Scotsman political editor Alistair Grant hosts a special episode of The Steamie with special Guest, former SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford
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00:00Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the STEAMie, the Scotsman's Politics podcast,
00:05today coming to you in video and audio formats. It's 10 years since the 2014 independence
00:11referendum, that electrifying campaign that gripped the nation and transformed Scottish
00:15politics. But what is the legacy of that time and how should we think about what has happened
00:20in the decade since? I'm Alistair Grant, the Scotsman's Political Editor, and to ponder
00:24these questions and more, I'm joined today by Alexander Brown, the Scotsman's Westminster
00:29Correspondent, David Ball, the Scotsman's Deputy Political Editor, and by a very special
00:33guest, Ian Blackford, who was the SNP's Westminster leader from 2017 until the end of 2022, and
00:40who was the MP for Ross, Skye and Lochaber from 2015 until standing down this year. Ian,
00:47thank you very much for joining us.
00:49My pleasure, sir. I think a privilege to be with you on what is a momentous occasion,
00:53the 10-year anniversary of the referendum.
00:55Yeah, indeed. I mean, just to kick off, I suppose, just with a kind of basic question,
01:00how do you look back on that referendum 10 years on? Is it with a sense of regret or
01:05a sense of pride? And if you could also just explain, just for the benefit of listeners,
01:09what your involvement in the referendum was. It was obviously slightly before you became
01:13an elected politician. To what extent were you involved in the campaign?
01:16Yeah, I was heavily involved in the campaign, actually. I had a long career in the city
01:20and I had my own consultancy business that I ran post that. And once the referendum campaign
01:27had got started, I more or less wound down most of my business activities so I could
01:31take part in the campaign. And I was lucky enough to be a central part of the campaign
01:36and Skye and Razzie and Lochalsh, the local campaign that we had there, with a couple
01:40of other people. So I was more or less full time for the last 12, 18 months of it. And
01:46of course, I did my first year of media duties across Scotland and public meetings across
01:51Scotland as well. Actually, we had 56 public meetings around Skye, Razzie and Lochalsh
01:57over the period. We tried to go to every community. And I think, interestingly, Alastair, these
02:02meetings were badged as meetings for the undecided. It was an open and honest debate with people
02:07of all opinions and none really. And it was an engaging process. And actually, one of
02:13the things that we did in Skye, we had a shop in the main street in Portree, for those
02:20that know it, in Wentworth Street. What I really recall, particularly about the last
02:24few weeks, with the number of young people that were coming in from the Portree High
02:28School, and it didn't matter if they were yes supporters or no supporters, but there
02:32was a real thirst for knowledge from young people, a real desire for people to engage
02:36in that debate about what Scotland's future should be. And I think, on balance, we should
02:41be proud of the nature of the debate that took place and that discussion that involved
02:46people really in communities, large and small, up and down Scotland. And there was that sense
02:51of hope. Of course, I deeply regret that we didn't win in 2014. But if we remember the
02:57vow, the Smith Commission, the more powers that were supposed to be coming, I think there
03:02was a desire that all of us wanted to improve Scotland for the better. So there's a big
03:09difference from the atmosphere, the climate that existed then, and what is today, a period
03:14where, you know, we've had austerity for really right through from the last 10 years, obviously
03:19the COVID crisis, the war in Ukraine, everything that we're facing today, that hope, that optimism,
03:26that sense of belief there's a better future, has somewhat eroded over the course of the
03:31last decade.
03:32And how do you think the Scottish public look back on it? Do you think there's two very
03:37different stories going on here from those who voted no, those who were no campaigners
03:41and those who were yes campaigners? I don't know if you saw the comments by Blair MacDougall,
03:46the former boss of Better Together recently, where he was talking about getting spat at
03:50when he was out with his three year old daughter shortly after the referendum. Do you think
03:55there's a real difference between how people look back on and view that time depending
04:00on their constitutional stance?
04:03Well, I think it's important that in our politics that there ought to be respectful debate. It's
04:08not about people on my side being right and people on the other side being wrong. You
04:14know, we need to be able to learn from the experiences of each other and think about
04:17how we create that better country. And I mean, if we'd won that referendum, and if Scotland
04:22does become independent in the future, we always have to think about those that are
04:25on the other side, Alistair, because we have to take them with us. It's their country,
04:31just as much as it is ours. And I deeply regret, you know, the things I've talked about
04:35about COVID. Obviously, we've had the Trump presidency in the States, our politics have
04:39become pretty vengeful, pretty nasty. We're all aware of, of course, what happens on X,
04:47the abuse that people get in public life, the abuse that journalists get. We're not
04:52in a great place. I don't think that's about the referendum or the debate about Scotland's
04:57future, because it's something that we see replicated, certainly right across the Western
05:01world. But we've got an opportunity, we should seize the opportunity as we reflect on the
05:0610 year anniversary to think about how we raise the level of debate in Scotland. If
05:11you think about the challenges that our public finances face today, think about the statement
05:16from the Scottish Government about the budget and the cuts that are to take place. We really
05:21need to think about how do we drive investment into our economy? How do we improve productivity?
05:27How do we make sure that we take advantage of that transition towards a green economy
05:31to create jobs, to create a better life for people? And to a large extent, right across
05:35our political discourse, that kind of debate is sadly lacking.
05:40And obviously, in the Yes campaign didn't come out on top in 2014. But looking back,
05:48I don't know if it's any easier. But was there a moment where you kind of felt that it got
05:52away from the Yes campaign? Was there a moment you can pinpoint where you thought this was
05:56lost? Or a lot of people have said that it was basically watching the results come in
06:00was when it was first dawned on people that maybe it was slipping away? Or in hindsight,
06:05is there a moment for you that you could see it coming out of your grasp?
06:10Yes, for me, definitely. The last few days, David, and I had spent the last weekend down
06:16in Glasgow on media duties. And of course, if you think about the polls that we had 10
06:23days out from the referendum, the Sunday Times poll, for example, we don't know the polling
06:28of better together, the Yes polling, the UK government's polling, Scottish government
06:32polling, at a certain point, they had all showed the Yes campaign ahead. And I think
06:38it's fair to say that there was a degree of panic that took place with the UK government
06:43and those on that no side. And I think over the course of the last 10 days of the campaign,
06:48we faced an absolute tsunami. And I suspect that we had very little left in the tank at that point.
06:54I mean, one of the things I there's two things that actually stick in my mind. One was the
06:59Robert Peston on the BBC reporting one evening, that the Royal Bank of Scotland were going to
07:05move their headquarters from Scotland to London. Now, that story was false, because
07:09quite legitimately, the board of the Royal Bank of Scotland had had a board meeting,
07:14and they discussed whether or not they would move their registered office, quite a pertinent
07:19thing for them to do, not something that would have caused me any concern. But the problem was
07:23on the BBC that night, the headline was RBS pulling out of Scotland. And that's what led the
07:29news stories overnight, the announcement, the announcement to the Stock Exchange from
07:34RBS the following morning, I wouldn't take any issue with, but the damage was done.
07:39We had ridiculous fears of higher food prices in Scotland, for example. And actually, on the last
07:45weekend, I remember Kevin Pringle phoning to me, phoning me and asking where I was. I said,
07:50look, I'm in Glasgow, because I'm doing media. Because the story on the Friday night going into
07:54Saturday was a story from Deutsche Bank, that banks would pull out of Scotland post-independence.
08:01Now, the imagery of all of that, because when I worked in the city, I was actually
08:06head of Deutsche Bank's equities business in Edinburgh, nothing to do with me leaving the
08:11organisation, but post me leaving, Deutsche Bank pulled out of Scotland. So the irony,
08:15that a bank that had pulled out of Scotland under the union was then saying that banks were going to
08:20pull out of Scotland was utterly fanciful. But the damage that was done by these things,
08:25and I really sense, particularly around that last weekend, that this was slipping away from us. And
08:30I remember going back to Sky and talking to our local chairman, Arthur Cormack, the only person
08:35I've actually spoke to, took him aside and said, look, Arthur, we haven't done this, we've not,
08:40we've not won. So I, I really knew going into the last week of the
08:45the referendum campaign that it felt to me that this had slipped away from us.
08:52And the Yes campaign obviously was able to narrow the polls during the campaign from
08:56the starting point. A lot of people thought that it could happen. Was there a moment,
09:01why do you think that momentum happened? What was the sort of the biggest achievement of that
09:05Yes campaign in appealing to people? Was it presenting a quite a positive sort of vision
09:10for people? Or was there a moment that maybe you capitalised on something that the No campaign was,
09:16was blundering over? Or is there something you can put your finger on as that's why people
09:22came to us in numbers? Yeah, I think it was the optimism about what Scotland could achieve that,
09:27that phrase, if you like, Scotland's future in Scotland's hands, that we could build the country
09:31that we all wanted. So there was that kind of imagination, there was that hope that came
09:37with all of that. I think these were quite appealing things. I mean, I suppose what we
09:41had to do, and the reason that I believe that we came up short is that we had to win
09:47the hearts and the minds. And when hindsight's a wonderful thing, and I'm certainly not being
09:51critical of those in the campaign, but we really needed to do more to explain to people about how
09:56we're going to drive economic success in Scotland. I think even arguably, that's more important today
10:01than it was 10 years ago, because I can't help feeling that we have got an enormous opportunity
10:07to grow the economy in Scotland. And I had a paper last year that Alistair knows about
10:14mapping Scotland's industrial future. And there's a very telling paragraph in that which quotes from
10:19a book by a chap called Anderson called Scotland's populations. And it shows that in every decade
10:24since 1850, that Scotland's relative population in the UK has declined. And I would argue,
10:30to a large extent, that's been about economic opportunity. And it's really about us being able
10:35to explain to people how we can make a fundamental difference to people's lives in Scotland. I get
10:40the point that many people then were scared, were apprehensive. And I remember actually,
10:45quite late on in the campaign, being in a jewellery shop in Edinburgh, in Princes Street,
10:50I was getting a new battery in my watch. And the young woman that served me said to me that she
10:55wanted to vote for independence. But she was getting married, she was buying a house. And she
11:01was fearful as to what would happen. And I don't think we did enough to speak to people, perhaps,
11:07in particular people that were aspirational, to put their concerns to bed, that yes, we could
11:13deliver that more prosperous society. I'd be interested to know how you think the SNP and
11:20the Yes movement has handled the years after the referendum, because obviously, there was this
11:25initial huge surge of support for the SNP and for the Yes movement. And that hasn't necessarily
11:31translated, unless I'm mistaken, into independence. Do you think that there were missed opportunities,
11:37or maybe the party could have been a bit bolder or done something differently that could have really
11:40seized on that momentum? I think largely, Alex, it's because we have, we've been stuck talking
11:47about process, we haven't really talked about how we, how we create that new Scotland, how we create
11:53that better Scotland, you know, to come back to the point that was made about Blair McDougal,
11:57one of the things that we all have to do, whether you're on the Yes side or the No side,
12:01that we've got to have that honest debate with people as to where we are, we've got to do that
12:05across that division, if you like, to try and see if we can bring people back together. Look,
12:11for me at the moment, I think we're at a crucial point. You think about the opportunities that
12:16there are in green energy, and you will know about the report I did a couple of years ago,
12:20the skilling report, about the opportunities to increase Scotland's green energy output fivefold.
12:26But it's not just about the opportunity to increase green energy output, it has to be about
12:30how you capture the supply chain, how you deliver the value, how you deliver the jobs and the
12:35investment. And to put that in the context of a UK economy that's really been stuck in this lowly,
12:41and really since the financial crisis, but to point out to people where the opportunities are,
12:45not just about where the opportunities are, but to make them happen. And I suppose if you think
12:50about, you know, you think about that massive increase in energy that we're talking about,
12:55way more, several times the amount of energy that Scotland needs. And the whole purpose behind that
13:01is on the one hand to deliver cheaper, greener energy to people, so dealing with the cost of
13:06living crisis on the one hand, but secondly, to create a competitive advantage for the industry.
13:11So, you know, show what you can do now. And let's make sure, for example, that we get not just the
13:16investment in ScotWind, but we get the investment in Tidal, we get the investment in pump storage,
13:22but we also get the production that goes with that as well. And really be able to demonstrate
13:27to people graphically, that there's more you can do to turn people's lives around,
13:32deliver the jobs, deliver the tax receipts, and deliver the investment that we need in our
13:37public services as a result of all of that. And quite simply, we haven't had that debate over the
13:42course of the last few years. I mean, obviously, the SNP lost quite a few seats in the Westminster
13:49election. I'd be interested in where you think the party stands now, and the Yes movement as a
13:54whole. And going to what you said there, do you think that the issue, and maybe it could be linked
13:58to that, is the SNP hasn't focused enough on, is its communications a problem, and it's not been
14:03having those debates? Or is it more, the argument that's being made is, we can't do this because of
14:09Westminster, rather than we could do this because of ourselves? You know, I would say respectfully
14:15to colleagues, don't turn around and say, we can't do this because of Westminster. I think
14:19you've actually got to show how you can show leadership in government today, and how you use
14:23that as a link to how you could do so much better, the things I was talking about, about the
14:28investment in green energy, and so on. But I think if you take the starting point of the Westminster
14:35election, and again, let's be honest about the SNP losing 520,000 votes, it's a statement of
14:42leaving obvious, it's a substantial number, and there are many reasons as to why people went away
14:46from the SNP. But I think we have to do two things if we're to win in 26. It's I believe we can,
14:51we've got to demonstrate that we can deliver on the people's priorities. And so, you know,
14:57if I had to pick three that are on the important, that's health, education and housing, you've got
15:02to show that you can get waiting times down, for example, and have a plan to do that. But you also
15:07have to be able to show that you have an economic plan to make people's lives better in Scotland,
15:13Scotland does assume the powers of independence, but show what you can you can do today. I mean,
15:18one of the things I've argued for is to make sure we have a proper industrial council.
15:23I mean, I think there is a better relationship between the two governments. And I think we may
15:27see a step up of investment in green energy. That's to be wholly welcomed. But you can,
15:32you're only going to get people to vote for independence if you demonstrate that you're
15:35worthy of the trust. And I think in many respects, the Westminster election this year has been a
15:40wake up call for the SNP. So respond to that, take your own responsibilities. Yes, of course,
15:46it's a tight budgetary situation that we're that we're living in. But show people that you're on
15:51their side, and show people that they should stick with you in 2026. And use that as a launchpad
15:58for a government to build and to be able to at the time for the people are demanding it,
16:03that you have that right to have a say on Scotland's future. But you do it with a
16:07prospectus that demonstrates how we can build that dynamic, green, successful economy.
16:15John Swinney is expected to the First Minister to say something to mark another 10 year anniversary
16:20of independence. And what would you like him, his message to be to activists? If you were advising
16:26him, what kind of tone do you think he should strike? What do you think he should say to people
16:30around this anniversary? I mean, we're so used to in recent years, you know, this constant kind
16:34of narrative that independence is just around the corner, you know, one last push. Do you think
16:39that's no, that strategy is now gone? I think what the SNP, what the wider Yes movement has to do,
16:45Alistair, is to build support for independence. And it has to be about people believing that
16:51their economic interests are best served with Scotland becoming an independent country. I mean,
16:56you mean, in a sense, I think you've also got to point out what is the alternative. And we've
17:00had the new Labour government, we've had Keir Starmer and Rachel Rees telling us that
17:04things are going to get tougher in the short term. It doesn't have to be so there is an
17:09alternative to that you only have to look across the sea to Ireland to see an economy which has
17:14done extremely well over the course of the last few decades, a government that's actually
17:18increasing the winter fuel payment to its citizens to 1000 euros. So you can contrast
17:23what other countries are able to do. In the midst of this crisis, don't sugarcoat things don't
17:29overpromise and under deliver, but point out that through green energy, we've got a massive
17:34opportunity I would you know, I would link this back to the oil campaign, something that was well
17:39covered by the Scotsman back in the 1970s. Those of us of a certain age will remember the phrase,
17:44it's Scotland's oil. The Northeast did well out of all of this. I mean, the UK economically did
17:50well. But where is the legacy for Scotland out of all of that? Where is the oil fund? Where is that
17:55transition towards green energy? We cannot make the mistake of the past and do exactly the same
18:00again, we need to make sure that we get the investment in the supply chain. There is no point
18:05as having the production of green energy, but not having the wider benefits and can look to the
18:10investment that Sumitomo are making in the Highlands and the cable manufacturing facility,
18:14but we need so much more. We need to see the building of turbines in Scotland, for example,
18:21we need to see the delivery of the blades and so much more. So there's an economic opportunity.
18:28And we as a government, I've got to make sure that that happens. And you demonstrate that you
18:33can do these things. And I think people will come with you, if you're able to do that. But you have
18:37to deal with, quite frankly, Alistair, what are the legitimate concerns that people that people
18:43would have, there's a big job for us to do over the course of the next 18 months, you have to show
18:47that you're listening to people. I think John has the skill set to be able to do that. You've got to
18:52have a bit of humility. I mean, I've talked about the importance of the two governments working
18:57together. I know that that is happening to show that we're behaving in a responsible manner,
19:04working with those in government in Westminster, but then saying to people, look, if you come with
19:09us, this is a vision of the type of society that we want. You think about the contribution that we
19:14can make, not just here, but globally through that massive increase in our green energy production to
19:20be good citizens of the world, the values that we have of delivering that stronger economy,
19:26but that stronger economy for the purpose. And that purpose is delivering a fairer society.
19:32I've referenced back to the 1970s. And I'm going to make one other reference to the 1970s as well,
19:36because in the 70s, there was a paper written by Sir David Player, who was the,
19:42if I remember rightly, the chief executive, maybe the chairman of the
19:46Scottish Health Education Group. And the paper was called Born to Fail.
19:50Many of the things that were in that paper in the 1970s are pertinent today.
19:55The issues of making sure that we close the attainment gap, that we drive people out of poverty.
19:59But we do that by creating the wealth in Scotland and that wealth for the purpose of making sure
20:03that we eradicate poverty. I understand what you're saying about that you need to kind of make
20:11independence appeal to more people and build that sort of support. But do you think the Yes movement
20:16still needs a new strategy for delivering it? You must have lost count of the amount of times you
20:21stood up in the Commons and asked for a second referendum. Do you think without that, some people
20:25maybe put off that it isn't a sort of a realistic prospect?
20:31You know, I think, David, when I did that, I was doing that on the basis of the election result
20:35in the Scottish Parliament in 2021. And the fact that there was an independence majority in that
20:40Parliament. And I think it's perfectly obvious to see that Westminster should have respected
20:45democracy and should respect the right of the people of Scotland to choose. It's legitimate,
20:50absolutely to do that. And, you know, there is a broader question around all of that is that
20:55if Westminster isn't going to recognise that Yes majority in the Scottish Parliament,
21:00what is the mechanism for Scotland to leave the United Kingdom? In the end, democracy must prevail.
21:06So, of course, you do that and we'll work on waiting to see what the SNP will see as it goes
21:10into the election of 2026. But the thing for me, and, you know, I've been consistent about this
21:16over a long period of time, the thing that's going to move the needle is by building the case as to
21:22why Scotland should be an independent country. And I believe that if we can win the hearts and
21:26minds on that, that we won't just be talking about support for independence somewhere between 45 and
21:31over 50 percent, but something much more material, because the majority of people in Scotland would
21:36recognise it's in their economic interest for Scotland to become an independent country.
21:43We've just seen Keir Starmer take over the Labour Party and take it from, you know, the absolute
21:50lows of the Corbyn era and where it was in terms of seats to the overwhelming dominant force in
21:56British politics. Do you think the SNP can do something similar? Can it rebuild at that scale?
22:01And with that in mind, is there a time frame that you think for maybe a second referendum? Do you
22:06think, you know, it's going to take us this long to fix and get back to where we'd like to be,
22:10or, and I appreciate it's like asking how long is a piece of string, or do you not really have a
22:14time frame in mind? Do you just think it, you know, it'll be ready when it's ready?
22:18Well, I think there's two aspects to that, Alex, and, you know, I fully accept that we were given a
22:23very harsh lesson by the electorate this year and the 520,000 votes that we lost.
22:29But of course, we're still at 30 percent of the electorate voting for us in that election. I'm
22:35not happy with that. Obviously, we've won every election over the course of the last few years,
22:39so we have to demonstrate that there's enough in our offering that people will come back and
22:43support us in 2026, want to put us back into government again. And actually, if we can't
22:50achieve that, then the roadmap becomes ever more difficult. But I suppose there's two things. One,
22:56as I mentioned, demonstrate that you can deliver on the people's priorities that we talked about,
23:02health, education and housing. But then secondly, build that economic case for independence.
23:07So you really need to do it in two stages. One, win the right to govern,
23:12make sure that you're actually doing that on the basis of putting out what is the narrative,
23:16what is the vision for Scotland to become an independent country, and then crucially build
23:21that public support. Because in the end, and it really addresses this issue of when and how,
23:28it will happen when the people of Scotland are demonstrating in large enough numbers
23:32that they want that to happen, that that is the settled will of the people of Scotland.
23:37In the end, whether you're talking about Keir Starmer or anybody else in Westminster,
23:40they cannot continue to say no to what is the legitimate demands of the people of Scotland
23:46when that happens. And that's why I'm deliberately not putting a time on that,
23:49because it's the people that will ultimately determine that.
23:54When you're making this argument for a bigger, wider strategy and a reset of how you approach
24:01it, obviously, it's a slightly cheeky question. It's one that your successor has struggled to
24:05answer. Would you want to be making those arguments from the hollyrood benches?
24:11I'm happy to. I've retired as a parliamentarian. Of course, I engage with colleagues. I'm looking
24:22forward to playing a part in business over the course of the coming period as well. What happens
24:27to me over the longer term, I don't know, Alexander, but I'm very keen to help out in
24:32building that economic case in particular, and that we do demonstrate that we've got that very
24:39clear vision. And we're talking about what is a very different Scotland, a dynamic Scotland.
24:44One of the things I would say to you, these things don't happen by themselves.
24:47The leading expert in small countries around the world is a chap called David Skilling.
24:51And it is the case, whether you look at small countries in Europe, America,
24:55Asia, that small countries tend to outperform large countries, but it doesn't happen by itself.
25:00You have to be able to make sure you create your unique selling point to do that. And you only do
25:05that if you have the dynamism. And the thing that I've said about the opportunity from green energy
25:10is massive. And if you think about that ability to deliver affordable green energy, which we can,
25:15think about what that means for people's bills. And by the way, I want to make sure that
25:19communities benefit from that, both in terms of where green energy is being produced,
25:23but also transmission as well. But the opportunity to create a green industrial strategy.
25:29We talk a lot about AI. You think about the desire that is for power to drive AI. You think about
25:34data centres, very energy intensive. There's enough a lot that we can do to make sure that
25:40we are in the right place to benefit from the growth industries of the future. But you have
25:45to have a strategy and you have to demonstrate that you can do that. Secondly, I would add alongside
25:50that is the unbelievable academic excellence that we have right across Scotland, right across our
25:56academic sector and the importance of start-ups and spin-outs from these universities. You think
26:02about the disruptors of the past generation and so many of them have come out to the stage. You
26:08think of Microsoft, you think of Google, you can go through all of them. To a large extent,
26:13they have all come out of the academic sector. We need to make sure that we empower our academic
26:18sector, that we're at the forefront of new technology and that we are delivering these
26:22jobs for the future. And we've got that dynamic economy where, if you want, we're redelivering on
26:28what was the Scottish enlightenment of the past.
26:33Staying on Holyrood, obviously if you're not committing or especially interested at this
26:38moment, there is obviously going to be quite a bum fight. A lot of your former colleagues
26:42will be looking at that and thinking that's a way back in. Is there anyone who lost their seat from
26:47Westminster who were your former colleagues who you think, you know what, they've still got a lot
26:51of the tank. I think they could really offer something to Holyrood. Or if you're feeling
26:54particularly fun, anyone you don't think this should go, anyone you think should absolutely
26:57stay away from Holyrood and they're not good enough. I don't expect you to answer that bit.
27:03You're a bad man. You know, I would say I think we're having some extremely talented colleagues
27:10that are no longer at Westminster. And I think if the SNP was thinking things through,
27:16then we need to have that conversation about what parliamentarians are no longer at Westminster that
27:21could strengthen the parliamentary team of the of the SNP at Holyrood and make sure that we've
27:26got that team SNP, team Scotland that can really project the vision and the image of the society
27:32that we want. And I think there's a number of colleagues that fit these characteristics.
27:38And I'm not going to name them Alex before you ask me to do so.
27:43Just to finish off, just two quick questions. And notwithstanding what you said to Alex,
27:49do you think Scotland will be independent within the next decade?
27:53Alistair, I don't know when Scotland will become an independent country. I mean,
27:56we've talked about 2014 and the sadness of that result. I mean, gosh, I can even remember the
28:02sadness of 1979 when the referendum result came through then because we weren't getting the
28:08Scottish Parliament at that point, even though there was a yes majority. I definitely want
28:13Scotland to become an independent country. I want the country to be the best country it can be.
28:17It's up to all of us on our side to inspire people. Can it be done within 10 years? It can be.
28:24But let's, you know, let's listen to what people are saying. Let's recognise that there is that
28:30political discourse which is not the best in the world. And let's make sure that we engage
28:34with people properly, that we give people the hope that they had in 2014. And it goes way beyond the
28:40the 45% that voted for us in 2014.
28:48I just wanted to ask as well, Stephen Flynn recently speaking to a Scottish journalist
28:52down in Westminster was talking about this idea of a kind of cross-party, cross-border summit,
28:57a kind of coming together of politicians to try and thrash out the circumstances under which a
29:02second referendum could take place. There's obviously been a lot of talk about trying to
29:06formalise this. I know no one wants to make comparisons with Northern Ireland but under the
29:10Good Friday Agreement there's obviously a kind of process there to have another, to have a border
29:14poll. Do you think there's merit in that argument? Is that something that you would support as well?
29:20Well I think it's something that could happen in the Scottish Parliament. I think it's fair to say
29:23that I think our parties need to come together in a more collegiate way. And of course it is that
29:29broader question about Westminster recognising the rights of Scotland to, or the people of Scotland,
29:35to have their say. You could debate the mechanism for that.
29:38But yes, to allow that to happen I think would be a practical thing to do.
29:45Well Ian, thank you very much for joining us today. It was great to hear your thoughts
29:49marking 10 years since the independence referendum. And yeah, thanks very much for your time.
29:54My pleasure, thank you.