On "Forbes Talks," criminal defense lawyer Lauren Johnson Norris discussed the charges faced by Sean "Diddy" Combs, how much prison time he might face should be convicted.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Hi, everyone. I'm Maggie McGrath with Forbes Breaking News. Rapper Sean Diddy Combs was
00:08arrested in New York City on Monday. And today, Tuesday, the U.S. attorney for the Southern
00:14District of New York unsealed the charges against Combs, and they include trafficking
00:19and racketeering and more. Here to break this down for us is Lauren Johnson Norris. She
00:26is a criminal defense lawyer and the founder of the Johnson Criminal Law Group. Lauren,
00:32thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. So let's start broad. How did we
00:39get here? What is the background and the context we all need to know to understand this case?
00:45Well, over the last almost two decades, Sean Combs appears to have been involved in a criminal
00:52enterprise, bringing women to parties and using force and violence and guns to not
00:58only benefit himself, but as part of his business model. We saw in the last couple years that
01:06lawsuits have been filed, and I think it's that window that New York opened for civil
01:11lawsuits in 2023 that really brought in the floodgates of allegations against him. We
01:18started hearing rumors about his proclivities and sort of his behavior over the years, but
01:25it was only until these lawsuits were filed that multiple alleged victims came forward.
01:31Many of those cases were settled, but I think those facts are underlying what's being criminally
01:36prosecuted here. Interesting. So it took those victims coming forward basically for the law
01:42to build a case against him and then arrest him yesterday and unseal the charges today.
01:47Is that correct? It is. And what's interesting is New York opened a period of time for people
01:52to file old claims that might have otherwise been excluded under the statute of limitations.
01:58And when they opened that window, these lawsuits came in alleging conduct from over a decade
02:03ago, though it appears that Combs was involved from 2008 until even last year, some of the
02:11conduct that's been alleged. But yeah, I think it was that window and those civil suits that
02:15brought the U.S. attorney the evidence that they needed. So let's break down the charges.
02:20The U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York unsealed three big charges today.
02:26What are they? What do we need to know about them? So the first allegation is that there's
02:31a criminal enterprise. And what that means is that Combs used his business to conduct
02:35illegal activities. When we hear that with a conspiracy, that means that there are other
02:39people involved, though he's the only person that's been charged at this time. I know the
02:44Department of Justice is saying that perhaps there will be others they can't commit at
02:47this point. The investigation is ongoing. But there's also allegations that involve
02:53sex trafficking and using violence in order to compel people to commit, you know, acts
03:00of sex at his force and coercion, using violence and threats and even arson. And that obviously
03:07is something that is precluded by law. And they also allege racketeering. And that also
03:12relates to the RICO statute to the conspiracy. They're allowed to bring these charges under
03:19that statute as well. So all of this appears to have been a criminal enterprise using force
03:24and violence, drugging, arson and other criminal acts to get people to be trafficked.
03:32I was going to say you mentioned RICO, which I feel like we normally hear about in a business
03:36context and not in a sexual violence context. But what we have here just to zoom out a little
03:41bit is not just sexual violence, but allegations of a business around sexual violence.
03:49That's what it sounds like. Sometimes when we think of RICO, we think of mobsters or
03:53other, you know, in a financial setting. But it looks like here they're using the statute
03:58as a way to look at this enterprise being one of trafficking, human trafficking.
04:04And I know it's still early in the legal proceedings here, but what is the punishment that Sean
04:09Diddy Combs faces for these charges if he were to be convicted?
04:14Sure. The most serious punishment that exposes him to life is using sexual assault or violence
04:21or force on someone who's being trafficked. And so ultimately, these charges could result
04:27in him facing a life sentence. A life sentence in prison.
04:31Wow. Well, that's correct. Yeah. I mean, the course
04:34of conduct over a decade with multiple victims and the level and scale of violence used to
04:40commit these crimes is under the under the code allows that.
04:46Now there was some reporting that emerged today from TMZ that the feds intended to arrest
04:51Combs today on Tuesday, but instead moved up the arrest by a day to yesterday based
04:57on some new information. What does that suggest to you as an attorney with experience and
05:04criminal defense? Does this signal that he was perhaps going to escape?
05:08Well, that's certainly the question I think that folks would ask. And having looked at
05:13the detention letter that justice sent over to the court asking for him to be detained,
05:19it certainly appears that there are elements of flight risk that are at issue here. We
05:24also see that they allege that he may be dissuading witnesses and obstructing the case. And so
05:31whenever that's happening, the government's going to want to curtail that and make sure
05:35that this person can't harm their case any further than they may have already done.
05:41You say obstruct. So could there be additional charges for obstruction of justice?
05:46Well, it appears that there can be. And what they've alleged in the detention letter is
05:52that Combs has already contacted witnesses and victims and made an effort to dissuade
05:57them from testifying, providing them with false narratives. So if they can prove that
06:03and there's evidence to support that, potentially additional charges could be filed.
06:08So the arrest was yesterday. The unsealing of the charges was today. What happens next?
06:13Will there be a trial? And if so, when?
06:16Well, first he will face the court and the question about whether or not he'll be detained
06:21will be at issue. So that's where that memo came into play. Will he be in custody while
06:25this case is pending or will the court allow him to remain out of custody with conditions?
06:31And then there's a large process of exchanging evidence and looking at the evidence that the
06:35court has. The defense's job is to evaluate all of that, to interview witnesses and put together
06:40its defense, whatever that might be in this case. Potentially a case like this could involve
06:45a settlement or a trial. It really depends on what the government's willing to offer
06:50and really the strength of their case, which at this point, it seems strong. But also,
06:59really, quite frankly, the message will be to the community and the world about this kind of
07:04conduct. Will he be an example for others? Based on what we've seen so far, what's your
07:11tea leave reading? Is the government going to make an example of him and really come down hard,
07:18push for a trial versus a settlement? Well, I just don't see how he avoids a trial when he's
07:25facing so much time. If they were to offer him something other than a life sentence potentially,
07:31but what he's looking at in the conduct is so egregious and it's so serious that he may be
07:39forced to go to trial. At the same time, it's hard for me to say. We haven't seen all of the
07:44evidence yet. What's been offered is not necessarily proven, but what the government
07:50thinks that it will be able to prove. Now, in the attorney's press conference today,
07:57there was a phrase used a number of times, at least three by my count,
08:01freak off. And that is not something that feels like a traditional legal term.
08:06Have you heard it before? Or is that unique to this case? Well, that's definitely not a legal
08:12term. So my reading of the references to the freak off was something that Combs created. It
08:20was some kind of sexual event where women who were coerced or sex trafficked were forced to engage in
08:27sexual conduct with male sex workers, sometimes being drugged, sometimes under the threat of
08:34violence. And violence and drugs were used to coerce people to stay. If they weren't participating
08:41in those acts, they were threatened. And not just through threat or violence, but really ruining
08:47their entire potential career if they were somebody who thought that they could be in the
08:52music industry. And we have to put it in a context where Sean Combs was an incredibly powerful and
08:57influential professional in the music industry. And so people felt compelled to participate in
09:04whatever he wanted so that they could have a shot. So quite frankly, it seems like the freak off,
09:11certainly nothing I've ever heard in the law, something that he constructed and coined the term,
09:16and now that's being repeated everywhere. That's interesting. So what we have here are
09:22allegations spanning a number of years. And as you correctly summarized at the top of this
09:27conversation, the building of the case took time. So as you look forward, Lauren, how long could
09:33this stretch out? Are we going to see this in the headlines and these legal proceedings take
09:41weeks, months, years? Or what's the typical timeline in a case like this?
09:45Well, on average, we see that federal cases sentencing occurs about two years after an
09:51indictment is brought. So I would say you're going to see periods where you hear absolutely nothing,
09:57and then there'll be some movement because there will be a court proceeding or some type of
10:00evidentiary hearing. Eventually, we'll learn about whether there's a trial. When there is a trial,
10:05I'm sure that that will be top of the news. I was going to say, if there is a trial,
10:10Sean Diddy Combs has a number of celebrity associates, and could any of those celebrity
10:16associates be compelled to testify? Well, absolutely. So it does seem like
10:22there was an involvement of many music industry professionals, rappers, and artists, and who may
10:28be victims in the case, who may be witnesses in the case, or other collateral witnesses who may
10:33be brought in to support the government's case. We can also see that potentially Combs could bring
10:39in defense witnesses. That was his world. It was a world of celebrities and rappers and
10:45R&B artists. And so those are the people who are going to set the stage and the context
10:48for everything that occurred. As you zoom out, does this indictment,
10:53does this arrest say anything to you about where we are in this moment in time, either in what is
10:59often called a post-MeToo society or where we are in this political cycle? Are there societal or
11:05cultural implications that you're taking from this moment?
11:09I think the cultural implications are huge. I think the level and scale of violence against
11:15women that is alleged in this case is really extraordinary. We don't see that in the law,
11:20and I think that is really important to reflect on at this time. If New York hadn't opened up
11:26that year of bringing cases where they may have been outside statute of limitations in a civil
11:32context to allow victims to tell their stories and to seek redress for their harms, I don't think
11:40we'd be at this place today. And so we are seeing legislatures make those types of moves because
11:45we are all recognizing that many of those stories have gone untold. As more and more victims come
11:51forward and tell those stories, I think we will see really a reformation of the law that listens
11:57to women, that takes their concerns and their grievances seriously, and seeks justice for those
12:03who are harmed. I'm curious because we've been talking about, obviously, it's the U.S. attorney
12:09for the Southern District of New York that unsealed the charges today. Could we see Sean
12:13Diddy Combs indicted in other jurisdictions, like in California, for instance? Well, I mean, he did
12:22have a residence or does have a residence in California. I understand he also has one
12:27in Florida. So it is possible that he could face other charges in other jurisdictions. Whether the
12:33government decides to do that strategically or if those cases also could be brought in New York
12:38is to be seen. But I think it's entirely possible if that conduct was occurring in other states.
12:45We've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything else that is important to understand
12:49about the case against Sean Diddy Combs at this point in time, based on what we know?
12:54Well, I think we have a person who was absolutely at the top of their game at one point in time,
13:00was really such an influential and important sort of Weinstein-esque figure in the music industry.
13:08And to see that we look back and over the last 15 years see that potentially he used such extreme
13:15force and violence against women and those in his world around him is really alarming and just
13:20calls for a moment of reflection on how celebrity can lead to this kind of thing.
13:26Lauren Johnson Norris, thank you so much for joining us. We so appreciate your insight here.
13:31Glad to be here. Thanks so much.