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00:00Hi, welcome to The Process. I'm Lulu Wang, and I'm the creator and director on Amazon's
00:11Expats. And I'm really happy to be here with my favorite and your favorite production designer,
00:19Yong Ah Lee. So Yong and I actually met on a short film, and Yong had just graduated from
00:28AFI, I think. And she had about a budget of $300 for a nine minute short film with like
00:37five different sets, including a jail cell, and knocked it out of the park. So we were we've
00:44worked together ever since. So I guess I'll start by asking Yong, now that you're in the hot seat,
00:54this is very exciting for me. I want to ask you, what you thought of the scripts when you first,
01:03you know, when we first started talking about doing this series, and that Nicole Kidman had
01:09reached out and wanted to adapt this book? What were your initial thoughts?
01:15Thank you for the meeting, by the way, I know you are very, very busy and taking the time and
01:25meeting. Yeah, the first time when you mentioned about the project, you know, as I said before,
01:34I didn't really believe in if I could work on this show, because it was the way bigger show than,
01:42you know, I did before. And I know it's always difficult to bring, you know, team to bigger like
01:50a scale studio show, even though you would love, you know, your own team, it's always hard. So
01:57I was very, very excited. And I read the script. And, like, you know, you talk about this show
02:04before and then about the expert and then boo, but at the time, I didn't read the book yet. So
02:11I only read the script. And then I feel like it could be very, you know, special, because
02:18the script, it's not like, you know, plot heavy, typical TV show, like it's more focused on the
02:26character. And then, you know, their emotion and their type, their relationship, the three months.
02:32So I was really excited to create with you and Anna. But also, I was, you know, excited,
02:43because I can work with you and Anna again after the farewell. So, yeah.
02:50Yeah. And were there, do you remember, like, anything specific about our early conversations
02:55about the show and about the scripts specifically that made you feel like, okay, this was a good
03:02next project for us to do after the farewell, even though it was so much bigger in scale?
03:09I don't remember exactly what our initial, like, first conversation of the show, because we were
03:17discussing so many different things. But I remember, like, you and Anna wanted to make
03:24this show more like, not like, focused on, like, what it really happened about, you know,
03:32what is the cause. And then, you know, like, not the story itself, more like, you know,
03:38how we can make it real about the emotion and grief, and then what's the visual language we
03:44want to bring. So I think you guys brought me, like, a kind of, like, all the ideas of
03:52also reference movies, and you want me to check all the visual reference before we start,
04:00and then we discuss together. I think when we are in quarantine in Hong Kong, you know,
04:07we watch movies together, we ate together. So, like, for me, it's mainly more listening to you
04:14guys, like, what you think about the show and what you want to bring to the, you know, to the
04:21audience. So I kind of follow, and I want to grab all the information from you guys,
04:26so I can create, you know, my own design, you know, based on your idea.
04:51Hi, Pino. Hi, Pino.
05:21Gentle, guys.
05:40When you first started prepping, I mean, I think, like, when the first thing that I saw from you,
05:45you were like, oh, I just prepared a couple images, and then it was like
05:49a 50-page, like, a PDF of, like, all these references, which is amazing, and it's what I
05:57love about our collaboration. Like, it helps me, you know, I'm in the writer's room, and we've,
06:03like, written all of this stuff, but I don't necessarily have the visual language figured out,
06:08or all of the specific details, and I just remember, like, your process so early on,
06:17you were getting pictures, not just, like, color and general tone, but, like, of, like,
06:24very specific details, like the mops, and, you know, the class divide, and how to, like,
06:33what symbols to represent to do that. So can you just talk a little bit about your process
06:38of building out your first images? Yeah, I think, like, but also, I feel
06:47like I had some kind of luxury, because, you know, we had quarantine more, like, you know,
06:54three weeks, but I did quarantine, like, almost two months, because I will initially, like,
07:00scouting before you go to director scouting, so I had lots of time, you know, myself in small room,
07:08so I keep thinking about what, how I start this show, like, for design process, because
07:16it was very big, and then new to me, and then also Hong Kong wasn't, like, you know, it's Asian
07:23country, so it's kind of familiar with me, but it was long time ago I went to Hong Kong, so
07:29my memory was lost, so I, and also our backdrop, it's not, like, you know, like, current Hong Kong,
07:38it's, like, back to 2014, so I start research about 2014 Hong Kong, what happened, what is the
07:46big event, what's the history they had, and all the images, like, social media, and magazine,
07:53and everything, so I start collecting all the stuff, and then, you know, kind of, like, a pick
07:59stuff from, you know, what I feel it's interesting, and then fit the character, also the color, and
08:06then texture everything, so with that, you know, I kind of, like, start, like, I may arrange our,
08:12my visual, like, reference, and also thinking about why you ask me, why you gave me, also I'm,
08:20what I'm not wanted, so it was kind of, like, a mixed, you know, based on the our initial idea,
08:28and then, you know, I put together, so, and also I don't want to just put together for the concept,
08:35I also want, when you see my board, I want you to feel this is the story of the show,
08:43you know, so it's not just design, also I kind of consider, like, the story and character.
08:50Yeah, and I definitely felt that, you know, like, it takes you on a journey, like, your early mood boards,
08:57was there one aspect that was the most daunting, like, the most scary as a challenge, you know,
09:05obviously, we had things in episode five, like, the maid's picnic, the scale of that, right, and
09:12the umbrella movement, being able to depict historical accuracy, authenticity of the domestic
09:19workers on their day off, scale of both of those things is something that I have never done with
09:27you, I don't know if you've done in your earlier projects, I think you mentioned you've done some
09:32bigger things in stage builds, but, like, there was just a gamut of so many different, you know,
09:37in the building, the expat's apartment, completely on a stage, there's all of the rain, like,
09:46was, what was the most daunting aspect of the whole production?
09:51I mean, to be honest, I kind of, like, let it be, you know, like, the flow as it, like, as it goes,
10:01and also, I felt I was too busy to got scared, you know, of it, and then anyway, we are there,
10:11and then I feel like there's no way to be back, so it's kind of like, you know, I'm gonna try to
10:19I'm gonna try to my best, as I always do, and then big building set, or, like, a bigger scale
10:26wasn't really, like, my concern, it was always more people, more team who I could bring, who I could
10:36work with, so, because we always, like, have new people, like, to watch us working together, and
10:43then once it goes well, like, all the execution and creative part, I didn't worry, because it's
10:49always you and Anna, me together, we discuss about all the creative visual languages, so,
10:55for me, the idea was there, but I don't know how to make it happen with new people,
11:04so that was the biggest challenge for me, especially we had to adjust the Hong Kong
11:10system with all international crew, and then go back to L.A., like, back to L.A. system,
11:17U.S. system, so that was the difficult for me. Yeah, like, building the sets that had to match,
11:25but then building one of, you're talking about building the Star apartment in Hong Kong,
11:31and then building the Woo apartment in L.A., even though they belong in the same building,
11:36so all the materials have to look the same, yeah, can you talk a little bit about that challenge
11:43of sourcing materials from different places, but having to make them match,
11:50so that it feels continuous, because I just remember what was so important for all of us
11:56is the authenticity, right, like, you're shooting something in Hong Kong, it has to really feel like
12:01Hong Kong, the worst possible thing would be to come in as an American production and get, like,
12:07a bunch of establishing shots, and then cut inside to, like, Burbank stage, you know, which would,
12:12like, something that's so obviously a stage, and so part of the visual language was just making sure
12:19that everything felt seamless, and so I'm sure that was, I mean, I know that was a huge
12:29challenge for you, so can you just talk about how you navigated sourcing all the materials from
12:35different places? So I'm gonna start from Hillary's apartment when we had to build in Hong Kong,
12:44because we didn't plan to build in Hong Kong even, Hillary's apartment was planned to build in
12:50Malaysia, so when we moved the set in Hong Kong, like, we couldn't build a flat in Hong Kong,
12:59because there's no space for workshop, so we built the flats in China, and they shipped to Hong Kong,
13:07which means, yeah, the flat the worst, which I couldn't see the process, which is very, very rare,
13:17so I was very nervous, like, how it comes, came, and then the day when we arrived to Hong Kong,
13:24my art director told me, like, don't go to the set. Yeah, because she thought, she thought it
13:30was terrible, and you were gonna hate it. Yeah, and then she thought I'm gonna yell at everyone,
13:36so, like, we kind of, like, spent time to fix it, but also the design itself for Hillary's apartment,
13:44we knew at the time we are going to recycle Hillary's apartment to Margaret's apartment, so
13:50we intentionally designed Hillary's apartment to match Margaret's, but also easy to change,
13:57you know, yeah, the layout, moving this wall here, so that is when you walk in, instead of the
14:04kitchen, you're walking in, I mean, instead of the, instead of the dining room, you're now walking
14:09into the living room, right? Yeah, yeah, but, like, it should be somehow different, because
14:15their scale feels different, and then the function is different, so we designed that way, and then
14:22at the end, we moved the Margaret set to LA, so when I built Hillary's apartment in Hong, I was
14:30happy, because we could use all the real material, because it's way cheaper, and so I was able to
14:38get all the marble, and then wood, and, like, brass, all the, like, real material,
14:46and also we had, we could build all the furniture as we wanted, so the design was really well
14:54planned, and then the execution was great at the end, and then when we went back to LA, it was all
15:00headache, because the material I couldn't get real, and then from China, so we had to match
15:07in LA with the scenic, and all the fake, and then I know it's always difficult to create
15:13marble, or fake marble, fake wood, because it's a natural material, so, like, we had lots of process,
15:22like, we had to scan the real material from Hong Kong, and then, you know, send to the file, and
15:28then we print out, and then scenic department need to, are, like, aging on top of it, and then make
15:34the sheen, so every process is so, so many, but it's a step-by-step, but luckily, I feel I had
15:43really great team in LA, and plus, we had, like, enough time to make detail, because, like, because
15:51of pandemic, we have some, like, a pause time, little bit between, and then some of my crew, like,
15:58like, there's nothing to do, so my, he said, he came to me, like, do you want a little bit
16:03detail more, so I can make it look more real, so, like, and then why not, so I asked them, like,
16:09yeah, yeah, make this one a little bit, you know, darker, this one a little bit, like, lighter, so
16:14we had, like, we had quite a good team, and then time, also, you know, probably, like, enough
16:22supporting to make it happen, so I think it ended up, the set looks believable, I agree.
16:34I'm back on the pill.
16:39Does David know?
16:44I know, I know, I know, I know, I hate lying to him, but I don't know how to tell him.
16:52I mean, I'm not trying to change your mind, but I am going to tell you, when I got pregnant with
16:57Gus, I didn't want another baby. I didn't know that. I mean, I feel guilty saying this, but I,
17:05I had this voice stuck on repeat in my head, chanting, I don't want another baby, I don't want
17:10another baby, almost like I was wishing him away. Can you talk a little bit about the collaboration
17:18with Anna, because I just think, you know, I love watching you guys work, and I obviously trust you
17:26guys both so much, but talk about, like, your process and your work with Anna's work, because
17:36you guys do collaborate, but I think it's also important for people to hear how often you
17:40disagree, and how you move through the disagreements, because they both come from
17:47very important and specific point of views, but how you move through them to ultimately achieve
17:52the vision that you do. Yeah, I mean, Anna and I work, even before I work with you, so we know
18:04each other, how, like, we work usually, like, for the show. And, but Expe was a little more,
18:14I think we argued more than, you know, Farewell, or other movies, because it was a long time
18:20together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, it was a long process. And then Anna got so much stress,
18:27I got so much stress. So we are a little bit sensitive, and when we talk about things,
18:32so it's, and also, like, you know, Anna and you are so, like, work together so, like, closely,
18:40and then, like, a different time, and in different space, and then I work with my team. So it was
18:47a little bit, sometimes, like, communication was a little bit off, and then we thought we,
18:53we understand each other, and then realized, we thought the different things. But also,
18:59just in your defense, English is the second language for both you and Anna. And so you're
19:06both communicating through a second language. But also, like, sometimes a great location,
19:12like when we were location scouting, a great location for Anna, and what we're looking for
19:17through the camera, and that has the right layout, is a huge pain, or just impossible for you to
19:24design with the budget that you're given. And so oftentimes, it was this negotiation of, like,
19:30well, this location is great for the camera, but it may not be feasible for you to do through
19:37production, you know, in design. And then Anna and I would just go, yeah, yeah, we'll figure it out.
19:42And we get really frustrated, because you're like, well, you guys don't have to solve it,
19:46I have to solve it. I mean, it's always happened. So I used to be, and, and I understand why,
19:55like, I think the more for me to accept what you guys request me, because I also agree what you
20:02wanted to do. And then, you know, I'm not always show me what she's going to do for the frame,
20:09because you guys are always blocking together, and then made a storyboard, and they share with me.
20:14And even before you and Anna talk, like, Anna and I initially talk about what is the tone we want
20:20to make, and then I show Anna, like, this is color I want to bring on. And then, you know, this is my
20:27intention for the for the design. And then if she agree with me, we can go for it. And, you know,
20:34oftentimes, we, I think we agree most of the time, because we already have kind of same language,
20:41same visual language, and then we know each other. But the arguments always happen, you know,
20:46sometimes I focused on the one design element, which I feel is really important. But I'm not
20:53focused on more camera movement and blocking. And then it's like, sometimes it bothers her camera.
20:59So most of the time, I kind of let it, let Anna's way because I can always adjust more than camera
21:07adjust to me, because you and Anna already designed the blocking and then acting and direction. So I
21:14think the production design could more like, you know, adjust that. But I think one, one example,
21:23I can, I can tell now, remember the Margaret's apartment, Hillary's apartment has the partition
21:31in the like entrance. And then I remember how, how much I'm not hate that partition.
21:38Because it's heavy, heavy item, and then it blocks camera so many ways. Yeah. So she keep asking me
21:49not having it because it blocked too much of camera and then she has no idea how to make the
21:55frame, especially in Margaret's apartment. I think Hillary's apartment was fine, because
22:01Hillary's apartment layout is slightly different. And I have like, you know, great glass texture for
22:08different, you know, space. So she could use that one instead of the partition. But Anna doesn't
22:15like the partition being in Margaret's apartment. And I said, No, I cannot give up because
22:21this element, it's like making their apartment, it's the same, you know, apartment building.
22:27And then this is Yeah, yeah. And then this is like a Asian feature. I don't know if you know
22:34the word like a feng shui, feng shui. Yeah, so it's like a very Asian concept. So I want to show
22:42it in the movie. So I couldn't give up that part. And then I keep like saying I'm not no, no, no,
22:48I'm not gonna give up. And then you know, you can figure out this time for me. So I think that
22:55like some needed parts we argue, but I think overall, the bigger concept we always agree with.
23:02Yeah. Well, I mean, it was huge, huge undertaking for both of you, because you so value, as I
23:10mentioned before, like reality that it has to look authentic. And I think the biggest challenge,
23:15in my point of view was doing the set build doing these buildings of the apartments,
23:20because they have to match all of the practical shooting we were doing on real locations. And
23:25Hong Kong just feels so textural and so real. And these apartments, even though they're a bubble
23:33of Hong Kong, and they're supposed to feel a little bit fake, because it is a sort of
23:39a much more curated world with the rich expats, but it still had to feel like they were
23:46real apartments and not just sets. And we were doing like, what was it like a 70 foot backdrop
23:517070 feet wide by 30 feet high. Yeah, something like that. And then we build our set higher,
23:59like 10 feet higher on the stage. It was just, I wish we had the time to go into all of the
24:06research that you guys did. But it's like, was just incredible to watch, because you didn't
24:11go to the typical resources of research. And you went to much more like indie filmmakers who had
24:19also done set builds. Anyways, so I it was just incredibly impressive to see how you guys face
24:29that challenge. Wow. Great. How do you feel? Oh, well, you look good.
24:49Okay. Do you think your parents are right?
24:52About the party? Should we have waited? Dr. Stein said we need to live life. Right?
25:03It's the only way one foot in front of the other. We can't think of it as a betrayal.
25:15One of the great things of bringing, you know, of Nicole giving me freedom and Amazon
25:21being so supportive and allowing me to bring my team from the farewell,
25:28even though, you know, the resumes aren't what they were used to, or whatever,
25:31is the continuity for us, like growing our careers and our art together that we can,
25:37you know, we all talk so much super early on about what we all want to do together
25:42next, as opposed to it being like just my decision. But I think sometimes I saw you face
25:48the challenge of that is that, you know, people can see that you don't necessarily have the resume
25:56that makes you makes them feel like, oh, like, you deserve this position, right? And you often
26:03have to hire people who have much longer resumes who have worked with people with much longer
26:08resumes. And I'm sure being a woman and being a woman where English isn't your first language,
26:15like, how did you navigate that? Because, you know, it can be challenged, like all of these
26:20things can be super challenging on a practical level, like pulling off what you've pulled off.
26:26But I just think on an emotional, psychological level, like navigating different types of
26:34personalities and egos and respect, you know, to get the respect that in order to
26:40believe in yourself and to actually pull it off.
26:47I think the, like, when I decided to come here, and also stay here, I kind of like, in my mind,
27:00like, it's always like a need to survive here. It's not about like being respectable, you know,
27:06by people as a designer, I, I didn't care, like being designer, it doesn't matter for me to work
27:14as an art director, or just part of art department or designer. For me, it's more important to,
27:22like, live here and work here with good people. So, and when I get, of course, like there are tons
27:30of people who, who is like a talented and long resume. And like, oftentimes, I'm afraid, you
27:37know, to bring, like, you know, like skills that people and longer resume and then walk under the
27:45mean, you know, sometimes, and then food, so like a man and, you know, but I kind of like forgot
27:53when I started working anyway, you know, who I am, and even like, gender doesn't really matter
27:59the female because, I guess, because also, I'm the English is not my first language. So sometimes I
28:07didn't get sent, you know, someone like a talk to me like kind of, you know, if someone insults you,
28:15you just, yeah, I didn't. Yeah, I just didn't get it because someone like, treat me as a like woman.
28:22And then, you know, expect me to be, you know, more polite, and then soft and feminine. I don't
28:30catch that tone sometimes, because also, because I focus on the work. And, and that part is not
28:37really important for me. So I like ignoring that part very easily. And, you know, sometimes when I
28:45talk to my crew, who is the man and then more like a longer experience, and then kind of like against
28:51me. I also didn't really care because it's your problem, not my problem. And you just work,
28:59like for the show. And then if you don't follow my direction, just go.
29:06You know, and then if people doesn't want to hire me, because I couldn't really understand
29:12the sense and was the language or attitude as American, I think, you know, I have no way to
29:22fix it. Because that's who I am. And then if they want me, they have to accept, you know, my other
29:29part. Yeah, yeah. So the answer, I don't know. Well, I don't want you to ever change.
29:39Um, and I guess I'll finish off by just saying that you've mentioned that Anna and I made you
29:46cry a lot. And did you suffer a lot in this project? Do you still feel that way? And would
29:53you work with us again? I mean, you guys probably would do it again. But I'm I'd be happy to work
30:02with you again, because I feel, you know, I'm sure you guys have a lot more stress than I do
30:10for the show, and like, lots of pressure on you. And then, so, like, even though like, I cried,
30:17because you made me very challenging, and the request was difficult to come from you and Anna.
30:24But it was like, at the end, like, it's not like just you to ask me to do it, no matter what,
30:31you ask me and then you support me as well. So yeah, it made me it happened. So I feel I was
30:39very, like supportive by you and Anna all the time. And we always discuss if there's something
30:46I couldn't do it. I think it's my pride. I don't want to say no, or I couldn't do it when I work,
30:53because I'm crazy to work. But, you know, even if I say no to you, or I'm not probably you guys
31:00figure out together, like, how we can solve the problem.
31:05Yeah, but you know, you know, your pattern, and I think it's actually a great one. I don't think
31:10you do it intentionally. But you always under promise and over deliver. And so you always
31:17actually do say no, it's not possible. I can't do it. And then you end up doing it 10 times better
31:25than anything that we expect. And so now you've trained us. When you say no, I can't do it. We
31:31don't believe you. We're like, Oh, it's no, she's just saying that she's gonna come back and kill
31:35it. And you're like, No, no. So that's too bad. created this. Thank you. It's really fun to talk.
31:47I'm so happy that we get to show off your incredible work. I can't wait to do our next
31:53thing together.