderland. Not because Daniel hasn't
15:07played well there, because he has, but because he's not necessarily that natural sitting
15:12player that Sunderland have been lacking since Corey Evans picked up that injury, I suppose.
15:16So, you know, for me, like if Neil does come out of the team and I sort of agree with you,
15:21I don't think he should be coming out of the team anytime soon, anything like that. But
15:24if there are periods of the season where he does maybe drop out for a game or two, I don't
15:27think you read too much into that. I think you look at the rotation options that Regis
15:33Legris has available to him, which a lot of Sunderland managers in recent times haven't
15:37been blessed with.
15:38Yeah, and that was a major talking point last season, wasn't it? That Neil, Ekwet and Job
15:43played too much football and we couldn't rest them as much as we would have liked. So perhaps
15:47there's an element of that from last season with Neil as well, is that he's a bit sort
15:51of, you know, a bit fatigued already. I don't know. But yeah, I think it's perfectly natural
15:56and acceptable to have a bit of rotation in there. And I don't think the captaincy should
16:01stop that. And I think Dan Neil's, you know, he's clearly got a good temperament, I believe
16:06anyway, from the interviews I've seen of him over the years, that if he is, you know, if
16:11he misses out against Derby then comes in against Leeds or vice versa, I would back
16:16him to be fine with that and be professional about it.
16:20Absolutely, absolutely. Another big selection call that was sort of forced on Lebris over
16:25the weekend, obviously, Elisa Maienda picked up an injury, dropped out of the squad, Wilson
16:30Isidor started and scored as well, it has to be said, and was generally quite impressive up top.
16:36Yeah, I enjoyed his performance. He didn't get much in the first half, but there was
16:42a couple of occasions where, you know, we're haunted at Sunderland aren't we, by the spectre
16:48of Ross Stewart, because he was so good for us. And we haven't seen a player make those
16:53runs be as powerful, as you know, physically aggressive as Ross Stewart for a while. I
17:00thought Isidor showed sort of glimpses of being more towards that Ross Stewart type
17:05of player in terms of his physicality, in terms of sort of running in between the centre
17:10back and the full back, some of the runs he made were similar. You know, he's not exactly
17:14the same player as Ross Stewart, and I don't want to tag him with him being the new Ross
17:18Stewart, but I think he's a little bit more dynamic than perhaps some of Sunderland's
17:23options, like obviously a Naz Rusan playing up there wouldn't have been able to do what
17:26Wilson Isidor did in terms of his physicality and his height. He offers something different
17:32to Maienda, who I've been massively impressed with this season. So it's really important
17:37playing up front, your first start to get that goal, and he has. So that's the monkey
17:41off the back straight away, which is something we've seen dog Sunderland players really,
17:47you know, Naz Rusan, it took him a while, Hemiya didn't get one, Maienda took him alone
17:52in a whole season. So I think hugely important to get that. He seems a really good character
17:57as well from what I've seen of him. And, you know, a really good assist by Patrick
18:05Robertson, a really good run to get in there, sort of near post and a cracking finish. So
18:10yeah, hugely positive. One of the biggest positives to come away from it, you know,
18:13a strike, a score and a goal on his first start, fantastic. And Sunderland are going
18:17to need options up top coming into Derby and Leeds. So yeah, hugely pleasing performance.
18:22I thought it was interesting though, Jase, that like when we saw him for the under-21s,
18:27he definitely looked better off the left, didn't he? He looked like electric off the left.
18:31When he played through the middle, he looked a little bit off it, but it was the opposite
18:35this time around at Watford, he looked really good through the middle.
18:39I think that as a fan base, we're just going to have to learn to live with the fact that
18:43he's a versatile forward. He can do both of them and that's absolutely fine. And we should
18:49be grateful that he can do both of them. I agree with you. We saw him for the under-21s
18:54and he was brilliant off the left, wasn't he? And maybe didn't quite through the middle.
19:01That being said, one aspect of his game that I was impressed with, even when he was playing
19:05up front for the under-21s, was he receives the ball and just those little, smart, canny
19:13five-yard passes that just bring runners in around him and all that sort of stuff. I think he does
19:16that really well. And I think that if you look at a Sunderland striker situation, we could talk
19:25about it until we're blue in the face. We have spoken about it until we're blue in the face.
19:28We've been doing it for months now, since Stuart left, essentially, since Stuart got injured,
19:31really, if we're being honest about it. And two of the things that Sunderland strikers have
19:36maybe been lacking, you could argue, is the ability to bring those around them into the
19:41play consistently. And also the natural, instinctive movement, like you say, that idea,
19:49just the impulse to get across the front post for the tap-in, be there. The idea that he can
19:55run those channels and create headaches for centre-backs and full-backs simultaneously by
20:00never quite occupying a space that they would necessarily want him to be in as a defensive
20:05player. I think that those two facets to his game, if he can continue to show and build upon the
20:12things we've already seen, then there's no reason why he couldn't be a very effective player for
20:17Sunderland. And again, it's kind of coming back to what we're saying about the Neil Sammed thing.
20:21You look at it now and you go like, well, my end has been a good player. He's scored a couple of
20:26goals. He's had a really good start of the season. Does he deserve to drop out of the team? Probably
20:30not. Is the door scored at the weekend? So you look at it and you go, well, does he deserve to
20:34drop out of the team? Probably not. But for the first time in a while, maybe Sunderland have
20:38genuine options. Maybe they can genuinely rotate up front. And over the course of the 46-game
20:43campaign, when you then consider the likes of Aaron Connolly and Ahmed Abdullahi to come into
20:48the fold as well, it's an unusual problem for Sunderland fans to be considering. But it's also
20:55a nice one for them to consider. Yeah, definitely. It's good to have those options, obviously,
21:01with it being a 46-game season plus at least one FA Cup game in there as well. I think the squad
21:07does generally look a lot more wholesome than it did and able to absorb a few more injuries,
21:14although as many people sort of pointed out against Watford, the bench was looking a little
21:18bit thin perhaps with some of the injury issues. We should actually give a shout out, that reminds
21:23me, to Tommy Watson in the second half because when he came on, he looked very good. I've been
21:28a Tommy Watson advocate for a long time, having watched his performances for the under-21s,
21:33but I actually thought, as substitute appearances go, when your team's lost a game without
21:40scoring an assist, that was pretty much as good as it gets. He recovered well from his early
21:45blunder. I think it was his first touch on the field and it went massively wrong. But after that,
21:52I thought it was hugely, hugely positive. All of a sudden, Sunderland have got two really,
21:56really good wingers because Mundell had a decent game again, actually. But Watson coming off the
22:02bench is exciting. Hopefully, over the season, that competition for places develops. Obviously,
22:09Aaron Connolly is still to come in as well. Hopefully, the injuries aren't as bad and
22:17we're going to have that competition because I think, generally, the squad is
22:21fairly well fleshed out now, apart from full-back, I would say.
22:25Yeah, obviously, hopefully you would expect Sunderland to at least try and address that
22:31in the January window, I suppose. I thought you were going to say something.
22:38Yeah, no, the Tommy Watson thing, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because I've
22:41seen a few people say that they almost feel quite sorry for him, that he's broken in the
22:46first-team picture and he's behind Mundell. Mundell is obviously playing so well that he's
22:52not going to get many minutes. But I actually think that the other school of thought on that
22:57is that it gives him the time, it takes the pressure off, it allows him to continue his
23:03development. Whether that is floating between the 21s and the first team, whether that is as a cameo
23:08play for the first team, almost exclusively, it allows him to just continue on that trajectory.
23:15It's obvious that Tommy Watson is an immense talent. He's a wonderful footballer. The things
23:21that he's been doing for the 21s now for weeks, months on end, the individual goals that he
23:27scores, the ability that he has to literally take a game and change the entire course of it on his
23:34own, that can't be understated. But it's also a huge step coming up into the first team. I think
23:39that if we were looking at a situation where Mundell wasn't firing and suddenly you're looking
23:44at Tommy Watson as an 18-year-old, let's not forget, to be in that first team, to take up
23:49the mantle that Jack Clark has left, then that's a huge amount of pressure. Whereas I think where
23:53we're at right now, again, you talk about depth and it's the beauty of that depth. Mundell has
23:58started the season on fire. He's arguably been one of, if not Sunderland's, best players.
24:04And then if Watson can just sneak under the radar a little bit, suddenly in a year,
24:09year and a half's time, maybe he has that first team explosion. And then suddenly,
24:13Sunderland have another real player on their hands.
24:16No, I think you're absolutely right. And you're wholeheartedly right to raise the point that he
24:21is actually 18 and only turned 18 in April. So he's still really, really young. So whilst I get
24:29it and understand it, and I've done so myself, calling for Tommy Watson to get minutes, particularly
24:34towards the back end of last season, I just thought, if not now, then when? But obviously
24:39Sunderland had Jack Clark and he was coming back to fitness and such, with a view to sell
24:44him in the summer probably. So they probably wanted him out on the field. But he is a huge
24:49talent. We've seen it for the under-21s. And he looks and moves like Jack Clark as well. He's
24:55almost like a little bit of a Jack Clark clone. But yeah, I think it's sensible just to ease him
25:01in. I'm sure he'd love to play more, but having that experience around the first team, especially
25:06when they're winning and stuff like that, I think will be invaluable. But yeah, I'm looking forward
25:12to him getting minutes here and there. It would be lovely if we got, with all respect in the world,
25:18to a National League club in the FA Cup and he could start. I think that would be absolutely
25:25class. But yeah, hugely, hugely talented. And I would suggest, actually, if Brighton are bidding
25:29for you in the summer, their scouts tend to be fairly on the money with most things. So you must
25:36be pretty decent, I would suggest. Yeah, again, if you talk about litmus tests, I think popping up
25:42on Brighton's immense database is probably about as good as it gets, isn't it? Speaking of
25:50Sunderland players who are popping up on illustrious databases, Chris Rigg, linked with the biggest
25:57clubs in Europe, James, Real Madrid, Borussia Dortmund, Bayern Munich, Manchester United and now
26:03Birmingham City. I mean, no disrespect to Birmingham City, but this feels like a
26:10bit of a wild one, doesn't it? Do you want to just maybe talk us through that story, the breaking of
26:14it and also what the hell is going on? Yeah, so it's interesting. Obviously, it wasn't our story
26:23that Birmingham are interested this time around as a League One club. That came from Alan Nixon
26:28from The Sun. I think a few things you have to talk about is Birmingham City are splashing the
26:37cash at the moment. So this story comes within that context. Obviously, they paid like, I think
26:42it was 10 to 15 million quid for Jay Stansfield. So they've got money, they can spend it and they
26:47can actually spend it better in League One. So I'm guessing that's where this story sort of comes
26:53from. So I actually don't doubt that there's probably a little bit of interest and I don't
26:59doubt actually that Chris Rigg has been on Birmingham City's radar because he was on
27:03Birmingham City's radar last season when Tony Mowbray was the coach and the new owners had just
27:10come in. I know that for certain that Birmingham City looked at him and Tony Mowbray was sort of
27:18was driving that. So he's probably a name that's being mentioned at the club, but he's a name that
27:23has been mentioned at a lot of clubs and whether Birmingham City as a League One club could ever
27:29get him, especially for £10 million because I think he's worth a lot more than that already,
27:33to be honest, is probably sort of fanciful for them from their perspective. I don't think that's
27:39a move that would ever happen. So as I say, on that particular story, I don't doubt that there
27:45is a little bit of interest. I don't doubt that people at Birmingham City have talked about Chris
27:49Rigg because why wouldn't you? But I think being able to get him for £10 million as a League One
27:54club is completely pie in the sky, not going to happen. So obviously when that story came out, it
28:02drew a lot of criticism and attention and I completely understand and I get where it's
28:08coming from because it is ridiculous really. It's a ridiculous thought. It's a ridiculous
28:13sort of scenario, but their owners are a bit wild really, aren't they? I mean,
28:19fair play to them. They're having a right go in League One and they've paid a lot of money.
28:25But whilst it sounds silly really, and it is silly, the thought of Chris Rigg going to Birmingham
28:33City as things stand, I do genuinely believe that it's probably an accurate story in a sense.
28:42So there's the reality of it, which is it's probably never going to happen,
28:47but I think the other reality of it is that there is actually probably some interest there,
28:52as bizarre as it sounds. And again, I'll stress that loads of clubs are probably thinking like
28:57that because he is that good. So there's probably clubs up and down the land. I don't know this for
29:04certain, but we mentioned Brighton there. I bet you he's in Brighton's database. He's been looked
29:09at by Manchester United, Liverpool, Newcastle United. They'd be keen as well. Probably every
29:15Premier League club has got him on their list. So yeah, there's a huge amount of interest in him
29:21because of the players. But let's face it, he's not going to Birmingham City in League One. That's
29:25not happening. If he's leaving for Sunderland, it's going to be for a top-level elite club,
29:30I think. So it is a bizarre story. I think there's probably some truth to it, but it's just never
29:36going to happen. That would be my sort of analysis of it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm tempted
29:44to agree with you, to be perfectly honest. I think maybe they just want revenge for George
29:48Bellingham. Who can say? Maybe give us a bit of a bloody nose. I think the two things I would say on
29:55this, right? The first thing is that Sunderland could hardly be in a stronger position when it
29:59comes to Chris Rigg. He's only just signed his professional contract. That's long term. I mean,
30:03is it 2027 that runs till? Something like that? 27, 28? So there's a few years left on that.
30:10He's playing. He's in the first team. He seems to be absolutely loving his time at the club at the
30:15moment, you know? So it's not as if he could necessarily be tempted by the prospect of
30:21greater first team opportunities elsewhere right now, because he's made himself integral to the
30:26British's plans as things stand. But the other thing that I would say is just sort of, you know,
30:31scrolling through social media after the start of the rounds, you kind of get the impression that
30:39fans of other clubs still don't quite realise just how good this boy is. And, you know, the longer
30:46that remains the case, the happier I am, because if he did his whole career at Sunderland, I'd be
30:50buzzing because he's a special player and we spoke about him before, you know? But there were people
30:56talking about, you know, Birmingham fans talking about the Sandsfield fee and looking at it and
31:00going, well, if we bought a Premier League prospect for this much, then surely a championship
31:04prospect would be this much in relation to that. And I think that, you know, as this season
31:10progresses, it's going to become more and more undeniable that Chris Rigg is destined for the very,
31:16very top. And I think that, like I say, right now, maybe if you are unaware of who he is, maybe if
31:21you're not watching Sunderland every week like we are, you might look at it from a Birmingham
31:25perspective and go, well, you know, we're a club on the up. We've got some money. He's a young player.
31:29Why couldn't we make this work? But I think that the more minutes he gets in a Sunderland shirt,
31:33the more apparent it's going to become to everybody and not just Sunderland fans
31:37that Chris Rigg is genuinely something a little bit different. Like, you know, he is something
31:43that's going to take off at some point. And I think if any fan base should eventually come
31:48to empathise with that, it would be Birmingham. Because let's not forget, this is the club who
31:51retired Jude Bellingham's number, got roundly laughed out of the place for it. And now I think
31:57everybody at some point has probably issued them some sort of apology and just said, you know,
32:01might have got that one wrong, lads. Because, you know, the Rigg-Bellingham comparison, while I don't
32:06think that they necessarily serve Rigg particularly well, because I don't like that sort of thing,
32:09I think that it's unnecessary. And I think that it puts pressure on players where there doesn't
32:13need to be. I do also think that you can understand why people are making them. And like I say,
32:19the longer this goes on, the more I think it's going to become apparent that, yeah, you're right,
32:23Chris Rigg is probably not going to be going to Birmingham UC.
32:27Yeah, and he's worth more than 10 million already, isn't he, really?
32:30Yes.
32:31Let's face it. I think Chris Rigg is a player for me, the potential, and we always have a
32:37tendency to overvalue our own players, don't we, because we watch them week in, week out. But it's
32:42like 20 to 30 million for me. And then you're looking at like a whole range of add-ons and a
32:47sell-on percentage. I think the only thing would be, the only problem Sunderland would run into,
32:52is that when they get to the summer, obviously there'll probably be interest in January,
32:55but I couldn't see him leaving in January. When they get to the summer, he'll only have
33:00one year left of his first professional deal, won't he? So it'll be either have him sign a new
33:05contract or you'd have to get your money for him next summer, if that makes sense. So that would
33:14certainly, I think, be one to watch. But at the moment, I mean, I think we discussed it in the
33:19podcast, or maybe it was on one of the On The Whistle videos, but it's just like, just enjoy him.
33:26Just enjoy him while we've got him, because he is that good. And I know he had a bit of a shaky
33:31opening 30 or 45 minutes against Watford, but he's a joy to watch. His tenacity, his aggression
33:39is absolutely brilliant. And there'll be more stories like this, I imagine, over the coming
33:45months, with some clubs higher up the food chain. But yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of
33:51noise, but just enjoy him while he's here. And another transfer story from over the weekend,
33:57James, Anthony Patterson, more interesting name, apparently. Yeah, you know, this sort of
34:06won't go away, this Patterson being linked with top-level clubs. A player actually that
34:11came in for a little bit of criticism after the Plymouth game, didn't he?
34:15Saw some parallels to sort of Dan Neil, in a sense, like local lad, made a few mistakes.
34:21I think the sort of interest from the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool, Celtic, I understood that
34:27that was genuine in the summer. But in terms of like the Premier League clubs he would be going to,
34:34obviously Manchester United, the latest to be linked, it's usually as a number two,
34:39as a backup, with a view to maybe coming number one in the future. Now, whether you agree that
34:44Anthony Patterson could be a number one for like a top six Premier League club, I think there's a
34:49fair debate around that, given some of the deficiencies in his game. But the reality of him
34:54is that, I'll just check the figures, but he is 24 years old, which is really, really young for a
35:07goalkeeper. And he's played 143 senior games in all competition, with a loan at Notts County in
35:14there as well. So clubs will look at that and they'll see value there. And they'll probably
35:20see potential resale value as well. But I think it is, for Sunderland fans, you look at it and go,
35:28well, there are still a few deficiencies to his game. Obviously his distribution is the main one.
35:33Would that stop him from being a top level Premier League keeper and then stop him from taking that
35:38step from being a number two to a number one at a top six Premier League club? I think there's
35:43definitely a debate to be had about that. So in terms of the player, I think his stance was
35:50that he was happy playing for Sunderland last season and he didn't want to go anywhere and be
35:54a number two. If he was to go somewhere and be a number two, it would be sort of a guarantee of
35:59European games or cup games or, you know, X amount of starts here and there. So it's really,
36:06really interesting. But his sale would represent like pure profit to Sunderland. So it could allow
36:13them to manoeuvre in the market further on down the line. We know this model sort of relies on
36:19one or two player sales every summer to reinvest. Could I see Patterson becoming one of those
36:25eventually? Yes, absolutely. I'm in no rush to sell him because I rate him and I think he's done
36:30well for Sunderland. But I just do wonder about that deficiency in terms of his kicking, which
36:38I don't think actually is as bad as people make out. I think he's had a few dodgy games,
36:45which you would expect for a young goalkeeper. And I still categorise him as a young goalkeeper
36:50because 24 is really young for a goalkeeper. Yes, he's got a decent level of championship
36:54experience. Would that stop him sort of going on and becoming a fully fledged like top end
37:00Premier League goalkeeper? Very possibly. But, you know, 30 games in the Premier League with Premier
37:06League coaches might change that. I don't know. So I rate Anthony Patterson highly. I think that
37:11there is probably interest. Could I see him going in January? Absolutely not. I don't think there's
37:15any chance of that. Could I see him going at some point with Sunderland looking to reinvest
37:20the money? Possibly. But he's definitely one of Sunderland's success stories out of the academy.
37:27And I have absolutely no issue with him staying longer than January, longer than the summer,
37:32two, three years, because I rate him highly. I think his shot stopping ability is tremendous.
37:38Yeah, I would echo all of that, to be fair. I think that, you know, if there is a weakness
37:43in his game at the moment, it is his kicking. I agree that I don't think it is as direly
37:49catastrophic as some people would have you believe. And I think the other thing to point out
37:53is that there are moments in matches, even where his kicking hasn't been fantastic, where he's
37:58produced 40-yard diagonals and you go, this boy, he can play. He can play football. You know,
38:04he's got a good peg on him. It's just that it's maybe not quite there on a consistent basis. And
38:08I think that if he can just alter that slightly, if he can just make sure that fewer of those
38:16passes are going astray, fewer are going out of play, then, you know, it won't be a problem
38:20whatsoever. The one thing I would say is that a lot of the clubs that he's been linked with,
38:24you know, the likes of Arsenal, Man United, even Tottenham, there's such a high emphasis on the
38:29goalkeeper being able to play. And so that's kind of the one thing where he's at currently. And I
38:36do believe he can improve. And I do believe that he's not as bad as people say, where he's at
38:40currently, it does come as a little bit of a surprise to me that say, for instance, an Arsenal
38:44will be looking at him and going, yeah, I think he could be the successor to David Ryer, because
38:50it's only this summer that they've got rid of Aaron Ramsdale, because Nicoleta seemingly didn't
38:55trust him with the ball at his feet. So it's a bit of a weird sort of anomaly for me. But
39:01certainly, you know, we're talking about the fact that Tommy Watson's attracting interest from
39:06Brighton. This is another one where Paterson has his detractors, but the fact that he is
39:10consistently being linked with the likes of Liverpool, Manchester United, Tottenham,
39:15it would suggest that he's probably doing something right. Yeah, I think he's definitely
39:19doing a lot of things right. But I think, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? You mentioned,
39:24you know, Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United, it's interesting that they,
39:29how they're viewing Anthony Paterson, which is a compliment to him, because obviously, you know,
39:34they think he's good enough to come in and play for their football club. But the impression I get
39:40is that it would be like squarely as a number two, like I don't see him linked with any of these top
39:46six clubs coming in to take the place of a David Ryer or anything. It's always within the context
39:52as he would be firmly number two with a view maybe later on. So, in terms of his career
39:59progression, is that really worth it? Probably not. Probably wants to keep on playing games. So,
40:05I think, again, like Rigg, there's going to be a lot of talk and a lot of chatter, but
40:10for all of the interest actually in Anthony Paterson, which there was interest in Anthony
40:14Paterson from Wolves and Leicester, like probably 18 months ago, I don't think anybody's actually
40:20come in with a bid for him yet. Sunderland are really, really protected in terms of the contract.
40:27So, for all the chatter and stuff, nobody's actually come forward with any money yet and
40:33made Sunderland sort of make a decision. So, it's interesting. I don't doubt there's interest,
40:38obviously, but none of that interest has actually materialised into a bid yet. So,
40:43that's probably worth noting as well, I would say. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's probably
40:48all we've got time for, to be fair, James. So, we'll wrap it up there, but you can join us again
40:52next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and developments. In the
40:56meantime, you can follow along with all of the latest Black Cats news at the Sunderland Echo,
41:01or you can give us both a follow on social media as well. Thanks to James.
41:05Thanks to you for listening. See you again next week. Goodbye.