Rape and Retribution: Perspectives on Justice || Interview with Acharya Prashant
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Video Information: Interview Session, 09.12.2019, Advait BodhSthal, Greater Noida, India
Context:
How to stop Rapes?
How do women get protection?
What is the right way to stop the problem of rape?
How should the government take steps to stop rape?
How should women protect themselves?
Music Credits: Milind Date
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ .
Be a part of the Live Sessions: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/enquir...
Want to read Acharya Prashant's Books?
Get Free Delivery: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/books?...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Video Information: Interview Session, 09.12.2019, Advait BodhSthal, Greater Noida, India
Context:
How to stop Rapes?
How do women get protection?
What is the right way to stop the problem of rape?
How should the government take steps to stop rape?
How should women protect themselves?
Music Credits: Milind Date
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ .
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00Pranam Acharyaji, first of all thanks for taking out your time for this discussion because
00:00:27this is something that I actually wanted to ask a lot of questions on, just because when
00:00:34such events happen in the society and they come into the limelight, the sequence of events
00:00:40is usually so fast that it becomes very difficult to really look at what is really happening
00:00:48there.
00:00:49What I am talking of is the recent things that were in the news, when almost I guess
00:00:5610 days back, the nation somehow woke up from its sleep when a case happened in Hyderabad
00:01:05near a toll plaza, a woman was brutally raped and murdered, it came in the public purview
00:01:17and after that people started asking for justice in their own ways, somebody asked for lynching,
00:01:26somebody asked for hanging them, somebody asked for several other kind of brutal ways,
00:01:34but somehow when I tried finding things on my own, I came to know that it's not as if
00:01:42it was just one incident, rape is something which is happening at a rate of 90 cases
00:01:48a day, and when I am saying 90 cases a day, these are the ones which are reported, there
00:01:55is going to be a huge number of cases which are not reported even, so this is something
00:02:01which is happening maybe even right now when we are talking.
00:02:06When the last time when I was sitting in front of you, I got the opportunity to ask a few
00:02:10questions, we were discussing climate change and when a discussion is on that, then it
00:02:15is fair but clear to people that somehow it is caused by us, it is somehow something where
00:02:23we need to take some measures, we need to spread some awareness and do this and that
00:02:26and people do a lot of things, but when I look at the news headlines, when I look at
00:02:32the news report at 9 pm daily, I find that rape is considered to be something as very
00:02:38individualistic, as if it is something which is done by an individual and which can be
00:02:44solved by just punishing the individual and that's all.
00:02:50But when such cases happen again and again, even after stricter laws are passed, when
00:02:56such cases are happening even in those countries where laws are far more stricter than India
00:03:02and even if they are not reported, we all know how these things go on in the periphery
00:03:08of the society and in the closed rooms.
00:03:14So the one thing that I really wanted to ask, not as any expert in the field of criminology,
00:03:19anthropology or psychology, but just as a common man, was that what exactly is the cause
00:03:26behind this and parallelly what is the role of these pillars of our civilisation, the
00:03:33society, the education, the entire entertainment industry and parallelly when such acts happen,
00:03:46how they are taken into account via the rule of law, the justice and everything.
00:03:52So I wanted a total view of this, a holistic view of this entire cause and this entire
00:04:00crime if you may say this, which is happening at very rampant scale.
00:04:05What is behind this?
00:04:24It depends on the depth to which you want to take your enquiry.
00:04:39If you want to keep things superficial, then the fellow who committed the act is the one
00:04:51behind the act, you could say just that much and close the file, you could convince and
00:05:06console yourself that the problem has been explained and the culprits have been nabbed
00:05:22and punished and it's not that you would be wrong, it's just that such an approach
00:05:39would not take you very far in the direction of really solving the problem.
00:05:55Unfortunately that's the approach most people want to
00:06:06take.
00:06:09It seems to be the easiest and the most hassle-free approach.
00:06:17A crime takes place, name the individuals, hunt for them and punish them.
00:06:37This is the most superficial and hence the least effective way of looking at the problem
00:06:52or solving the problem.
00:07:01One level higher than these are the people whose approach is to blame it on the system.
00:07:15They say yes, people are to be blamed but people are driven by the system, people themselves
00:07:28are victims of the system.
00:07:33So, let's change the system.
00:07:37They would say we need police reforms, we need judicial reforms, we need better civil
00:07:57infrastructure.
00:08:08One of the highest authorities of our country has very recently talked of reforming the
00:08:21judiciary and how the long delay in resolving such cases, disposing of such cases leads
00:08:38to widespread frustration with the judiciary and then people are forced to take things
00:08:44in their own hands and deliver instant justice in their own crude ways.
00:08:56So that's an approach that looks at the system to fix the problem.
00:09:11And then there is a third level higher than the level of these two that talks of culture.
00:09:37The people who take this approach, this level, they talk of social attitudes, they talk
00:09:49of prevalent misogyny, they talk of patriarchy, they even talk of economic disparities.
00:10:07They would go into historical reasons, social reasons, cultural reasons and they say that
00:10:14until and unless there is a social transformation, things cannot improve.
00:10:29The people who take the second approach are obviously trying to go deeper than the people
00:10:38who say that individuals by themselves are responsible and hence tackling and punishing
00:10:48those individuals is the way out.
00:10:53Even the people who take the socio-cultural and historical approach are probably trying
00:11:05to dig even deeper into the issue and they are saying that just changing the systems
00:11:17won't help, the entire social mindset has to change.
00:11:26So depending on the depth that you want to take, this whole
00:11:39matter of crime and retribution opens up in a different way.
00:11:54Each of these three approaches is valid, it's just that the outcomes will be hugely suboptimal
00:12:07if you take the first approach, they would be slightly better if you take the second
00:12:12one, they might be even better if you go for the third one.
00:12:17So these are the three types of responses we are currently seeing in the country and
00:12:25the entire world.
00:12:27You talked of a figure, you said every day 90 cases of sexual assault are being reported
00:12:36in India, if we extend the coverage to the entire world, the data would probably move
00:12:49to many hundreds and as you said these are just the reported cases, we do not know of
00:12:57the actual extent of the happening.
00:13:02Moreover, you have just talked of sexual assault cases, if we look at the overall scope
00:13:11of all kinds of criminal activity, then the number would simply shoot into multiple thousands.
00:13:25And be it any kind of criminal activity, very broadly these are the three approaches
00:13:37that we take.
00:13:40Blame the individual or blame the system or blame the society, society and its culture.
00:13:54Those who blame the system have more patience and more insight than the ones who blame merely
00:14:06the persons.
00:14:07So those who blame the system, they will ask for legislative reform and such things.
00:14:17Those who blame culture have even deeper insight and more patience than either of the
00:14:28two other categories.
00:14:34Then they will say we need to look at the way norms operate in the society, what are
00:14:51the mores, what are the prevailing values.
00:15:05I suppose these people with their approach are the nearest to solving the problem compared
00:15:16to the other two.
00:15:22But I would want to talk of a fourth approach.
00:15:33Why do I need a fourth approach first of all?
00:15:39I need a fourth approach because when you blame the offender, when you blame the system
00:15:54or the society, I feel you are conveniently avoiding looking at yourself.
00:16:19One wants to say in each of these three approaches that somebody else is to be blamed.
00:16:29In each of these three approaches, there is the benefit of victimization
00:16:51that one is drawing.
00:16:54The finger is pointing towards somebody else.
00:17:00He committed the theft, he is the murderer, he is the rapist, it's very easy to point
00:17:08at somebody else.
00:17:09Obviously, I am not to be looked at, don't even talk of who I am and how I am.
00:17:21That fellow out there, he is the culprit, punish him, hang him, lynch him, whatever.
00:17:34Or the system is to be blamed, what do we do?
00:17:38The entire country is like this, what do we do?
00:17:44The country is to be blamed.
00:17:48There are so few jobs, the economy is not doing very well, the education system is broken,
00:18:02courts are corrupt, justice is delivered at snail's pace, what do we do?
00:18:15And you see, how helpless we pretend to be and how clean we want to show ourselves as.
00:18:27I didn't do anything, I had to take matters into my own hands because it's the judge who
00:18:34is lousy.
00:18:46I am a victim, either I have nothing to do with the case as far as culpability is concerned
00:18:55or at most, if I indeed do have a relationship with the case, it is that I too am a victim
00:19:04in the case.
00:19:17Even at the third level, when you are saying that it is our culture and our flawed values
00:19:28and mental stuff that we got in heritage that is responsible, even then aren't you just
00:19:38very cleanly and innocently and deceptively presenting yourself as a passive victim?
00:19:56These are the three approaches that people have been taking and I obviously agree that
00:20:00the second is better than the first and the third is an even better approach.
00:20:05But there is something that these three approaches have in common and that is somebody else is
00:20:14to be blamed.
00:20:22These three approaches differ in identifying who that somebody else is.
00:20:30But in saying that it is somebody else who is to be blamed, these three approaches are
00:20:39all in consensus.
00:20:42They all agree.
00:20:45Hence a fourth approach is needed.
00:20:47That's why I am talking of the fourth approach.
00:20:49I would like to add something to this.
00:20:51I guess we have already exhausted the first three approaches.
00:20:54We have tried everything when it comes to the policing system.
00:20:58Previously there was a Romeo Squad to really look out for cases like these and when it
00:21:03comes to the judicial reforms, we are already asking for the capital punishment.
00:21:08So I guess when it comes to the system or the individual or the cultural reforms, we
00:21:15have already tried our best.
00:21:17In some sense, as you mentioned, we are helpless in this case.
00:21:21There would always be a scope, either real or ideal.
00:21:28You can never say that policing is perfect.
00:21:32So the next time a crime happens, you can again go back and say, you know, the police
00:21:36is lousy.
00:21:38And as far as our country goes, you cannot even say that policing or the judiciary are
00:21:48anywhere close to perfect.
00:21:51So nobody is going to ever feel that the first three approaches are exhausted.
00:21:58If nothing else, then the option to rely on the third approach would always remain.
00:22:05You see, you can say that now I am keeping a check on the individual that's in your hands.
00:22:13You can say that now I have reformed my public policy, my police system, my judicial system,
00:22:22my education system and such things.
00:22:26But how will you ever say that now I have reformed my history?
00:22:31You cannot change that, right?
00:22:33So if you have nobody else left to blame, if you have reached a saturation point in
00:22:40blaming, then still there is one easy culprit always available to be blamed and that is
00:22:47your history and culture and values.
00:22:52You could say everything else is all right.
00:22:54But you know, we Indians, we are such misogynist people and it's there in the old books and
00:23:01it's there in the histories, it's there in the fables and somebody might even say it's
00:23:07there in our blood.
00:23:08How do you change that?
00:23:11So that option to blame somebody else is always going to remain open, always.
00:23:18Even in the developed world, there is no place that is able to say that our law and order
00:23:31mechanism is anywhere close to perfect.
00:23:37Gory incidents happen there as well and then there is a lot of outrage on how the police
00:23:46is performing and how the entire civic infrastructure is performing.
00:23:57This option is never going to close, the option to point a finger at the other.
00:24:05It is never going to close because the closure of this option would imply an honest self-inquiry
00:24:13and that is a very difficult thing to do, that's a terrible thing to do for most people.
00:24:19So it would remain a compulsive tendency to keep blaming the other.
00:24:26Somebody else is responsible, somebody else is responsible and to punish the other is
00:24:32to absolve oneself of the responsibility.
00:24:37Do you see now why we very quickly start baying for blood?
00:24:44Just please kill someone, anyone, kill anyone so that we feel relieved in our consciences.
00:24:59Something terrible happened and that which happened is an undeniable proof that something
00:25:08is terribly wrong.
00:25:10I cannot deny that proof, it's just too much in my face, can't sweep it under the carpet.
00:25:19Usually we succeed in sweeping most issues under the carpet, we pretend as if things
00:25:28are alright but when something so very ghastly happens, it's all over the headlines, it becomes
00:25:37impossible to just close your eyes to this and turn away from it and you don't want to
00:25:47take the responsibility upon yourself.
00:25:51So then what is the only option you have?
00:25:55Punish somebody so that you can tell yourself and console yourself that the fault has been
00:26:04corrected, that revenge has been taken and that things have been set right.
00:26:11If you do not tell yourself that things have been set right, you will be forced to face
00:26:16the mirror, you will be obligated to enquire into yourself that you don't want to do.
00:26:25So the easiest thing is to blame a person, the system or the entire society, punish someone,
00:26:34be done with it and then carry on with your usual dirty life from which all kinds of crime germinates.
00:26:56I know I have made a rather strong statement but I would stand by it and as we discuss
00:27:08we will see what I want to say.
00:27:15So basically as much as I am seeing right now that whatever solutions or ways of correcting
00:27:22ourselves are being put forth in the limelight, they are all in the dimension of that one,
00:27:29two and three.
00:27:30I see that Circular was issued by Hyderabad police, they had given some ways of the way
00:27:39women should conduct themselves in the society and as a response to that many women activists
00:27:45usually say that why are we always educating the women, we should also talk about the men
00:27:52as to how to educate themselves but at the same time if we really want some instant results,
00:28:00if we really want to see that some solution must happen, must come and as early as possible.
00:28:14Is there any scope of that in the first three approaches?
00:28:19The first three approaches would give you exactly that, instant results but those instant
00:28:29results would be a global sub-optimum.
00:28:34They would optimize what you want in a very local area, when I say area I don't mean a
00:28:40geographical area.
00:28:43For example, you could contain probably the number of rape cases by having all women stay
00:28:56compulsorily indoors or cover their faces and their entire bodies or you could have
00:29:09a situation like some of the countries in the Middle East where you say that the criminal
00:29:24would be publicly flogged or his hands would be chopped off or his head would roll
00:29:39on the public square.
00:29:43You could do all those things and it's possible that the number of rape cases in isolation
00:29:52may dwindle and you might feel that such a policy has worked but as I said this would
00:29:59just be a local optimum.
00:30:04Globally in the sense of all human activity it would be a disaster, almost like air conditioning.
00:30:18That machine works at close to 40% efficiency I suppose.
00:30:25So it cools down a room but then heats up the atmosphere and the cooling effect it brings
00:30:36is only 40% of the energy that it burns.
00:30:45So much more heating takes place than cooling.
00:30:53When you look at the complete picture, when you look at the bigger picture.
00:31:02See if you take an air conditioner and you keep it inside a closed room what would happen?
00:31:11Switch it on.
00:31:12Keep an air conditioner, keep it inside a closed room and switch it on.
00:31:15What do you think would happen?
00:31:17The room will get heated up.
00:31:20That's the complete effect of the air conditioner.
00:31:22But we never know that.
00:31:23Why?
00:31:24Because we keep the thing half in and half out.
00:31:31So if you make laws like that then the half in would have appeared cooled down.
00:31:36The number of rape cases would cool down.
00:31:41But overall mischief would increase.
00:31:47That's the problem with the first three approaches.
00:31:51They try to tackle the issue in a very limited and local way.
00:31:57And obviously I repeat when I say local I do not mean geographically local.
00:32:00I mean mentally local.
00:32:06So just when you were describing the entire situation, a few things came up to my mind.
00:32:12That even now there are strict laws against such kind of assaults.
00:32:17And I guess there is some correlation with the moment that case happened in Hyderabad.
00:32:25There was a report that the searches for that victim's name with the keyword rape on porn
00:32:32sites shooted up.
00:32:34Parallelly I was also looking at one report regarding the box office collections.
00:32:40So there was one movie which was very much in vogue because of all such kind of behaviour
00:32:45which was somehow promoted there visually.
00:32:49Also received the highest collections in the industry.
00:32:54So are these three things or two three things that I just quoted are a by-product of the
00:32:59first three approaches that we have?
00:33:03See in fact there is no need really to refer to one particular unfortunate victim again
00:33:18and again.
00:33:19It's the same story being tragically repeated in every such case.
00:33:35And the case need not even be of sexual assault.
00:33:43Victim is multifarious and diverse and happens in very unimaginable and subtle ways as well.
00:34:01So first of all it is not about one particular victim.
00:34:07Secondly it is not even about rape alone.
00:34:10It's about the overall context of crime.
00:34:19Yes you have observed well that on the internet there are several videos
00:34:45that relate to sexual assaults and they have not been uploaded so that people feel disgusted.
00:35:01They have been uploaded so that people may relish them.
00:35:09I would not be surprised if some of those videos are actually paid content.
00:35:19And I would not be surprised if people are actually paying up to go and watch videos
00:35:27in which a child is being molested, a woman is being assaulted or somebody's head is
00:35:46being severed off.
00:35:56Can you imagine people paying money to watch this kind of stuff?
00:36:07So there is the fellow who commits the crime and then there is this fellow who uploads
00:36:14a video and makes money from the crime.
00:36:19Not that uploading that video is a very important part or extension of the crime but it gives
00:36:27us a very significant insight.
00:36:34Don't we all share these common vrittis, vasanas, tendencies and aren't we all linked
00:36:46to each other and constantly influencing each other?
00:36:55Can one person really exist in isolation and operate all alone?
00:37:09The fellow who watches child porn, is he really very different from a rapist?
00:37:26He is probably a bit cleverer but not really different.
00:37:37He adopts a relatively safer route.
00:37:40He says, I'll please myself by watching the heinous act on the screen.
00:37:49I'll be careful to not dirty my own hands.
00:37:55I'll be careful to not to stick my own neck out and run the risk of getting caught.
00:38:06I'll do the thing in the safety and comfort of my living room in front of my computer
00:38:14screen.
00:38:16But is he doing anything fundamentally different than the rapist?
00:38:24And the thing that you just mentioned, if it really happened, it tells us of who we
00:38:35are.
00:38:36And when I say we, I mean the individual person including the masses who carried out candlelight
00:38:53vigils and demonstrations and held up the placards and spoke aloud in legislative bodies
00:39:18and other places regarding the need to kill lynch and get instant revenge.
00:39:37That's how the common man is.
00:39:44If that's how the common man is, why are we so flabbergasted when criminals pop up
00:39:58in between?
00:40:02Is the common man himself not a supporter of crime, if not a criminal himself?
00:40:18You see a criminal just doesn't suddenly drop from the sky.
00:40:26He is produced in an ecosystem.
00:40:32And when I say ecosystem, I'm not talking of social values or culture or history of
00:40:43a place.
00:40:44I'm talking of how we are deciding to be right now in our deliberate consciousness.
00:40:53How is it that we are deciding to be right now?
00:41:04Are our acts all happening in a stupor?
00:41:09I'm talking of the common man.
00:41:14Maybe he doesn't very frequently violate the written law, the explicit law.
00:41:29But does he not carry the desire to really get and enjoy much that is forbidden by the
00:41:39law?
00:41:46It would be a great mistake to treat a criminal as a marginal aberration.
00:41:58But that's what we want to do.
00:42:01We want to say, oh, these are fringe elements.
00:42:05Oh, they live on the borders of the society.
00:42:10Oh, they belong to the suburbs.
00:42:14Oh, they are not what the mainstream is.
00:42:17The mainstream is different.
00:42:20It is these fringe elements that are causing all the trouble.
00:42:25They are the others.
00:42:26They are the outsiders.
00:42:27They are not the outsiders.
00:42:30They are very much related to the very inside of the society.
00:42:37They are very much related to how each one of us is.
00:42:46The face of the criminal is just our own criminal face that we usually keep hidden.
00:43:00In the criminal, it's just that the face gets exposed.
00:43:06Then you have two ways, either own up your mischief or disown it and say, no, no, no,
00:43:15that is not my face.
00:43:17I refuse to acknowledge it.
00:43:18I disown it.
00:43:20That is not mine.
00:43:21You take it away and hang it.
00:43:24Take that chap away and hang him.
00:43:26He's not me.
00:43:29We need to question that.
00:43:30Is that chap really not me?
00:43:36Then how do I extricate myself from the crime?
00:43:46By separating myself totally from him.
00:43:53I was saying the other day, nobody is born a criminal from the mother's womb.
00:44:03Think of what that fellow looks at.
00:44:07Think of what he reads.
00:44:09Think of what he sees on the internet.
00:44:12Think of the songs he hears.
00:44:16Think of the television serials he watches.
00:44:18Things of the movies he looks at.
00:44:20Who is producing that movie?
00:44:24Who is producing that movie?
00:44:27The mainstream is producing that movie, right?
00:44:30Was it you who showed that video to me yesterday?
00:44:34That criminal who has Anshu.
00:44:40So that video came to us yesterday.
00:44:44That criminal was there and very brazenly and actually happily, he was declaring that
00:44:51he has already killed six people and he is going to kill a few more.
00:44:57And he has been caught.
00:44:58He has been caught and the media just got the whiff and came to hold a mic in front
00:45:06of him.
00:45:08And policemen are surrounding him all around.
00:45:12In the middle of the policemen, just after being caught, very gladly he stands, declares
00:45:21that not only has he killed so many people, but he would actually kill a few more and
00:45:26that he would break away from the jail in no time.
00:45:31And that, on that day, he was just aiming at the police inspector and the police inspector
00:45:39was lucky that he got away with it.
00:45:46And the police inspector is probably standing by his side and grinning.
00:45:53And the fellow also says, I'm the hero of that Hindi movie.
00:46:00He names a particular movie.
00:46:05He says, I'm the Khalnayak of Khalnayak.
00:46:08And he actually either sings a song or quotes a dialogue or something from that same movie.
00:46:17I don't know the extent to which that movie is responsible.
00:46:20Maybe that fellow is just trying to have a good time by naming that movie.
00:46:26Maybe he's just trying to bluff his way.
00:46:28Maybe he's just trying to entertain the media.
00:46:30People go bonkers when they have a mic in front of them.
00:46:34So maybe the same thing happened to that ruffian as well.
00:46:38Oh, he's much more than a ruffian.
00:46:40He's accused of multiple murders.
00:46:48But if that movie is coming to his mind at that moment, it won't really be too much to
00:46:55conclude that that movie indeed did have something to do with his consciousness.
00:47:03Who made that movie?
00:47:04He made that movie.
00:47:05His father made that movie.
00:47:08Somebody made that movie, right?
00:47:09That somebody is you and me.
00:47:11I repeat, nobody is born a criminal.
00:47:16Who turns a fellow into a criminal?
00:47:20You have to look at the entire society.
00:47:25You have to look at how we have chosen to be.
00:47:30And this is not the third approach that I'm taking.
00:47:34I'm talking of each particular individual.
00:47:39Nobody lives a totally secluded or isolated life.
00:47:44We all get influenced and influence each other.
00:47:50What is the kind of influence we cast on each other?
00:47:55How are our relationships?
00:47:59How do we deal with each other?
00:48:05What is it that we have taken as acceptable?
00:48:14What is it that the common man has taken as acceptable?
00:48:19Look at the way the politicians operate.
00:48:23They operate that way and we still admire them.
00:48:31In fact, sometimes probably we admire them for the ways in which they operate.
00:48:36The politician we very well know is a criminal and yet we belong to his fan club.
00:48:43So who is it who is promoting crime then?
00:48:48Look at the parliament of the country.
00:48:50I suppose half the parliamentarians have criminal cases against them, close to half.
00:49:01And they didn't muscle their way through to the Lok Sabha, Rajya Sabha or to the state
00:49:07assemblies.
00:49:10They were elected.
00:49:12Let that sink in.
00:49:15We are talking of crime here.
00:49:18Our own representatives to our highest legislative bodies are criminals and they didn't barge
00:49:29their way into the parliament.
00:49:32We voted for them.
00:49:33We voted for crime.
00:49:37We voted for crime.
00:49:41If you vote for crime, then why do you act so stupefied when you see a crime happening
00:49:48on the road?
00:49:51We vote for crime, don't we?
00:49:54Alright, you may say, no, no, no.
00:49:59The fellow who represents me in my area is not a criminal.
00:50:02He doesn't have a criminal case.
00:50:10Don't you know how much is spent in the election campaign?
00:50:17Don't you know where the funding comes from?
00:50:23In spite of knowing all that, you remain okay with it.
00:50:30Not only do you remain ostensibly okay with it, I would have been alright had we been
00:50:37just pretending to be okay with it.
00:50:39We are not even pretending to be okay with it, we are actually okay with it.
00:50:44It is not that we pretend to respect our parliamentarians and our ministers and our chief ministers.
00:50:53Many of us actually do respect them.
00:50:59Knowing fully well who they are, had it been just a pretense of respect under pressure,
00:51:07it could have been possible.
00:51:11But there is a huge section of society that is actually full of respect for so many of
00:51:16their role models, knowing fully well that their role models are criminals.
00:51:25Now why are you surprised when somebody is robbed or raped or murdered?
00:51:39Look at this common urge, the common middle class urge to have a government job.
00:52:00You can contest me on this because I will not have data.
00:52:04He would come out and openly say that he wants to be a government officer because it
00:52:15offers big money.
00:52:18But don't you really know why in India there is such a mad rush after government jobs?
00:52:29And who is rushing after that plum job?
00:52:32The common man.
00:52:34The common man aspires to be a criminal.
00:52:42The common man aspires to be a criminal.
00:52:45A respectable criminal I'll beat.
00:52:50A respectable criminal.
00:52:51I am a respectable government officer.
00:52:55We very well know what all that implies.
00:53:00And we are not talking of sessions and Karnars here.
00:53:04We are talking of 99.99999% of government officers.
00:53:14The common man himself takes pleasure in crime.
00:53:20It's just that he doesn't have the guts to commit larger crimes, which too he does the
00:53:27moment he gets a safe position.
00:53:33So there are those who are committing crimes and then there are those who are waiting to
00:53:39commit crimes.
00:53:43There are those who are not committing crimes because they feel that it is not yet safe
00:53:47to commit a crime.
00:53:50They're waiting for their turn.
00:53:52They're waiting to gather more power.
00:53:56They are waiting to come to safe and powerful positions where then they can offend with impunity.
00:54:15Once we see what we are doing in our own households, I suppose it would be largely
00:54:26hollow to wish for an end to this menace.
00:54:34We'll be obviously trying out many steps as we have been doing in the past.
00:54:42Some of those steps will achieve some results, but those results will be superficial and
00:54:50very temporal.
00:54:54The reality of our being, the reality of our life will return in many, many ways again
00:55:01and again to haunt us.
00:55:06When I was trying to just soak in what you just said regarding our aspiration for government
00:55:11jobs and the reason behind it, now somehow it just struck me that now we are talking
00:55:19of people who prepare for these exams, who score good marks for these exams, who go through
00:55:27the biggest medicine as we think of against our crime as education, that somehow the ones
00:55:34who commit those crimes are the ones who are not educated and somehow if we can bring them
00:55:39into the room, into the classroom and things will solve.
00:55:43So basically we are trying to say that even when an individual goes through the entire
00:55:49journey of education that we have in different parts of the country or the world, even then
00:55:53that tendency to aspire to be a criminal stays in.
00:55:57So that makes me question the education system as well.
00:56:03As long as crime remains limited to something that is prescribed by the law, if that is
00:56:16what your definition of crime is, you will not be able to stop crime.
00:56:24We usually feel that we have committed a crime only if we have violated the law and
00:56:37if you can remain on the safe side, the right side of the law, you can declare yourself
00:56:43to be innocent in the eyes of the law.
00:56:50That is not how you can tackle crime.
00:56:57To tackle crime, you will need to have an internal locus and that internal locus alone
00:57:13is your way to real innocence.
00:57:16If you don't have that internal locus, then you are existentially guilty even if legally
00:57:26you are declared innocent.
00:57:29We talked of government jobs, there would be many government servants who would not
00:57:33be taking bribes, obviously, their numbers too would be large, technically, legally.
00:57:45They are alright.
00:57:48But then if one has an internal locus, one would ask himself, for the kind of salary
00:57:55I get, am I doing justice to my work?
00:58:04In the eyes of the law, you are a criminal only if, let's say you take a bribe.
00:58:16You need to have an internal locus where you don't need to measure yourself against the
00:58:23written law, where you ask yourself, it's not sufficient to just not to take bribes.
00:58:32I must also have a certain vision in life.
00:58:36I must also be aligned to the work that I am doing.
00:58:45I must be able to really respect, even worship my work.
00:58:49And if I am not able to worship my work, really it is a crime, even if technically it is not.
00:59:00That kind of thing is needed, otherwise you will be able to have limited solutions.
00:59:08You will be able to give yourself the satisfaction of having improved the situation or managed
00:59:17the situation, but you will never be ever able to fundamentally change the situation.
00:59:24If you want to manage crime, then take either of the first three approaches.
00:59:29We talked of them.
00:59:31But if you want to go beyond crime, then you will have to take the fourth approach.
00:59:37Mankind has already tried enough of one, two and three.
00:59:42Maybe it is time to bet on the fourth one, at least give it a try.
00:59:49What is the fourth one?
01:00:01We will have to raise the child differently.
01:00:08And to raise the child differently, we will need to be different.
01:00:16If you can change the actor, then obviously all the actions will change.
01:00:25Do you want to tackle crime, which is diverse and unending, of multiple shades and colors?
01:00:36Or would you rather tackle the criminal at the center?
01:00:41And when I say the criminal, I do not mean a person, I do not mean a body.
01:00:46I do not take that as the criminal.
01:00:48No body commits a crime.
01:00:52It is not your hand that commits the crime.
01:00:55It is not your kneecap that commits a crime.
01:01:01Crime we know of, right?
01:01:02The crime is an action.
01:01:03Who is the actor?
01:01:06Not your knee, not your nose.
01:01:09The actor is who you think you are, your identity.
01:01:15That's from where the crime proceeds.
01:01:19That has to be changed.
01:01:21Fathers have to change, mothers have to change, the kids will change.
01:01:29The kind of things people feed their kids, the kind of stuff people allow their kids
01:01:38to watch on television, the kind of movies that are allowed to become blockbusters, they
01:01:54have to be sharply looked at.
01:01:57We have had a spate of movies in the recent years where the protagonist is a de facto
01:02:08criminal and he is being lionized, absolutely glorified.
01:02:26I suppose one such movie was this Kabir Singh recently.
01:02:32If the hero in the popular consciousness himself is a debauched criminal, what do you expect
01:02:44the general populace to be?
01:02:49If your role model is a lout and a scoundrel, what do you expect is going to happen to the
01:02:58population?
01:03:09I'm not even talking of draconian or authoritarian measures where you just increase censorship
01:03:20to a point where you start controlling and curbing all media rather than regulating it.
01:03:29I'm talking of a revolution in man's consciousness.
01:03:38I'm talking of a situation where a movie like that is released.
01:03:43The censor board does not even ask for cuts.
01:03:49No editing is needed.
01:03:50Fine, you want to release that movie, go ahead and release.
01:03:54But I'm talking of a situation where nobody goes to watch that movie.
01:04:01Not that using the strong arm of the law, you prevent that movie from reaching theatres.
01:04:11I'm not talking of one movie, please.
01:04:13I have nothing against a particular script writer or producer.
01:04:20We are not isolated individuals.
01:04:22So I can't have anything against an individual as such.
01:04:27It's a genre of movies that I'm talking of.
01:04:33So I'm talking of a situation where even if such a movie is released, and let it be released,
01:04:37but the public taste is elevated to a point where the public finds it puke-worthy, distasteful.
01:04:47And the movie falls flat.
01:04:51Total collections over four weekends, not even one crore.
01:04:58That would be the real disincentive for the producer against coming up with any such similar
01:05:09venture in the future.
01:05:15After all, the final consumer of all kinds of nonsense is the individual, the common
01:05:22man.
01:05:24And that is where the change must happen.
01:05:33And it is not impossible.
01:05:34I'm not narrating some dream or utopia.
01:05:40It is very much doable.
01:05:43We want it to happen.
01:05:46Deep inside, each of us is craving for it.
01:05:48Its time has come.
01:05:50Not that there was any point in history when its time was not there.
01:05:57But I suppose as much as any other point in history or probably more than any other point
01:06:03in history, right now, we need that revolution in individual consciousness.
01:06:13Why do we need it today much more than we ever did?
01:06:18Because today we are 8 billion.
01:06:21Because today we control more resources than we ever did.
01:06:24And because today we are closer to destroying the planet than we ever were.
01:06:33So today we need that revolution more than ever.
01:06:43And that's the reason I constantly keep pointing at it.
01:06:46We always needed it.
01:06:49But today it's not even a need, a general need.
01:06:55It's an emergency requirement.
01:07:01You need it not like you need some water in general.
01:07:06You need it like a dying man needs medicines in ICU.
01:07:11These are two different levels of needs.
01:07:14These are two different intensities of needs.
01:07:17Today entire mankind is in ICU, the entire planet is in ICU.
01:07:22That's the medicine we need.
01:07:23That's the emergency healing that we need.
01:07:37But somehow the common man, me, everyone that I meet, people are not able to see the direct
01:07:47correlation that how what I am doing in my day, what I am doing right now is somehow
01:07:52resulting to that which is happening in that news headline.
01:07:56And this ignorance is the reason behind a fractured and very fragmented approach to
01:08:08life.
01:08:09We do not see how my food choices are linked to crime in society.
01:08:16I do not see how what is on my plate is responsible for climate change.
01:08:24I do not see how what I wear is related to the level of crime in the area.
01:08:31Oh, by this please, I am not talking of having a dress code for women or something.
01:08:38That's not the direction in which I am looking.
01:08:43We do not see how our political choices are responsible for crime.
01:08:49We do not see how everything that we do throughout the day, every little thing, including the
01:08:58decision to work somewhere, the decision to marry, the decision to have kids, the decision
01:09:04to read something, the decision to entertain oneself, the decision to travel, the decision
01:09:09to whatever, all these come from a common center.
01:09:16And if that center is not alright, then everything will be diseased.
01:09:25Take every individual instance of crime as a symptom of a deeper malaise.
01:09:34It is not the disease in itself, are you getting it?
01:09:41It is just a symptom of something far more lethal brewing within.
01:09:48It can be fatal.
01:09:52Instead we treat every such case separately, as if it has no connection with the general
01:10:05fabric of our collective mind.
01:10:13We totally absolve ourselves, we give ourselves a clean sheet, we say it happened there, so
01:10:20he is responsible.
01:10:23He is responsible, alright, go and punish him.
01:10:28But he is not the only one who is responsible.
01:10:32The responsibility trickles down right up to the one who says that others are responsible.
01:10:44Quick fix measures, blood bang, demands for instant lynching and such things, they will
01:11:00be ineffective, that's all.
01:11:02I am not saying they are ethically or morally or spiritually wrong or whatever.
01:11:08Suffices to say that these kinds of measures will remain ineffective.
01:11:14Do what you want to do, kill all the rapists and yet you will find 15 days down the line
01:11:23more cases of rape happening.
01:11:27Maybe if you create an environment of fear, then rape will be done in a way that it remains
01:11:40undisclosed.
01:11:41The rapist will take due care, he is afraid.
01:11:53You see, look at the markets, look at how we consume, look at what is being sold to
01:12:02us.
01:12:07You are constantly being provoked and excited, you are being kept on the boil.
01:12:24And one way to sell products is to use the body of a woman, beat any product.
01:12:40Now we have a very peculiar case in India.
01:12:45There is a lot of materialism sans material.
01:12:53You have indoctrinated the common man in materialism.
01:12:59You have told him, educated him in many ways that the material aspect of life is everything,
01:13:05that you must have pleasure.
01:13:07You have told him that happiness is the highest goal of life.
01:13:11How have you done that?
01:13:15Through internet, through media, through television, through all kinds of social influences.
01:13:25Materialism he now worships, material he has not.
01:13:33He is being constantly fed the images of attractive women, being made to pose to seduce.
01:13:52But those women he has not and he cannot have them.
01:13:57The gender ratio is 9-20, 9-30.
01:14:00In the northern states it is even less than 900 per 1000 men.
01:14:11So he is being all the time kept on a hormonal boil, even the holding by the wayside, let's
01:14:22say if you are a truck driver, even the holding by the wayside is displaying semi-nude women.
01:14:32He is always being kept on a testosteronic overdrive, the 6th gear.
01:14:43But where are the women?
01:14:46Oh please don't construe this to mean that all truck drivers must be having women and all that, no, no, please.
01:14:59Just see what is happening.
01:15:01With misplaced notions of happiness and development, we are pushing materialism very very hard.
01:15:19We say how good and big and growing and prosperous as a country we are depends on our material output.
01:15:30So how do we benchmark our country's progress by looking at the GDP?
01:15:39How do we set a target for the country's betterment, say we want X trillion GDP by this year.
01:15:48And we do not even realise, we are so ignorant that if the material becomes everything,
01:15:58then the woman's body or the man's body or the animal's body or the child's body too will be looked at as just material.
01:16:08The day you start worshipping GDP, you have turned everything into material.
01:16:14Because it is material prosperity and abundance that you are now looking at.
01:16:20And it's not merely the central government that does that.
01:16:25The father of the girl is looking for a suitable boy, a groom.
01:16:3080% of his decision depends on the material condition of the groom, prospective groom.
01:16:42How much do you earn? Do you have a government job?
01:16:45Alright, this is how much you earn over the table. Under the table?
01:16:49No, no, just indicate to me, I'll understand. I'm an expert in catching such signals.
01:16:54So the entire society is rushing after the material.
01:17:01And you very well know the relationship between the material and the woman's body.
01:17:06Material is that which sells, correct?
01:17:09If it doesn't sell, do you call it material? Does it contribute to GDP?
01:17:12It doesn't, like wasteland it is.
01:17:15Wasteland too is technically material, but does wasteland contribute to GDP? No.
01:17:20Anything that sells is material.
01:17:24The woman's body sells.
01:17:26So does the man's body, if the woman has purchasing power.
01:17:36So we are in this business now.
01:17:39Selling bodies.
01:17:43What's even more unnerving is that most of these bodies, which is the bodied people,
01:17:49themselves are turning them into objects of sale.
01:17:55Sometimes very unconsciously, they don't even know what they are doing.
01:17:59Look at all this beauty business, look at the cosmetics industry.
01:18:03And needless to say, how much the cosmetics industry is responsible
01:18:10for cruelty towards animals and climate change and all those things.
01:18:15I don't think this is the right time to go into what the textile industry,
01:18:24the fashion industry, the apparel industry and the cosmetics are doing
01:18:34to our ecosystem, to biodiversity, to animals, to climate change.
01:18:40But I must touch upon these issues as well.
01:18:43So that we know what the consequences of unbridled consumerism and materialism are.
01:18:56Do you see how all these things are interconnected?
01:18:59And you rightly said most people don't see that.
01:19:02They don't see how their choice in purchasing cosmetics is linked
01:19:12to a crime happening somewhere else.
01:19:15And the crime is not necessarily that a woman is offended or violated.
01:19:20Isn't the disappearance of an animal species a huge crime? Think of it.
01:19:29And you know now you would understand why,
01:19:36and listen carefully to this,
01:19:38why the rape of a woman gathers more publicity than the murder of the woman.
01:19:47So many women are murdered every day.
01:19:50Does their murder make headlines?
01:19:53Look at the number of homicide cases.
01:19:56Look at the number of women who are being murdered every day.
01:20:00Most people don't bat an eyelid.
01:20:03But rape is sensational.
01:20:06If it's a rape and murder case,
01:20:10then in Europe it would be mentioned in the media as a murder case,
01:20:18as an aside, as a description it would be mentioned
01:20:22that the woman was raped before being murdered.
01:20:26What is more important is that a human life has been lost.
01:20:31That is the more important and more sickening aspect.
01:20:37That is what should concern people.
01:20:40A murder has taken place.
01:20:42But look at what happened in India.
01:20:4480% of the public outcry was because of the rape.
01:20:51Only 20% was because of the murder.
01:20:54It is rape that interests people.
01:20:57Are people really interested in the welfare of women? No.
01:21:01Look at their approach towards women.
01:21:04But the moment a woman gets raped,
01:21:06then there is a big hue and cry.
01:21:09That will tell you our approach towards women's sexuality and the woman's body.
01:21:18We don't bother for their education,
01:21:23we don't feel ashamed
01:21:27when we make our little daughters dance in reality shows
01:21:32to loathsome filmy songs.
01:21:42A woman is not allowed to work after marriage.
01:21:46Nobody cares, it doesn't make headlines at all.
01:21:50A woman has unsafe work environment.
01:21:55Doesn't matter, doesn't make headlines.
01:22:00A woman dies during childbirth.
01:22:03Who bothers?
01:22:09Public spaces are not woman-friendly.
01:22:11Who bothers?
01:22:14Women themselves are getting conditioned to look at themselves as mere bodies.
01:22:21Nobody cares.
01:22:31The number of women in higher education lags behind the number of men in universities.
01:22:38Especially in professional education.
01:22:44That does not make for any sensational media report.
01:22:48A woman is murdered.
01:22:51Even that is just a two-inch thing in some newspaper.
01:22:59Usually a local newspaper.
01:23:03But if it is a sensational rape case,
01:23:07then the entire country joins in.
01:23:11Are we really concerned about women?
01:23:18Are we?
01:23:20Had we been concerned about women,
01:23:21how is it that the common man of this country
01:23:24is involved in so much of female foeticide, I want to ask.
01:23:30One murder has taken place
01:23:34and the entire country is up in arms.
01:23:40Where are the millions of missing girls?
01:23:43Who murdered them?
01:23:46And why didn't people talk of them?
01:23:48People didn't talk of them because it was the people who murdered those girls.
01:23:55But they did that murder
01:24:00in the safety and sanctity of their homes.
01:24:06So it didn't make to the media.
01:24:11I am again asking.
01:24:17Calculate, just calculate the number of girls
01:24:21who are not allowed to take birth every year.
01:24:27Then bring that number down to a per day digit.
01:24:35How many girls are being killed per day?
01:24:40By this common man of the country.
01:24:46What right does he have
01:24:49to shout on the streets
01:24:51and demonstrate and
01:24:55ask for blood?
01:24:59Is it not so that
01:25:05we the people are ourselves responsible?
01:25:08And we find an easy
01:25:16scapegoat in some petty criminal.
01:25:20We hang him and satisfy our bloodthirsty conscience.
01:25:38But now
01:25:41this makes me question one thing that
01:25:47the fourth way that we were talking of
01:25:51from where is it coming? Because
01:25:55okay, a very obvious answer in people's head would be it is okay.
01:25:59So when we say fourth way, we are talking of spirituality.
01:26:03But when I look at the point
01:26:05but when I look at the pop spirituality of today's age,
01:26:09it's not about this.
01:26:11It's not about looking at
01:26:13what you are doing point to point in its entire day,
01:26:17looking at the repercussions of that in the world,
01:26:20what kind of influences you are casting on somebody's head.
01:26:24So I won't call it spirituality in today's terms that we use,
01:26:28where exactly it is coming from, what it is.
01:26:36Spirituality has become a very loaded word,
01:26:42loaded with abuse.
01:26:45So I would prefer to just call it individual honesty.
01:26:51And that I suppose is not too much to ask for.
01:26:57That which is called
01:27:00continuous remembrance or self-observation
01:27:05in spirituality
01:27:07is actually in day-to-day language
01:27:11just basic honesty.
01:27:16Ignorance is not really absence of knowledge.
01:27:18Ignorance is absence of honesty.
01:27:23Knowledge is never far away.
01:27:25I am talking of self-knowledge.
01:27:27I am talking of self-knowledge.
01:27:29If we are talking of self-knowledge,
01:27:33then how can self-knowledge be far away?
01:27:36You just have to look at yourself.
01:27:38Correct?
01:27:39What is it that you are doing and what's going on?
01:27:43What's going on within you,
01:27:45in your thoughts, in your actions,
01:27:47in your intentions?
01:27:51So knowledge is not a problem.
01:27:54The problem lies with the intention.
01:27:58Do we really want to know
01:28:00or are we taking pleasure
01:28:03in our drowsiness,
01:28:06dreams, stupor,
01:28:08deep sleep or half-sleep?
01:28:16It is that honesty that I seek to address.
01:28:18It is that honesty
01:28:21that I seek to invoke.
01:28:27What else can be done?
01:28:30One does not really need to be taught too much.
01:28:37The so-called spiritual knowledge
01:28:40is no big deal.
01:28:47One wisdom text is sufficient
01:28:50if one has the intention to
01:28:54live by the truth.
01:28:58It is that intention that is lacking.
01:29:02Do we even want to be alright?
01:29:10Superficially, yes.
01:29:12And because you say superficially,
01:29:14even if superficially you say
01:29:16that you want to be alright,
01:29:19so I speak to you.
01:29:23And then I remind you
01:29:25of your own stated intention.
01:29:28I tell you, you came to me saying
01:29:30that you want to be alright.
01:29:32If you want to be alright,
01:29:35as per your own words,
01:29:38then kindly look at
01:29:41how you are conducting yourself in your family,
01:29:45how you are planning your life,
01:29:49how you are living day-to-day,
01:29:52what your relationship with the environment is,
01:29:54what your relationship with your wife and kids are,
01:29:57how do you relate to your parents,
01:30:03to what use do you put your money.
01:30:12If we want our welfare,
01:30:14if we want any kind of betterment,
01:30:17we will have to seriously
01:30:20consider these questions.
01:30:23We will have to find space
01:30:26to look at these things.
01:30:29Otherwise, we will
01:30:33just remain
01:30:37stupid sloganeers
01:30:40after
01:30:46every next
01:30:48diabolic incidence of
01:30:53rape or murder or
01:30:56deception or
01:31:01whatever.
01:31:08Nobody else, you see,
01:31:10can come and help in this matter.
01:31:13It's our life.
01:31:17And we want it to be
01:31:20the best it can be.
01:31:24So we must
01:31:26sit down. We must think.
01:31:31We must apply ourselves to these issues.
01:31:36We can't just
01:31:39leap up
01:31:41and start shouting
01:31:44and then again
01:31:46retreat
01:31:49to our
01:31:52passivity.
01:31:56We can't have these
01:32:02episodic explosions
01:32:07in the general consciousness
01:32:09and hope to
01:32:11get something lasting out of them.
01:32:19So
01:32:22start with yourself.
01:32:24Start with your friend circle.
01:32:26Start with your family.
01:32:30First of all, learn to be in solitude.
01:32:32Learn to
01:32:34seriously look at yourself.
01:32:38Then discuss it with
01:32:40those who are around you.
01:32:44See whether
01:32:46the stuff that you have,
01:32:48the stuff that you do,
01:32:50the stuff that you think about is necessary.
01:32:52See what is
01:32:56redundant
01:32:58and see what is missing.
01:33:13Avoid self-deception.
01:33:16You can't be forced to
01:33:20avoid self-deception.
01:33:27One can maybe
01:33:29retreat, maybe
01:33:31plead.
01:33:39That's the fourth way.
01:33:42Doesn't sound very glamorous, does it?
01:33:45You look a bit disappointed.
01:33:48I was rather
01:33:50pondering over the
01:33:52second word that we had
01:33:54in the title, but rather on the other thing
01:33:56that maybe this is the right
01:33:58justice that we can do to ourselves.
01:34:11Justice.
01:34:14The right state of things.
01:34:17Justice is not revenge.
01:34:19Justice has to do with justness.
01:34:22Justness has to do with
01:34:24rightness. The right state
01:34:26of things is justice.
01:34:29Justice can't
01:34:31really be delivered in a courtroom.
01:34:35Of course, the courts do
01:34:37deal with justice, but that's
01:34:39pretty much superficial.
01:34:41Real justice can
01:34:43happen only when
01:34:45you are just to yourself.
01:34:48Do justice to your own life.
01:34:52And then you
01:34:54will probably see that you have a just
01:34:56society where
01:34:58there is little,
01:35:00very little
01:35:02exploitation
01:35:05or subjugation of
01:35:07the
01:35:11disempowered
01:35:13sections.
01:35:18All the nice
01:35:20things will then happen on their own
01:35:24if you can have
01:35:26a fundamental shift
01:35:30at the level of
01:35:32individual consciousness.
01:35:37I don't know how it
01:35:39sounds to you. Obviously, it is not very
01:35:42compelling.
01:35:44But then, do you have an option?
01:35:47Is there something else that you want to try out?
01:35:50Obviously, you can
01:35:52repeat
01:35:54our age-old
01:35:56tricks. But if
01:35:58you repeat those methods,
01:36:00you will also repeat
01:36:02what you have so far obtained from
01:36:04these methods.
01:36:09Thank you.
01:36:23So I think we have
01:36:25very holistically
01:36:27looked at the entire picture.
01:36:31At one hand, we have also seen
01:36:33the entire
01:36:35futility, or rather
01:36:37maybe the shortcomings of the first
01:36:39three ways.
01:36:41And parallelly, we have also seen
01:36:43what the fourth way has to offer.
01:36:45And the best thing about
01:36:47it is that it is something which is very doable
01:36:49because it starts with me.
01:36:51You don't have to depend on somebody else to
01:36:53take the lead. You don't have to
01:36:55depend on
01:36:57favorable
01:36:59circumstances or institutional support.
01:37:01And that is why it is
01:37:03so scary. Because
01:37:05if you don't have to depend on somebody else,
01:37:07then you have nobody else to blame.
01:37:09Because it starts with you.
01:37:11Hence, it
01:37:13becomes very undoable.
01:37:17And it also becomes eminently doable.
01:37:19All depends on your intention.
01:37:23I request, I
01:37:25plead,
01:37:27in your own self-interest,
01:37:29please be
01:37:31intended rightly.
01:37:35.
01:37:37.
01:37:39.
01:37:41.
01:37:43.
01:37:45.
01:37:47.
01:37:49.
01:37:51.
01:37:53.
01:37:55.
01:37:57.
01:37:59.
01:38:01.
01:38:03.
01:38:05.
01:38:07.
01:38:09.
01:38:11.
01:38:13.