If it's more than the usual pain, Could You Look a Little Deeper, Please__
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00:00Good evening, everyone, and thanks for joining us for DocTalks with Dr. Forrest Tennant and
00:05friends.
00:06This is episode six of season four, and we have a special guest with us, Donna Corley.
00:12We're so happy to have her with us and have everyone on board with us.
00:16Dr. Ibsen, we'll turn it over to you while we get things straightened out on Dr. Tennant's
00:21end.
00:22Oh, that sounds great.
00:23Thank you, Jamie.
00:24I'm going to propose, if it's okay with you, you can nod.
00:28Why don't we just start with Donna?
00:32Donna gets to tell her story, and Dr. Tennant can hear us.
00:37So when he gets his voice, then he can lead the discussion with Donna.
00:42Does that sound good?
00:45Sounds great to me.
00:46Okay, Donna.
00:47Okay.
00:48There you are.
00:49Great.
00:50It's good to see you.
00:52Welcome.
00:53Hey, it's good to see you, too.
00:57Donna, tell us your story.
01:01Just a quick introduction.
01:02A short version and a quick introduction, okay?
01:07I am married with three kids and 12 grandkids.
01:13I'm 100% disabled.
01:19The initial insult, I guess you would say, for my injury started in 1989 with a car wreck
01:29when I broke my back in three places, and that's when everything started for me as far
01:34as back issues and really health issues.
01:38I know I've told this several times before, but that progressed to the point to where
01:50I became fully disabled 23 years later.
01:55That's how long it took me to be diagnosed with adhesive brachymoiditis.
02:00That's kind of the short version.
02:02Not only that, I was diagnosed with Torloff's cyst disease in 2009, and then in 2012, I
02:10was diagnosed with RSD, CRPS.
02:15They said it was related to the nerve damage caused from the Torloff's cyst and the adhesive
02:20brachymoiditis.
02:23Which extremity?
02:25Lower left leg.
02:28I wound up in the ER one night because my left foot and leg had turned almost completely
02:36black.
02:38I didn't know what was going on.
02:40I couldn't touch it.
02:42It felt like somebody had doused it with gasoline, is what it felt like.
02:47I wound up in the ER, and luckily the ER doctor knew what it was because his wife had had
02:53spine surgery, and she had developed that in her spine.
02:59So he knew what it was.
03:02Wow.
03:03Yeah.
03:04Crazy.
03:05Did the color return to your foot and all that kind of stuff without any interventions?
03:10I was in the middle of a massive flare.
03:15I didn't realize that's what that was.
03:18But eventually it did subside and the color came back to it.
03:22But I noticed when one thing would flare, like if my arachnoiditis or Torloff's cyst
03:28would flare, then it would cause the other two to flare.
03:33So it was just like three in one.
03:37If one started, then the other two started as well.
03:41Did you have surgery on your back?
03:44No.
03:46Epidural steroid injections?
03:48No.
03:50I had epidurals during labor.
03:53I had two epidurals during labor with my last two children.
03:58And that was long before the accident, right?
04:01Actually, the first accident when I broke my back, that was in 89.
04:07I had my daughter in 90.
04:12And then my second child in 92 is when I had my first epidural.
04:20Okay.
04:23So if I was Dr. Tennant, I might be speculating that maybe the trauma was the introduction
04:29and then the re-traumatizing with the epidural might be the reason for the flare maybe.
04:37Are you on opiates at this time?
04:40Yes.
04:42Thank God.
04:43Yeah.
04:45But that's not the main thing that helps me.
04:52What is the main thing that helps you?
04:54It's a combination of what I take.
04:57It's the opioid with the catorlax and dexamethasone.
05:03With those three combinations, that is what helps me function.
05:08Before I was prescribed the catorlax and the dexamethasone, I was only on the opioid with
05:18the muscle relaxers, and I went down really bad with those, just being on that, because
05:24nothing was really addressing my inflammation.
05:28I had started off with a cane, and then I progressed to a walker, and then to a wheelchair.
05:36And I was not getting any better.
05:39And Dr. Tennant started coming out with these treatment options, especially with the catorlax
05:45and the steroids, but I noticed I could not take them orally.
05:53And I did my DNA test and did the medical on it, and it started showing that I had these anomalies.
06:03And for me, I have a genetic enzyme disorder basically in my gut that does not let me absorb
06:13medications like I should.
06:17So with that, that kind of made sense on why it would make me really sick when I took these
06:25oral medications.
06:27But it also showed that I was a very poor metabolizer, which also made sense why I couldn't
06:33take long-acting medications, especially opioids.
06:37So whenever I approached my doctor about this, I was on the oral steroid, which I could not
06:45take.
06:46I had really bad side effects, especially with the prednisone.
06:51You ever heard of ROID rage, steroid rage?
06:55I know some people get it, and it just makes you very, very irritable.
06:59That was one of the side effects, but my head felt like it was just on fire, I mean scalp
07:07and all, when I would take it orally.
07:09So I asked him about the injections.
07:13I'd never done injections at home before.
07:15I said, just let me try it for a month and see if I can tolerate it.
07:20And he actually let me try the Couture Relax with steroid injections, and I've been on
07:27them ever since for about three years now.
07:30And I don't have any side effects other than just sweating profusely because of my
07:38inflammation staying so high.
07:42But that's the only real side effects that I have.
07:47Are you using a cane or a walker or a wheelchair?
07:50Nope, none of that now, since I started that.
07:56Miraculous.
07:58Yeah, so I did a total about face just by adding the Couture Relax and the dexamethasone.
08:06Got it.
08:08Are you on anything else, like any of the supplements that we've been talking about
08:13or turmeric or collagen or colostrum?
08:21No, I haven't started taking those, but I think with the doses that I had was just
08:26too high, and I was taking them too frequently.
08:31And that's another thing, even with me with supplements, with me being such a poor
08:38metabolizer, I have to spread it out further because it takes longer for my body to get
08:44rid of it.
08:46So it's the same thing with steroids and the Couture Relax.
08:50Now, I can't take the Couture Relax.
08:54I usually take, I've been, he prescribes me 60 milligrams a week, which is a lot.
09:01Some people may think it's a lot, but for me, it's not because it's spread out twice
09:05a week.
09:06And I take my dexamethasone once a week.
09:10That's enough for me.
09:12I think anything any higher would probably make me sick because of it taking so long
09:18for it to get out of my systems.
09:21I know he was worried about side effects because it does hit your kidneys and your liver.
09:27But you can take supplements to counteract that, which is what I do.
09:34In the past three, I'd say three, three and a half years that I've been on this, I've
09:39never had a bad test result come back.
09:45You know, but that's me.
09:47Everybody's different.
09:48Not everybody's going to react the same.
09:50But you have to do something to counteract the side effects of these medications that
09:56you take.
09:58You know, that's your part that you're going to have to play in order for you to be able
10:03to take these medications.
10:06And that's what I had to prove to my doctor is that, yes, they have bad side effects,
10:12especially with me already having kidney problems.
10:16But you have to prove to your doctor that you can do this.
10:21You know, but you're the one that's going to have to take the initiative and make sure
10:27that you're doing everything you can to make sure those blood tests come out normal so
10:33you can continue to take this medication.
10:36So you would be taking something like milk thistle or something else to support your
10:40liver functions?
10:42Yeah, every now and again, I keep an eye on my well, I get my kidneys and my liver checked
10:49every three months.
10:51But if my blood work starts getting wonky or whatever, then that's when I start that.
10:56But other than that, I take 100 percent organic extract, cranberry pills, high potency
11:05cranberry pills.
11:06That's what I take.
11:08And that's for kidney support?
11:10Yeah.
11:11OK.
11:12And it works great.
11:14It works great for that.
11:16Jean wants to know, do you still have your gallbladder?
11:19Yes.
11:20OK.
11:23And then how has this affected your need for opiates?
11:27Have you had a decreased need for pain medication since you've been on this program for three
11:33and a half years?
11:35Oh, man.
11:36Well, actually, whenever they come out with the new updated guidelines, before I started
11:41Catorlax and dexamethasone, I was on two different kind of opioids.
11:46I rotated them.
11:49And when the guidelines come out, they said you couldn't take the two different types
11:54of opioids.
11:57So they cut me.
11:59So I was down to one.
12:00You know, so now, you know, I'm not on a high dose of opioids now.
12:08And I've never had to increase the amount that I take.
12:14I'm kind of what you call a lightweight.
12:17I have to cut mine in half and take a half and then wait an hour and take the other half.
12:22If I don't, it makes me sick.
12:24That would be typical of someone who's a slow metabolizer of opiates.
12:27Yeah.
12:28Yeah.
12:30OK.
12:32Wow.
12:33Miraculous.
12:36Rhonda, any questions?
12:42I do have a couple of comments to make.
12:47I had reached out to Donna a while back.
12:51Donna, you may remember why, but I was I was having some kind of complaint and you recommended
12:57these cranberry pills to take along with this program.
13:01Do you remember that, Donna?
13:04I do.
13:06Good.
13:08And I started taking them without issue and it did improve.
13:14So, I think your testimony here of taking the Catorlac and the dexamethasone is very encouraging to others.
13:29Being able to reduce the opioids, you're not on a walker, you're not in a wheelchair.
13:36It's phenomenal.
13:38It just goes to show that this program can and does work.
13:42And I'm just really happy for your success, Donna.
13:46Plus, I'm super proud of you on a personal level.
13:50I'm proud of you too, girl.
13:52Exactly which kidney functions have improved by being on the cranberry?
13:59I've always taken them off and on.
14:01So, as long as I take them, I've never had.
14:05The only time I've had problems with my kidneys is I developed because of the tarlov cysts and the nerve damage.
14:14And I guess that with the adhesive arachnoiditis in my lower spine, I've lost feeling where my bladder is.
14:22So, I can't tell when my bladder is full.
14:24I have to remind myself to go to the bathroom.
14:27I developed a UTI and then turned septic and did not know that I was septic until my husband took me to the ER.
14:37Well, I wound up at ICU for three days.
14:39Well, that's when I learned right quick, like, and that's been quite a few years ago.
14:45That's when I basically learned the hard way, do something to at least keep this cleaned out.
14:52And that's when I realized that that was a real issue for me.
14:56Because of the nerve damage.
14:59Got it.
15:00So, that was a hard lesson for me to realize because no doctor had ever told me,
15:03hey, you got nerve damage, you know where your bladder is.
15:07And, you know, you're basically figuring this out on your own.
15:13So, that's kind of when that started.
15:15How do you monitor this?
15:17Do you set a timer to go and pee or what do you do?
15:22No, I don't.
15:23I just try to remember to go during the day and make sure I take my cranberry extract.
15:29That will remind you to go pee with the cranberry extract.
15:33Yeah, yeah.
15:34Because it does swish the kidney.
15:36It will.
15:37So, it will remind you to go.
15:39Okay.
15:40You know, but I mean, I wound up with the same issue again with the kidney stone.
15:47Which they said my body produces from eating healthy.
15:51If you can believe that.
15:53Yeah, I do.
15:54Wow.
15:55Yeah.
15:56For me not to change my diet because my diet is healthy.
16:00You know, but that's what's causing the kidney stones.
16:03So, I wound up my month before last was a stent.
16:08And I didn't realize it was a kidney stone.
16:11Again, you know, you can feel it in your back when it moves.
16:15But I was on the verge of being septic again.
16:18You already got back pain.
16:19Yeah.
16:20Right.
16:21You know, and as severe as it was, I thought I'd blown out a disc.
16:25That's how bad it was because I couldn't move.
16:29But again, did not know I was on the verge of septic again.
16:34Because the kidney stone had actually blocked the duct coming from my kidney down to my bladder.
16:41So, my kidney was not draining.
16:43You know, so it's insane having these diseases and how they affect you.
16:49Because a lot of people just, you know, assume, oh, you just have back pain.
16:54Or, you know, and I've had some patients tell me, oh, you know, my family thinks I'm faking it.
17:00And they have no idea what it's like and what you have to juggle to live with these diseases.
17:08No idea.
17:09Yeah.
17:10Right.
17:11I mean, just on a daily regimen of the stuff you have to take and the things you have to do just to keep your body functioning.
17:21Yep.
17:22You know.
17:23Well, I think.
17:24Go ahead.
17:25Go ahead.
17:26Go ahead.
17:27No, I mean, it's not like we sit around and talk about it.
17:30It's not like we sit down and talk to your family about, you know, this is what I have to do in order to live.
17:37You know, so.
17:39There's a really great lesson for all of us politically and practically and medically.
17:46When thinking stops, the unthinkable can happen.
17:51So it's our responsibility to make sure that our providers don't assume that any pain that we're having is due to the usual stuff.
18:01In other words, the usual suspects are the usual suspects.
18:06And, you know, I was taught in medical school when you hear hoof beats, hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.
18:13But each one of us is a zebra and they can think that we're just a horse.
18:19And so, you know, it takes persistence and advocacy in order to get the appropriate diagnosis.
18:25And thank God you did on both of those cases.
18:28And that, you know, bladder issues are common with adhesive arachniditis.
18:32It's kind of part of the caught a koina syndrome.
18:35Right. Well, it is with tarlof cyst as well.
18:40Because if you have a symptomatic tarlof cyst, depending on what nerves is compressing, it affects the bowels and the bladder.
18:54Yeah. Perfect.
18:56Anything else you want the rest of us to know?
19:01Be good to yourself.
19:03Remember to be good to yourself.
19:06Remember that, you know, and just because you have this disease, don't let it define who you are and what you do.
19:16Right.
19:17And be good to yourself. How often? Like every year when you have a birthday?
19:22I'm sorry? No.
19:24Do you have to be good to yourself like once a year when you have a birthday or is it more frequent than that?
19:29Every day.
19:30Every day.
19:32Every day.
19:36And it's not personal.
19:38This is a key thing. And I think I can hear this in your voice.
19:41It's not personal when a doctor misses your diagnosis.
19:45We are difficult patients to make diagnoses on.
19:49And it's it's it's it's a flaw in our system.
19:58And we need to advocate for ourselves.
20:04And and here I am giving advice that I don't follow.
20:12But the more militant you are, the more likely they're going to stop thinking about you.
20:17Other people can dehumanize us. They can think of us as an abstract object.
20:22Like there's another frequent flyer. That's the common thing in the ER.
20:27There's another frequent flyer here in room three.
20:29Well, whenever I heard that as an ER doctor, I said, I'm not going to do anything more.
20:34I'm going to go scratch and take a history because because if everybody else has the patient categorized before you start thinking about it, you'll miss something.
20:43And what you want to ask your doctor is, I know I have this illness, but I think something else is going on.
20:49Would you look a little deeper, please? Something like that.
20:52And, you know, I mean, if they screw up, sue them.
20:54I mean, you know, you can do that, but bringing fear into it does not get your diagnosis.
21:01And it doesn't. As me as a practitioner, every time I judge my patients, I take a whole lot of other options off the list that I don't think of because I've got the patient categorized already.
21:13So we just want to continue to ask. I know I have these other diagnoses, but could you look a little deeper?
21:19I'm concerned about this. And that's the way you get a diagnosis like like you did.
21:25You were assertive and thank God you got better.
21:30All right. Thank you. And Dr. Ibsen, that that was powerful.
21:35So I need I need some prayer work done. All right.
21:40So yesterday, three of my patients were notified that they weren't getting treatment anymore.
21:46These are patients who are who have been with me for about a year.
21:53And what I need is a prayer for one of the patients particularly that I was just talking to before this meeting.
22:03And the two words came up. I'm done. Now, I don't know what those mean.
22:10So so what I want people to know is that I'm done means I'm done doing it that way.
22:23It doesn't have to mean I'm done with the world, with life, with everything.
22:27You can take a break as long as you like. You can take a day off a week off.
22:32You can you can give yourself some space. You can be kind to yourself.
22:36You can watch some movies and then see how you feel.
22:43And what I'm what I'm concerned about is, you know, these are consequences of the opioid settlement agreement.
22:51And and we now have pharmacists that are intimidated about the loss of their business.
22:58One of my patients in California basically was told we can't give you these doses.
23:03And of course, these are high dose patients. So. It's like, OK, here's another step to take.
23:12I don't I don't know. I spent a couple hours on the phone with several people yesterday about this.
23:18And it's the one thing I'm hopeful about is that since the pharmacists have lost control, they are no longer the gatekeepers.
23:26It's the new gatekeepers are the I don't know, the attorney generals,
23:31the national group of attorneys general for the states or or the distributors that have been assigned to police this.
23:41But for sure, the pharmacists are not in charge anymore.
23:43And so there's an opening for us to create some type of class or section that includes patients, doctors, pharmacists.
23:51And maybe that might be successful. And I'm going to be lobbying to create something like that.
23:59So prayers for these patients have been cut off, please.
24:04And I hope they answer the phone after this, after the Zoom thing is over.
24:10All right. Definitely. We'll all be joining in prayer for all of them.
24:18Dr. Ibsen, I have a question. Is there a new MME conversion chart?
24:28Well, they're all pulled out of someone's ass, so they all should be ignored. Right.
24:33Exactly. But is there a new one on the horizon from like 2016 that makes a say, for instance, a four milligram dilaudid tablet equal 20 MME now?
24:53I have no idea. I have no idea. But if I thought something about MME, I probably wouldn't read it because it's all bogus.
25:00You're correct. I just had a patient today and I had no clue.
25:04Yeah, go ahead. Yes, please. It is correct.
25:09Yes, they have. They have essentially what they've done.
25:14And that's why I keep bringing up 2030 because I keep seeing it show up in bill proposals, the global initiatives, the health initiatives.
25:24And Jamie just sent me something that is yet another global health initiative that mentions 2030.
25:32And I think that's the year they're aiming for for elimination.
25:37They've also sorry, this really upsets me and makes me angry because I know what it's like.
25:45And it's only going to get worse. And everybody needs to know that.
25:49And I think it's a way to go after more doctors, too, because they've eliminated the higher prescribers.
25:55And now, OK, we have everybody that's maybe following the guidelines.
26:01So we have to create something else that they're doing wrong. Right.
26:07Everything is just insane right now. And they're flooding the medical journals.
26:14Something I really noticed probably in the last year has really gone rogue.
26:22And Rhonda, you are correct. Yes, they're essentially doubling.
26:27I mean, they'll just do anything. And they want to put everybody in a box in a category.
26:32If we all haven't noticed that by now. Right. Everybody got yourself.
26:36You're not an individual. You're this or this or this.
26:42OK, thank you. So when flooding happens.
26:48When flooding happens. When flooding happens, seek higher ground.
26:56So, yes, there's flooding. It's just idiotic.
27:01But we have there's a there's a comment that happens in the law.
27:08I got a lot of legal experience in the last 10 years. And my attorney told me, if you have the facts, pound the facts.
27:14If you have the law upon the law, if you have neither pound the table.
27:18And this is table pounding. They don't have the facts and they don't have the law.
27:23And we have to just persist and stay alive long enough to get this narrative reversed.
27:29It's like turning the Titanic. But it's it's like we are right.
27:33We are in a righteous cause. They think they're in a righteous cause.
27:39And we have to disabuse them of that by persisting, staying alive and litigating.
27:48So the reason I'm upset these days is I have four cases now before the Board of Medicine in Montana.
27:56And so it's no longer secret what I'm up to.
27:59I'm actually if you look at the opioid rapid response team that the CDC says they have,
28:09when you go to that section of their Web site, they have a picture of an ambulance, which would imply that someone's on their way to help.
28:14Right. And there's nothing there. There's just an email.
28:18And all they do is is chat about how to relieve people in pain.
28:24They don't have a 1-800 number. They don't have anything to they do not rapidly response to anybody who's lost their access.
28:32I do. I'm the only one doing as far as I know. There may be others who are stealth.
28:38But what I what I what I want to be doing. Hi, David.
28:42What I want to be doing is is to be absolutely certain that people know that the CDC is providing nothing in terms of relief to anybody who's lost access.
28:56And more people are losing access all the time. So we've just got to get louder and persist.
29:02We can litigate and we can protest and and and keep doing the right thing and seek higher ground for the flooding.
29:11That's right. That's right. Keep seeking higher ground.
29:16First off, I've certainly enjoyed what I've heard tonight.
29:21Rhonda, Donna, Mark, we only have a short time left, but let me respond to two or three things that I've heard here this evening.
29:33First of all, I think you heard from Donna that she managed to survive with her EDS, her tarlock cyst, her AA.
29:45And she's done it with something that I sent out in a bulletin this week.
29:53I just want to make a quick point.
29:58Infectable pain has been around for centuries.
30:02And there's some very interesting stories from past centuries about the frustrations of doctors trying to deal with this.
30:12And I just want to make the point that about the only scientific breakthrough, if you will, on infectable pain occurred about 15 years ago.
30:23And at that time, it was learned that during infectable pain or one of the big things that causes it, and we mean constant pain,
30:35is that a cell in the spinal cord of the brain called the glial cell activates.
30:42And it causes neuroinflammation and then tissue destruction.
30:50And there are many, many brain scan studies showing that receptors and tissue is really knocked out.
30:59And this knockout doesn't mean that the tissue has died.
31:05It may mean it just doesn't function.
31:08And this is why you're going to have opioids and you're going to have to have other agents to try and get through the inflammation of the glial cells
31:21and the destruction or the rendering of tissue destruction.
31:28Now, the reason why Donna has made it and the reason why you've seen me send out a bulletin this week
31:36is that in order to control pain and survive, if you have glial cell activation,
31:44the only consistent thing that you have found to keep that suppressed has been methylpredisolone or dexamethasone.
31:53Those two things.
31:55Now, it does look like Toradol does the same thing.
32:00It does act on the endorphin receptor.
32:03It causes the blood-brain barrier.
32:05And so, over time, I've now discovered that you've got typically AA or you've got severe and surgical pain,
32:18low intermittent dosages of either dexamethasone or methylpredisolone, that's bedroll,
32:26as well as intermittent low-dose use of Ketorolact should be used.
32:32Now, I point this out.
32:34We only have a couple of minutes left.
32:37This is a new concept in medical practice.
32:41You've heard of low-dose methylpredisolone.
32:44Well, for severe and infractable pain, low-dose intermittent use of one of these two corticosteroids
32:54and Ketorolact really seems to be something that needs to be done.
33:00Now, I point this out because doctors don't like to prescribe either of these drugs.
33:06I didn't use to either.
33:08And you can't take them daily.
33:10These drugs have risks.
33:12But taken on a once-a-week or twice-a-week basis, they're perfectly safe and effective.
33:18And they hold their power over many months or years.
33:23So, you'll hear much more about such things.
33:27Now, at the end of the time, I'm going to move quickly to another agent that I think is becoming almost essential
33:39in dealing with infractable pain, as well as spinal inflammatory disease and AA and paroxysm,
33:48and that is thymosine.
33:52Okay?
33:53Now, thymosine.
33:55Thymosine is both a peptide and a hormone.
34:01And it has multiple effects.
34:05And I'm going to tell you what those effects are.
34:07First off, they are a very potent suppressor of interleukin.
34:15Now, these are the interleukins that are secreted by Epstein-Barr or by the glial cells.
34:23Both.
34:24And those go under, and you'll learn some of the names.
34:27Interleukin 6 is the big one.
34:31And thymosine suppresses this.
34:36The second thing that thymosine does, it builds tissue.
34:42Okay?
34:44It's probably as good of a tissue regenerator as HCG, Anvilon, DHEA.
34:52It's quite potent.
34:54As a matter of fact, it is so potent that it is banned in the Olympics.
34:59It does grow tissue.
35:01And it's very safe.
35:04It also has pain-relieving effects.
35:08Okay?
35:09Now, today, it can be taken by itself.
35:13It can be taken as a capsule, under the tongue, injectable, or nasal.
35:18And there are several suppliers, and it's quite safe.
35:22I now am moving thymosine up to my first-line recommendation.
35:28For anybody who's got TARLOF6, intractable pain, or arachnoiditis,
35:35or Epstein-Barr reactivation, which we're going to hear an awful lot about tonight.
35:41So anyway, those are some of my recommendations for tonight.
35:44I know we're out of time.
35:45Thanks, Mark, Rhonda, Donna.
35:47It's great to hear from you.
35:50And we'll stop now.
35:52For the longest of me, Miriam and I can't figure out why you can see us but can't hear us.
35:58But we'll try to figure that out.
36:01Anyway, it's been a good session.
36:03Mark, appreciate you filling in.
36:05Donna, you always give a great story.
36:07Rhonda, thanks again.
36:08Jimmy, thank you for hosting this, as always.
36:10We'll see you next week, one way or another.
36:12Good night.
36:14Thank you so much.
36:15Good night, Dr. Tandon.
36:17We never did the prayer Dr. Ibsen asked for.
36:20Please, let's not leave before we pray for his patients.
36:23Please.
36:24You're so right, Donna.
36:27Would you want to lead us in prayer, Donna?
36:30Okay.
36:31All right.
36:32If that's okay with everyone.
36:35Yes, please.
36:36Yes, I'll be praying for you.
36:38Dear Lord, dear Lord, we gather together to ask you to please be with Dr. Ibsen's patients.
36:46Please be with Dr. Ibsen.
36:48Calm their fears.
36:50Bring peace to their souls and hearts.
36:54Remind them that you are always with them, with us, always.
37:00You never leave us nor forsake us, and you promise that.
37:04No matter how bad things look, may be, may seem, you are ultimately in charge of whatever we do.
37:14Your will be done, and we ask that your will include right now to bless, protect, and heal those patients and Dr. Ibsen himself from these issues of pain management that should never be a problem in this world.
37:36But you know how this world treated your son, so you know how human beings can be.
37:43But you are our God, you are our Father, and we trust in you.
37:49We believe that you will answer because we do love you and trust you.
37:55And we ask your protection and healing for all of us who are on this call and on this line and all of our loved ones.
38:04Help them understand the things that we're going through.
38:08Please help them understand that you know everything.
38:14You know how they feel, how we feel, and we can trust it will be okay because you are loved.
38:24So, Lord, you know how I can talk too long, talk too much, even to you.
38:31So, I'm going to close this just again pleading with you to be with us, but especially with Dr. Ibsen and his patients now and in the coming days.
38:43Please, Lord, thank you. Amen.
38:47Amen.
38:48Amen.
38:49Thank you so much.
38:52God bless you.
38:53God bless you.
38:54Amen.
38:55God bless you too.
38:56God bless you too.
38:59Amen.
39:01Never give up.
39:03Never give up.
39:05Never give up.
39:07Thank you, everybody, so much.
39:09If you don't fight, you don't win.
39:12Amen.
39:13Exactly, Norm.
39:14God is with us.
39:15God is with us.
39:17We are not alone.
39:20If you go to You're Within the Norms, you'll see we just released an article while you guys were on, and so check it out.
39:28It's about our series.
39:30This is called The DEA's Infinite Secrecy, Enter Doctors of Courage Armed with the Freedom of Information Act.
39:38Read youarewithinthenorms.com, and believe you me, hey, you know that troll that's been harassing us?
39:47He harasses me too.
39:49That's what the DEA is, intimidation, but we will not yield to intimidation.
39:53Definitely.
39:55That's right.
39:57Thank you so much.
39:59Thank you, Norm.
40:01You bet.
40:02God bless every one of you.
40:03You are not alone.
40:04God bless you.
40:06See you next week.
40:07Thanks so much.
40:08Good night.
40:09Bye, guys.
40:10Good night, everybody.
40:11Good night.
40:12Love you all.
40:14Stay alive, guys.
40:16Please stay alive.
40:18Love you.
40:19Bye-bye.
40:21Love you all.
40:22Love you all.
40:23Love you.