Do foreign workers have a place behind the woks of Malaysia's beloved hawker stalls? This episode of Life & The City tackles the hot-button topic of the Selangor government's proposed ban, a move being practised in Penang.
Hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab are joined by Malaysia Hawkers and Petty Traders Association executive advisor Datuk Lee Teong Chwee. Together, they delve into the complexities of the issue. Is barring foreign workers discriminatory? Does allowing them to cook constitute cultural appropriation? Will a ban truly safeguard the authenticity of these iconic dishes?
The Life & The City podcast series, which airs fortnightly, addresses current and social issues impacting urbanites.
It is available on www.thestar.com.my/metro and on The Star's YouTube channel (@thestaronline).
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
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Hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab are joined by Malaysia Hawkers and Petty Traders Association executive advisor Datuk Lee Teong Chwee. Together, they delve into the complexities of the issue. Is barring foreign workers discriminatory? Does allowing them to cook constitute cultural appropriation? Will a ban truly safeguard the authenticity of these iconic dishes?
The Life & The City podcast series, which airs fortnightly, addresses current and social issues impacting urbanites.
It is available on www.thestar.com.my/metro and on The Star's YouTube channel (@thestaronline).
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
SUBSCRIBE: https://cutt.ly/TheStar
LIKE: https://fb.com/TheStarOnline
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NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome everyone to another episode of Life in the City podcast with me Aida Ahmad and
00:09my co-host Farid Wahab.
00:11As usual thanks Aida for the introduction.
00:13So what interesting topic do we have today?
00:16Today we will be talking about food and who gets to cook it, particularly Malaysian food.
00:25In this case our favourite hawker dishes and I'm sure everyone knows the news that's been
00:34going on lately about Penang making a move or ban on foreign workers cooking our beloved
00:46Malaysian dishes.
00:49Maybe you would like to tell our listeners, Farid, the 13 dishes that is included in this ban.
00:58Yes, actually just to give an overview of what we're talking about today.
01:04At present there is a ban by the Penang government for foreign workers to cook 13 dishes at all
01:12hawker centres, food courts that are under the council's jurisdiction.
01:17Such as, so these dishes include nasi lemak, asam laksa, wantan mee, char kuey teow, kuey
01:23teow soup, mee sotong, curry mee, chee cheong fun, Hokkien mee, char kuey kak, pasembo,
01:29ocean and loba.
01:33But before we get into the nitty-gritty of it, our guest today is the Malaysian Hawkers
01:40and Petty Traders Association Executive Advisor, Dato Lee Teong Chwee.
01:46Welcome Dato, to our podcast.
01:48Hi, good morning everyone.
01:50Thank you for being our guest today. We really appreciate it.
01:54So this should be an interesting topic. How about, Farid, just enlighten everyone.
02:01Actually just to get our listeners up to speed, actually the Penang Island City Council has
02:06been enforcing this move since 2016, and effective January 1st next year, the City Council has
02:15said that it plans on widening the ban to include all hawker stalls, food courts and
02:20coffee shops on the island.
02:23And we also recently came across news reports, it was reported that the Selangor government
02:29is also mulling to implement a similar move next year.
02:33In fact, on July 11, Bernama reported the Selangor Local Government and Tourism Committee
02:39Chairman, Dato Ng Swee Lim, as saying that the state would consult Penang on the implementation
02:45of this policy.
02:47Dato Ng was quoted as saying that this could be difficult to enforce due to Selangor's
02:52high population, but he did say it might still be implemented if suitable.
02:59So this is why we have brought Dato here today, to help us dissect the pros and cons of this issue.
03:03Can you get us started, Aida?
03:05Yes. Dato, first of all, what is your take on Selangor mulling over this idea, emulating
03:14what Penang is doing?
03:16Actually, in Selangor, we can see that the very main famous dishes is bak kut teh, and
03:25not so many like this are traditional dishes like the tertin that Farid just mentioned.
03:31In Penang, yeah.
03:32So, it's not so much of complicating in Selangor state, and then I don't think there's a big
03:38issue on this bak kut teh issue, because normally the bak kut teh, the main cook, is done by
03:45the boss. So, the ingredients, so on, all are prepared by the boss and the owner itself.
03:53So, it's only bak kut teh, no other thing.
03:57So, personally, are you saying that you don't have an issue with foreign workers cooking
04:02bak kut teh, if they have to cook bak kut teh?
04:04They don't cook. They only do something like helping, as a helper only. They don't really
04:11cook there. There's no cooking, only preparation. Everything is done. So, the taste and so on,
04:17it wouldn't be very much different from what you are doing, the frying kuey teow, this and that.
04:24They handle nothing, only chopping and sharing soup, so on. That's all.
04:29Yeah.
04:30So, in Selangor, I don't think there's a big issue on the foreign workers involved in the
04:37bak kut teh line.
04:38Right. But Dato', this ban could have several implications, right? Many hawker stalls rely
04:47on foreign workers to fill in positions which are challenging for local staff due to the
04:54nature of the work, like we've talked about earlier, right? Many of the younger ones,
05:01they want easy, fast money, but they don't want to toil, because this sort of job, it's
05:09a lot of toiling, it's a lot of hard work.
05:10It's a long hour.
05:11Correct. Long hours, right? Would you say that the sudden ban on foreign workers could
05:19disrupt the operations of these stalls, and then affect their ability to serve the customers
05:24and maintain their businesses?
05:27Obviously, if they ban on these foreign workers, it will definitely affect the industry.
05:33Yeah.
05:34Because we rely mainly on these workers to help in the front line also, not only as a
05:42kitchen helper. And then nowadays, you find the very traditional operators, you find less
05:56and less, only the youngsters who take over the father or the grandfather's position now.
06:03Correct.
06:05Yeah. And a lot of the hawker stall owners, right, the parents or grandparents don't have
06:15their offspring or grandchildren to continue the business. So, they're at a dilemma, how
06:19am I going to continue this business if my children and grandchildren don't want to
06:25carry the torch, right? So, they have to rely on foreign workers.
06:31Even then, if the grandchildren carry on this business, they have their own thinking and
06:39all the new patterns of doing that. Many ways of like, some Chinese food already they mix
06:47with Western food, to go something new, they want something new. And all the drinks also,
06:53you can see all the fancy, fancy drinks and this and that, you see. So, this is just maybe
07:01in the years to come, it's going to be the choice is like that.
07:06So, you're saying it could be a growing trend where people reinvent the recipes to try to
07:13attract more customers.
07:14Simple example is coffee. Now, you can see the coffee, so many tastes, so many kinds of tastes.
07:19Right.
07:20Coffee, pink this and that, all the mix. Now, also got the Milo and the Nescafe mix and this
07:25and that. All changed, everything is changed now.
07:30Datuk, there have been concerns that if this policy comes into practice or is enforced next
07:40year, it might increase the cost for F&B operators. Do you think that's the case? Do you think that
07:47will be the case?
07:48I don't think so, because the price will derive from demand and supply. If your food is good,
07:55tasty, and the price is reasonable, the public are willing to queue a long time,
08:01and to wait, and to pay you a little bit extra, they're willing to pay.
08:06And not the price matter that you get less customers, no. People drive all the way,
08:12one hour, two hours, 30 minutes, looking for parking, just to go in your restaurant because
08:19they want your good food.
08:21So, you're saying it's more about the quality of the food, not really who makes the food.
08:24No, who makes.
08:25Okay. But Datuk, if they ban the foreign workers, right, then we would have to rely on
08:31local staff, and local staff would want a higher wage, right? So, then there's the
08:39issue of recruitment and training costs that could also arise as the business owners invest
08:48in this, to bring new employees up to speed. Would you agree to that?
08:53I don't agree. Anybody can just step in and learn and carry on the work.
08:59I see. What about, given these factors, if the ban takes place, many F&B operators
09:11might need to raise prices to cover the increased expenses,
09:16in terms of probably paying more to local workers?
09:20I don't think so. That's what I mentioned earlier, if the food is not good,
09:25you sell cheaper also, nobody will come in. Not the price matter, that matters, I think.
09:32Okay, that's an interesting thing, because coming in, I thought that you'd probably say,
09:38they would probably increase the price because they have to pay more.
09:40No, no, no.
09:41Okay. So, you're saying that if your food is good, then you're going to get your...
09:45Public will pay a little bit, willing to pay a little bit higher, more. That is fair.
09:51Okay, anyway, but if you can shift the conversation a little bit,
09:54maybe Datuk can tell us a little bit, how have the public or how have the stakeholders
10:00responded to this news?
10:02Actually, you see, we can see, obviously, since 2016, the Penang
10:08Local Council, they have already practised this, they're trying to ban and so on, until today.
10:14We find that the food industry in Penang, still going well, going on, the same as 2016.
10:26We don't find any side effect on this and that.
10:29So, there has been no hiccup at all?
10:30No, there's no difference.
10:32Okay. Because I actually, in the course of doing this research for this topic,
10:37I came across a number of online chat groups, like Low Yard, Reddit. So,
10:43of course, some of them were making fun of it. They said, okay, so this ban is only going to
10:49apply to those from the low-income countries and not the masalih. So, I came across that kind of
10:54snarky comments. So, I was just wondering, how have the stakeholders in the industry
10:58been responding to it?
11:01But in your opinion, Datuk, it's business as usual?
11:04It will be usual.
11:06Perhaps there would be a minor hiccups in the beginning, when people are adjusting.
11:11I think, I think.
11:13The other issue in this ban, Datuk, is this will only affect the small players in the hawker
11:21stalls, kerai makanan, not so much the restaurants. Do you think this is fair?
11:29This is not fair. Because when you ban, that means you ban on all illegal foreign workers.
11:36So, it leaves room for large businesses to be unaffected, right? While it will affect the
11:48small players.
11:48It's probably quite true. It's quite true.
11:52Most of the restaurants often rely heavily on foreign workers due to the higher budgets and
11:59fewer resources. Am I correct?
12:01Most of the restaurants, not hawkers, they rely heavily on foreign workers due to the
12:07tighter budgets and fewer resources.
12:09Yes, I think they're employed. But normally, we don't see how many of them are in the front
12:14line, because they are inside the kitchen, and not at the roadside stall that you can
12:19see who are there.
12:23Datuk, let's talk a little bit about the cultural significance of these 13 dishes that I mentioned
12:29earlier. I think I mentioned a handful of Chinese dishes here, which I myself probably
12:37have not eaten. Maybe you can tell us, Datuk, why are these dishes so culturally significant
12:42to the Chinese community?
12:44Actually, these 13 dishes, we can rarely find them in Penang, and also in the whole of the
12:53peninsula, also East Malaysia. They all have their own style of cooking, and the northern
13:02people and the southern citizens also, they have that different taste.
13:06So, these 13 dishes mostly are more Hokkien taste. And then, another factor that people
13:17like, because they are very cheap. Cheap and nice.
13:21In Penang, it's still cheaper, yes.
13:22Cheaper and nice.
13:23Oh, really? In Penang, they are cheaper? I did not know that.
13:26Yes, it is cheaper than in Klang Valley.
13:27They are cheaper. So, public is like that. When they see a crowd in the hawker centre,
13:34they will go in.
13:35That's right.
13:35When you see nobody, you don't want to walk in. You see a crowd, there will be more crowd.
13:40When you queue, you will queue the stall that more people queue, and not the empty one.
13:46That is a natural response of the public.
13:49Yeah. So, Dato, what do you think about
13:59being instrumental of having a native cook or chef to preserve the authenticity of a dish?
14:07What do you think about that? In terms of the 13 dishes,
14:12right? You have, for example, wantan mee or char kway teow.
14:20The move to ensure it is a Malaysian who's cooking it, what do you think about that?
14:26Do you think it will severely alter the flavour and taste if it's a foreign cook who does it?
14:32No. Actually, the main ingredients they brought into the stall are done by the operator,
14:40by the boss, not the foreign workers. So, the quality and the grade of the ingredient that
14:48brought in is by the boss, and then it depends on what grade you're using, like soy sauce,
14:56there are so many grades, A, B, C, D, E. So, if you get the cheapest sauce, it's not going to be
15:02a very good result in cooking. Like mee, and the other ingredients also, all is done by the
15:11operator. So, the foreign workers, they got nothing much about this, handling all these
15:16food ingredients. That's why the taste and so on is decided by the boss.
15:23So, you're saying that essentially the taste is going to be affected by what ingredients you use,
15:28which are chosen by the operator, and the foreign chef simply puts them together in the pot.
15:36I think one of the great concerns that was raised in support of this proposal was that
15:44they wanted to, or at least the authorities thought that it would preserve the authenticity
15:48of the dish, but my concern is that we are gatekeeping the definition of authenticity.
15:56Because one of the 13 dishes is actually nasi lemak, which is a very famous Malay dish, but
16:03I think my aunt and my mom, two Malays, even they themselves don't make nasi lemak the same way.
16:10So, no two Malays make nasi lemak the same way. So, if you're going to say that we want
16:14to preserve authenticity, then the concern becomes how do you define authentic.
16:19Correct. Like what we mentioned earlier, Dato', not only Malays cook nasi lemak,
16:23Chinese cook nasi lemak, Indians as well cook nasi lemak.
16:26And there's also one, the thing that Dato' mentioned earlier is that when it comes to
16:32recipe, dishes, menu, they do evolve over time. So, if we gatekeep authenticity,
16:38then we're going to prevent ourselves from evolving our taste buds.
16:43Correct. And if we try to understand the cultural context of this, Dato', let's say
16:51we have a Malaysian native cook, right, cooking all these dishes. Now, they will have a deep
16:58understanding of the cultural and historical context behind the dish, right? Could be an heirloom
17:05recipe from their ancestors and it's being carried down, right? And they may have grown up eating
17:14and cooking these dishes for a long time. And they learn the traditional techniques
17:18from family or community, right, to maintain the flavour. So, there's familiarity, right?
17:25Now, if it's a non-native cook cooking these dishes, and if they immerse themselves
17:33in studying the traditional recipes and respect the origins of a dish,
17:38they can also achieve the same standard of flavours, don't you think?
17:42I don't think so. Because normally, the main course of this recipe is ingredient
17:50and experience. And then, from where you learn, you must try to do it yourself
17:57and to find out the taste of the customer. Because each individual, like in the northern part
18:08and the southern part, they are all different tastes. You have to study the taste of the
18:13customer, what they like, what they want. And then, it's not easy to cook a good dish.
18:20Yeah, that's true.
18:21It's not easy.
18:23Sorry to chime in. So, you have really stressed on the importance of the ingredients as being
18:28the main reason behind the taste. But what about the methods of preparation? Because there have
18:37been concerns that foreigners tend to prepare food differently. I don't know what they mean by that,
18:43but they did say, you know, foreigners might prepare food differently and it might affect
18:47the taste. Even in the Malay culture, we have this term called ayatangan, which is taken to mean,
18:55the taste of the food can be different depending on who prepares it. Where do you stand
19:02on this matter?
19:03Actually, it's equally important, not only the ingredients, and the timing, cooking, and
19:16process also takes an important, timing is very important. Like you do a fried keteow,
19:21it can be overcooked or it can be less cooked.
19:25You fry it in a fast, and the different quality is also different.
19:30Variation in cooking techniques.
19:31Yeah, that's also important. That's why you see, when we say, like this old grandmother,
19:39old grandfather, the way they're cooking is different. They prefer like charcoal cooking,
19:45they prefer like the wood fire, so on, you see. And now we come to,
19:51I would really come to this gas cooking, all different, it's all different.
19:58I think that brings back to our earlier point about how cooking evolves over time,
20:03but that is not dependent on a person's nationality, I don't think.
20:08It's all experience, experience, and then they might try themselves,
20:11and they see the response, the comments of the customer is very important.
20:14Because at the end of the day, your customers are your customers,
20:18they're the one who's eating the food.
20:19Yeah, the comment is, yeah.
20:22We actually would like to shift this discussion over to the broader social concern of this policy.
20:29Datuk, do you think it can be considered cultural appropriation to have someone outside of that
20:37cultural group to cook the dish belonging to that group?
20:40I don't think so. Cooking, this line is open to everybody, all races.
20:48All races. Not to say from which country, from Africa or here and there, no, it's the same.
20:56Everybody can cook. It's the matter of the one who tastes it, the one who eats it, they accept or not.
21:06Cooking is everybody, everybody can do the cooking.
21:11Like I shared earlier, before we started the podcast, Datuk, I shared with you about the story
21:16of the Sri Lankan baker in France, who was bestowed an award for baking the best baguette
21:25in the country. Sri Lankan baker, right? And he won that award and his baguettes are being consumed
21:33by the president, right? So it's a significant accolade and it boils down to what we're
21:42discussing. It shouldn't be banning a person, a cook, a talented cook of a different background,
21:52different race, from cooking a dish from his non-native country, right?
21:59I think I came across this debate online, people were talking about cultural appropriation,
22:08but someone raised this point, a netizen raised this point, and they said,
22:11is it cultural appropriation or cultural appreciation? Because they said that,
22:16wouldn't you be proud to see, you know, say, some random Masaleh cooking your food?
22:21The nasi lemak.
22:22Yeah, yeah. So imagine seeing this on your national TV, you know,
22:27maybe the Great British Bake Off or whatever, someone cooks nasi lemak,
22:31and then wouldn't that make you proud to know that, oh, someone actually borders
22:35to learn about my culture?
22:37As long as there is respect in preserving the ingredients that goes into making this
22:45dish, I don't see it as a problem.
22:46Basically, give us credit.
22:50We should appreciate, and then we should be happy to see Japanese cooking nasi lemak.
22:56And then the Malaysian in Japan, in Japan, Ginza there also, you can see the Asian food store,
23:03hawker stall, all like Malaysian are doing, still acceptable by the local Japanese.
23:11So even a Japanese cook, or a Chinese cook, or a Malay cook, it doesn't matter.
23:19Yeah. So when Selangor said that it will mull over the proposed ban,
23:30right, of foreign cooks at hawker stalls,
23:36the state hasn't said if it will affect only those at venues managed by local authorities,
23:42or every single stall in the state.
23:45What is our take on this, Farid?
23:48Yeah, I think when I first read the news, I was a bit, I wanted more details,
23:55because we know that this has been enforced in Penang for quite some time,
23:58but only at food courts, at venues operated by the Penang Island City Council.
24:05So when Selangor announced that it is Maling doing the same thing,
24:10my mind was thinking, okay, are you going to do it only at venues that are operated by local councils,
24:16or are you going to enforce this statewide?
24:19So that was my concern. I wanted to get more details. How about you, Datuk?
24:23Yeah, what you say is correct. Because when you come to Selangor, it's the whole state,
24:31there are so many kampung style cooking, kampung style, further from the Klang state, the Klang
24:41Badaraya. So I think what you mentioned is correct. Because when you come to the state,
24:48there are so many kampung, kampung operators, so many kampung.
24:56I would like to play a bit of a devil's advocate, if that's okay.
25:00Let's switch the role a little bit. You can chime in, Datuk can chime in.
25:05Should Malaysian chefs be allowed to cook foods from other cultures? I mean,
25:09if we're not allowing foreigners to cook our food, should we then allow Malaysians to cook
25:14foods from other cultures, or work in establishments where they are required
25:17to cook foods from other cultures? What do you think, Datuk?
25:22That's what we say, this cooking line is,
25:26everybody can cook, I can cook your style, you can cook my style.
25:30We might cook it better.
25:32The other nation, they also appreciate eating our Malaysian food. We also like to eat their food
25:38also. It's a matter of whether you like or don't like, that's all. If you like, you eat more,
25:44if you don't like, you eat less, that's all. There's no something like you cannot cook,
25:49I cannot cook, no, I don't think so. It's a universal style of this interaction.
26:00It shouldn't be a case where if I wanted to cook, and I cook, Datuk, if I wanted to cook,
26:07Sanghami, then should I be nervous and scared that Chinese community might feel strongly about
26:16a non-Chinese cooking Sanghami, whereas if you, Datuk, let's say, you want to cook
26:21chicken varuval, you might make a fantastic varuval, right? So I think we're on the same page
26:29in this sense, correct?
26:31Yes. You know, I want to chime in a little bit with a personal story. In 2014, I went to Rome,
26:38Italy. I think I was around the Travis Fountain area, and I was very excited about trying the
26:43pasta. I was like, wow, this is Italy, this is where pasta was born, or at least so I thought.
26:48And then I went into this restaurant, I paid 10 euros for a pasta, and it was, no offence if any
26:53Italian is watching this, but I was a bit underwhelmed by what I had, and I kept thinking,
26:58after I came back from that place, I video-called my mum, I said, look mum, I think your pasta is
27:05better than this pasta. I don't know, maybe because it's my Malay tongue.
27:10You're right, you're right, Farid. This is all because of what sort of cheese they're using,
27:15maybe this is very heavy taste, very... Not suited to our palate, yeah.
27:20Just like, similarly like our Pizza Hut also, when they first came in Malaysia,
27:25we cannot tahan also, about 20, 30 years back. But now today, they are already Malaysian style.
27:32Correct. To suit the local palate, yeah.
27:35Local taste, you see. So it's totally different. Maybe you go back to America or somewhere else,
27:41to go in Pizza Hut, it's all different. Yeah, that's right.
27:45Even like McDonald's, the same, you go... Different countries, different, yeah.
27:49All different, yeah. I also feel like food can be a uniting factor or whatever.
27:54It is, yeah. When I was studying, my housemate was a Chinese,
27:58and he recommended to me, because we took turns to cook, and he said, let's try to cook rendang.
28:04And this is coming from a Chinese guy, asking a Malay guy to cook rendang. So we cook it together,
28:08so needless to say, we failed spectacularly. It didn't become rendang, it became something else,
28:13but the point is, we tried, we tried together. It didn't matter that rendang is traditionally
28:18a Malay food, you know, but I tried it with my Chinese friend, and then we tried it again,
28:22and then it worked. So you see, what I feel is that, cooking is just like singing a song,
28:30you see. This is universal. Everybody can sing a song everywhere. Anybody's song you can sing.
28:35Cooking is also the same. You can cook anything you like. You can eat anything you like.
28:40Wherever you go, you try the local dishes. That's where you enjoy from travelling, you see.
28:47Yeah. And I think another important thing that we need to consider, or the state of
28:54Malaysia needs to consider, is that if this ban on foreign cooks is perceived as a way to exclude
29:02foreigners, right, especially those from low-income countries, or specific racial ethnic groups,
29:09it will be seen as discriminatory, which is not a good thing, right? It might be,
29:14the ban might be disproportionately affect certain groups of people, right? And then we'll
29:21be accused of xenophobia. Yeah, I totally agree what you say. So it's not fair, it's not fair.
29:29After all, the more important is that we can make, like local hawker stall,
29:38any operator also handling, they must go for typhoid injection, they must go for food handling
29:44course, so on. So why not we put a compulsory that this foreign worker also must follow what,
29:50they must go for the same thing, typhoid and this food handling courses, so on, you see.
29:56Better regulation is what you say.
29:57Make them compulsory must attend these courses. So at least to upgrade their standard of hygiene,
30:06so on, you see.
30:06Currently, is this being practiced, Datuk, the requirements for typhoid?
30:12Only for the locals.
30:13Only for the locals. How about the foreign workers?
30:15Foreign workers, they come in for MIMA examination, that's all. It's a general health examination.
30:23At present, food F&B operators are allowed, are they allowed to hire foreign workers? I assume
30:28they are, right?
30:30I don't, this issue also I, hard to comment, you see, because they are always playing hide and
30:36seek game like that. So, yeah.
30:42Datuk, it was reported that Selangor will consult the Penang government on this issue. Do you think
30:48that there is, in Selangor, that there is the same urgency as Penang to implement this move?
30:55That's what I mentioned earlier. It's totally a different way of cooking, the public food,
31:03like hawker stall and so on. Penang is Penang style, Selangor is Selangor style. So, I don't
31:09think it's necessary to learn from Penang. You can study your own concept, have your own campaign
31:17and so on. But what I would urge that the Selangor government try to get the people, related field,
31:27to come to a seminar, to discuss, to go further, what they are going to do. It's good to consult
31:35these people, local people.
31:36Correct.
31:37So, related field, the persatuan so on. That is the way.
31:43Also, there was a report by The Star, recently, where the Malaysian Indian Restaurant Owners'
31:52Association, PRIMAS, Deputy President Mr C Krishnan said, the Home Ministry in issuing
32:00permits to hire cooks in kedai makanan, which means restaurants. Now there is no provision
32:07for foreign workers to work in any capacity at hawker stalls. So, there needs to be clarification
32:14by the state government to avoid any confusion. Would you agree, Datuk?
32:19This one also, I think it must be clarified.
32:23Yes. Before we end the podcast, we can discuss measures taken in other countries to safeguard
32:33their authenticity in their local dishes.
32:37I took the liberty of doing some basic Google searches, just to find out around the world,
32:44what have other countries been doing? Have they had similar measures? And I came across a number
32:49of interesting facts here, if I can read them out for our listeners. So, in Japan, apparently,
32:54there has been emphasis on preserving traditional Japanese culinary arts, especially sushi.
33:01While there isn't an outright ban on foreign sushi chefs, but there are strict regulations
33:07for those working in traditional sushi restaurants. So, many high-end establishments
33:12apparently prefer to hire chefs who have undergone rigorous training, often within Japan,
33:18to uphold the standards of Japanese cuisine. So, there's no ban, but you have to have it.
33:23Very high standards.
33:23Very high standards. And apparently in Thailand, the government has implemented this thing called
33:29the Global Thai Programme, which includes certifying Thai restaurants around the world
33:35that meet specific standards. So, it doesn't ban foreign workers, but it does promote the hiring
33:40of Thai chefs and the use of Thai ingredients to maintain the integrity of Thai cuisines.
33:47And in South Korea, kimchi. Apparently, kimchi is a national dish there, and its production
33:53is heavily regulated to ensure authenticity. So, the South Korean government has implemented
33:59measures to protect the traditional methods of kimchi making in light of competition of
34:04mass-produced versions from abroad. So, they don't ban foreign workers, but they do place
34:10heavy significance on the importance of kimchi and efforts to preserve the traditional methods
34:16of preparing kimchi. So, yeah, it looks like around the world, governments are taking measures
34:22to somehow, you know, regulate the production or the cooking of certain cultural dishes.
34:28So, it's not exactly new, but, you know, I feel like Malaysia is going a little bit,
34:34it's taking a stronger measure by saying, by putting in an outright ban, I think.
34:40Which is not necessarily the smartest decision.
34:46Yeah, I guess it really depends on the details that the Selangor government will come up with.
34:55Dato', maybe you can chime in on what do you think are some of the issues that require the
35:05attention of the state government when it comes to hawkers and foreign workers, like
35:14licensing, cleanliness, etc?
35:18I don't think it's a good move to ban, 100%. That's what Farid just mentioned. There are
35:24ways and means that we can solve to promote these traditional dishes. So, there's no point
35:33to ban, and then enforcement, and then everybody not feeling comfortable. So, you can see since
35:422016, from that time to today, eight years back, the same thing. In Penang, you can see
35:50everything is going well. So, I hope, I urge that the local authority of Penang will take a step
35:58back. At least you'll come up with something, a better way to solve this problem.
36:04Correct. And like we've established already, Selangor has a diverse population and economy,
36:13and probably the approach should be more emphasis on inclusivity and economic pragmatism, right?
36:24Yeah. I think, I mean, I'm not an expert, I'm not an industry player like Dato, but having been a
36:30journalist with Star Metro that covers local issues, local governance issues, I'm not entirely
36:38sure how this would be enforced, given the piles of concerns we already have about hawker stalls,
36:44like licensing, roadside trading, cleanliness. So, even now, the local authorities are grappling
36:51or struggling to rein in all these things. So, now we're going to add another layer to that.
36:58But I would say that, I do agree with Dato in saying that, yes, we probably can't ban them,
37:05but better regulation, better health checks would ensure cleanliness. And if I'm not mistaken,
37:12didn't the Selangor government earlier this year or last year, if I need to check again,
37:16require all food handlers to wear face masks, even that is not being practised widely, I think.
37:23So, now you're going to add another thing into the picture, and I think that's going to be a lot
37:29of things, you know. Anything else you want to add, Aida?
37:34Well, any parting words?
37:35You see, something is interesting. Nowadays, you can see these foreign workers, those doing the
37:42handling in the frontline, they wear masks because they don't want people to know where
37:47they're from.
37:49Really?
37:49Yes, it's quite interesting. You wear a mask, so you don't know who are there.
37:58Something interesting.
38:00I think, I was having dinner at a restaurant a few days ago, and this is about cleanliness,
38:08and one of the waiters was putting my food on the table, and he smelled, and that put me off
38:19temporarily, luckily only temporarily.
38:22Hygiene.
38:23Hygiene, hygiene and cleanliness are my issue.
38:27Most important is, it is the personal, the foreign worker, is not all are no good, only certain
38:37people, they are all on their disciplinary action. Even then, you see, I had an occasion in, I
38:47makan this buffet in a four-star hotel. So, normally they will fry the meat in front of us,
38:56so just simply find one foreign worker, they fry. When you need to put some soup to add on the
39:03frying, now this boy, this man, just simply from the washing water in front, the washing kuali,
39:11from there he take and put in. You see, four-star. You cannot say the four-star, sometimes some of
39:19them also, the soup is behind there, so it will take him a bit from there to take the soup, and
39:26then he simply just take the, for cleaning purpose, the water, just to cook. So, I'm in front of him,
39:35so what do you say? It doesn't mean that the four-star or something, they are always good,
39:39but it's not the problem of the management, it's the individual, it's the individual.
39:45This is where things like proper cost and all that comes in handy.
39:51Well, thank you for being on our show, Datuk. Really appreciate your insights and your expertise
39:57on the matter. Please join us next time on our next episode of Life in the City podcast.
40:03Our episodes can be viewed on www.thestar.com.my or youtube.
40:09Okay, now go and get your lunch, or dinner, or breakfast, depending on which time you're
40:13viewing this. Thank you, Datuk.