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00:00Hey everybody, welcome to The Process.
00:10I'm Justin Halpern.
00:12And I'm Pat Schumacher.
00:13We're in the same room, but we're on different Zooms.
00:16We're the co-showrunners and executive producers of Abbott Elementary, and we're really excited
00:21to talk to our Emmy-nominated casting director, Wendy O'Brien.
00:27Hey, Wendy.
00:28Hi, guys.
00:30So, I thought maybe you could sort of talk at first about how you came to be a part of
00:37this team.
00:38What a gift for me.
00:41Well, I initially got the call from Warner Brothers about the show under a different
00:51title and read the script, and then I got to meet with you all.
00:56We talked a bit about the creative process and how we will go about solving our casting
01:02needs, and then kind of jumped in, and away we went in an unchartered time of Zooms and
01:10a pandemic and trying to figure out how to cast not in person whatsoever and have chemistry
01:17with people that had to spend all day together via Zoom.
01:22It was a pretty wild first for, I think, most of us.
01:26Yeah.
01:27I mean, had you cast a mockumentary before this?
01:30Yes, a couple sort of later versions of this, yes.
01:35And I wonder, too, because on our side, so much of a mockumentary is sort of getting
01:42that kind of slice-of-life feel where actors are kind of maybe not so much improvising
01:49all that much, but the ability for dialogue to overlap and all that chemistry, it almost
01:54is more important in a mockumentary.
01:58And can you talk about sort of how, what the sort of challenge was during the pandemic
02:03to find that chemistry when no one was actually ever meeting anybody in person?
02:08Yeah, it was super challenging, I think, to have the essence come across and also how
02:19to deliver on a self-tape the sort of spontaneity of an improv scene or even the talking to
02:28the camera, which for a lot of people really worked well by the nature of the Zoom.
02:34So I think the fact that they could sort of lock into the barrel and do it at their computer
02:39in that portion either worked or terribly didn't work for some actors.
02:46And I think you guys also had the brilliant idea of having everyone, we had everybody
02:51sort of tape, like, what have they been up to during quarantine?
02:55And do you remember Chris Perfetti's, his, he was, so he was in a hotel room, I think
02:59it was in Atlanta.
03:01And so his, his, what has he been doing?
03:03He's like, I'll show you what I've been doing.
03:04And he was running down the hallway of the hotel.
03:07And then he was just doing belly flops onto his hotel bed.
03:10Do you remember that?
03:11I don't remember that.
03:13Oh my gosh.
03:14I watched it like 20 times.
03:16It was so funny.
03:17I just can't believe that children are smoking ragweed.
03:20I know, don't they know that smoking kills?
03:23Jacob, you literally vape.
03:25Okay, that's different.
03:26Yes, and that it's worse because you can vape anywhere.
03:29You vape all through salt burn.
03:31You're inhaling thousands of toxins.
03:33You're going to feel so much better when you just let it go.
03:36Let it go.
03:37Jacob, there you go.
03:38Okay, I'm so happy.
03:39Jacob!
03:40Jacob!
03:41Jacob!
03:42Jacob!
03:43Jacob!
03:44Oh my God!
03:45Get him out!
03:46Stop!
03:47Get him out!
03:48Oh my God!
03:49No!
03:50No!
03:51Jacob!
03:52Give it to me!
03:53Well, I think that's actually a good sort of segue because, you know, Chris was not
03:58an actor who had a bunch of comedy on his resume.
04:02And now, having worked with him for the last, you know, 40 years, he is such a skilled,
04:09like comedic technician.
04:11Was there anything, and I think specifically Chris, right, Pat, was like one that kind
04:15of you brought to our attention that really none of us had heard of.
04:20Yeah, I mean, for Justin and myself, I mean, obviously like the cast that is surrounding
04:25Quentin in the show, I think it's made up of actors who, at least to us, were like very
04:31known quantities.
04:32And then there were people like Chris and like Janelle who came in, we had never seen
04:38them before, and we, you know, we immediately, I think it was kind of unanimous with both
04:44of those roles that we were like, oh, that's the person, but also, you know, is the studio
04:50or is the network going to want to stunt cast these roles?
04:53But oh my God, they embody these characters so much.
04:57I don't know if you can talk a little bit about, you know, finding people like Chris
05:02and Janelle who were maybe a little bit unexpected, I suppose, like they wouldn't be like your
05:07immediate choice, but were a clear choice once they came in, if you could talk about
05:14finding them.
05:15Sure.
05:16Well, I mean, Chris, he was on Next Caller, Please, that short-lived series, Stephen Falks.
05:23And so I knew I had worked on the pilot of that, but I didn't cast Chris, he was cast
05:28out of New York.
05:29So I knew of him, but really it was just going through, we had so many wonderful reads for
05:35that role.
05:36I mean, it was an embarrassment of riches really.
05:39And I think partially for me anyways, his telling us what he was up to was so special.
05:46And then his read, it was so simple, but so complex.
05:52You know, it appeared so easy and he didn't push the comedy, but yet he was just so funny.
06:01So I think his was just going through tape after tape was just a standout.
06:06And I think when he went to you guys as the condensed versions, I think he jumped out
06:11as well, like out of the gate.
06:13Then Janelle was, because she, it took a while to get her tape in and actually, you know,
06:19she gave kudos to her agent who kept, you know, Janelle, Janelle, you got to tape,
06:23you got to tape, you got to tape.
06:24And so it, she came in sort of a little bit later.
06:28Can I help you with something?
06:30Well, it depends.
06:33All these rules are so hard and rigid.
06:40Well, here's a rule.
06:44Put your arms away, Jeremy Allen Black.
06:47This is a school.
06:49It felt like seeing Steve Carell for the first time on The Office.
06:52It felt so original and it felt like it was written for her.
06:59And then I had this moment of what if nobody sees this?
07:02Like what if I'm alone and nobody, I'm the only one who sees this moment.
07:08I'll be so sad.
07:10Well, that actually, you know, I never asked you how you felt about this, but, you know,
07:15Janelle was the old, normally when you take a, when you're casting a role for a pilot,
07:19you take three people to the network in the studio and you say, Hey, these are the three
07:24people I'm considering.
07:26And you do that for a couple of reasons.
07:27You want to give the studio network, you want them to see the other people and how they're
07:31interpreting the role.
07:32But you know, you also do that because if you just take the person you want to get the
07:37role of the most, it puts a lot of pressure on them and the network, sometimes it can
07:42sink them.
07:43And so with Janelle, she wasn't a name that the network knew.
07:49And she didn't have a lot of acting credits, but we all loved her so much.
07:54She was so perfect.
07:56We all saw exactly what you saw.
07:57Like this woman is like explosively funny that we just took her to the network.
08:04And I remember Pat and me and Quinta and Randall being like, this is it.
08:09We should just take her.
08:11But it was a huge risk.
08:12And I don't know.
08:13I can't remember if we talked to you about how you felt, but like, what were your feelings?
08:16I'm just taking Janelle to the network and no one else.
08:19Yeah, I think it was a, I, again, I think she was so undeniable representing anyone
08:25else would have been unfair.
08:26Yeah.
08:27Did we?
08:28I don't think we really, I think we did that with almost every role.
08:32We ended up doing that with almost every one of these cast members.
08:35I also wonder if you could just talk, I mean, Pat and I have gotten to work with Quinta
08:39for a long time now.
08:42And I think like one of her superpowers is casting.
08:45I feel like she has such an insane, innate ability to like understand what a performer
08:52just is the character versus like putting it on and how they'll connect.
08:58And can you talk a little bit about your sort of conversations with Quinta about casting
09:03as a whole?
09:04Definitely.
09:05Definitely.
09:06I mean, she has very specific ideas in her mind, but yet she asks for feedback.
09:15She asked for input and it's a dialogue.
09:19And you know, most of the time we come back to the exact place we started and it all makes
09:23perfect sense.
09:24And so I find it a very collaborative and incredibly satisfying, especially because
09:30we're not in the same building and in this time of Zoom, it's so easy to not have conversations.
09:37Things seem to take longer to cast now than they used to when you're in the room.
09:41So it's really, it's a really motivating process.
09:47So I think like season three, last season, we had probably the most super famous people
09:55you've ever had on the show, which is for anyone who is, has ever cast a show and has
10:02tried to get a very famous person to be in your show.
10:06It is a giant pain in the ass.
10:08Can you talk about just like whenever you get that sort of email from us being like,
10:14hey, we're looking at X super huge movie star.
10:18Are you like, oh no, I'm going to be chasing this person down for a really long time.
10:23Or is that like, what's that process like of some of the guest star stuff we did in
10:27season three?
10:28Well, I have to say, if you would have said season one, I would have said, oh no.
10:32And season two, I would have been like, okay, season three.
10:35I mean, I felt like I was getting more incoming calls than outgoing.
10:39I mean, I've had some amazing people pitched that would love to be on the show.
10:45I mean, they have, you know, you guys have super fans.
10:48So, so, you know, I think some of the names we talked about, we all kind of knew may be
10:54tougher than others for other reasons, but I think anybody who's seen the show is a fan.
11:01And so I wasn't as intimidated this year at all, or last season, because it, the odds
11:09are you're probably going to get them now.
11:11For show and tell, I brought a famous person I saw outside.
11:16Come on in.
11:17Hi, I'm Bradley Cooper.
11:19What?
11:20You are Bradley Cooper.
11:21Why are you Bradley Cooper?
11:22Why are you here?
11:23Well, whenever I'm in Philly, you know, the deli across the street, that's my first stop.
11:28My dad used to always take me there.
11:29They're the best hoagies in the city.
11:30Everybody wanted to take a picture with him.
11:31So I figured he was famous.
11:32Yeah, you bet he is.
11:36I'm just texting the other teachers, not Pat.
11:38That's okay.
11:39Well, maybe we can talk just for a second, like on the flip side, like of fame, let's
11:44say it's about like discovering new people, and especially like, in this show, which does
11:50have a large amount of child actors.
11:54I'd love to hear a little bit about how you approach finding kids for the show, because
12:01I think that we have a super, super strong roster of child actors.
12:07You know, it's always something that like us as writers, as producers are a little bit
12:11like leery coming into, you know, kids can sometimes be a little bit unpredictable.
12:15And I think we've been really blessed with a super strong group of kid actors that you
12:21and your team have brought in.
12:23So maybe you could speak to like how you approach casting kids on the show.
12:27Sure.
12:28And I'm going to pass the ball to you after, because I have some questions about that too,
12:32once you get them.
12:33But I mean, we read a lot of kids, like for each role, we read, you know, depending up
12:40to 25, 30 kids a role and kind of figure out, or we'll have them read a role and then move
12:48them to a different role, you know, because we, they're all sort of pre-reads and then
12:55we figure out where they organically fit more, you know, their essence or their, their, some
13:03kids that are a little more outgoing and some that are shy or how they present on camera,
13:08but still just as talented.
13:10And so we sort of, we try and keep a tally of like what kids were maybe not right for
13:14that specific role.
13:15And we'll reread them down the road, a couple of kids I've read, you know, multiple times
13:20for many different roles and we're just finding the right fit for them because they're good.
13:24They just haven't been that role yet.
13:29And then I think it's, it's just trying to find the kids that seem the most natural and
13:34kid-like.
13:35And sometimes they're the ones that are doing the weirdest things, but it feels just organically
13:41honest and not rehearsed or coached, or it just feels like they're being kids.
13:48I just remember one kid the whole time was like playing with their, and you know, stuff
13:52like that.
13:53It's just fun because they're just, they're kids.
13:56So I think that's our biggest weeding tool is just who's natural and happy to be there.
14:03I'm glad you're getting the recognition that you so deserve because casting kids is really,
14:10really difficult.
14:13Having done a couple shows with kids before to find natural kids like that haven't gone
14:18through the like Nickelodeon, Disney, sausage machine, making machine, that everything,
14:24they always feel like, Pat and I always joke that those kind of kids always feel like they're
14:28hosting a prank show.
14:29They're like, Hey, what's going on?
14:32And it's, you can't get like a real moment out of them because they have been like polished
14:37within an inch of their life.
14:39So it's interesting to hear how many you have to watch read before you find the ones that
14:45are really work and how many you keep in your head that maybe you didn't cast for one role,
14:52but you are casting for the other.
14:55I also wanted to know just in terms of, you know, the mockumentary format, if there is
15:04anything that you specifically look for when casting a mockumentary that is something you
15:11maybe don't consider at all, if you're casting any other format.
15:18I think the biggest one for me anyways, is just the not winking at the camera.
15:23It's sort of similar to the kids, but it's, it's not hitting the joke or not hitting it
15:27as hard.
15:28And it seems it's just a subtler version of some of the comedy that we do.
15:36So again, it's, it's not, it's not winking at the jokes.
15:40And then, you know, we, not a lot of our auditions have the, to camera portion, the talking head
15:45portion.
15:46So we don't, that's not often part of the evaluation unless it's specifically in the
15:51script.
15:53So we generally don't have to assess that portion, which I think can be challenging
16:00for a lot of comedic actors, for sure.
16:04I loved you in The Holdovers.
16:06It was just so heartwarming.
16:09It's The Hangover and No It's Not.
16:10Guys, he's literally in a critically acclaimed film right now.
16:13Oppenheimer.
16:14Is that the one about Napoleon?
16:15I don't think so.
16:16I'm not in Oppenheimer.
16:18Are you sure?
16:19Everybody was in Oppenheimer.
16:20Yeah.
16:21Why are there cameras here?
16:23It's a long story, Brad, Bradley.
16:26But hey, since we have you.
16:27Okay.
16:28I do have to get the hoagie.
16:29I mean, we also, when writing it, we rarely will write a talking head for a guest star.
16:35Like we, we try to keep those sort of like in family, we call like our series regulars
16:39do those.
16:40And we generally, it's almost sort of like our version of like Johnny Carson inviting
16:45you over to the couch, like after your, after your standup set.
16:50I feel like we really try to, until somebody kind of becomes a member of the family, we
16:55try to give them those, those talking head moments.
17:01But it is, it is, you know, the reactions I think are really important.
17:05And, and even just the, the, where there's no line at the end, we always let it run usually.
17:11And it's just that even if it's a blank stare, that, that moment, which can be so funny too,
17:17which you don't often get in, in a lot of comedies, because let's just move on to the
17:22next scene.
17:23And you guys actually let that happen.
17:26You have very successfully done this career for a while.
17:31And I think like, what is the thing that you love most about what you do?
17:38And like, what gets you excited when you see it?
17:42I think for Abbott specifically, but in general as well, it's when you see actors that have
17:50been working at their craft for a long time and where they step into shoes that fit perfectly
17:58and have a moment to actually breathe in the role.
18:05And I find some of our guest casts have had that, where they be just, when you, there's
18:12an actor who's not necessarily well-known or had the opportunity.
18:16And when they get that chance, that's probably the most satisfying experience to watch.
18:25And then also to be a part of the conduit of that, of finding this material and finding
18:31the perfect puzzle piece for it, or somebody that heightens what's already great on the
18:36page.
18:38And when you see something actually get better than it's on the page, that's, that's a pretty
18:42huge moment for casting.
18:44That's super gratifying.
18:45I think for writers to, you know, you have this idea of this character in your head when
18:51you start out and then the actor and role starts to kind of, they start to mesh, right?
18:58And then you start to get to know that person, that actor, the person more and find out who
19:04they are, what they do well, you know, what they gravitate, gravitate toward naturally.
19:09And then you start to kind of like inch by inch, like redefine the role a little bit.
19:15And is that a conscious moment in the room where you accumulatively are like, we're,
19:23we are going to sort of reshape or redefine this character, or is that something that
19:27just is a slow process?
19:31It's, you know, little by little, some, you know, a writer on staff will say, Well, hey,
19:36I know this thing about this person, you know, like, maybe we can integrate, like, for example,
19:41a skill, you know, that they have, you know, it's like, we know that, you know, Lisa Ann
19:46is like an amazing dancer, and like, maybe integrate that a little bit more in the upcoming
19:52season, you know, things like that.
19:54You know, but then little by little, it just starts to happen.
19:57It's like through osmosis, right?
20:00Like even on the pilot, I remember Lisa Ann brought us all homemade meatballs that she
20:04had made.
20:06She was like, made us these homemade meatballs.
20:09And she's like this incredible Italian chef, Sicilian chef.
20:13And then there's a scene in the pilot where they, they need to get rugs for Janine.
20:20And she says, I gotta I'm gonna go make a call.
20:23And I pitched on the moment I was like, I'm gonna have to go bake a ziti because I was
20:27like, oh, this is probably a person like Lisa Ann probably like, pays people back,
20:32you know, with love in in with her food, you know, and let's let's make that part of the
20:38character.
20:39You want to get a drink at Ruby's tonight?
20:41Uh, yeah, I'm down.
20:43Did you all not check out Sabrina's yesterday?
20:45Oh, we did.
20:46Yeah.
20:47Did you mention my name?
20:48Yeah.
20:49The staff had a really loaded reaction.
20:50Bet you didn't have to pay though.
20:52Monetarily?
20:53No.
20:54Emotionally, however.
20:55You know, you're a real social butterfly lately.
20:57Takes me back to when I used to stay out all night to avoid my problems.
21:02But that was last week.
21:04Old gal still got it, huh?
21:07I mean, young maiden.
21:08So I think it is like sort of melding the things that you know about the actor that
21:14they like to do.
21:15Like Barbara is definitely if someone, you know, like Cheryl Lee is in that first season,
21:24she used we took this moment where Cheryl Lee was telling us about who were the actors
21:30that she was or she oh, she got Orlando Bloom and Orlando Jones.
21:36Yeah.
21:37Yeah.
21:38And so we were like, oh, it'd be funny if also Barbara keeps thinking that certain white
21:45celebrities were black and vice versa.
21:48And so we wrote that into one of our probably one of our most well known cold opens.
21:54And it's something that's been a runner and also just the fact that like Cheryl is such
21:57an amazing singer and it is something she loves to do.
22:01Well, Barbara now loves to do that, you know.
22:04Look at him.
22:05Those Liberty kids keep cutting our kids in line.
22:07It's just kids being kids.
22:09See my student Torian is right up front.
22:12Nobody's cutting.
22:13Oh, just wait a minute.
22:14Hold on a second.
22:15OK, let's let's not let this ruin my big day.
22:17OK, but you didn't see what happened between me and one of the Liberty teachers earlier.
22:21I am sensing a pattern here.
22:23Alyssa, I'm going to need some muscle in a sharp tongue.
22:27Well, let's go then.
22:28Come on.
22:29The way that we always think about it is like you write a character, you have an idea for
22:32that character.
22:33You have such a you have to have a specific idea for that character.
22:36And then you go to casting and you see somebody who has a take on your version of the character.
22:44That's great.
22:45And it may be a little different than what you wrote.
22:48And I think the mistake I we've made earlier in our careers and the mistake I see a lot
22:54of people make is that they try to force that performer who's brilliant into this character
23:03that they've written instead of seeing this brilliant performer and sort of writing to
23:09them.
23:10Right.
23:11And I think that that is like the mistake I see a lot of people make.
23:15It's like, if you have this brilliant performer who blew you away, the words can change.
23:21Right.
23:22But the performer is the performer, you know, and let's let's let's play to what made you
23:26fall in love with that performer at the start.
23:29I mean, that's the way that we look at it.
23:31Yeah.
23:32Obviously, casting, we cannot understate its importance in the success of a show.
23:38We've been told many times, incredible cast, and like an OK script, and you can have a
23:44hit show, but you can have like an OK cast and an incredible script, and it's not going
23:49to fly.
23:50Fortunately, I think we have incredible on both ends with Avid.
23:55I think that's why I think I'm like this kind of force of nature in and of itself.
24:00But yeah, it's like, I think we had a fear early on as writers where it's like, well,
24:05I had this character in my head, and this is what pitch to the studio and then the network.
24:09And then that's who they they bought the show based on those archetypes or whatever.
24:15And so I have to stick to that.
24:16And it's all these fear based decisions.
24:18And then it's like, no, actually, at the end of the day, it's like, you're just trying
24:21to make an amazing show and you gotta let those actors, you know, fly.
24:28And that is the exciting part of the process, too, where you, you know, you sometimes hear
24:32it in the room eight times in a row, exactly the same, and somebody comes in and says the
24:36words completely different and not how any of us imagined it, not how I imagined it,
24:41not how, you know, you imagined it.
24:44And it's exciting when when you see what the actors can actually create and bring to it.
24:51It can be so magical in that moment.
24:53Yeah, I mean, the whole reason we even know Quinta is because we cast her for something
24:59she was that she was absolutely not what it was on the page.
25:02I mean, we had cast her in a pilot, the pilot we cast her in the role was written for a
25:08valley girl from Reseda.
25:11And we cast Quinta Brunson because when Quinta came in and read, we were like, well, fuck
25:18what we just wrote.
25:19Like this is her.
25:21She's incredible.
25:22Like, let's rewrite what we wrote for her, because that's how special she was.
25:28So I think that that is the the thing that is so fun about like coming in, you know,
25:33you see 10 times as many reads as we see.
25:36You call them down to like the place where we have, you know, because otherwise we wouldn't
25:39have time to look at all.
25:41So you're seeing even more than what we're seeing.
25:43And it's really true.
25:45It's like the people who come in and make some specific choice or do something just
25:52in a way where you're like, oh, that says so much about the character.
25:55Oh, my God, that's such a brilliant choice that they made.
26:00Those moments are so exciting when they happen.
26:02Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me.
26:06Oh, my God.
26:08Hey, little girl, look at you all dressed up for career day.
26:15Good one, Jalen Hurts.
26:16Well, I was just gonna say, as a writer, hearing your words after 10, you know, 10, 20 times
26:25of seeing an audition of something you wrote, and it's just not being quite right, you're
26:31like, I think maybe I'm just a really shitty writer.
26:34And then people come in and they'll like say, and you'll be like, oh, maybe this wasn't
26:38actually shitty, because that was great.
26:41Yeah.
26:42Yeah.
26:43But and it's quite a compliment to you guys to be able to adjust and, and to recognize,
26:49you know, the creativity coming at you as well.
26:52I mean, it's, it is so collaborative.
26:55Well, I think we have comes from low self esteem, Wendy.
27:00Well, to kind of wrap this up, I did want to sort of ask you at the end of this, like,
27:06you know, what do you what are your sort of creative goals, you know, going forward as
27:11you as you keep going with us and just on other shows and everything that you're doing?
27:16That's a great question.
27:19I would say, I mean, it would be interesting to do sort of genres that I have yet to do,
27:28which is partially because I'm afraid of them, like sci fi, I'm afraid of that procedural
27:33terrifies me.
27:35So I think it would be interesting to try, like, I just did a Western, which I'd never
27:40done before, to try new sort of eras, I think that would be really fun.
27:47And I like going back in time when people didn't have as pretty teeth.
27:51That's really fun.
27:52So I think that sort of exploration is, is really interesting for me.
27:57My final question is, if you had to cast a lead the show, and it's between me and Pat,
28:03who would you take?
28:04Who has star quality?
28:06I would make it a two hander.
28:08Oh, no, because I think, you know, some shows that the two together make it just fireworks
28:17that individually, the spinoff wouldn't have worked.
28:19So I think I think this is the perfect answer.
28:23And my director Emmy nominated this year and why you should win again.
28:30Yes.
28:30And why we love you.
28:35Well, it was really, really great talking to you.
28:38We truly, truly love working with you.
28:40You are fantastic.
28:42And so collaborative.
28:43And just like, I always know, whenever we pick up the phone to call you and Chris, Chris
28:49Garrett, that we are just in the best possible hands.
28:53You guys are so talented.
28:56And such deserved Emmy win.
28:58And I hope you win again, because the work that you do is so, you're just so good at
29:03your job.
29:04Thanks, guys.
29:06So are you.