Lockerbie.2023.S01e04.Web-Dlockerbie.X264-W4n70ks
Lockerbie.2023
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00You have it in your bedroom, directly opposite your bed.
00:19Yes, yes.
00:20So we see her every morning.
00:21It was painted by Flora's boyfriend's father.
00:25First time I ever saw, he'd finished the painting of her face in his studio, and my
00:32friend's mother said to me before I went in, you know, be careful because you're in for
00:36a shock.
00:38To see Flora's face looking back at me in that studio is something I'll never ever forget
00:43as long as I live.
00:46Absolutely caught her character beautifully, I think.
00:51Showing the forget-me-not as if we could ever forget her.
01:01She was very beautiful and very everything, very everything.
01:07Remembering all the little things from when she was a little tiny toddler, it was wonderful.
01:15What lies behind all this is so simple.
01:19All I was after was the truth about why my lovely daughter had to be murdered, and I
01:26was bloody determined to find out who'd done it.
01:29Can-Am Flight 103 crashed into the Scottish village of Wackerby.
01:37Two hundred and seventy lives lost.
01:39It was Britain's worst ever air crash.
01:41We have no knowledge of how this accident happened.
01:46We're trying to find out.
01:48It was an attack on America.
01:49Largest crime scene in history.
01:51Two hundred thousand pieces of evidence.
01:52My daughter hadn't just died in an accident, but been brutally murdered.
01:56They killed our children.
01:57To be lied to for thirty years.
01:59I think the U.S. government had an agenda.
02:01Reagan is the biggest terrorist in the world.
02:05If it's up to our government, we might not ever know the truth.
02:12Nothing is what it seems in the Lockerbie story.
02:23This particular phase of our search for the truth is almost complete.
02:28That is a tremendous relief, and that's the upside of the decision by the judges to deliver
02:34their verdict so soon.
02:39The court that has heard eighty-four days and three million words of evidence is ready
02:44for the final day of Britain's biggest mass murder trial.
02:48From here, the three Scottish judges will deliver their verdict.
02:52Abdulbaset Ali al-Megrahi, 48, and Laman Khalifa Fima, 44, were both accused of planting the
02:58fatal bomb in a series of luggage transfers.
03:01Prosecution over nine months called over two hundred witnesses, with ten thousand pages
03:06of testimony, pressing its case that these men were Libyan terrorists.
03:11The evidence, even though it was circumstantial, we thought it was very convincing and compelling.
03:22The key issues in evidence were Mr. Megrahi's role in the security services in Libya, his
03:31use of false identities, and his movement around Malta, not only his presence in Malta
03:39on the day of the bombing, his presence in the airport in the morning that the suitcase
03:44containing the bomb was ingested in the flight, his connections with Mr. Bollier, who was
03:51the owner of Meeble Limited, and Meeble Limited were the company who the court concluded had
03:59manufactured the timing device that detonated the bomb.
04:07As far as Fima was concerned, we came up with critical evidence. Fima was the Libyan-Arab
04:17airlines manager here in Malta. Megrahi couldn't have gotten that suitcase in the system without
04:25Fima's help.
04:30The entire Crown case had been based upon conspiracy, and what I can say is that the
04:37evidence surrounding it is highly, highly suspect.
04:41Abdelmajid Jaka is the supergrass billed as the Lockerbie trial's star witness.
04:48We saw the two accused handling a brown suitcase, like the one placed on board Pan Am 103.
04:55He was such a dreadful witness. I mean, for a start, the judges made it clear they didn't
04:59believe really anything he said.
05:03Ganshi was another key figure. He knew that the U.S. Department of Justice was offering
05:11virtually unlimited, certainly millions of dollars to anyone who would give evidence,
05:16so he was motivated to go after that money.
05:22The lack of credible evidence was what converted me to realizing the two accused men clearly
05:29could have had nothing to do with it.
05:38We waited for the judges to come on to the bench to deliver their verdict. We had absolutely
05:45no idea what was going to happen.
05:49The evidence in its totality made it so compelling, but there was no smoking gun.
05:57I can remember holding Phil Reed's hands. We were sitting next to each other, and I
06:02can remember just, we probably squeezed each other extra hard.
06:10The judges had listened to 84 days of evidence, and then today announced their verdict in
06:15less than a minute.
06:18Lamen Khalifa Fima was innocent, they decided. His co-accused, Abdel Basit Ali al-Megrahi,
06:25was guilty of the 270 murders.
06:30The shock of the verdict initially was so great, I collapsed.
06:38I had what's called a vasovagal attack, my heart stopped.
06:42James Swire, who was two rows in front of me, collapsed. At the same time, Mr. Megrahi's
06:49now-widow was very vocal in her distress, as were other family members. So it was instantly
06:55alarming.
06:58When I sort of came round from all this, I said, send for a draught of whisky, and unfortunately
07:05the Scottish doctor wouldn't supply any whisky, quite rightly in retrospect, to somebody
07:10who'd been unconscious for several minutes.
07:17I thought they would both be sent home either not proven, which was a valid decision under
07:23Scottish law at the time, or not guilty.
07:27Do you remain convinced they put the wrong man in prison?
07:32Oh yes. I am now, I would say, 99.9% convinced. I have to leave a little area because we can
07:41always, any of us, be wrong.
07:46The American families at least are pleased that at least someone has been convicted in
07:50this case, although many people are left to wonder how one of the accused could be guilty
07:55and the other not.
07:57The moment in which Megrahi was convicted, but FEMA was left, you know, let go, there
08:04was palpable concern about the decision.
08:09My heart broke when Mr. FEMA was allowed to leave the courtroom, because clearly that
08:14bomb could not have gotten on the plane without his assistance.
08:19We didn't understand that either. But from what I remember, there are some nuances in
08:24Scott's law about corroboration, and I believe it was there his diary could not be corroborated.
08:33It's been a day of conflicting emotions, delight at seeing at least one conviction,
08:38but anger that the sentence isn't longer.
08:42It was such a short sentence because a life sentence in Scotland is 20 years. And it's
08:4820 years for all of your victims. So we were horrified that this was supposed to bring
08:53justice to our loved ones.
08:59By finding Megrahi guilty, we believe that vindicated our findings that this was a Libyan
09:06government operation.
09:10This to me meant this was ordered by Gaddafi, even though that never came to court. It vindicated
09:17us.
09:24This case is very polarized, has been for many, many years. I worked as a researcher
09:31with Megrahi's lawyers. I've been involved in the case for about 30 years. There's very
09:37much two different camps, if you like. One camp believes that justice was done at Camp
09:44Zeist to the extent that Megrahi was convicted. And then there are others who are very skeptical
09:50of the Megrahi conviction, in fact, believe that he was wrongly convicted and believe
09:55that the suspects actually lie outside of Libya.
10:03The camp, if you can call them that, of people who believe that Megrahi was innocent, is
10:09in the minority, undoubtedly. The prevailing view is that Libya and Megrahi were guilty.
10:19This evening, Khalifa Fima headed for Libya. Al Megrahi stayed behind bars. And the quest
10:25for the truth goes on.
10:30Without wishing to impugn the truth of the verdict against Megrahi, I wonder whether
10:45he really did do it.
10:50I could not believe three senior Scottish judges would convict anybody on that evidence.
11:03I wasn't prepared to allow associating a flawless death with anything as untrue and
11:12debasing as the story that was raised by the authorities against those two men. I was very
11:21shaken up psychologically by the fact that I knew that Megrahi was innocent. And the
11:29authorities protected, in effect, her killers.
11:34Jim is a remarkable character. I mean, Jim is, if you like, of the establishment. He's
11:39an old Etonian. He's someone who's conservative with a small C, who was brought up to believe
11:47in British institutions, in fair play. And on his journey, he learns that, actually,
11:56truth and justice don't always come first. He's been lied to, occasionally abused. Yet
12:04throughout it, he has maintained this extraordinarily graceful, gentlemanly demeanour.
12:18Where do you think this extraordinary obsession, where does that come from? Has it always been
12:23in Jim's character?
12:26We've been married over 60 years. And I hadn't noticed it before, but of course, we were
12:33in extreme circumstances, so it does breed extremism. He was appalled to see a wrong
12:41verdict, and he wanted to put it right.
12:44In the same way that Jim was driven by the campaign, what was your response?
12:49Just trying to survive it, one step at a time.
12:58Do you feel Bagrahi is guilty?
13:02That's a very difficult question to answer. I have a lot of unease about information that
13:11I know is out there, but I'm not able to get sight of it for reasons of national security.
13:18And until access to those can be gained, I think the controversy will continue.
13:25So for many people, there are even more questions, rather than less.
13:47Cock, cock, cock, cock, cock.
13:54This is the infamous filing cabinet you were talking about.
13:56That's the infamous filing cabinet. It's all full of Lockerbie stuff.
14:00So this is 35 years of work.
14:03Yes. Sadly, many of the people who helped so much over the 35 years are no longer with us.
14:10The FBI in America said publicly that there could have been no case brought against the Libyans
14:17had it not been for a fragment of circuit board that was recovered from the wreckage.
14:26PT35B is a perfect optical copy of Amiibo circuit board, but it was made by a different technology.
14:35The copper was coated with pure tin, not with tin-lead mixture.
14:44We have material prepared by Bona Fide academic institutions, two of them,
14:50who reviewed the technology used to make the fragment called PT35B,
14:55and they confirmed that it was plated with pure tin,
14:59not with tin-lead mixture.
15:04And therefore, if it was made in any commercial enterprise at all,
15:08it must have been made after 1988.
15:12Nobody in the industry was using pure tin back in 1988.
15:19So do you believe that PT35B is a fake?
15:22Yes.
15:24So do you believe that PT35B is a fake?
15:27Yes.
15:32When I was working on the McGrathy appeal as a researcher with the legal team,
15:40I developed the evidence on the circuit board, I spoke to the relevant experts.
15:45There are a number of anomalies concerning PT35B, concerning its provenance,
15:51that strongly suggest that it was a plant.
15:56Who planted it?
15:59I don't know.
16:05That piece of evidence has been under scrutiny by the trial,
16:09by the Criminal Cases Review Commission on a number of occasions,
16:13and the conclusion at the end is that there is not any weight to attach
16:18to the conspiracy theories around the fragment having been planted.
16:27I honestly believe it's very important for the truth to be out there.
16:32But there are people that doubt what I think the facts are,
16:37and they don't want to believe that anybody in government can tell the truth.
16:42And I will say this, the people who worked on this case, top to bottom,
16:47were honest, forthright, believed in justice, wanted to do the right thing.
16:57Some people call you a conspiracy theorist, how does that make you feel?
17:01You're saying to me also something which is tantamount to saying, but I'm wrong.
17:06Now, I may be wrong. Hang on a minute, hang on a minute.
17:09Maybe I'm wrong.
17:10I don't have the knowledge to say you're wrong.
17:11Hang on just a minute, to the real, the phrase that really matters,
17:16that the key item upon which the whole case depends on, clearly, is not correct.
17:25Can I suggest that if you have another meeting with Mr Mulkey's,
17:29that you copy one little message to him?
17:32And that's a little saying that goes,
17:35There is none so blind as he that will not see.
17:41The evidence that was used in the court to convict Olivian was in fact false.
17:54I am 100% convinced.
17:56Pan Am 103 was brought down by a timer, built in a shop in Zurich, Switzerland, by Meebo.
18:02Absolutely convinced of that.
18:05The fragment that was found here is not from an MSC 13 timer, which was sold to Libya.
18:25The fragment proves, the decisive piece of evidence,
18:31that Libya could be involved in this matter.
18:36Libya and Abdulbaset and FEMA could be involved in this matter.
18:42I was back in the FBI headquarters
18:47and I was shown a brochure with two suitcases full of dollars.
19:01And I was offered this.
19:04If I sign a protocol that this fragment comes from a Libyan-delivered timer,
19:15they can arrange for me to get these four million dollars.
19:20And I can come to America with my family and live in America under a different name.
19:31And it was not my will that Libya would be responsible for this.
19:40He has suggested that I offered him four million dollars.
19:44Did you?
19:45No. God, no.
19:47Initially he said a man by the name of Buck Revell offered it to him.
19:51He never met Buck Revell.
19:53Well, all of a sudden he remembers he met me, so I offered him the money.
19:56No, I did not offer him one cent.
20:00The only thing I can tell you that I did tell him,
20:03you need to tell us everything you know.
20:06You need to tell the truth.
20:09That's the problem. His story kept changing.
20:12It changed at the trial and it's changed subsequent to that.
20:19Edwin Bollier is someone who's shrouded in a lot of mystery.
20:23We've never known which side of the fence he's playing, probably both.
20:30Remember, Mr. McGraw, he has an office in Meebo.
20:36OK, that's another circumstance.
20:39All the circumstances to me amount to a pile, a big pile.
20:53Well, if there's one thing you would be interested in here,
20:56it's a lapel badge that I wore the first time I went to see Gaddafi.
21:06And it just says, Lockerbie, the truth must be known.
21:11And the truth is actually very simple,
21:14but the consequences of trying to conceal the truth are incredibly complex.
21:24You said to us at one point, I think I know who killed my daughter.
21:28Who do you think that was?
21:30I think she was killed by a bomb,
21:33which was ordained by the Iranian authorities.
21:42The motive they had was that they had had an airbus destroyed
21:46by an American missile and 290 people killed.
21:51And therefore they were lusting for revenge.
21:55I have no doubt it was Iran.
21:58I don't say the Iranians personally went and blew up Pan Am.
22:01They used the PFLPGC, one of their client states.
22:06We knew the Iranians were behind all the American and British hostages in Lebanon.
22:12They had been held for the last eight years or more.
22:15I worked on it. I was in Lebanon. I worked on that case.
22:18I think we cut a deal with the Iranians that you give us back all the hostages,
22:22we will drop the focus on you for Pan Am.
22:25Because we knew we were guilty of why the Iranians did it.
22:28They did it in retaliation for us killing 250 of their people.
22:31So we'll go after Libya because we always wanted to go after Libya.
22:37U.S. presidents have hated Qaddafi since he took over in 1969.
22:42He kicked all the American oil companies out of Libya.
22:48I'm not saying, I'm not defending Qaddafi. I'm not saying he's a clean character.
22:51He's got a lot of blood on his hands.
22:55But not the Pan Am blood.
22:59Have you ever heard of Jim Swire?
23:01Yes, that is the first person I phoned from the Lockerbie case.
23:06He was telling me that the Libyans were maybe not responsible
23:10for the treason in Lebanon.
23:12They were trying to get that money.
23:14I don't know how that happened.
23:16I don't know where it came from.
23:18I don't know what it was.
23:20I don't know how they got their hands on that money.
23:23He was telling me that the Libyans were maybe not responsible
23:27for the terrorist attack on a plane that killed my father.
23:45Every time I say that my father was killed in a terrorist attack on a plane,
23:50they say, oh, Lockerbie.
23:52I say, no, but there was another flight, nine months after,
23:56who exploded, UT-772.
24:02There were 170 persons on the flight.
24:09It was, in fact, a bomb, with a timer.
24:21UTA was a French company that was having many flights in Africa.
24:28My father went in the plane in Jamena.
24:33And one hour after takeoff, the plane exploded over Niger.
24:41His name was Jean-Henri, John Henry.
24:45He died at 49, and now I'm 60, so I overtook him.
24:51And it was difficult, when I was 49,
24:55to see that I lived more than my father.
25:05There was a French investigation.
25:10They went in Libya and found evidence
25:14that this explosion was due to a suitcase,
25:18Samsonite, that was on board.
25:23They also found the same luggage in the office of Abdallah Senussi.
25:31Abdallah Senussi is the brother-in-law of Gaddafi
25:35and chief of the secret services of Libya.
25:40And there were 10 other luggage in the office of Senussi.
25:46And he also found the order of 100 timers
25:50that had been ordered by the secret service.
25:58Ten years after the terrorist attack,
26:01we had a trial in abstentia.
26:04We had nobody in court.
26:07So the trial was very short.
26:09It was two days, because, in fact, there was no debate.
26:14There were six Libyans.
26:16Who were the six Libyans put on trial in abstentia?
26:19Only one is important, is Abdallah Senussi.
26:22The other ones were just under the instructions of Abdallah Senussi.
26:29The sentence was the maximum sentence,
26:32but it was bullshit by way,
26:34because they were not there.
26:40Do you believe that your father's flight
26:42and the Lockerbie Pan Am 103 flight are connected?
26:45They are completely connected.
26:47Same perpetrators, same state, same method.
26:50These two flights are completely connected.
27:05I have the three white roses,
27:09Christopher, Matthew, and Ashley,
27:12and my red rose, as always.
27:17If John had to fall out of the sky,
27:20this couldn't have been a better place for him to come down.
27:25I'm sorry.
27:27I'm sorry.
27:29I'm sorry.
27:31I'm sorry.
27:34He was a very proud American of Scottish descent.
27:40Do you ever find yourself looking over to the field?
27:43Oh, yes. Yes.
27:45Because that's where John died.
27:47He was in the nose cone of the plane.
27:54You know, through the years,
27:56you don't get over a loss of this type or this magnitude.
28:01You just learn how to live with it.
28:04And knowing that he is where he is,
28:08here at Tundergarth in Scotland,
28:11among this most beautiful countryside and setting,
28:14you know, it's such a peaceful and serene place.
28:23When I got John back and I viewed him,
28:26I promised to him that I would try to find out who did this
28:30and hold people accountable,
28:32because I know that if I had been on that flight,
28:34he would have done the same thing.
28:39When Al McGrathie was found guilty
28:42as a Libyan official of bringing down Pan Am 103,
28:46the Libyans created a no-fault settlement offer
28:50saying that Libya was not taking responsibility
28:54but was offering $10 million
28:58and that the family members had to sign off
29:01on ever trying to pursue Libya ever again.
29:08I felt that if Libya didn't do it,
29:11they didn't owe me a penny.
29:13And if they did do it,
29:15they shouldn't be forcing us to sign a no-fault settlement deal.
29:20Does Libya accept responsibility for the attack on Lockerbie?
29:25Yes, we wrote a letter to the Security Council
29:28saying that we are responsible for the acts of our employees or people.
29:33But does it mean that we did it, in fact?
29:36So, to be very clear on this,
29:38what you're saying is that you accept responsibility
29:41but you're not admitting that you did it?
29:43Of course.
29:45MUSIC PLAYS
29:53Plain devil's advocate here, there are people who'd say,
29:56if Libya had nothing to do with bombing Pan Am 103,
30:00why did they pay all this compensation?
30:02I think that that's a question that's fairly easily answered.
30:07Qadhafi's son, Saif Qadhafi, told me,
30:11Yeah, we've decided to pay compensation
30:13because that's the only way we can get the ball rolling,
30:16get our oil industry back on stream and get the money coming in again.
30:25Libya desperately wanted and needed
30:28to get its relationship with the West back on track.
30:32In order to do that, they had to admit responsibility for the bombing,
30:37whether or not they did it,
30:38and pay compensation, whether or not they did it.
30:42Whichever camp you fall into,
30:43whether you believe the Libyans did it
30:45or whether you believe that Iran was behind the bombing,
30:48you've always been thwarted by politics.
30:59Tony Blair, in the last days of his time as Prime Minister,
31:03met with Muammar Qadhafi.
31:05And during this meeting, there were two documents signed.
31:09One was a very large British petroleum deal.
31:17And the second was a prisoner transfer agreement.
31:23In Libya, there were no U.K. prisoners,
31:26and there was only one Libyan prisoner in all of the U.K.,
31:31al-Megrahi.
31:35Al-Megrahi was diagnosed with terminal cancer in 2008.
31:43At that point, a lot was going on in the background.
31:47Tony Blair had done his deal in the desert a year earlier.
31:52There was a very strong push to normalize relations with Libya.
31:58And as far as the Libyans were concerned,
32:01if they were going to do any deal about oil,
32:04that deal had to involve Megrahi coming home.
32:22How did you feel when Megrahi was released?
32:25Pissed.
32:27How did you feel when Megrahi was released?
32:30Pissed. And I'd had nothing to drink.
32:33I was angry.
32:37I'm not a big believer in the death penalty,
32:39but I think you need to sit in prison the rest of your life
32:41and think about what you did.
32:44Dressed in a white tracksuit and walking with the aid of a stick,
32:48al-Megrahi said his final goodbyes.
32:52His medical notes describe a man in increasing pain.
32:55According to experts, he has less than three months to live.
33:05To me, I thought, well, I guess this is Scottish justice and everything,
33:10but I found that all pretty appalling.
33:17Libyan television showed the British ambassador telling Tripoli
33:20to keep al-Megrahi's homecoming a low-key affair.
33:26HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WERE BUSED INTO THE EVENT.
33:30SCOTTISH FLAGS WERE PROVIDED.
33:35IT WAS A DECISION TAKEN BY THE SCOTTISH LEGAL SYSTEM.
33:39BUT IT'S CLEAR THE RETURN OF THE BOMBER SUITS MANY PEOPLE.
33:45Out of all the things that have happened since December 21st, 1988,
33:51I would say Megrahi's release was probably one of the hardest things.
34:03His release on compassionate leave was very hard to stomach
34:09because, you know, my father and none of the people on the plane
34:13or on the ground had been treated with any compassion,
34:17so it was a very, very difficult moment.
34:22HE GROANS
34:25I wanted him to go home so he could die with his family
34:30because I knew he was innocent.
34:33And yet he was in Malta Airport the day of the bombing.
34:37I don't blame you for being unable to dissociate yourself
34:41from the superstructure of Frankfurt, Malta, Libyans, Gaddafi.
34:47Why? It all hangs together. One office hops to another.
34:50What if it's far simpler than that?
34:52What if somebody came across to Heathrow,
34:55broke it, put it in the labelled container saying Pan Am
34:59and walked away again? What if?
35:04Heathrow Airport was actually broken into the evening before Lockerbie,
35:09which meant that anybody who was carrying one of these devices in a suitcase
35:13could have been strolling round airside Heathrow
35:16for 24 hours before the disaster happened.
35:21John Bedford was a Heathrow loader.
35:23He was loading the container that was subsequently discovered
35:27to have contained the bomb suitcase.
35:30He went on a tea break.
35:32He came back half an hour later or so
35:35and noticed that there were two suitcases in the container
35:40lying on the floor, one of which was a brown Samsonite type case.
35:46He hadn't put it there himself. He didn't know who put it there.
35:50The only reasonable conclusion we can draw from this
35:54is that the suitcase John Bedford saw was rogue and contained the bomb.
36:02John Bedford did give evidence at the trial
36:04and he was described as an impressive witness,
36:07but the judges dismissed the defence claim
36:12that that suitcase must have contained the bomb.
36:20You worked on McGrathie's appeal,
36:22which suggests you have a particular take on the story.
36:25Yeah, I mean, my primary belief is that McGrathie was wrongly convicted
36:30and wasn't involved in Lockerbie.
36:32It's a very difficult story to navigate through.
36:35There are a lot of agendas, some plain, some hidden.
36:38Everybody's got a slightly different story.
36:41Piecing that together into a reliable narrative is extremely difficult.
36:47This was state-sponsored terrorism.
36:50That's the only thing we definitely know about Lockerbie.
36:54But the full extent of that state-sponsored terrorism
36:58remains under a veil of secrecy.
37:04I believe, as a Libyan citizen,
37:07that McGrathie was used on behalf of the Libyan people.
37:13McGrathie was used on behalf of Gaddafi
37:18to take part in that horrendous crime,
37:22but play a small part.
37:26I think it was a three-way operation.
37:30Iran paid the money.
37:34The French-Palestinian group in Syria
37:37provided the technology and the planning.
37:41And I think Gaddafi provided the facilitation to use the Malta route.
37:47I mean, could you argue that McGrathie didn't help himself at various points?
37:51I mean, he seems to have given several different explanations
37:55as to why he was in Malta at the time the bomb was put on the plane.
37:58McGrathie arguably sealed his own fate.
38:02He told two key lies.
38:04One was that he wasn't associated with Bollier.
38:07The other was that he wasn't in Malta the night before the bombing.
38:11Now, the reason he said he told those lies
38:14was that he was petrified that something he might say
38:18would give the Americans cause to bomb Libya.
38:22It was only five years after the previous bombing raids.
38:26And he didn't know what to do.
38:28He did what he thought was best, which was lie.
38:31The Lockerbie disaster was probably closest,
38:35out of any other sort of legal event,
38:38to the assassination of John Kennedy.
38:41Because the questions over JFK's death have never been answered.
38:48And indeed, the individual that's presented as having caused this,
38:52caused the death, for many people,
38:55they're a small pin in a much bigger, big, bigger hole.
38:59Bigger, big, bigger picture.
39:01Sir McGrathie's the Lee Harvey Oswald.
39:29What kind of day is this? This is the 31st of July.
39:33This is normal for us.
39:35You're in the clouds. You're near heaven.
39:39Our heads are in the clouds.
39:40The last time we were here, one of the things we talked about,
39:44you know, the body that you found still in his seat in the field over there.
39:49Hugh, you talked about how you guys developed a relationship with him.
39:54Right from the start, I think, we called him our boy, you know.
39:58Because he just looked so young.
40:01You know, we felt responsible for him, really.
40:04And we knew he'd be relative somewhere,
40:09saddened by what had happened.
40:12Mm-hm.
40:13But you did eventually find out, didn't you?
40:15Yes, it took quite a while. I don't know how long.
40:18And what was his name?
40:20Frank Tula, yeah.
40:22And we, as I say, we thought he was just a boy.
40:26But he was actually 40, I think.
40:2945.
40:30And that there was a wife called Mary Lou.
40:34We were just keeping hoping they would come, you know.
40:37And then it was arranged she was coming for these ashes.
40:41And that would be her first visit.
40:43So how often have you kept in contact over the last 30 years?
40:47All the time.
40:48Mary Lou always felt it was such a beautiful place for Frank to fall.
40:53I don't know what she'll think today, mind you.
40:56She's never been here on a day like this.
41:04Now a new twist in the quest for justice.
41:07A Libyan man accused of making the bomb
41:09that destroyed a passenger jet over Lockerbie 34 years ago
41:13has been taken into US custody.
41:15Several people are in a critical condition.
41:17I have to start here.
41:20Yes.
41:21It's pretty extraordinary.
41:23One of the biggest developments in 34 years
41:26and we are left spinning, wondering how or what to think.
41:34Abu Aghila Mohammed Massoud, the so-called third man.
41:38He is now in American custody.
41:41I think people are not conflicted, but they are...
41:44I'm not even sure they're divided.
41:46They're just not sure on what to make of it all.
41:49What do you make of the latest development in the story?
41:52Mr. Massoud?
41:54Massoud confessed to building Pan Am 103 device
41:59and putting it on the plane along with FEMA and McGregor.
42:05According to the criminal complaint affidavit,
42:08Massoud built the bomb that destroyed Pan Am 103.
42:15My recollection is we got his name about the same time
42:19as we got McGregor's name.
42:23We were getting cooperation from the CIA.
42:28They probably took it from their cables
42:30as being somebody who was in and out of Malta.
42:37When the Scottish police went to Libya in 1999,
42:41When the Scottish police went to Libya in 1999,
42:44they asked questions.
42:46We want to see the passport records for McGregor.
42:49We want FEMA. We want Massoud.
42:51We don't know who Massoud is.
42:53We can't identify him. Don't know who he is.
42:58If the Libyan government itself had not been involved in this,
43:02perhaps there would have been some cooperation.
43:06Massoud's confession is probably not worth the paper it was written on
43:09Massoud's confession is probably not worth the paper it was written on
43:12because it was given to Libyan security forces
43:15after the downfall of Gaddafi, for which Reid militias.
43:19This was not a confession that was given under circumstances
43:24that would give you confidence in its authenticity.
43:28After 35 years, it's like...
43:31I have friends that actually say,
43:33when is it going to end? I say, it never ends.
43:35You just never stop wanting justice to somehow be served.
43:43The first time that I had any hope to see actual action
43:47The first time that I had any hope to see actual action
43:48was when I got the 3 a.m. e-mail
43:50from the Department of Justice
43:52saying that I was going to be executed.
43:55I got the 3 a.m. e-mail from the Department of Justice
43:58saying that they had apprehended Massoud
44:00and he was on a plane heading to America.
44:04The U.S. apprehension and arrest of Libyan terrorist suspect
44:08Abu Agila Mohammed Massoud
44:11is the first tangible step made by the U.S. Department of Justice
44:16in 34 years to hold any suspect accountable in U.S. courts.
44:25Have we heard from him since he was indicted?
44:27He was brought here a couple of months ago.
44:29We haven't heard a word since.
44:30We haven't heard when the trial date is set.
44:32I think this is just another one of the...
44:34This will go on for months, if not years.
44:43It's cleared a bit right enough, but...
44:46Yeah.
44:48Hi!
44:49Yes, sorry.
44:50Hello!
44:51I'm hungry.
44:53I was just saying I have to show you...
44:55Good to see you.
44:56I have to show you all the pictures from the last few days.
44:58Oh, yes, yes!
44:59We've had a busy, a busy few days.
45:01Push it out.
45:02Come on.
45:03How are you doing?
45:05Good.
45:07Tell me, you guys have obviously built this relationship now,
45:11but what was it like the first time you came here?
45:13When I first met them, I felt like I knew them already.
45:16I mean, really.
45:17They were warm and we hugged and it was OK.
45:23What happened felt so inhumane and felt so violent and horrific.
45:30Oh, and it was.
45:31And it was.
45:32It was.
45:33It was.
45:34But then coming here and seeing this other side of the story,
45:38the humanity came back.
45:40I felt that he was alone somewhere,
45:42and yet when I came here, he wasn't alone.
45:45So that kind of really helped me a lot because he was with them.
45:49Yeah.
45:50He was a different person when I came and a different person when I left.
45:54Mine was actually, and I don't even have to say it, a nice story.
45:57Do you know what I mean?
45:58It was a nice story.
46:00I'm almost very happy I waited those three years to come here.
46:04I just will never forget how you walked to the spot.
46:09You were so confident where to go,
46:12and it was that feeling like how important that place was for you too.
46:17And the spot where his life ended, that's a major part of the story.
46:23And we know where he came to this earth, where he was found,
46:27and we can stand there.
46:29It's stunning.
46:48It's a lovely spot.
46:50It looks right over the sea.
46:56My father and my mother's graves are here,
46:59and a memorial to poor Flora facing theirs.
47:07One of the things that I've always been very aware of since Lockerbie happened
47:11was that hatred for those who had actually carried out the attack
47:15and hatred for those who had actually carried out the atrocity
47:18would be counterproductive.
47:21The question that that left was, well, what can one do about terrorism?
47:27And for me it seems the first thing you can do about terrorism
47:30is find out who the terrorists were.
47:33And even that in this situation has been concealed from the closest relatives.
47:39Justice throughout, whichever view of justice you take in this case,
47:44has been occluded by the geopolitical considerations.
47:59We had to learn to live without her.
48:02I would be walking down the street and I thought I saw her.
48:05You know, getting off a bus or something like that.
48:11It's the turning point of everything.
48:14It's like before Helga and after Helga.
48:22This is John's boarding pass.
48:24It says Pan Am 103, 21st December.
48:27His seat was 3A.
48:30His seat was 3A.
48:33I always felt guilty that I didn't go with him
48:37because I thought that maybe if we had gone
48:40we would have come back the following day together.
48:43But then again, who knows, right?
48:46Who knows?
48:51You're now 87, aren't you?
48:53Yes, if I could remember, I would say yes to that.
48:57I mean, you've spent the last 35 years living this.
49:00No regrets doing that?
49:02Infinite regrets.
49:04The only regret there is, of course, is the loss of Flora.
49:08We are left with a legacy of loss
49:13but also of good memories of a beautiful and beloved child.
49:27A film by
49:31A film by
49:36A film by
49:41A film by
49:46A film by
49:51A film by
49:56A film by
50:01A film by
50:06A film by
50:11A film by