History, genocide and Israel’s war on Gaza- Mehdi Hasan & Benny Morris - Head to Head
ALLAH IS ONE
Mehdi Hasan & Benny Morris - Head to Head
Mehdi Hasan & Benny Morris - Head to Head
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00:00Israel will fight until we destroy Hamas' military capabilities,
00:05end its rule in Gaza, and bring all our hostages home.
00:10Since Hamas' attack on October 7th,
00:13Israel has been laying waste to the Gaza Strip.
00:16Tens of thousands killed,
00:18and the Israeli government now accused of committing genocide.
00:24But what can the history of the conflict tell us about how we got here?
00:28My guest tonight is the famously provocative Israeli historian, Benny Morris.
00:33His work once documented many of the crimes committed by Israel in 1948,
00:38but his critics say he now justifies those crimes.
00:42I'm Mehdi Hassan, and I'm here in London's legendary free speech society, Conway Hall,
00:47to go head-to-head with Benny Morris.
00:49I'll challenge him on his support for the war on Gaza,
00:52and ask him why he thinks accusations of genocide are absurd.
00:59Tonight, I'll be joined by our panel of experts,
01:02Daniel Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator and president of the US Middle East Project,
01:07Diana Butu, the Palestinian lawyer and former adviser to the PLO,
01:11and Emmanuel Navan, an Israeli lecturer of diplomatic studies at Tel Aviv University.
01:29APPLAUSE
01:34Benny Morris, thank you for joining me on head-to-head.
01:38You are a supporter, a defender of Israel's current war in Gaza,
01:42which began in its current form after the atrocities on October 7th,
01:46and which has since killed more than 38,000 Palestinians, including 15,000 children,
01:51displaced more than a million people, made Gaza uninhabitable per the UN,
01:56and is being investigated as a possible genocide at the International Court of Justice.
02:00A lot of people around the world think it's a genocide.
02:03I happen to think it's a genocide.
02:05But you have called that accusation absurd. Why?
02:09Well, I once investigated a real genocide by Muslim Turks
02:15against the Christian communities of Turkey around the year 1900.
02:19Some two million Christians were killed at the time by Muslim Turks,
02:24and that's what a genocide actually looks like.
02:27What's happening in Gaza is a war.
02:29It's a war in which there are a lot of collateral deaths among Gazans.
02:35The war started, of course, by the Hamas from Gaza in a giant massacre on October 7th,
02:42and the only way to respond to that, and any country would have responded to that,
02:47more or less in the same fashion, I think, was to try and go after the Hamas.
02:52But the Hamas was embedded in the population, as you know,
02:55used the schools, the UNRWA schools, the hospitals as bases,
03:02as places where they stocked their ammunition, their guns themselves,
03:07hid in tunnels underneath these schools, in apartment buildings,
03:11and this all involved collateral damage, which, of course, the Hamas knew
03:15it was going to ignite by killing 1,200 Israelis on the 7th of October.
03:20I myself have problems with the war as it's being waged,
03:24but genocide it definitely isn't.
03:26The aim here is not to kill as many Palestinians...
03:29That's not the definition of genocide.
03:31You wrote a book on genocide. That's not the definition of genocide.
03:34It's one of the definitions. Try and kill...
03:36It's not based on numbers, the definition of genocide.
03:38It's also based on intent and on numbers.
03:40Yes, it's based on the intent to destroy, to kill in whole or in part.
03:43There's no intent here...
03:45That's a book on the country's intent.
03:48I'm not a government spokesman.
03:50You seem to be presenting me as a government spokesman.
03:52How did I present you as a government spokesman?
03:54I asked you for your view on the war. I didn't say anything.
03:57We'll come to the government. I'm just asking about your view right now.
04:00The definition of genocide, you wrote a book on it,
04:02is nothing to do with how many people you kill.
04:04So it's not a numbers game. It's also a numbers game.
04:07The ICC chief prosecutor has asked for arrest warrants,
04:09not just for Hamas leaders, but for the Israeli prime minister
04:12and the defence minister for war crimes and crimes against humanity,
04:15and he says he has mountains of evidence.
04:17We've all seen, with our own eyes,
04:19the Israelis in Gaza commit war crimes on camera,
04:22kill unarmed people who are carrying white flags,
04:24blow up apartment buildings, drop £2,000 bombs on crowded refugee camps.
04:28Can we at least agree, Benny, even if we're going to disagree on genocide,
04:31that Israel has committed numerous war crimes
04:33since the Hamas war crimes on October 7th?
04:36I'm fairly sure there have been war crimes,
04:38but the war itself is not a war crime,
04:41as the Hamas attack on Israel on 7th October was.
04:44It was a war crime from beginning to end.
04:46The aim was to kill as many civilians as possible, which they did,
04:50in accordance with the Hamas charter,
04:52which is to kill basically every Jew you can get hold of in Palestine.
04:57But I didn't ask about the aim.
04:58I asked about the acts that are being committed.
05:00As I said, probably there have been, as in all wars, war crimes.
05:04You accept there have been war crimes? Yes.
05:06So you would support an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu?
05:08I didn't say that. Why?
05:10Firstly, there hasn't been an arrest warrant.
05:12No, there's been a request from the ICC chief prosecutor.
05:14So far, they haven't issued it.
05:16I don't know if you can hold a prime minister responsible
05:19if a sergeant kills several unarmed people intentionally.
05:23You don't think the Israeli Air Force bombing apartment buildings,
05:26refugee camps, mosques, cemeteries, hospitals, schools, universities, libraries...
05:30Firstly, it hasn't bombed, as far as I know, hospitals.
05:33They have attacked...
05:34LAUGHTER
05:36Literally no expert agrees with you on that.
05:40That's not true. What you're saying is not true.
05:42The only hospital which I remember being bombed
05:45was by a rocket fired by the Islamic Jihad by mistake.
05:49That's as far as I remember.
05:51Israel has raided hospitals.
05:53Let me talk.
05:56Israel has raided hospitals with infantry.
05:59Let me ask you this question.
06:00It's found Hamas people in their Hamas headquarters,
06:03inside hospitals, under hospitals.
06:05Actually, we've never seen the headquarters that Benjamin Netanyahu
06:07put a beautiful Bond movie video out for.
06:09We've never actually seen that from underneath Al-Shifa.
06:11It's been several months. We're still waiting for that.
06:13So on the 31st of October, according to Human Rights Watch,
06:15Israeli forces unlawfully attacked a six-storey residential building,
06:18killing 106 civilians, including 54 children, without warning.
06:22Four strikes, completely demolished.
06:24Human Rights Watch found no evidence of a military target in the vicinity,
06:27making the strike unlawful, indiscriminate under the laws of war.
06:30Israeli authorities have provided no justification for the attack.
06:33The Hamas always hides their own casualties.
06:37But the Israelis didn't say that they were hiding in the apartment building.
06:40You said you don't want to be a spokesman for the government.
06:42You're offering a better defense to the government than the government is.
06:45I don't know.
06:48I don't know the particulars of that particular attack.
06:51It could be that there was a war crime committed there.
06:54It could also be that there were hundreds of Hamas fighters in the building.
06:57There wasn't.
06:59It could be.
07:01Have you ever seen footage coming out of the Gaza Strip
07:05which shows a Hamas fighter dead?
07:07Have you ever seen that?
07:09All you see is civilians because they're hiding their casualties.
07:11Benny, I'm not a Palestinian journalist.
07:13I'm a foreign journalist, and guess what?
07:15We're not allowed in by the Israelis.
07:17They are hiding their casualties.
07:19So let me ask you this.
07:21I agree we should allow people in. Do you agree with me?
07:23I agree with you.
07:25Let me tell you something about the Israeli Air Force if we're talking about this.
07:27Each mission of the Israeli Air Force,
07:29and it's probably the most accurate and efficient arm of the Israeli military,
07:34is checked beforehand by a lawyer, etc.,
07:37to see if there is actual evidence of Hamas being in there.
07:43I'm so glad you're pointing this out because it's not a rogue operation.
07:46It goes all the way up.
07:48See, we can indict Netanyahu for these attacks because it's gone up the chain of command.
07:51It's not a rogue sergeant.
07:53It's not a rogue sergeant. We agree.
07:55You say it's not genocide.
07:57Can we at least agree that it's genocidal rhetoric and genocidal intent
08:00from various members of the Israeli government?
08:02Can we agree that the rhetoric from Netanyahu and Herzog and Smotrich,
08:07this is genocidal rhetoric?
08:09Some of the ministers, I'm not sure about Herzog's quotes,
08:12and I'm not sure about what Netanyahu said,
08:14Netanyahu said Amalek, Benny.
08:16You know what Amalek means.
08:18I don't know if that's the same as genocide.
08:20Killing every man, woman, and child.
08:22And the donkeys.
08:24Listen, there's something really absurd about this line of questioning.
08:30If Israel was intent on genocide...
08:33Would you let me talk?
08:35Hold on, can you let him speak?
08:36Would you let me talk?
08:37Can you let him speak? Yes.
08:40Guys, guys, guys!
08:42We are going to have to stop the entire show
08:44and you will all have to go home if you do not have some order.
08:48Benny, please finish your point.
08:50If there was genocidal intent in the war making in Gaza,
08:55there would be not 30,000...
08:57Incidentally, the numbers are all issued by Hamas.
09:00We don't know how true they are.
09:02But if there was genocidal intent by the Israeli government
09:05with the Israeli military machine to commit genocide in Gaza,
09:08there would not be 30,000 or 20,000 Gazans dead,
09:12there would be hundreds of thousands of Gazans dead.
09:14I'm sure...
09:15That is called genocide.
09:18And that's not what's happening in Gaza.
09:20Benny, we've already discussed that's not the definition of genocide.
09:23That's not your definition of genocide.
09:25What's the 1948 Genocide Convention?
09:27There's lots of different... Forget it.
09:29Forget the 1948 Genocide Convention.
09:31There are lots of definitions of genocide.
09:33That's not true, Benny. There's only one.
09:35There's only one, the 1948 Genocide Convention.
09:37That sounds dogmatic, there's only one.
09:39There's only one truth, the Hamas truth.
09:41They sound the same.
09:42Is the 1948 Genocide Convention a Hamas charter?
09:44Is everything Hamas, Benny?
09:46If there's a genocidal side in this battle, it is the Hamas.
09:50OK, let me ask you this.
09:52Just look at its charter, read the words there,
09:54it's what it says about what they intend to do to the Jews.
09:57Benny, Benny, I've interviewed people from Hamas
10:00and I've asked them about the charter.
10:02I'm interviewing you right now and I want to ask you...
10:04I'm sure they tell you it's a nice document.
10:06I'm sure they do.
10:07Israeli minister called Avi Dick, a member of the Security Cabinet,
10:10he said, we're now rolling out the Gaza Nakba.
10:12He was referring to the Nakba, the catastrophe of 1948,
10:14when an estimated 700,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes.
10:17You famously documented a lot of that back in the 80s.
10:19You undermined a lot of Israeli propaganda
10:21that said they just fled on their own.
10:23So whether it's the 1948 Nakba or the 2024 Gaza Nakba,
10:27to quote Avi Dick,
10:29for Palestinians, Zionism is Nakba, it is ethnic cleansing.
10:33Surely you, of all people, can recognise that.
10:35I'm not sure I can recognise that, no.
10:37You keep putting words in my mouth.
10:40Zionism's intent was to establish a Jewish state
10:44in the area called Palestine, the land of Israel.
10:48Initially, the Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state
10:52on the whole land of Israel, or all of Palestine.
10:551937, 1938, Zionism changed and said,
10:59we can't have all of the land, there are lots of Palestinians here,
11:03let's share it with the Palestinians.
11:05In 1937, the British Appeal Commission
11:08proposed the partition of Palestine
11:11between the two peoples living in it.
11:13The Palestinians said no
11:15and continued their war against Britain and the Zionists.
11:18The Zionists said yes to the partition proposal by appeal.
11:22The international community repeated the idea
11:25of the partition of Palestine between the Jews and the Arabs.
11:29In 1947, November, the famous Resolution 181,
11:33the Jews said yes to the UN partition resolution of 1947,
11:38accepting it.
11:40They would get some of Palestine,
11:42the Palestinian Arabs would get the other part,
11:44and the Palestinians said no
11:46and continued their war against Britain and the Arabs.
11:49In 1947, November, the famous Resolution 181,
11:53the Jews said yes to the partition resolution of 1947,
11:57accepting it.
11:59In 1947, November, the famous Resolution 181,
12:02the Jews said yes to the partition resolution of 1947,
12:06accepting it.
12:08In 1947, November, the famous Resolution 181,
12:12the Jews said yes to the partition resolution of 1947,
12:15accepting it.
12:17And I...
12:19APPLAUSE
12:21You can respond.
12:23I'm glad this audience is cheering things I've written.
12:26Because you were right in 2001.
12:28I agree with every word in there.
12:31But as I said, Zionism changed its objective and goal in the 1930s
12:36and agreed reluctantly,
12:39resigned to the idea of partitioning the land,
12:42resigned to the idea of partitioning the land,
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17:48resigned to the idea of partitioning the land,
17:50which is exactly what I expect him to be,
17:52which is a genocide denier and a genocide apologist.
17:54which is exactly what I expect him to be,
17:56which is a genocide denier and a genocide apologist.
17:58Every human rights organization has been defining this as a genocide.
18:00We have the ICJ that has come out and said
18:02We have the ICJ that has come out and said
18:04that there's plausible case for genocide,
18:06and yet we're to believe the Israelis,
18:08the only people who say that it isn't a genocide.
18:10Israel's allowed to be a colonizer,
18:12Israel's allowed to do what it pleases,
18:14and that Palestinians just have to sit by idly and take it.
18:16and that Palestinians just have to sit by idly and take it.
18:18And this is the fundamental problem with Zionism.
18:20And this is the fundamental problem with Zionism.
18:22But we, Palestinians, are the ones who feel Zionism on our bodies.
18:24But we, Palestinians, are the ones who feel Zionism on our bodies.
18:26But we, Palestinians, are the ones who feel Zionism on our bodies.
18:28We've paid for it with our lives.
18:30We've paid for it with our land.
18:32This attempt to redefine Zionism will go nowhere
18:34This attempt to redefine Zionism will go nowhere
18:36because you know, and the world knows, it's a colonial...
18:38because you know, and the world knows, it's a colonial...
18:40It's a colonial...
18:42It's a colonial...
18:44It's a colonial...
18:46Is there a recognition there that a lot of the world,
18:48Is there a recognition there that a lot of the world,
18:50world governments, allies of Israel,
18:52as well as the usual human rights groups,
18:54are very critical, at a minimum, of the way that Israel is prosecuted?
18:56What's going on in Gaza?
18:58Well, first of all, Diana said we're feeling Zionism.
19:00Well, first of all, Diana said we're feeling Zionism.
19:02You're right, you're feeling it,
19:04because the only place in the Middle East
19:06where Arabs are free is Israel.
19:08where Arabs are free is Israel.
19:10And so the freedom that you have, Diana,
19:12is because the only country in the Middle East
19:14is because the only country in the Middle East
19:16where there is freedom is the state of Israel,
19:18from which you benefit, and you should be thankful for it.
19:20and you should be thankful for it.
19:22I'm not grateful at all.
19:24Because the only country in the Middle East
19:26Because the only country in the Middle East
19:28where Arabs can elect their officials,
19:30be elected, be judges at the Supreme Court,
19:32be president of a university,
19:34the only free country in the Middle East is Israel.
19:36the only free country in the Middle East is Israel.
19:38Dan, did you want to respond to that?
19:40I find it staggering that the gentleman to my right
19:42is telling the Palestinian citizen of Israel
19:44how she is experiencing the reality
19:46how she is experiencing the reality
19:48under which she lives.
19:50It's a staggering moment for me.
19:52Now, there were different strands to Zionism.
19:54Now, there were different strands to Zionism.
19:56There was a cultural Zionism,
19:58there was a binational Zionism.
20:00This could have gone in different directions.
20:02From the perspective of 2024,
20:0475 plus years in,
20:06the idea that this is just something benign
20:08the idea that this is just something benign
20:10doesn't match with the reality
20:12that has been lived.
20:14Now, I would say it's clear what this has meant
20:16for Palestinians,
20:18but I would argue it's not doing
20:20what was written on the tin
20:22for Jews either.
20:24I don't think either Israeli Jewish
20:26or global Jewish safety
20:28is best served
20:30by the actions we see
20:32day in, day out
20:34in Gaza.
20:36Would you like to respond to what you've heard from the panel?
20:38I think there's a
20:40misunderstanding here.
20:42There is a separation between Israel
20:44and the West Bank, Israel and the
20:46occupied territory
20:48largely populated by the Palestinians
20:50and the state of Israel.
20:52In Israel itself, there is
20:54a rule of law, there is
20:56generally equality
20:58between the Jews and the Arabs
21:00and you're misrepresenting it when you say
21:02that they are persecuted and he's damn right
21:04in what he says, all the Arab states
21:06are dictatorships which do not allow
21:08their citizens any freedom.
21:10Israeli Arabs enjoy most
21:12of the rights they may be discriminated against
21:14in certain things, but they may
21:16enjoy certain rights which Jews
21:18do not have, for instance, not serving
21:20three years, wasting three years
21:22in the army for example, Israeli Arabs don't do that.
21:24We don't want to do war crimes.
21:26It's fine.
21:28I'm pretty sure most Palestinians aren't desperate to serve
21:30in the Israeli military.
21:32I'm sure you're right.
21:34In
21:36pre-1967, Zionism
21:38and Israel, it was not a colonial
21:40enterprise. In the West Bank,
21:42there is a colonizing and
21:44colonial framework which is
21:46even apartheid-like
21:48in its actual workings.
21:50But in pre-1967 Israel,
21:52that was not the case
21:54and for the first hundred years or so of Zionism
21:56it wasn't a colonial
21:58venture, it wasn't a venture
22:00of an extension of an imperial
22:02Let me just define colonialism since you're
22:04so busy defining genocide.
22:06Imperialism and colonialism
22:08were matched together
22:10in which imperial
22:12and empire sent its children
22:14to dominate and take over a third
22:16world country and exploit its riches
22:18and its people. This is not
22:20what Israel did until
22:221967. Emmanuel, do you agree
22:24with Benny that there is a colonial aspect
22:26and apartheid-like aspect to the occupied West Bank?
22:28No.
22:30Zionism is a national liberation
22:32movement that freed its land
22:34from Arab-Muslim colonialism.
22:36How do you think Islam
22:38expanded itself from the
22:40Arab peninsula to Indonesia,
22:42from Indonesia to Morocco?
22:44Not from the Holy Spirit.
22:46This was conquest and colonialism.
22:48Okay, we are out of time but I'm going to
22:50give Diana the last word before we take a break.
22:52Okay, so now we have a Nakba denier
22:54and a Nakba apologist,
22:56as well as a genocide denier,
22:58genocide apologist.
23:00The point of the matter is that Palestinians
23:02have always paid the price
23:04for Israel's colonial adventures.
23:06My family hails for
23:08hundreds of years from Palestine.
23:10And what happened in 1948
23:12was my family was ethnically
23:14cleansed from Palestine.
23:16Where?
23:18Never able to return
23:20back to their home.
23:22My father died unable to
23:24return back to his village
23:26because of the colonialism that is called Zionism.
23:28There is no place for Zionism.
23:30We are way over on time.
23:32Daniel, 30 seconds, you want to come in?
23:34What's remarkable to me is we've gone from denying
23:36the Nakba, and Benny Morris actually helped
23:38get past that, to threatening
23:40a second Nakba, and that's the
23:42narrative in Israel today, without
23:44going through what's most necessary,
23:46which is acknowledging and healing
23:48and redressing and
23:50Palestinians actually getting their rights.
23:52Because without that, not only will
23:54Palestinians never see peace and security
23:56and the achievement of freedom, but
23:58Jewish Israelis will always live
24:00in the knowledge that that wrong will
24:02create a blowback and there's no security.
24:06That is it for part one
24:08of Head to Head with our special
24:10guest Benny Morris in part two.
24:12We'll be talking about what is happening inside of
24:14Israeli society, we'll be talking a bit more
24:16about Benny Morris' views, and we'll hear
24:18from our, I was going to say patient audience
24:20at Conway Hill, but they're not so patient
24:22tonight. That's in part two of Head to Head.
24:36Welcome back to Head to Head
24:38on Al Jazeera English. I'm with my
24:40guest, Benny Morris, one of Israel's
24:42most famous historians. We have a panel
24:44of experts, and we have a live audience here
24:46in London's Conway Hall, who we will be
24:48hearing from shortly. Benny Morris,
24:50in part one of the show we argued you and
24:52I about genocide, about ethnic
24:54cleansing, about the Nakba. Can we
24:56start part two, Benny, by
24:58agreeing, both of us on something, that
25:00Israel has seen in recent
25:02years a pretty serious, severe
25:04brazen shift to the right,
25:06some would say far right,
25:08with the likes of Bazar El-Smotrich
25:10and Itamar Ben-Gavir in the cabinet,
25:12a lot of fanatical settlers inciting
25:14violence in the occupied West Bank.
25:16According to some polls, 60% of Israeli
25:18Jews say it's better for there to be segregation
25:20between the two societies. 48%,
25:22according to one poll a few years ago, supported
25:24the expulsion of Palestinian citizens of
25:26Israel. What is going on in Israel?
25:28Israel has turned definitely to the right.
25:30It's partly to do with demography.
25:32More religious people are born
25:34more than secular
25:36people. I would say
25:38also, unfortunately, more Sephardi
25:40people are born than Ashkenazi
25:42secular people. I would say
25:44that in addition to the demographic
25:46shift which has taken place
25:48in the last 20, 30, 40 years,
25:50continuous
25:52Arab terrorism and
25:54Arab reluctance to reach a
25:56compromise has also driven Israelis
25:58to the right. You've also been
26:00critical of the far right in Israel, as we just heard you say.
26:02I'm very critical. You've called Netanyahu
26:04cowardly and incompetent, but you
26:06yourself have been criticised by some on the left
26:08both in Israel and abroad, for your own views.
26:10And I just want to get
26:12through some of them with you, because you've said
26:14what many would say are racist things about
26:16Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims.
26:18You've called them barbarians.
26:20You've said they have no moral inhibitions.
26:22You've said they ought to be caged.
26:24You've said Palestinian citizens of Israel
26:26are a time bomb, a fifth column,
26:28the emissary of the enemy.
26:30I got the gist. I know, but the audience need to hear it.
26:32You say you're a liberal, and you believe
26:34in the peace process. A lot of Palestinians would say,
26:36how do we make peace with people who say they're liberal Zionists
26:38and they think of us in this way?
26:40It's quite a question of quoting out of context
26:42which you are indulging in.
26:44Those who
26:46blew up buses and
26:48restaurants
26:50in Israel during the second intifada,
26:52I'm talking about both Hamas and
26:54Fatah terrorists,
26:56I called barbarians
26:58and they behaved... Not just them.
27:00No, I called them barbarians
27:02and they behaved like barbarians. You didn't call
27:04all Arabs barbarians? No, I didn't.
27:06You did, actually, in 2004 in Haaretz.
27:08You said the Arab world as it is today
27:10is barbarian. That's true. The Arab world,
27:12I didn't say all Arabs are barbarians, I said
27:14the Arab world is barbarian
27:16in its behaviour. What does that mean?
27:18Have a look at Syria where the
27:20regime killed about half a million
27:22people in its civil war
27:24trying to suppress an uprising.
27:26Look at Sudan where the Arabs are busy killing
27:28blacks in Darfur.
27:30Look at Libya where they're killing
27:32each other. They throw bombs at
27:34funeral cortages. Look at Iraq.
27:36They behave like barbarians.
27:38If somebody said to you,
27:40and I would say this is anti-Semitic,
27:42if somebody said to you the Jews are barbarians,
27:44the Jewish world is barbarian, I think
27:46you would agree that's anti-Semitic. And if somebody said
27:48I'm not being anti-Semitic because I'm just talking about the IDF.
27:50I don't think it would be anti-Semitic,
27:52it would be false. That's the point.
27:54You don't think it would be anti-Semitic for me to say the Jewish world
27:56is barbarian? It would be false,
27:58not necessarily anti-Semitic.
28:00And when you say the Israeli Arabs are a time bomb,
28:02they're a potential
28:04fifth column. That's all of them.
28:06I said Israel's
28:08Arab minority,
28:10which identifies
28:12in large measure with the
28:14Palestinian cause, is
28:16in the long historical perspective
28:18a potential time bomb.
28:20Yes, I would agree with that.
28:22You said they're a potential fifth column.
28:24Or a potential fifth column, yes.
28:26An emissary of the enemy that is among us.
28:28This is vicious stuff. I don't remember
28:30using the word enemy.
28:32Whether you remember it or not is irrelevant.
28:34Their slide into complete
28:36Palestinization has made them an emissary
28:38of the enemy that is among us.
28:40During the second intifada,
28:42when there were riots by
28:44Israeli Arabs, blocking of roads, etc.,
28:46they behaved like
28:48an emissary of the enemy. This is correct.
28:50It depends on context.
28:52You keep quoting things without
28:54explaining the context. I'm not sure there is
28:56any context for dismissing an entire people as a
28:58fifth column. Nobody is...
29:00Okay, go ahead. Alright, let's talk about some
29:02of your views which are somewhat controversial
29:04many would say. You're not just somebody who said
29:06some... You don't actually want any facts
29:08from me or any explanations
29:10of anything. You just explained yourself very well.
29:12You said the Iraqis who throw bombs.
29:14You just want to accuse.
29:16I'm not accusing actually. It's not an accusation.
29:18It's a fact. This isn't really an interview.
29:20This is basically blame-throwing
29:22and an interrogation.
29:24You don't like defending your views?
29:26I don't like defending my views.
29:28I'm able to defend my views.
29:30You come up with these quotations
29:32which are out of context.
29:34Don't explain the historical context.
29:36The audience doesn't understand what you're talking about.
29:38I just read the entire quote to you.
29:40I read the entire quote to you, Benny.
29:42You used the word racist which you used at the beginning
29:44when you introduced this subject.
29:46Here's something else you said.
29:48You said, we're talking about murder
29:50in far larger numbers. It's not a matter
29:52of money referring to Palestinians in Israel.
29:54It's the society's nature.
29:56Yes, I would say that's a racist comment to say
29:58that the society has a murderous nature.
30:00During the second intifada...
30:02This was said in 2019, Benny, not in the second intifada.
30:04It's not my fault if you can't remember when you said things.
30:06In 2019, you said,
30:08we're talking about murder.
30:10It's the society's nature.
30:12The murder of who?
30:14The murder rates in Israel.
30:16Ah, explain to the audience what we're talking about.
30:18I'm sorry to break it to you.
30:20That doesn't get you out of it.
30:22You said, it's the society's nature.
30:24Let me explain what was going on.
30:26The murder rates by Israeli Arabs
30:28of their fellow people,
30:30basically, not of Jews,
30:32but of fellow Arabs is much, much higher.
30:34It's about 100 or 200% higher
30:36than the murder rate among Jews.
30:38The same applies, incidentally,
30:40to the killing of women.
30:42The same applies to honour murders,
30:44which are called honour killings,
30:46when a woman shows too much leg
30:48or looks at a man the wrong way.
30:50This is, unfortunately,
30:52inherent in Arab societies
30:54in Israel in the Middle East
30:56and among Israeli Arabs as well.
30:58That's the context.
31:00Racist.
31:02You know that's true.
31:04You're a racist.
31:06Is that true or not?
31:08You are a racist.
31:10You are a racist.
31:12You are a racist.
31:14You actually just made a racist comment
31:16when you said,
31:18unfortunately,
31:20there's a higher murder rate
31:22among Jews.
31:24You're a racist.
31:26You're a racist.
31:28You're a racist.
31:30You're a racist.
31:32You're a racist.
31:34You're a racist.
31:36You're a racist.
31:38You're a racist.
31:40You're a racist.
31:42You're a racist.
31:44You're a racist.
31:46You're a racist.
31:48You're a racist.
31:50You're a racist.
31:52You're a racist.
31:54You're a racist.
31:56You're a racist.
31:58You're a racist.
32:00You're a racist.
32:02You're a racist.
32:04You're a racist.
32:06You're a racist.
32:08You're a racist.
32:10You're a racist.
32:12You're a racist.
32:14You're a racist.
32:16You're a racist.
32:18You're a racist.
32:20You're a racist.
32:22You're a racist.
32:24You're a racist.
32:26You're a racist.
32:28You're a racist.
32:30You're a racist.
32:32You're a racist.
32:34You're a racist.
32:36You're a racist.
32:38You're a racist.
32:40You're a racist.
32:42You're a racist.
32:44You're a racist.
32:46You're a racist.
32:48You're a racist.
32:50You're a racist.
32:52You're a racist.
32:54You're a racist.
32:56You're a racist.
32:58You're a racist.
33:00You're a racist.
33:02You're a racist.
33:04You're a racist.
33:06You're a racist.
33:08You're a racist.
33:10You're a racist.
33:12You're a racist.
33:14You're a racist.
33:16You're a racist.
33:18You're a racist.
33:20You're a racist.
33:22You're a racist.
33:24You're a racist.
33:26You're a racist.
33:28You're a racist.
33:30You're a racist.
33:32You're a racist.
33:34You're a racist.
33:36You're a racist.
33:38You're a racist.
33:40You're a racist.
33:42You're a racist.
33:44You're a racist.
33:46You're a racist.
33:48You're a racist.
33:50You're a racist.
33:52You're a racist.
33:54You're a racist.
33:56You're a racist.
33:58You're a racist.
34:00You're a racist.
34:02You're a racist.
34:04You're a racist.
34:06You're a racist.
34:08You're a racist.
34:10You're a racist.
34:12You're a racist.
34:14You're a racist.
34:16You're a racist.
34:18You're a racist.
34:20You're a racist.
34:22You're a racist.
34:24You're a racist.
34:26You're a racist.
34:28You're a racist.
34:30You're a racist.
34:32You're a racist.
34:34You're a racist.
34:36You're a racist.
34:38You're a racist.
34:40You're a racist.
34:42You're a racist.
34:44You're a racist.
34:46You're a racist.
34:48You're a racist.
34:50You're a racist.
34:52You're a racist.
34:54You're a racist.
34:56You're a racist.
34:58You're a racist.
35:00You're a racist.
35:02You're a racist.
35:04You're a racist.
35:06OK, Emmanuel, I want to ask you this.
35:08Do you recognize the shifts that Benny was agreeing on
35:13at the start of this segment
35:15about what was happening inside
35:17of Israeli society?
35:19Well, allow me to respond to what Diana just said.
35:21She's not telling the truth.
35:23What she's saying is not true.
35:25First of all, the Jewish city I mean,
35:28there are over 190 states in the world,
35:31most of them are nation states.
35:34It's not about supremacy, it is about national self-determination and freedom.
35:39Now, we didn't come to you.
35:40This is our land.
35:42No, it's not.
35:42This is a Jewish land.
35:43The way that the state was created was through the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, including
35:49my family.
35:50Let him finish his point, Diana.
35:52OK.
35:52First of all, when you say we've been there for hundreds of years, the world Palestine,
35:57it's an invention of British colonialism.
36:00It was invented in 1920.
36:02It did not exist under the Ottoman Empire.
36:05So when this story starts, it's a colonial invention.
36:10So when you say Palestine, and you can't even pronounce it in Arabic, because there's no
36:14P in Arabic.
36:14That's why we say Philistine, right?
36:16There's no J in Hebrew.
36:18We did not come to you.
36:19All right, Emmanuel, I'm going to bring you back to my question and then move on.
36:23What do you make of Bilal al-Smotrich and Itmar Ben-Gavir referring to Arabs in the
36:27most dehumanizing way?
36:28So are you going to deny that as well?
36:30Like every society, we have our extremists.
36:32OK.
36:33It's a democracy.
36:35I don't agree with them.
36:36But we have, like every society, we have our extremists.
36:39And yours are in government.
36:41Yes, well, I didn't vote for this government.
36:43I wish they were not in the government.
36:44OK.
36:44Daniel hasn't spoken.
36:45Daniel Levy.
36:46When I was in a Zionist youth movement and president of the World Union of Jewish Students
36:51being pumped with the talking points and the propaganda points, I really think they were
36:57more sophisticated.
36:58And I may be misremembering this.
37:00I cannot, genuinely cannot believe that this is what now constitutes an Israeli attempt
37:10at defending and putting your best foot forward.
37:13But then I look at the reality in Israel today, and of course that's what it should look like.
37:18Because what's the reality we're living in?
37:21And let me take two snapshots.
37:23First of all, it's really not that surprising that we've got to this point when you consider
37:31the impunity with which the external community and Israel's allies and the West and the U.S.
37:39treat Israel, despite the litany, the entire spectrum of violations of international law
37:47and of human rights.
37:48And yet every time there's an excuse, there's a veto at the United Nations, and then there's
37:53more arms.
37:54And in that respect, don't expect Israelis to come up with better talking points when
37:59they don't have to, because you're willing to run cover for them and create completely
38:03the wrong incentives.
38:05OK, but please respond briefly.
38:08I must protest.
38:10You've got three people in a panel, two of whom are pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist.
38:16That's the purpose of the panel, yes.
38:18It's supposed to be two against one.
38:20That's the way you've organized this.
38:21Yes, we did ask you to watch the show before you came here.
38:23I consider myself pro-Jewish, pro-Palestinian, pro-human.
38:26I consider myself...
38:27OK.
38:31No, let me finish.
38:31Please.
38:32Let me finish.
38:33You are a pro-Palestinian propagandist.
38:35That's all you've become.
38:37Just so that you know that.
38:38Let's go around the audience.
38:39We're going to try and see where we've got some hands up.
38:41We're going to go to the gentleman here, third row, with the jacket on.
38:45Just if you could say something more from an Israeli perspective,
38:48in terms of the threat they face from Hamas as an Islamist movement,
38:52which is pledged to slaughter all the Jews in Israel.
38:55That's what it says in its charter.
38:56Never revoked charter.
38:58If you could explain that in more detail, please.
39:00The Hamas is a small organization with a small army of terrorists.
39:07It doesn't represent, in my view, an existential threat to Israel.
39:11But as part of the larger Muslim radical Arab world,
39:18that part of it, including Iran,
39:21together they do represent an existential threat to Israel.
39:25Israel is not fighting merely the Hamas.
39:27It's fighting the Houthis.
39:29It's fighting militias in Syria and Iraq.
39:31It's fighting the Hezbollah,
39:32orchestrated by the Iranians at the moment,
39:35which wants to destroy Israel.
39:37Yes.
39:38Lady here in the third row on the second.
39:40My question is to Deanna or Daniel,
39:43because I want an honest and truthful answer.
39:46Given the decades-long brutality against the Palestinians
39:48by the Israeli government,
39:50without much regard for international law or consequences,
39:53should we have seen the escalation of this genocide coming?
39:56And what could be the global implications
39:58when states disregard international law
40:01to justify and even normalize genocide?
40:04Deanna, briefly.
40:05We've gotten to a point in this world
40:07where the world tells us that nothing can justify October 7th,
40:11and yet everything that Israel has done since October 7th
40:14can be justified by October 7th.
40:16That's a distorted world.
40:18And we have to understand what this occupation has meant.
40:21It's been violent from day one.
40:24The Nakba was violent.
40:25And what we're seeing today is a continuation of that Nakba.
40:29For world order to be restored,
40:32we need to have a system where all states are held to account,
40:36not where we get to have a country that says it's time to bomb Iran
40:39because they might have a nuclear weapon.
40:41Big secret.
40:42Israel has a nuclear weapon, too.
40:44Gentleman in the brown jacket,
40:45and then the gentleman here in the blue jumper.
40:48I know that we're on Al Jazeera, a Qatari station.
40:51What do we think about the fact that Qatar has funded Hamas
40:55for so long, persecuting Gazan Palestinians?
40:58And also, we haven't heard one mention
41:00of the 120 hostages still being kept.
41:03What pressure could Qatar be putting on Hamas
41:06to release those hostages immediately,
41:08regardless of all the rest of this?
41:10Well, Qatar has been supporting the Hamas for at least a decade,
41:15with money, propaganda, et cetera, et cetera,
41:18probably using Al Jazeera also in that fashion.
41:24This should end.
41:25I think normal states shouldn't support
41:27what the world regards, or at least the Western world,
41:30regards uniformly as a terrorist organization.
41:34It's true that Hamas is still holding 120 Israeli hostages,
41:38women, children, octogenarians, two-year-olds and whatever.
41:43They had 250 in the beginning.
41:44Now it's been reduced to 120,
41:46many of them killed by Hamas people.
41:50Many of them killed by Hamas.
41:52And by Israelis.
41:53And by Israelis also.
41:54Israelis also killed some of the hostages.
41:57Hopefully, they will be released.
41:59We hope they will be released.
42:01I would just say one thing.
42:03Why did the Israeli government prop up Hamas for so long
42:05and encourage Qatar to send money to Gaza?
42:08Stupidly.
42:08Out of stupidity.
42:09They're not hearing my answer.
42:11You asked the question, so let me answer the question.
42:14You gave a long answer there.
42:15The answer is that the Israeli government under Netanyahu
42:18behaved stupidly.
42:19And this was part of the incompetence of Netanyahu.
42:22I don't think it was incompetence.
42:24Let's go to the gentleman here in the blue jumper.
42:26I'm Martin Shaw, and I wrote a book called What Is Genocide?
42:28Oh, perfect person.
42:30I wanted to bring Benny back to Gaza.
42:32Because you said it's a war, and there's collateral damage,
42:35and that Hamas knew.
42:37And that may be true.
42:38But I mean, the real point is that Israel knew, isn't it?
42:41That if you bend the rules of war so that 100 people can be
42:46killed for one militant, if you do that thousands and thousands
42:50of times with 2,000 pound bombs, you
42:53know that the whole of Gaza is going to be a ruin.
42:56You know that you're going to destroy that society.
42:59And that the only way we can understand that, in an overall
43:04sense, is not a series of war crimes.
43:06It is one big crime, and I think the name for that is genocide.
43:10Absolutely.
43:10Do you want to respond to that?
43:13Hold on.
43:14Let him respond.
43:16I think I've already made the point.
43:18The Hamas, when it attacked Israel on the 7th of May,
43:21knew that Israel would retaliate with bombing, and knew that lots
43:25of Gazan civilians would die.
43:27They were hoping for that, because that looks good on
43:29Western television images.
43:30But they say that killing a lot of Gaza civilians is good,
43:34because they go to heaven.
43:35They become martyrs.
43:37So this is allowed.
43:38Benny, can I ask you a question?
43:40Can I?
43:41Hold on.
43:41Did I say something wrong?
43:43No, no, I just want to follow your logic here.
43:46The Hamas knew that.
43:47I just want to follow your logic.
43:48The Hamas knew that.
43:49I just want to follow your logic.
43:50Your argument is, Hamas knew that if they did this,
43:53we'd do a genocide, so we did a genocide.
43:54Not genocide, no.
43:55You're misleading people.
43:56They knew that we would come and kill lots of people, so we did.
43:58It's a very weird argument.
43:59They knew that Israel would kill lots of Gazans.
44:01They knew that Israel would kill lots of Gazans.
44:02Not a great defense of Israel.
44:03Yes, they knew that.
44:04Going after the Hamas, they knew that lots of Gazan civilians
44:07would be killed, and they were happy with this,
44:09because of international pressure which would result.
44:11OK, we're running out of time.
44:12I want to take a gentleman in the suit.
44:13Yes.
44:14Benny Morris, you say that the ICC should issue an arrest warrant
44:18against the Israeli prime minister and the Israeli war minister.
44:21You have Gallant.
44:23But on the 9th of October, they imposed a total siege
44:26on 2.3 million civilians in Gaza,
44:28depriving them of water, medicine, food.
44:32That is what they're accused of.
44:34Starvation is a weapon of war,
44:35something that the Syrian and the Russian regimes were accused of.
44:40Do you condemn that?
44:40Has anybody died in Gaza of starvation?
44:44Yes.
44:46Yes, Benny.
44:46This is total nonsense.
44:51You want me to answer?
44:51Yes, I do.
44:52But I want some evidence.
44:53You can't just say things that are false.
44:54I'm not going to let you say that.
44:55The Israeli government, I think the ministers,
44:57debated whether to cut off water, cut off electricity, etc, etc.
45:02They eventually resolved not to do that.
45:05And though lots of reporters have been saying,
45:09and the United Nations,
45:10that Gaza is on the verge of starvation,
45:13on the verge of famine, etc, etc.
45:15That has not happened.
45:16Benny, how do you know that?
45:17How do you know that?
45:18Hold on!
45:19Stop heckling!
45:20How do you know that, Benny?
45:21And please, we can talk.
45:23I haven't read any report of anyone dying of starvation.
45:26There have been many reports.
45:27I haven't read any.
45:28So that makes it nonsense because you haven't read any.
45:30I haven't heard of anybody dying of starvation.
45:33You don't think there's a famine in northern Gaza?
45:34No, I think there's a food problem there.
45:36People, food is...
45:38Do you think there's a famine in northern Gaza?
45:39I don't know what the word famine means.
45:40There is a food problem.
45:42There's malnutrition.
45:44This I have heard.
45:46But nobody's died.
45:47They've all conveniently stayed alive.
45:48As far as I know, nobody has died of starvation in Gaza.
45:53As far as I know.
45:54I've read quotes from you saying you're a historian.
45:55You look at the sources, you find the evidence.
45:57And now you're like, I don't know what famine means.
45:59I haven't seen anything.
46:00It's a big claims you're making.
46:02You should back it up with some evidence.
46:03You should back it up.
46:05Tell me a report in which somebody has died of starvation.
46:08Cindy McCain.
46:09Who's Cindy McCain?
46:10Is the head of the World Food Programme.
46:12She's the widow...
46:13Wait, she said what?
46:14She said what?
46:15She's the widow of Senator John McCain,
46:17the most pro-Israeli senator of my lifetime.
46:19She said what?
46:20She said northern Gaza is in a full-blown famine
46:22and that there are children, women and children,
46:24in skeletal states there.
46:25Did she say somebody died of starvation?
46:28I'm asking you.
46:30Did anybody die of starvation?
46:31Yes, there have been documented cases.
46:33Read the newspapers.
46:34Read the humanitarian agencies.
46:35What you just quoted didn't talk about starvation.
46:37You said there was no famine a moment ago.
46:38I didn't say.
46:39I said I don't know what famine is.
46:40Well, that's a good get-out and it's at the core of the discussion.
46:42Let's take another question.
46:44Gentleman in the green jacket's been waiting a while.
46:46Hi, my question is to Benny.
46:47I just want to know,
46:50if you were Palestinian, right,
46:52and you were born in Palestine,
46:53would you, given the circumstances,
46:56support a Palestinian's right to resistance
46:59in the form that they have...
47:01I don't know about the form I would support Palestinian resistance
47:04if I was living under Israeli occupation, yes.
47:07Which is what the Palestinians are.
47:08APPLAUSE
47:12Benny, Benny, we're out of time.
47:14I do...
47:15It's a very interesting question he posed.
47:17Very interesting answer.
47:17I do want to ask about...
47:18Because I watched a recent discussion you did
47:20and you were telling your opponent,
47:22you need to have empathy.
47:23You need to put yourself in other people's shoes.
47:25So let's just continue on gentleman's very good question, I thought.
47:27I mean, if you were a kid in Gaza right now
47:29and you saw your home blown up by the Israeli Air Force,
47:32you saw your parents incinerated in front of you,
47:35you're starving,
47:37what's your view of Israel going to be?
47:39It'll probably be very negative,
47:40but it might also be negative towards the Hamas
47:43who generated this conflict
47:45and led to that home being bombed by Israel.
47:47You think that's what the kid is thinking
47:48when he sees his parents killed by an Israeli bomb?
47:50He might think both things.
47:51He probably...
47:52What would you think if you were that kid?
47:54Probably I would describe the death of his parents
47:58to an Israeli bomb and to the Israelis,
48:00but I might, on reflection later,
48:02think maybe the Hamas shouldn't have slaughtered
48:04so many Israelis on the 7th of October,
48:06which led to this.
48:08I'm genuinely asking, is that your talking point?
48:10Or is that, as a human being, that's how you would feel?
48:12As a human being, I think I would feel anger
48:15towards those who had just killed my parents,
48:17but I think growing up and on reflection,
48:20I might think that the Hamas had led to this.
48:24I might think...
48:24Quite the empathy I was looking for, but we will...
48:27I mean, if that's your honest answer, I'll take it.
48:28That's my answer.
48:29I appreciate that.
48:30Benny Morris, thank you for joining me on the show today.
48:33Thank you to our audience in London's Conway Hall.
48:35Thank you to our panel of experts who joined the discussion.
48:39That's all we have time for.
48:40Thank you for watching at home.
48:42Good night.