The Steamie Alex Salmond Special

The Scotsman

Alex Salmond: death of a political titan  The Scotsman's Alistair Grant, David Bol and Calum Ross discuss the legacy of Alex Salmond following his death at the age of 69, and share some of their own memories.

Transcript

00:00Hello and welcome to The Steamy, the Scotsman's politics podcast. Alex Salmond, the former

00:05First Minister of Scotland who led the SNP to extraordinary electoral success, has died

00:10at the age of 69. Mr Salmond suffered a suspected heart attack on Saturday afternoon while attending

00:17a conference in North Macedonia, shocking the political world. Tributes have poured

00:21in from across the political spectrum for a man who changed the face of modern Scotland.

00:26He led the SNP in the 1990s and again between 2004 and 2014, during which time he took the

00:33party into government for the first time and secured the historic independence referendum

00:38that reshaped Scottish politics. But recent years have cast a shadow over his legacy as

00:43he faced sexual harassment allegations which led to a spectacular falling out with his

00:48successor and protege, Nicola Sturgeon. He was cleared of all criminal charges following

00:53a trial at the High Court in Edinburgh in 2020, but his lawyers admission that some

00:57of his behaviour was inappropriate and that he could have been a better man left a stain

01:01on his reputation. He was locked in a legal battle with the Scottish government he formerly

01:06led, winning more than £500,000 in court after it was found an investigation into harassment

01:10complaints against him was tainted by apparent bias. And last year Mr Salmond announced he

01:16would be taking further action, warning that a day of reckoning for the Scottish government

01:20was coming. It remains to be seen how that plays out. More recently he had his sights

01:25on returning to Holyrood in 2026 at the next Holyrood election as an MSP for his pro-independence

01:31Alaba party. He was, it's fair to say, an extraordinary politician and a complicated

01:37man. I'm Alistair Grant, the Scotsman's Political Editor, and to discuss Alex Salmond's legacy

01:41and some of her own memories, I'm joined by David Ball, the Scotsman's Deputy Political

01:46Editor, and by Callum Ross, who is the Scotsman's Education Correspondent, but in a former life

01:51was a political reporter as well. Callum, you wrote a piece for the Scotsman today's

01:57paper just about some of your encounters with Alex Salmond as a young journalist, or a younger

02:02journalist covering the politics beat. What are some of your memories?

02:08Yeah, that's right, Alistair. I started out in 2006, so just before the SNP came to power

02:17and I moved to Aberdeen towards the end of 2007, just after they'd come to power, obviously.

02:28So my start in journalism coincided with Salmond coming to power. My earliest, I was trying

02:35to think yesterday when I first dealt with him, the one that stands out, and I'm not

02:40sure if it was the first time, but the one that stands out I think was around 2008, maybe

02:46the middle of 2008. I was sent to a building site in Aberdeen. He was going to be cutting

02:53the turf there, so he'd been First Minister for just over a year, I guess, a year and

03:00a half. We all know this, but maybe some people listening, watching, don't know that

03:06when you go to these things, you get a few questions with the First Minister, but it's

03:10always the broadcasters that tend to go first, the TV, and then the radio, and the print

03:15guys like us are always at the end. So I remember being stood there, and I don't know who I

03:20was with, but the BBC were up first or second. I don't know what the journalist asked, but

03:29he asked Salman a question, and Salman did not like it. He reacted badly. He started

03:37questioning the journalist quite aggressively. Then he was wanting to see the journalist's

03:41notes. I'm pretty sure he grabbed the notes out of his hand. Anyway, I'm sure the notes

03:47ended up in his hand. To be honest, it was all quite humiliating, I guess, for the journalist.

03:58Journalists give politicians a hard time, so they can't complain too much when they

04:01get it back, but most other political leaders didn't really behave like that. You interview

04:07Prime Ministers, and the recent ones, anyway, all went to private schools, and they're all

04:12very polite, whereas Salman was a different kettle of fish. I think in the piece I remembered

04:19as well, about a year or two after that, I had asked him a question he didn't like. It

04:23was at a press conference at the Glencraft Furniture Factory in Aberdeen, I think. He

04:30answered it fine, because it was a press conference with loads of people around, but then afterwards

04:34I went to speak to him, and I had a work experience journalist with me. I just remember him turning

04:42to her and saying, work experience? With this guy? It just kind of put me in a place. To

04:49be honest, I didn't really look forward to interviewing Alex Salman. I think probably

04:55because of those early encounters when I was young, I was always slightly scared that he

05:00would publicly tear me to pieces. I think in one piece profile I did of him around the

05:082011 election, I did a big interview with him then, just before it as well. Obviously

05:14just before a historic moment. I remember describing him as Tony Soprano-esque in the

05:20piece, and I think that's probably more to do with how I perceived him than anything

05:24he did or said to me, but there was a bit of an aura around him in that sense.

05:35Yeah, I last interviewed Alex Salman. I've only interviewed him a couple of times as

05:40a journalist. I started covering politics in 2017, a few months after he lost his Gordon

05:44constituency in that year's general election, so I didn't have come across him all that

05:49much initially. But I interviewed him a couple of times. The first time was at a pub in Coatbridge,

05:54I think, just ahead of the 2021 local elections when Alaba were hoping to make gains across

06:01some of the councils in Scotland. And then again, just a few weeks ago at the end of

06:05August, I met him at a jolly restaurant on Elm Row in Edinburgh, which I think was a

06:10favourite haunt of his, to discuss the 10th anniversary of the independence referendum.

06:14And he was very, very punchy. He was great when it came to quotes for journalists. He

06:19just knew exactly what kind of language to use. He knew what made a story for journalists.

06:24He was talking about essentially the SNP's reaction to the recent general election result

06:31being brain dead. He called Angus Robertson, the external affairs secretary, a fud. He talked

06:37about Scotland being worse in every possible way now than it was in 2014. So it was really

06:44kind of punchy stuff. And I remember as I left the restaurant, I kind of turned around and I

06:49could see that he was already engaged in a conversation with one of the tables that was

06:52kind of close to us. So he just had that, I think he just loved speaking to people. He loved that

06:57kind of, to be frank, he loved being in the limelight. He loved that aspect of politics.

07:02He seemed to really enjoy the cut and thrust of political debate. He seemed to just really enjoy

07:07his role, essentially. I mean, do you, when you look back in your interviews with him,

07:11is there a time that you can remember that, I suppose, was your favourite encounter?

07:18Favourite encounter. I mean,

07:20although I kind of said that I was almost a bit kind of intimidated by him in those early days,

07:26I mean, one of the later times was just after he won his election in 2015, Gordon, and he was back

07:36in Westminster. And I bumped into him, I was working down in Westminster at that point, and

07:45I think I had an old school friend with me. And I saw him and I thought, I better go. I didn't

07:52think he would remember me, but I went up and introduced myself. And he did remember me. And

07:59we just started kind of speaking on this escalator. And then we spoke for a few minutes.

08:04He told, I mean, I was pretty sure he probably had a fairly low opinion of me. But he said,

08:11and he probably did, but I remember him saying that he'd heard from a former colleague of mine

08:17that I was quite funny. He always had this way about, he was always kind of

08:22paying a compliment, but at the same time, acting surprised about it. You know, he just had this

08:27way. He never really kind of knew what he was meaning. It was kind of double-edged all the

08:32time. But that's one that stands out. I mean, after that, the times that I was in the same

08:37room as him after that was kind of following the allegations, you know, the Linlithgow restaurant,

08:46where he was kind of called a press conference, a very odd press conference to kind of

08:51deny the allegations, and then at the High Court as well. So it kind of changed a bit after that.

08:56But yeah, that's the kind of more positive one that stands out.

09:01Yeah, I was at that press conference in Linlithgow as well, just in 2018,

09:05just when the allegations first emerged, in which he said that, you know, I think his phrasing was

09:09he'd made many mistakes in his life, but he'd never sexually harassed anyone, and then covered

09:14the trial at the High Court in Edinburgh as well. So it was kind of extraordinary times,

09:20really. But David, I mean, what do you think? He was obviously, well, whatever else you think,

09:25he was the kind of politician that, you know, if he came on the radio in the morning, you would

09:29stop what you were doing, you'd listen to what he had to say. Not all politicians, that can be

09:34said for, to be honest. He had this kind of charisma and magnetism to him that is extremely

09:39rare in politics. People weren't neutral in Alex Salmond. I mean, people call him a divisive figure,

09:45and in some ways, you know, all politicians are divisive. But I think particularly Alex Salmond

09:50kind of provoked strong reactions. You either really, really liked him, or you really didn't.

09:54And he also managed to form really close bonds with political colleagues. He had people that

09:59were extremely loyal to him, who stayed with him over the last couple of years.

10:04But what do you think his legacy will be, both for Scotland and for the independence movement?

10:12Yeah, I mean, his legacy will be huge. I mean, like he said, even if you were on the opposite

10:16side of all the arguments to Alex Salmond, people did respect him and understood the weight he had

10:23and the support he had from a large chunk of the population. He was one of those

10:28Scottish politicians who people across the UK knew who he was and knew he was important. And

10:34like you said, that doesn't happen very often. You could probably say Nicola Sturgeon was not

10:38to the same extent, but on that sort of footing, you'd be hard-pushed to think of anyone else

10:46who would have that kind of that sway. And I mean, his impact on the SNP and the independence

10:51movement was huge. I mean, it dragged it from the time that Callum talked about when they

10:56kind of just managed to get into government into making it this political force. And we look at

11:02the SNP now and the kind of trouble it's in, and it's just because the standards are so high for

11:06the SNP now because of that sort of legacy and what Alex Salmond managed to kind of create and

11:14then bring the SNP up into the forefront of Scottish politics. And even though obviously

11:19the referendum fell flat, he didn't quite get there, it kind of created this modern

11:25movement for Scottish independence. It's much more than the SNP is. There was a big movement

11:29and it still is. Yeah. And Callum, I mean, if you think back to when Alex Salmond was first

11:36elected to Westminster, I think in 1987, he was one of only three SNP MPs. And it just seems like

11:42an astonishing political journey to go from that to where the SNP ended up as a dominant force in

11:47Scottish politics, the real kind of mainstream force, but also where independence as an issue

11:52ended up. You know, when he was first elected to Westminster, it was very much a fringe issue.

11:55It wasn't on the agenda at all, really, in the same way, but it became a huge issue around the

12:01independence referendum and has really dominated Scottish politics since then. I mean, we're still

12:06living in that post-referendum era. We've not passed through it yet, a decade on. Where do

12:11you think Alex Salmond stands when it comes to Scottish politicians of his generation? Do you

12:16think he will come to be seen as the best?

12:23Certainly, yeah. I think the most important, yeah. I mean, kind of taking on your point,

12:30I think you're right. I mean, I remember kind of the end of school, kind of sixth year at school,

12:35studying modern studies, where there was a group of us. This is kind of 1999, 2000, turn of the

12:40century, really interested in politics, debating politics all the time. The Scottish Parliament

12:47had just opened. We never really discussed Scottish independence. It wasn't really a lie.

12:52It wasn't something that was ever a realistic prospect, you know, and now it is for the last

13:02decade and the decades to come. Any kind of younger generation coming through, those kind of cohorts

13:08you know, it's genuinely a realistic option and I think that's down to Alex Salmond, really.

13:16I think the other point to make is, I know he's said recently that he regretted it, but his

13:22resignation after the independence referendum was a really important moment. I think that should

13:29have been the moment where the no-side kind of, you know, put the issue to bed, but it kind of

13:34captured the initiative back from them. All kinds of people who'd, you know, become on side of the

13:39yes side during the campaign, they're suddenly left. I can't really describe it, but they felt

13:44kind of, you know, now Salmond's gone as well. We've been beaten, Salmond's gone. They all started joining

13:49the SNP in their droves and, you know, obviously in the last wee while they've maybe not

13:57been able to get that second referendum and they're kind of looking a bit tired and everything

14:03now, but I think he deserves credit for that moment. I often wonder what would have

14:09happened, what would his legacy be if he'd just bowed out of politics then, if we hadn't, you know,

14:15really heard from him or, you know, maybe we would have heard from him, but he hadn't tried to

14:22seek re-election. I wonder if things might have worked out slightly differently for him and

14:28the SNP if he'd done that. Yeah, I think that's what people always say, is that he was kind of

14:33incapable of bowing out. For him, public life was life, essentially. It was everything that he

14:40existed for, that was what he wanted to do. He just couldn't really take a step back from

14:43frontline politics. It wasn't ever really going to happen for him, but I mean, a question for

14:48both of you, I mean, maybe starting with Callum, I mean, what is it about Alex Salmond that you think

14:54made him so successful as a politician? What do you think he had that other politicians maybe

15:00lacked or that really drew people to him, I guess? I mean, he had a lot of charisma,

15:07didn't he? I mean, I remember thinking, he seemed to be on top of the details. I mean,

15:14I remember thinking kind of in the early stages of the referendum campaign that, you know,

15:21I remember ahead of the TV debates and stuff, there's a kind of feeling that Salmond was going

15:25to wipe the floor with Alistair Darling. He was kind of so formidable. He was this, you know,

15:31senior economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland, you know, he was a proper economist and he'd

15:37been a proper politician, kind of dragged the SNP, you know, from nowhere, like you said,

15:43to government. I mean, those achievements were hugely impressive and yeah, I think that

15:50a lot of politicians these days, they don't have that kind of background, do they,

15:54of being in command of the details and they don't really always give the impression they are. I mean,

16:00you look at the likes of Boris Johnson and the rest of it, I mean, it's just completely different.

16:05I mean, to be fair, Alistair Darling did well in at least one of those debates. I think he

16:11surprised people, so maybe Salmond wasn't quite across the detail and the way he gave the

16:16impression sometimes, but I think that was part of it. What do you think, David?

16:21Yeah, I think the charisma and confidence was something that made him stand out, really,

16:25particularly when he was at Holyrood. I mean, we cover Holyrood sort of in a lot of detail,

16:32and there are not a lot of people who are obviously as sort of charismatic and

16:37as flowing as he was. I guess some of his ambition kind of put him apart. Obviously,

16:42people would have maybe laughed at him when he was starting out and this sort of dream of

16:47independence, which he just never let go of. And also with his policies, I guess he had some very

16:52ambitious policies that are still part of his legacy, such as the free tuition fees for Scottish

16:58kids and the free prescriptions. So he did a lot of ambitious things that cost a lot of money

17:05that if people kind of suggested nowadays would kind of get laughed at a little bit.

17:09But he was driven by it, I guess, and probably that just made him keep head and shoulders above

17:15everyone for some time. It wasn't just a fleeting thing. He's been a dominant force for decades.

17:22Yeah, and it's worth talking about as well. He obviously, as I touched on at the beginning,

17:26had that big falling out with Nicola Sturgeon, with the SNP, went on to set up the pro-independence

17:32Alaba party. And it's fair to say that Alex Salmond was a bit of a reduced figure in recent

17:38years. The Alaba party never really made any kind of electoral breakthrough. It managed to get some

17:43politicians, but they were all from defections from the SNP to the Alaba party. I mean, where

17:51do you think the Alaba party goes now, David? Kenny McCaskill is the acting leader,

17:56obviously former justice secretary under Alex Salmond, and he's saying that it's not going

18:00anywhere. But it feels hard to imagine them getting any kind of breakthrough without Alex

18:05Salmond. He was their driving force. A lot of people thought he may well have managed to get

18:10back to Holyrood in 2026. And if he did, he would have become a big figure in Holyrood. He would

18:16have had a big influence. He's obviously a big character. He would have shaped politics within

18:21Holyrood. But obviously, that's not to be now. Yeah, I mean, that party is kind of nothing

18:28without him, in all honesty. I mean, it was built around him. It was his project. It was his kind of

18:35method of keeping in the political limelight. I mean, after the court case, and obviously,

18:42we had his questionable Russia Today stint that obviously probably didn't help his reputation

18:51either. He was always wanting to get back into the limelight. And he obviously tried at the last

18:56Holyrood election and failed quite badly to get back in, even with his name on the ballot. It just

19:02didn't happen. In 2026, you're right, he had a good chance of actually getting back into Holyrood.

19:07I mean, can you imagine what sort of comeback that would have been if he managed that? It's hard to

19:12see where that party goes without him. I don't really see what the draw is in getting people

19:19back. Especially, I know Albert will continue to fight for independence and say the SNP aren't

19:25doing enough. But the context of it makes that very tricky, especially without Alex Salmond sort

19:30of leading the charge. And I guess Kenny MacAskill, yeah, he'll want to keep the fight

19:36going, as it were, particularly in Alex Salmond's name. But in all honesty, it looks very, very

19:43unlikely that they will kind of amount to anything going forward. What do you think, Calum?

19:51Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's tricky, isn't it? Because there was a time, I think, where

19:57Salmond was so unpopular that there was a suggestion that he was almost holding Alba back.

20:05But yeah, I can't see much of a future for them. I mean, you never know. You never know,

20:13maybe an Ash Regan or someone might be able to kind of start again, create a new kind of

20:23narrative for them. But it's hard to see at the moment.

20:27Yeah, well, we'll have to wait and see. But fair to say that Alex Salmond was an extraordinary

20:33figure, a flawed figure, as we've touched on. I share your experience, Calum, in the sense that

20:39he was always quite intimidating to interview. You could tell exactly what he thought about the

20:44question you just asked by his response and his face. And occasionally, I'd see his number and

20:51he'd phone me up out of the blue, you know, once in a blue moon, and you'd always kind of stop in

20:55your tracks and think like, oh, what's this about? But an extraordinary political figure,

21:00and I think his legacy will be debated in the days and weeks to come. But thank you very much

21:06for listening to this special episode of The Steamy to discuss the life and legacy of Alex Salmond.

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