Guest Booker #01 Kevin Sullivan
It’s January of 1984 and the entire WWE has hinged its future on one man. And now he has changed his mind. Hogan has called and he’s not coming. What now?
Join Kevin Sullivan in this remarkable DVD as he sits down in our mock booking office and proceeds to rewrite the year 1984 in the WWE. The task we’ve given him…make 1984 the breakout year it was for the WWE, but without Hogan. Watch as Sullivan books scenario after scenario in the wrestling organization that he has never actually booked for!
Kevin Sullivan is a former booker/wrestler and he now brings his experience and vast knowledge to our booking session in the first edition of Guest Booker!
Hop in our time machine and watch as Sullivan books twelve months of pro wrestling before your eyes. A must-see for the smart fan!
00:00 WWE's 1984 Conundrum: No Hulk Hogan
00:37 Guest Booker: Kevin Sullivan's Task
01:29 Evaluating the WWE Roster
02:03 Strategic Cuts and Key Retentions
04:43 Bringing in New Talent
11:03 Building the 1984 WWE Card
20:17 Booking the Main Event and Beyond
44:01 Intercontinental Title Plans
48:47 Return of the Superstar
49:36 Personal Issues and Drug Problems
51:19 Billy Graham's Wrestling Career
52:14 Booking Matches and Opponents
53:36 The Role of Physique in Wrestling
01:02:11 Tag Team Strategies and Freebirds
01:12:03 National Expansion and Title Switches
01:18:32 Television and House Shows
01:29:49 Building Angles and Sustaining Heat
01:39:00 Final Card for December Show
Join Kevin Sullivan in this remarkable DVD as he sits down in our mock booking office and proceeds to rewrite the year 1984 in the WWE. The task we’ve given him…make 1984 the breakout year it was for the WWE, but without Hogan. Watch as Sullivan books scenario after scenario in the wrestling organization that he has never actually booked for!
Kevin Sullivan is a former booker/wrestler and he now brings his experience and vast knowledge to our booking session in the first edition of Guest Booker!
Hop in our time machine and watch as Sullivan books twelve months of pro wrestling before your eyes. A must-see for the smart fan!
00:00 WWE's 1984 Conundrum: No Hulk Hogan
00:37 Guest Booker: Kevin Sullivan's Task
01:29 Evaluating the WWE Roster
02:03 Strategic Cuts and Key Retentions
04:43 Bringing in New Talent
11:03 Building the 1984 WWE Card
20:17 Booking the Main Event and Beyond
44:01 Intercontinental Title Plans
48:47 Return of the Superstar
49:36 Personal Issues and Drug Problems
51:19 Billy Graham's Wrestling Career
52:14 Booking Matches and Opponents
53:36 The Role of Physique in Wrestling
01:02:11 Tag Team Strategies and Freebirds
01:12:03 National Expansion and Title Switches
01:18:32 Television and House Shows
01:29:49 Building Angles and Sustaining Heat
01:39:00 Final Card for December Show
Category
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SportsTranscript
00:00:00The year is 1984 and the WWE is poised for a national expansion, the likes of which would
00:00:20change the scope of professional wrestling forever.
00:00:24Only now, the man they hired to hang much of that responsibility on isn't coming.
00:00:30Hulk Hogan will not be a part of the WWE in this crucial period.
00:00:34Can the WWE still achieve its height?
00:00:38This is the conundrum we propose to our guest booker, Kevin Sullivan.
00:00:42This series, Guest Booker, will test the skills of Booker's past with hypothetical scenarios
00:00:48as we watch them re-book actual eras in pro wrestling.
00:00:52So let's get started, join Kevin Sullivan and myself in 1984 in New York as kayfabecommentaries.com
00:00:59presents the inaugural edition of Guest Booker.
00:01:15January 1984, here we are, we've got the landscape of the entire world of wrestling in front
00:01:20of us, that's the WWE.
00:01:23We have Florida, Mid-South, AWA, Fritz, Crockets, and Don Owen up in Portland.
00:01:29So the first thing we should do is we should take a look at the roster as it stands in
00:01:34the WWE and see who we want to keep, who we want to get rid of.
00:01:39Of course, for those out there, you have to understand that a booker's job, you need someone
00:01:45to carry the mail.
00:01:46So you need people to work the middle of the card, you need people up top, and you're going
00:01:49to need people on the bottom, so it isn't going to be superstars all the way through.
00:01:55So what are you thinking, who's on the way out for us here in January?
00:02:00For the WWE, Chief J. Strombo and Ivan Putski.
00:02:07I like both of them personally, but the time has come.
00:02:13And this is just business.
00:02:18You've had instances, I'm sure, where you've had to make some friends pretty unhappy with
00:02:23you, and you're able to just kind of separate.
00:02:26Well, you have to if you want to be successful, you know what I mean?
00:02:31It is down to business.
00:02:34And these guys made a great living, they were on top, but the time has come that you want
00:02:40to, and you're starting a new company nationwide.
00:02:47So you want to give it that new sparkle, that's my belief, anyway.
00:02:56I also would look down and see, sometimes you keep a guy because he's good for the dressing
00:03:03room, and sometimes you let a guy go because he's bad for the dressing room.
00:03:08Well, I like David Schultz personally, but you know what's going to happen.
00:03:13So, he'd have to go.
00:03:21Tiger Chung Lee would have to go.
00:03:30So who on that list do you think would be a good veteran to leave around, if for nothing
00:03:35else but to kind of be, to function as the elder statesman in the dressing room and for
00:03:41the younger guys?
00:03:42Well, you know, at this time, again, you have Lou Albano, so Lou had just come off the TV
00:03:51too with Cindy, or was just getting ready to, you know what I mean?
00:03:54Right, they were just getting ready to do that.
00:03:56He had that in the works, and Lou's good for the dressing room.
00:04:02Tito carries himself excellent.
00:04:06Paul Orndorff is a leader in the dressing room.
00:04:10The masked superstar.
00:04:12Fuji's great to have in the dressing room, keeps it alive.
00:04:15Murdock was great.
00:04:17So I would keep almost everybody else here.
00:04:20Who are your policemen there?
00:04:22Who are your cops?
00:04:24When you say policemen?
00:04:25Yeah, keep order.
00:04:26If anyone comes in and gets a little, wants to get a little, go into business for themselves,
00:04:33wasn't there somebody usually who would kind of keep order in the dressing room as far
00:04:37as that should be?
00:04:38No.
00:04:39I never saw that.
00:04:40Okay.
00:04:41All right.
00:04:42So that's our roster there.
00:04:43Okay.
00:04:44Now, let's bring some people in from around the country.
00:04:45Yeah.
00:04:46Now, I mean, you know, again, this is when we first started, and we're talking about
00:04:53Barry Wyndham.
00:04:54Barry Wyndham, at that time, was the best baby face in the country, so Barry Wyndham
00:04:59would come in.
00:05:00And this is Florida we're looking at here.
00:05:05Yeah.
00:05:06And you'd have to bring Dusty in as Dusty, not the polka dots.
00:05:15Because at that time, Dusty had been selling out the gardens, and Backman was headlining
00:05:22them.
00:05:23Dusty and Superstar were selling them out in strap matches and death matches and regular
00:05:28matches.
00:05:29Now, you, in real life, were in Florida at the time, A4?
00:05:34Yeah.
00:05:36Would Dusty have come?
00:05:37Would Dusty have left Florida and gone to Vince?
00:05:42Probably not, because he was running it.
00:05:45Probably not.
00:05:46But, I mean, if I was going to take somebody, I would have taken him.
00:05:57And Mulligan would go.
00:05:58One of the greatest talkers of all times.
00:05:59And you'd have to take Rotunda, because Rotunda can wrestle and can fill a great spot on the
00:06:14card.
00:06:15Would you have put him with Barry?
00:06:16No.
00:06:17Like Vince did?
00:06:18No.
00:06:19No.
00:06:20Keep them separate?
00:06:21No.
00:06:22Okay, so we go to the Mid-South.
00:06:29I would have taken Dr. Death, Steve Williams.
00:06:34I would have taken Duggan, Butch Reed, Junkyard Dog, I guess I'm on the list, Chavo, Guerrero,
00:06:54because of the Hispanic market.
00:06:56Right.
00:06:57That's true.
00:06:58I always knew there was a big Hispanic market.
00:07:01I was the first guy in to bring the Luchados, and I was the first guy to bring the Mexicans
00:07:05in.
00:07:06Especially New York, too.
00:07:07It isn't just New York.
00:07:08No, I know what you're saying.
00:07:09Especially in this case, that would have been huge.
00:07:10Yeah.
00:07:11Denver.
00:07:12That's true, too.
00:07:13Denver, yeah.
00:07:14Denver, Chicago.
00:07:15Yeah, all your big cities.
00:07:16All your major cities.
00:07:17And I would have brought Duggan in, too.
00:07:18I would have brought Duggan.
00:07:20Yeah, Vern.
00:07:26Who is he losing?
00:07:37He would have lost Laine and Kern.
00:07:41Those are the fabulous ones.
00:07:47Randy Savage, Mr. Saito, Superstar Graham, Rick Rude, Bobby Heenan.
00:08:15Howard Crockett, Steve Youngblood, Ivan Koloff because of the name of who he was, Gary Hart
00:08:37as a manager, Orton Jr. Slater as a team, that was one of the best tag teams of all
00:08:49times, Ernie Ladd, I bring Ernie in, and this would be Ernie's last run but I would get
00:08:58something out of Ernie, I get a lot of knowledge, a leader in the dressing room, a smart guy
00:09:06and they never really capitalized on his football career in New York, they should've, they should've.
00:09:20W's, Fritz, well you have to take Carey, you have to take David, you have to take Jimmy
00:09:32Garvin, Terry Gordy, Michael Hayes, the missing link, and in Portland, Carter Henning, Siva
00:10:01Arthur, and I'll tell you why, I've looked down this list over here, Vince doesn't have
00:10:13a Samoan, there's more Samoans in San Francisco than there are in Samoa, there's more Samoans
00:10:20in Honolulu than there are in Samoa, Portland has a huge Samoan population, Vancouver has
00:10:27a huge Samoan, he'd be good for the Pacific Rim and the West Coast.
00:10:32Would you put him with Offa and Sika, who worked in there at the time?
00:10:36No, no, because I'd make him a babyface, and Buddy Rose, alright so that's what we look
00:10:49like now.
00:11:03Alright so we're going to do 12 months now with the heavyweight title, without Hogan
00:11:07we have the title on The Sheik, and as the booker and the man with Vince's ear, what
00:11:15are we going to do?
00:11:18The best, one of the best heels I ever saw in my life was Paul Orndorff, and one of the
00:11:26best babyfaces of all time was Ricky Steamboat, so you have Steamboat beat The Sheik.
00:11:35Quick right away, January, like they did it with Hogan, or is it not going to be a transitional
00:11:40thing like they had intended The Sheik to be, what would you do with that?
00:11:44See again, this is 84, it's cut and dry, there's babyfaces and heels, there's no Tweeners
00:11:56and there's no Steve Austin, there's babyfaces, so it's really babyface and heel.
00:12:04This territory was designed by Vince's father to be a babyface territory.
00:12:12So going nationwide, I always thought people paid to see the heel get beat, not the babyface
00:12:25to lose.
00:12:26So if you have a babyface, but Paul Hogan proved that theory wrong, but Hogan came along
00:12:34when the stars were lined up perfectly, everything worked perfect, so we're going to go back
00:12:39to what worked traditionally.
00:12:43So I would take the belt off of The Sheik, we'll say he would keep it January, but I
00:12:54would really push Steamboat, and then I'd put the belt on him in February.
00:13:01So we saw Steamboat push on TV in January.
00:13:08Is there any logic to any point in the calendar year doing certain things with titles?
00:13:14Do things work better in the winter than they do in the summer because of school or whatever?
00:13:18Right.
00:13:19Your two worst months are May and September.
00:13:23Kids are getting out of school in May and they're going back to school in September.
00:13:27And again, this is 84, hardcore audience, kids.
00:13:33So we're going to lose those two months, basically, to the kids except the big shows.
00:13:39So we get the change in before May.
00:13:41We get the change in before May.
00:13:46I would go March.
00:13:50Okay, so the push and then the change.
00:14:02And at that same time when you're pushing Steamboat, you're pushing Wanda from the other
00:14:06side as a heel.
00:14:17Where do they collide?
00:14:18Is it an angle that starts it?
00:14:20How do you get the most out of your money for that?
00:14:22Well, are we going to go for the pay-per-view?
00:14:24No, nothing yet.
00:14:25Nothing yet.
00:14:2685.
00:14:27So we're not going for the pay-per-view?
00:14:28No.
00:14:29You could do a big, what they would do is the big stadium shows, like they had the Shea
00:14:36Stadium shows and stuff.
00:14:38So if you wanted to build up to a big pay-off, you know, a big gate, you know, try to get
00:14:4250,000 people in a stadium or something, that would work.
00:14:49I would let Steamboat keep that belt and I'd start now also aligning Barry as a babyface
00:15:06and getting Barry over.
00:15:10So Barry has somebody to work with and Barry and Orndorff would steal the shows.
00:15:18Work against each other?
00:15:19Yeah.
00:15:20So they would start stealing the shows.
00:15:21So now you have Orndorff and Barry working.
00:15:29You have Steamboat as your champion.
00:15:34Would you feed him anyone to kind of, in the interim, while you're building up Orndorff
00:15:39on the one side, who are you feeding Steamboat to reinforce his...
00:15:44The thing about Steamboat is he could have a match with a broomstick.
00:15:51The guy here that he would have an incredible match with would be Morocco.
00:15:58So you'd have Morocco and Steamboat.
00:16:05So already if I'm looking at going to house shows, I got Steamboat and Morocco and Orndorff
00:16:16and Wyndham, four great workers, four great looking athletes.
00:16:23So now I'm starting to sell to the kids the superheroes.
00:16:31So now I would go down and open the card.
00:16:36If I'm building a card, we're going to build a card.
00:16:41My belief was the first match was almost as important as the last because that sets the
00:16:46tone for the night.
00:16:48If the match is the shits, it's hard to follow.
00:16:53When I worked, I always wanted the guy in front of me to steal the show because the
00:16:59stealing would be a lot.
00:17:01Get the blood flowing in the fans.
00:17:02Yeah.
00:17:03And if the match starts, the first match starts.
00:17:08And this is what's funny.
00:17:09The guidance...
00:17:10Did you go to the guidance?
00:17:11Yeah, sure.
00:17:12Okay.
00:17:13Traditionally, the people didn't show up until third match.
00:17:16Right.
00:17:17Well, I would have put something on the first match.
00:17:18They said, shit, we should have been here.
00:17:20You missed it, yeah.
00:17:21I missed it.
00:17:23Because I believe you lost some of the audience because by that time, if you're going to go
00:17:31and you figure, well, we're going to go and catch the third match like we usually do.
00:17:37Yeah.
00:17:38Well, I'm into that silky vodka or whatever it is for an off-strike, I don't know.
00:17:43Extra smooth.
00:17:44Extra smooth.
00:17:45Okay.
00:17:46Oh, well, maybe we'll let it go.
00:17:50If I came to the show next time and someone says, you should have saw that first match.
00:17:55It was one of the best matches I've ever seen.
00:17:57Shit, no.
00:17:58I knew it would go.
00:17:59Who could have done that?
00:18:00Who would you have over in the show?
00:18:01I would take...
00:18:02Looking on the sky, I would take and...
00:18:12Even though he would have liked it and he would have bitched like a son of a bitch and
00:18:15I would have to baby him the whole way through and tell him how important he was.
00:18:21Dick Murdoch was one of the greatest workers of all times.
00:18:25I would have had Murdoch.
00:18:29Let's do a show in April at Madison Square Garden here.
00:18:32We're going to put Murdoch up front, first match.
00:18:39I put Murdoch against somebody I knew he wouldn't lay down because he's on the first match.
00:18:49I'd take another great worker and an athlete, Dr. Steve Williams, and I'd have to do some
00:18:56heavy explaining to them why they're opening the show.
00:19:01But in my line of thinking is that if this is the opening of the show, the people are
00:19:07buzzing.
00:19:08If this was the opening match, can you imagine what's coming?
00:19:12So we're going to book seven or eight matches, do you want?
00:19:15Give me the show.
00:19:16Okay, let's book seven or eight matches.
00:19:20Then I would have to go with...
00:19:26We have the tag teams and the tag teams traditionally were on at the end of the night when they
00:19:34first started.
00:19:35And they used to put the main event on early.
00:19:39I didn't like that.
00:19:40The main event is the main event.
00:19:43That was a holdover from the 50s when Buddy Rogers wanted to get out of the building.
00:19:47Get out of the building?
00:19:48Oh, okay.
00:19:49Yeah.
00:19:50Okay?
00:19:51Didn't Hogan have a little bit of that too?
00:19:52He wanted to get out of there?
00:19:53Sometimes you'd work two cities too, I know that happens sometimes.
00:19:56But they kept that tradition because it became a habit and no one realized why they had that
00:20:03habit.
00:20:04Gotcha.
00:20:05So we know the first match and then we know our seventh and eighth match.
00:20:15You want to put your main event last?
00:20:17Yeah.
00:20:18My main event is going to be...
00:20:19And it's going to be Steamboat Morocco?
00:20:20Morocco and Orndorff and Wyndham.
00:20:29Wyndham and Orndorff right before that?
00:20:32Yeah.
00:20:33And then we're going back and Morocco is not the Intercontinental Champion.
00:20:39Okay, right.
00:20:40That's true.
00:20:41Okay.
00:20:42So he's not the Intercontinental Champion at this time.
00:20:46Okay.
00:20:47Okay?
00:20:48We'll have that happen when we do the Intercontinental guys.
00:20:51Just remember we have to have them drop it before April.
00:20:54Yeah.
00:20:55Okay, so the tag teams, you were saying the placement of the tag teams in the card.
00:21:00Okay.
00:21:01We've got fabulous ones coming.
00:21:02We've got...
00:21:03We have Saito here now so you can put him in Fuji.
00:21:06What are you thinking?
00:21:08I would put the fabulous ones against the Freebirds on third.
00:21:15Again, you know, what a great team, okay?
00:21:23And then on fourth, I would have Blackjack Mulligan versus Ivan Koloff.
00:21:38Okay, you know you're going to have a rugged match there.
00:21:43It's old school.
00:21:44You've got a former world champion and a guy everybody knows, I don't know how many times
00:21:50at that time, had been tag team champions with Lonzo, okay?
00:21:54And he had wrestled everybody for the title.
00:21:56Right.
00:21:57Okay, on our sixth match, and this is the Gardens, we're going to have Andre.
00:22:08And I'd put Andre against Big John Stunt.
00:22:15Okay?
00:22:18After the fourth match, I would put a Piper's Pit.
00:22:26Did you like that concept?
00:22:27Did you like how he did the pit?
00:22:29Yes, I did.
00:22:30Very much so.
00:22:31I mean, people still talk about the coconut.
00:22:33Yeah.
00:22:34Right?
00:22:35Yeah.
00:22:36So, I would have him...
00:22:39Look at this goddamn card, by the way.
00:22:42Jesus.
00:22:44To get Roddy over, him being so quick, and if this was his first time, I'd put somebody
00:22:53out there that couldn't match what's with Roddy.
00:22:57So Roddy could really get over.
00:22:59Any suggestions?
00:23:00I am Mike Sharp.
00:23:11Okay.
00:23:12So now, all I have to do is fill in that second match.
00:23:18And the second match, we want to start out hot.
00:23:24Then the Freebirds and the Fabulous Ones will have a hot finish.
00:23:31And we're going to break away from the standard thing they used to do of count outs, like
00:23:37when you put Golov and Mulligan together.
00:23:41Okay?
00:23:42That was an easy way out.
00:23:44Nobody has to think of a finish.
00:23:46With these two guys, you get in the room and you say,
00:23:50I need Mulligan to get over.
00:23:53Tell me how to do it.
00:23:55And they'll come up with a great finish.
00:23:58You can give them suggestions.
00:24:00You can point them in the right direction.
00:24:02But nobody knows how to get this finish over like they're going to.
00:24:06More than likely, you know, he'll go for the claw.
00:24:10Get the claw stuck.
00:24:12We'll go for something.
00:24:14And they'll have no referee bumps.
00:24:16Let's get rid of referee bumps.
00:24:18They're never going to see a referee bump.
00:24:20Okay.
00:24:21Until the title switch.
00:24:23Okay.
00:24:24There's never a referee bump.
00:24:26Okay?
00:24:27Because they'll abuse it if they overuse.
00:24:29Everything.
00:24:30Everything.
00:24:31And that's what happened, I believe, when they went to big shows.
00:24:33When they had two stars, they thought, well,
00:24:36we can't have either one of them lose.
00:24:38Well, somebody has to lose and somebody has to win.
00:24:42They did it too often, wouldn't you say, in New York?
00:24:44Too often.
00:24:45And the count outs and the 20 instead of 10, you know.
00:24:50And it was formulaic, too.
00:24:51You know you're getting the same thing.
00:24:53The first month they met, you're going to get a DQ.
00:24:55So then the next time they come in, you have a no DQ match,
00:24:58you get a count out.
00:24:59And then the third month, you get the blow off in the cage.
00:25:01The garden became kind of formulaic with Backlund and Hogan that way.
00:25:05Now, are you going to put any juice on this card?
00:25:08Who's going to leave the mat stand here?
00:25:11Now, this is our first show, right?
00:25:14Well, this is a show somewhere in the midst of this angle.
00:25:18We've already established Steamboat a little bit.
00:25:21He's taken the title.
00:25:23So we're in April.
00:25:24We're four months in.
00:25:25The guy that's going to get the juice is Barry Windom.
00:25:27Nobody bleeds better than Barry.
00:25:29And he's going to get owned off over by bleeding.
00:25:32So that's the only juice on the card.
00:25:35How are you going to keep Koloff's head from opening up?
00:25:37Even by accident?
00:25:38Crazy glue?
00:25:39Yeah, I guess so.
00:25:40But on the second match, we want him at this time, it's 1984,
00:25:47and he's 195 pounds and can fly the Tongan kit.
00:25:55And you're going to put him over?
00:25:56Yeah.
00:25:57And I'm going to put him over.
00:26:02Let me see.
00:26:03Who else we got here?
00:26:13I'm going to put him over Kurt Hennig.
00:26:22But Kurt's going to get heat after the match.
00:26:28Now, if you look at that card, it's Murdock and Williams,
00:26:33two athletes and great workers.
00:26:35It's Tongan kit that can fly and Hennig that can carry him through the match.
00:26:39And Kurt knew how to do everything right.
00:26:41And Kurt will get as much heat afterwards.
00:26:44He doesn't have to beat the kids.
00:26:49We're going to have the Freebirds screw the fabulous ones.
00:26:53We're going to have Mulligan beat Goldhoff.
00:26:58We got the pick in my chop, and that should be great.
00:27:02Then we have Andre going over.
00:27:05Then we have Wundorf beating Barry.
00:27:08Then we have Steamboat slipping over Morocco.
00:27:13We got one blood there, and it's the guy that's going to be the world's champion,
00:27:18getting it on Barry.
00:27:22Because down the line, we're putting the belt on Wundorf.
00:27:28So besides that card, in my mind, I'm leaving guys off,
00:27:33but you only can have eight, we'll say.
00:27:36I've taken some of the best workers in the business,
00:27:43and we've given them a great show.
00:27:49But the guy that's going to be the champion
00:27:51is the only guy that really got the juice on somebody.
00:27:56So Barry will bleed until it's in his boots.
00:28:00So they're going to say, Jesus, that Wundorf's something.
00:28:04And they're going to start talking, boy.
00:28:06I wonder what happens when he meets Steamboat.
00:28:09So we're booking out that way.
00:28:12So when that switch happens, how are we going to do that switch?
00:28:15How is Wundorf going to get the belt from Ricky?
00:28:19What we'll do is we'll use, now again,
00:28:23our plan is the same thing on television, correct?
00:28:28We'll get a Piper's Pit.
00:28:30Rather than it being the angle that we still remember,
00:28:37and if they could still do it, we'd suck up.
00:28:41We're going to do the angle with Wundorf and Steamboat.
00:28:47And it's going to be the first heavy angle done.
00:28:51Up until that time, Piper's getting over with his talk.
00:28:56He's going to have his nimble tongue,
00:29:01marvel people, and he'll get himself over.
00:29:08What's his role going to be in the whole thing?
00:29:10Is he just kind of a bystander to the incident between Orndorff,
00:29:15or is he going to kind of function with Orndorff,
00:29:18holding him down, holding Steamboat down?
00:29:20Well, if we're projecting that far out, which we want to do,
00:29:28we're going to drop hints, like I talked to you about,
00:29:31the one guy that had the thing, put it in,
00:29:33we're going to drop hints during the Piper's Pit,
00:29:36as Piper's knocking everybody,
00:29:38the only guy he puts over occasionally is Orndorff.
00:29:42You know, boy, I like my shot at him,
00:29:44but whoa, gee, he's a toughie, you know, that kind of thing.
00:29:48And then when we do get Ricky down on Piper's Pit,
00:29:55who comes out to save Ricky but another one of the brothers, Jimmy Slicker.
00:30:01And then they do the angle with the coconut, and we have a double angle.
00:30:06Right.
00:30:07You could tag team that all over the place.
00:30:09Yeah.
00:30:12And we can run that angle as a tag team.
00:30:16Rather than the world champion having to defend the belt every month,
00:30:19you can come back and build up, you know, in a tag match for a couple of months.
00:30:28You can have the first month Orndorff slip over Snooker.
00:30:39The second month Orndorff could slip over Ricky.
00:30:45In the third month, you can have Orndorff go over in the championship match.
00:30:52With Piper's help, I guess back to almost like the original card that they had,
00:31:01for Piper, Orndorff, and Orton.
00:31:04Right, that's true.
00:31:06But knowing that Hulk isn't coming, you've got the belt on Orndorff.
00:31:13Now, again, I'm going to go back to where the territory was.
00:31:19Our best months are the winter months in the northeast.
00:31:24So we get the belt on Orndorff in August, right, on a big show.
00:31:29We know September's going to be down.
00:31:32He doesn't have to defend the belt in the gardens then,
00:31:36but we can get another babyface over and hot and challenge him.
00:31:41And then we've got October, November, and September, we're ready to roll again.
00:31:45Right.
00:31:46How does he take the strap?
00:31:49Is it a screw job?
00:31:50Right in the middle of the ring.
00:31:51Right in the middle of the ring.
00:31:53Hits the finisher and pins him.
00:31:55That's it.
00:31:57People want to see winners and losers, in my estimation,
00:32:03and screw jobs are done way too often.
00:32:10And the thing is, James and I have talked about this,
00:32:15I'm a history buff.
00:32:17And most people don't understand history.
00:32:20And the reason why I make the same mistakes in the world
00:32:24is because I don't understand history.
00:32:26I make the same mistakes in the wrestling business
00:32:29because we don't understand the history of the wrestling business.
00:32:32The history of the wrestling business was,
00:32:35promoter didn't have a book before television.
00:32:38You know, he would book, have a matchmaker,
00:32:40and he'd match the matches himself.
00:32:42He'd tell the guys, well, I'd like you over.
00:32:45Well, James would say, well, hey, can't we do something else?
00:32:51All right, yeah, we'll talk to the other guys.
00:32:53You guys work something out.
00:32:55So if James and I are going to work on a finish,
00:32:58and James doesn't want to do the finish,
00:33:00and doesn't want to put me over,
00:33:02and James and I are friends,
00:33:05we're going to work something out.
00:33:08It doesn't do anything for anybody.
00:33:10One of the things people forget is,
00:33:13if two people are out there,
00:33:15one's got to go away a winner,
00:33:20and even though he wins,
00:33:22the other guy doesn't have to look back.
00:33:25Because we're having Henning put over the Tonga Kid.
00:33:29But after that match, Henning's going to get heat.
00:33:32He's a heel.
00:33:34People will be booing the shit out of Henning
00:33:37because he's going to really kick the shit out of the kid.
00:33:40They'll forget he lost.
00:33:43But a title,
00:33:47if it was what we once said it was,
00:33:50it was sacred, right?
00:33:52It's the holy grail.
00:33:53It's the holy grail.
00:33:56If it was the holy grail,
00:33:58we would treat it like the holy grail.
00:34:01We would cover it.
00:34:03We wouldn't let it get scratched.
00:34:05We wouldn't tarnish it.
00:34:06We wouldn't be pissing in it.
00:34:10So there's winners and losers.
00:34:13Until I'd say
00:34:27some promoters,
00:34:28and I don't want to say names,
00:34:29but in the history of the wrestling business,
00:34:31some promoters got more powerful in the NWA than others.
00:34:35And because of their power they had,
00:34:37they'd be on the executive board.
00:34:39Their boy, when the champion came,
00:34:42they'd go an hour.
00:34:43That was their out, right?
00:34:45You went an hour with the champion.
00:34:47Well, do you really want to sit and watch something for an hour?
00:34:51Would you want to watch a movie with Silence of the Lambs
00:34:55for two hours and there's no finish to it?
00:34:59You know, Hannibal never gets out of jail.
00:35:03What was the point?
00:35:05There's no chairing, there's no destination.
00:35:07We sat there for an hour.
00:35:08Yeah, we were entertained,
00:35:11disguised the world champion.
00:35:13And it doesn't hurt.
00:35:16And that's what their mentality was.
00:35:18We have to protect our interest.
00:35:23And because of that,
00:35:25that's why I said they couldn't agree to lunch.
00:35:28We got to protect our interest rather than seeing the big picture.
00:35:31We need to protect the world title.
00:35:35How many times did you ever hear when you were growing up?
00:35:37I did too when I was a kid.
00:35:38Oh, wrestling's all fake, but the world champion's match is real.
00:35:42Right?
00:35:44I remember when I was a kid, Bruno was the champion.
00:35:47Everybody used to say,
00:35:48Oh, wrestling's fake, but Bruno's real.
00:35:51Wow.
00:35:52Bruno's real and everybody else is fake.
00:35:59But it was protected, you know what I mean?
00:36:02And then what happened was,
00:36:05again, I just want to say this.
00:36:08Compromise tarnished the title.
00:36:10So here we go back from the very beginning and can start.
00:36:15So there's winners and losers.
00:36:17And if your world champion puts Orndorff over in the middle of the ring
00:36:25with the pile driver,
00:36:27I mean, they can have a finish that comes a great false finish,
00:36:30false finish, false finish.
00:36:32Rick goes to do something.
00:36:34Paul collapses.
00:36:35He hits the turnbuckle.
00:36:36He turns around.
00:36:37Paul just staggers up and boom.
00:36:40And he falls back on him.
00:36:41One, two, three.
00:36:42But he's still got the finish.
00:36:44If your world champion can put a guy over in the middle of the ring,
00:36:47it's going to be hard for the rest of that dressing room to tell you
00:36:49they're not going to put somebody over.
00:36:51Yeah, that's true.
00:36:53So if the precedent started there,
00:36:55it goes through the dressing room.
00:36:59And so that's how I would start.
00:37:02And I would keep the belt on Orndorff.
00:37:05You would keep it the rest of the year?
00:37:07He would keep it until I could see another guy replacing him.
00:37:13Now, of course, if it didn't draw, but I think Orndorff would have drawn.
00:37:19James and I had this conversation yesterday, right, James?
00:37:22I said the funny thing was I would have put the belt on Orndorff
00:37:25and had Hogan chase him.
00:37:27It didn't matter because it turned out winner anyway.
00:37:30But it could have been maybe even bigger.
00:37:32Who knows?
00:37:33But that's hindsight.
00:37:34But Orndorff would be my guy,
00:37:37and I'd go with him as long as I could
00:37:43and as hard as I could,
00:37:45and he would...
00:37:47You got a whole town of great baby faces to go to from...
00:37:51He could work with Duggan.
00:37:53They had a great series of matches with Duggan himself.
00:37:56Butch Reed, Junkyard Dog.
00:37:59I mean, it goes on and on.
00:38:00Dusty.
00:38:02And Orndorff could have an incredible match.
00:38:06Now you get...
00:38:08You've opened up.
00:38:10On the first card,
00:38:12Paul's busted, Barry opened.
00:38:14His dad just beat the ex-world champion.
00:38:18His dad comes down and says,
00:38:20Hey, you're beating up my boy.
00:38:21You think you're that tough?
00:38:23So you can have...
00:38:25So you wouldn't kayfabe the relationship?
00:38:27Vince did that for their entire tenure there together.
00:38:29You wouldn't put that out there?
00:38:30Yeah.
00:38:31Because everybody knew.
00:38:32I mean, they tried to make it like
00:38:34there was no other wrestling but WWE.
00:38:39But, okay, maybe there wasn't,
00:38:42but the Florida tape came in here.
00:38:47All the people watched Florida.
00:38:49Sure, yeah, we were able to.
00:38:50Cable was coming in now, so we were getting...
00:38:52Okay, so you knew there were.
00:38:54The magazines.
00:38:56So you were trying to do the ostrich,
00:38:59put your head in the sand.
00:39:00I think you could have got a lot more mileage
00:39:02out of them being father and son.
00:39:04They didn't have to tag up all the time,
00:39:05but certainly it's a great way to have Mulligan,
00:39:10who can talk as well as anybody
00:39:12who's ever been able to talk in the business,
00:39:14be tagged up with a son
00:39:16who's one of the greatest babyfaces of all times,
00:39:18who does the selling,
00:39:19and the father makes the comeback.
00:39:22You know?
00:39:23So you've opened up the next week.
00:39:25You've opened up with another match
00:39:28where now you could have Mulligan the next month.
00:39:33You could have Mulligan against Orndorff
00:39:35because that means something right there.
00:39:40Tag him out and put Orndorff with somebody.
00:39:42Yeah.
00:39:44Or just put Mulligan against Orndorff
00:39:47and get Orndorff over Mulligan.
00:39:53He would do it because he'd just be
00:39:55a pull-off of the guards.
00:39:58And so Orndorff would be your guy
00:40:00through the winter business?
00:40:01Yeah.
00:40:02Because I think Paul,
00:40:05through the winter,
00:40:07would draw with anybody.
00:40:09You've already have lined him with Piper and Snooker.
00:40:13Orndorff and Snooker would be an incredible match.
00:40:18Steamboat and Piper would be an incredible match.
00:40:22Yeah.
00:40:23And then Morocco is still in the mix.
00:40:25You know, we're not going to disrupt these guys.
00:40:27They're still in the mix.
00:40:28The tag matches now become interesting.
00:40:31Dossi's there for special matches,
00:40:33you know, bull rope matches.
00:40:35You have superstar Graham
00:40:37who is an icon.
00:40:39And what a match you could have
00:40:42in the gardens with Orndorff and Billy Graham.
00:40:47I mean, the poster alone should sell out.
00:40:50Right?
00:40:51So you'd use Billy as a face?
00:40:53Yeah.
00:40:54Because he was a face here anyway.
00:40:56The only time he was a heel,
00:40:57he was a World Heavyweight Champion.
00:40:59He was the first guy that was a heel to be cheered.
00:41:04And the only time he was ever a heel here,
00:41:07and it was split 50-50,
00:41:08he really worked with Dossi.
00:41:10But the more they put Billy as a heel,
00:41:13the bigger baby face he became
00:41:15because no one had seen him in this time.
00:41:18And I happened to be here then.
00:41:20Nobody had seen a heel talk like superstar Billy Graham.
00:41:23And everybody wanted to be superstar Billy Graham.
00:41:25He looked great.
00:41:27So I mean, that poster, Orndorff and Graham,
00:41:30at the gardens,
00:41:32I mean, all you need is a few other things
00:41:36and that would sell out automatically, I think.
00:41:42And then you have,
00:41:45and then if we travel around the country,
00:41:48you have Orndorff and Junkyard Dog,
00:41:51Reed and Duggan for the Mid-South, okay?
00:41:56The other thing is,
00:41:57Orndorff's a Florida boy,
00:41:59so if you went to Florida,
00:42:00he's with Dossi, he's with Barry,
00:42:02he's with Mulligan.
00:42:04You're going to sell out.
00:42:07So when you go to the West Coast,
00:42:10you get Chavo.
00:42:13And then you have Siva Afa for San Francisco,
00:42:18with Orndorff.
00:42:19He'd have a great run in Texas with all the Von Eriks.
00:42:22All the Von Eriks.
00:42:23And the Von Eriks were pretty big.
00:42:25What a lot of people don't know is
00:42:27the Von Eriks came up to Boston
00:42:30and to a stadium.
00:42:32I'm going to say it was 85.
00:42:34It was right outside of Boston.
00:42:36It was in Revere.
00:42:39A saugust, saugust.
00:42:42And they drew like 30,000 people.
00:42:45Wow.
00:42:46So, I mean, Orndorff against Kerry,
00:42:50there's another.
00:42:52I mean, so, that's why.
00:42:55And the thing about Paul was
00:42:57if you watched him work,
00:42:59he was really,
00:43:01he could kick it into another gear
00:43:03most workers can't do.
00:43:05His talk was intense,
00:43:07he looked intense, he looked the part.
00:43:08He looked like a world champion.
00:43:10Paul looked like a cartoon character in the face,
00:43:13you know, with the big block chin.
00:43:15He looked like Pat Tillman.
00:43:17He looked like an athlete.
00:43:19So he would be the guy I'd go with.
00:43:21And eventually, in my head,
00:43:23eventually,
00:43:26the people would turn Paul.
00:43:28Oh, you think?
00:43:29Yeah, eventually because after a while,
00:43:31when a heel is over like Paul would be,
00:43:33it'd be like Dusty when he was a heel.
00:43:36Dusty was over so well
00:43:39that eventually the people would turn him.
00:43:42But that's the end of the day.
00:43:44But I would go with him as my heel.
00:43:46Through 84.
00:43:47Yeah.
00:44:00So we got our heavyweight race through 84,
00:44:04the other major title in New York
00:44:06was always the Intercontinental.
00:44:08At the start of the year, it's Don Morocco.
00:44:11We know we can't keep it that way
00:44:13because you want to involve him in an angle
00:44:15where the heavyweight title is involved in April.
00:44:18So where does it go from Morocco
00:44:20between January and April
00:44:22and where does it go beyond that?
00:44:24Okay.
00:44:25We're going to switch.
00:44:29We're going to have Morocco lose the steamboat.
00:44:33Rather than...
00:44:34This is starting new, right?
00:44:36So Morocco isn't the Intercontinental.
00:44:38Well, yeah.
00:44:39In January, you inherit the hooking position with Morocco.
00:44:43As the...
00:44:44Okay.
00:44:45So it's Morocco here.
00:44:47Okay.
00:44:51And we have him with steamboat in what, May?
00:44:55Right in here, right in April.
00:44:57March, April, okay.
00:44:59So I want to get the belt off him as quick as possible
00:45:04to rebuild him for steamboat.
00:45:06Okay.
00:45:07So I'm going to go in there
00:45:10with the guy...
00:45:12Morocco is a great worker
00:45:14and to me, he had one of the best wrestling bodies of all times.
00:45:20So I'm going to go in there with a guy to me that was...
00:45:24And it's funny, in this day and age,
00:45:27you don't hear his name that much,
00:45:29but there's no bigger card except for Hogan
00:45:33than Superstar Billy Graham.
00:45:35I mean, he was the man.
00:45:38So he's going to be a Intercontinental champion.
00:45:42How do you want to do it?
00:45:44Well, I'm going to have a finish
00:45:48and we're going to do it in January
00:45:50and Morocco is going to lose to Superstar in January.
00:45:57And we have a finish.
00:45:59I don't want to have...
00:46:02If Billy was using the bear hug as a finish,
00:46:05we're not going to use the bear hug on Morocco as the finish.
00:46:10We can use a variation out of it
00:46:13where there's a pin, but...
00:46:21Superstar can go for it, Morocco can duck it,
00:46:23they can collide, they can have a clothesline,
00:46:25they can have anything,
00:46:27but Superstar is going to end up on top, one, two, three.
00:46:30But I'm not going to have Morocco give up.
00:46:33I'm not going to have Mikey Hill
00:46:38underneath Orndorff giving up.
00:46:42And Billy is Billy,
00:46:45and it's just him winning the title
00:46:47that people are going to go crazy if this is the guys.
00:46:49So okay, we have Billy with the title.
00:46:53So as we go on down,
00:46:58as we were booking the year out,
00:47:01we didn't come to December for a big show.
00:47:05Right?
00:47:07So again, knowing that this is 84,
00:47:11and we're selling to kids,
00:47:14and correct me if I'm wrong,
00:47:16but wasn't He-Man and that guy Skeletor
00:47:19super characters?
00:47:22Yeah.
00:47:23Billy Graham looks like a super character.
00:47:29Orndorff looks like a super character.
00:47:31So my big show would be in December,
00:47:37and I'd have a Christmas day,
00:47:41and I'd raise the tickets
00:47:43to twice the price they've ever been.
00:47:46At the Garden.
00:47:47At the Garden.
00:47:48Twice the price they've ever been,
00:47:50because this is a Christmas day present.
00:47:52You can't miss.
00:47:54Buy your kids this ticket.
00:47:56My main event in December for the title
00:48:02would be Orndorff against Superstar Graham.
00:48:06Title for title?
00:48:08I would say that it's title versus title,
00:48:13but obviously if Superstar wins,
00:48:17he'd have to default
00:48:19into Continental Championship.
00:48:22Now with Graham,
00:48:23since you're going to give him the title,
00:48:25and he's going to be a major focus,
00:48:27your number two guy for the whole year,
00:48:30in 84 he was doing the bald head and the karate gang.
00:48:35Would you go back to the bleach blonde?
00:48:37I'm going back to when he was Superstar Billy Graham,
00:48:41when he came to New York with the tie-dye.
00:48:44Right, so you'd grow the hair back out,
00:48:46make him dye the hair again,
00:48:47go back to the glamorous.
00:48:49In fact, he did do that when he came back here.
00:48:54He came for a very short run,
00:48:56and he grew the hair back for a short while.
00:48:58In fact, he did it in the Carolinas for Crockett
00:49:03before he came back to Vince.
00:49:05Right before Vince went nationwide.
00:49:09That would have been the early 80s, 81, 82?
00:49:11Yeah, 82.
00:49:13He was working with Jimmy Valiant at the time,
00:49:17and then he got the chance to go back.
00:49:20We now have, again,
00:49:23this is 84, so we're in the disco era,
00:49:25so the tie-dye works, right?
00:49:27The bow works.
00:49:31To me, again, that poster sells out.
00:49:35Well, keeping it consistent also with the times,
00:49:39I think one of the main reasons that Superstar,
00:49:42and he would tell you this himself,
00:49:43Superstar didn't get a bigger run
00:49:45when he came back the second time for Vince in 83,
00:49:47was his personal issues.
00:49:49Would you be comfortable, if going back in time,
00:49:52hanging a title on him?
00:49:54See, I never knew he had these personal issues.
00:49:58Well, we say personal issues,
00:49:59but we're talking about dope.
00:50:00Yeah, yeah, and I'd never...
00:50:03I was interviewed about Billy's book,
00:50:06and Billy hit it well.
00:50:11I never knew Billy to be on drugs.
00:50:16And I mean, I had an angle with him one time in Florida.
00:50:19We were partners, and we broke away,
00:50:21and he did some of the greatest interviews I ever saw.
00:50:24He was the first guy ever to do a still picture interview.
00:50:28We had a series of where he had been strapped
00:50:31to the desert to beat the demons out of him.
00:50:35Right, yeah.
00:50:36He had the scorpions crawling on my body.
00:50:38I mean, it was done well.
00:50:40Sounds like something you'd come up with.
00:50:41Yeah, but it was him.
00:50:42It was him.
00:50:43I mean, he had become a babyface.
00:50:45That was the turn.
00:50:46He went to the desert.
00:50:47Well, I never, and I didn't socialize with Billy,
00:50:54but I never knew.
00:50:56And the guy in the book asked me, he said,
00:50:57what about, and I said, this room.
00:51:00I knew there was something.
00:51:02You know, we lost the weight and stuff,
00:51:05but I didn't know what it was.
00:51:08I thought it may be personal problems,
00:51:10but it was the furthest thing for me,
00:51:12because again, to mention the sink,
00:51:14I knew Billy wouldn't even have a beer.
00:51:18He was up every morning.
00:51:19He'd get up, set his alarm clock for 4 o'clock in the morning,
00:51:24take some ephedra and go back to sleep
00:51:26and wake up, and it was 6 to go work out in the gym
00:51:29before anybody else.
00:51:31So I'd, you know, that.
00:51:34So he was reliable enough that he could put the table on.
00:51:36Okay, yeah.
00:51:37But if we're going back and being honest in 84,
00:51:40what am I going to do?
00:51:41Fight the whole crew?
00:51:45It'd be a small locker room.
00:51:46There'd be nobody there, including myself.
00:51:48So what are we talking about?
00:51:50It'd be Bruno and Howard Finkel.
00:51:52It'd be Bruno and Backlund.
00:51:55Against Howard, nobody else.
00:51:58Howard and Vince.
00:52:01No, Vince would be there either.
00:52:03Howard and, what's the guy we talk about?
00:52:08The guy, Eric.
00:52:10Oh, Eric.
00:52:11It'd be Howard and Eric.
00:52:13So, okay, so Graham, who do you put him with through the year?
00:52:18Who were going to be the heels that I give him a good run?
00:52:21Now, and again, knowing this is 84,
00:52:33and we're going to placate this one,
00:52:40you know I had Murdoch and Williams on the first match, right?
00:52:43Well, to get it hot.
00:52:45But to get that to mean what it should,
00:52:51there's going to have to be, and this isn't compromising myself
00:52:55because both of them are great workers.
00:52:58Murdoch is going to work with Billy Graham, okay?
00:53:04Because Billy was a great worker for what he did.
00:53:11Dick Tarker, but Dick Murdoch, and the Funks will tell you this,
00:53:15was one of the greatest workers of all times.
00:53:18Dickie could make anybody look good.
00:53:21The other thing that's going back, 84,
00:53:24Dickie doesn't look like Billy, okay?
00:53:29So we know that, right?
00:53:31So now, but he can work.
00:53:35But I've also spotlighted Billy's physique.
00:53:40Against a different opponent.
00:53:42Interesting, yeah.
00:53:43I'm not going to spotlight that physique.
00:53:47Up against Tony Atlas or something like that.
00:53:49Until December when I got that poster already in my head.
00:53:54Well, against Orndorfer.
00:53:55Right, right, right, right.
00:53:56So I'm going to start feeding guys that can work,
00:53:59that are in shape, but not muscular.
00:54:02So that's where I would go with that.
00:54:04Interesting, okay.
00:54:07So you've got Murdoch.
00:54:09We've got a lot of candidates here that fit that bill.
00:54:12Another match, and I don't know if they ever worked together,
00:54:17but Dr. Death was a great athlete.
00:54:20And Dr. Death looked like a wrestler.
00:54:23Again, he didn't have that body that Billy had.
00:54:27So there you have Murdoch.
00:54:29You have a whole bunch of guys that
00:54:37You have a whole bunch of guys there that still can get him over.
00:54:45Yeah.
00:54:46And then you've got Ivan Koloff.
00:54:48There was a Koloff, and there's a storyline there
00:54:51because Koloff and Billy were one-time partners.
00:54:55You've got them.
00:54:57You know, so.
00:55:01Even somebody maybe like an Adonis.
00:55:04Yeah, Adonis could work.
00:55:06Adonis could work.
00:55:07The thing is, we're going to surround.
00:55:13One time Eddie Graham told me, he said,
00:55:18if you get a steak and they just serve it to you,
00:55:22and it's not garnished, it's not going to taste as good.
00:55:28If it comes out with a nice cut tomato,
00:55:32a little bit of lettuce, nice sliced cucumber.
00:55:37There's a psychological advantage to that.
00:55:39Yeah.
00:55:40So knowing that Billy's strong point is his body in his interview
00:55:46and not his work.
00:55:50He was a good worker, but he wasn't a worker
00:55:53that Murdock, Adonis, Koloff, or Williams are.
00:55:58So they're going to do their part on their end
00:56:02to reinforce Billy's physique.
00:56:08Now, let me ask you an interesting question.
00:56:11With a guy like Graham, who could talk with the best of them,
00:56:14that's universally agreed, the physique you're talking about,
00:56:17particularly because you're going to wait the whole year
00:56:21before you put him in the ring with somebody
00:56:23who's competitive in that aspect.
00:56:25Do you run a risk of Graham outshining your heavyweight champion?
00:56:31No, because the difference is my heavyweight champion
00:56:35can work his ass off.
00:56:39My heavyweight champion is going to have the best match
00:56:42on the card every night.
00:56:44The reason why, or reason is, it's 1984,
00:56:50the reason is Paul Orndorff is a professional athlete,
00:56:55played professional football,
00:56:59one of the toughest guys ever in this business,
00:57:01one of the toughest guys ever come out of Tampa,
00:57:04and there was a lot of tough guys come out of Tampa,
00:57:07and Paul Orndorff is not going to be outshined.
00:57:13I always liked it when somebody tried out work, Paul,
00:57:16because I knew I was going to see the best.
00:57:20Out of Paul.
00:57:22And again, this is back in 1984 when Paul was way in his prime.
00:57:28He was great.
00:57:31Remember, he was one of the first wrestlers
00:57:33to do a national commercial.
00:57:35For years, he did the, where he held the ball like Atlas,
00:57:39and it was the icy hot, the one with the rub.
00:57:42Oh, you're kidding. No, no.
00:57:44Oh yeah, he was one of the first wrestlers
00:57:46ever to do a national commercial.
00:57:49And that was before WrestleMania.
00:57:52Yeah, sure.
00:57:55All right, so it's Graham for the year,
00:57:56and the big, well, the culmination of that
00:57:59is Orndorff and Graham.
00:58:00What's the result of that?
00:58:02Orndorff got to go over.
00:58:06Does that damage your icy champ now?
00:58:09Do you need to move it off him?
00:58:10Or does the belt go to Orndorff,
00:58:11and he's got to give the belt to someone,
00:58:13and there's a tournament?
00:58:14How do you handle the two belts?
00:58:15The thing is, a champion never steps down
00:58:19and takes another, or in Ira or anyway,
00:58:23we never, if the champion won,
00:58:27he didn't have both belts.
00:58:30It'd be like when the junior heavyweight champion
00:58:33wrestled the heavyweight champions,
00:58:35the heavyweight champion won.
00:58:36He didn't become the junior heavyweight champion.
00:58:38But that's an interesting scenario,
00:58:40because it's brand new, and it's 84.
00:58:42You could do whatever you wanted.
00:58:44You could have Paul
00:58:48take that belt
00:58:51and give it to his buddy, Roddy Piper,
00:58:54as a present, Christmas present.
00:58:57And now you've got Piper saying
00:58:59that he's the Intercontinental Champion,
00:59:02and the commissioners are all up in a huff
00:59:05and saying this can't be,
00:59:06you can do an angle right off of that,
00:59:08because Piper all this time
00:59:10is going to be tagged along with Orndorff.
00:59:13With Orndorff, we said.
00:59:15So, now if we have that
00:59:20tagged along there, right?
00:59:24And we went through buildings
00:59:26and not blowing out,
00:59:28that's our main event,
00:59:29and then we go to buildings after that,
00:59:33with Piper having the belt,
00:59:36you could have Orndorff, Piper, and Morocco
00:59:39against Graham, Steamboat, and Snooker.
00:59:44Right, because the Piper angle for Snooker,
00:59:46yeah, that's fantastic.
00:59:47You could have a six-way,
00:59:50break them apart, put them together,
00:59:52a tag match,
00:59:53but you don't have to overuse
00:59:55you're the world champion.
00:59:56And the other thing, during,
00:59:58and I know it's cliché, cliché, cliché,
01:00:01but if we're going to house shows,
01:00:05and the idea is,
01:00:06if you have a chance,
01:00:10eventually the people have to get a payoff.
01:00:12And my belief is that he'll,
01:00:14you know, people come to see that he'll get beat.
01:00:17And eventually he has to get beat.
01:00:20But he can get beat in a six-man tag match.
01:00:23And you can film it,
01:00:25and show it on TV,
01:00:26which Vince never did.
01:00:27They never took advantage of the house shows.
01:00:30Right off the top of my head,
01:00:31this is in Providence, Rhode Island,
01:00:34and Graham, in the six-man,
01:00:37beats Orndorff,
01:00:39who he had just done a job for.
01:00:41So now they're one-on-one.
01:00:42Right.
01:00:43But you protect your champion,
01:00:44he's got the belt still,
01:00:45and you can run it another six minutes.
01:00:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:00:47He hasn't lost the belt.
01:00:49And it's not clean.
01:00:53It breaks into a six-way.
01:00:55Piper and Snooker will go off.
01:00:57Morocco and Steamboat go off.
01:01:00Graham shoots Orndorff into the ring,
01:01:04gives him a big foot,
01:01:06hits the ropes,
01:01:07and drops a leg before the guy ever got there.
01:01:09And no one knows it, right?
01:01:10No one saw it.
01:01:11Hogan dropped the leg.
01:01:12Dropped the leg.
01:01:13One, two, three.
01:01:14We got Billy,
01:01:16gets his hand raised,
01:01:17and we show it on TV.
01:01:18And you light the fire on that angle again.
01:01:20Yeah, you light that,
01:01:21and we got three guys getting over.
01:01:24And we give
01:01:26the people that paid their hire
01:01:28that paid their hired money
01:01:31a reprieve.
01:01:32You can't just keep on...
01:01:34I mean,
01:01:35my deal has always been
01:01:36he draws money,
01:01:37and I believe that,
01:01:39but you just can't keep on
01:01:40sticking it to them
01:01:41and sticking it to them.
01:01:42They get a break once in a while.
01:01:45It's like us paying $3
01:01:47a gallon for gas.
01:01:50Once in a while,
01:01:51they give us a break,
01:01:52and they drop it to $2.75.
01:01:53You know what I mean?
01:01:54Once in a while.
01:01:55All right, that's the IC title.
01:01:58Yeah.
01:02:10So we've got the heavyweight
01:02:14scene in the bag
01:02:15as well as the IC,
01:02:16and that leaves us,
01:02:17as far as WWE at the time
01:02:18was concerned,
01:02:19with the tag teams.
01:02:20At the time,
01:02:21you were getting the book in January,
01:02:22and the belt is on
01:02:24Tony Atlas and Rocky Johnson.
01:02:27So I bring the Freebirds
01:02:28in right away,
01:02:29and they beat them.
01:02:31Off the bat?
01:02:32Right off the bat,
01:02:33because we know
01:02:34there's problems
01:02:35between those two.
01:02:36Correct.
01:02:37And we don't want...
01:02:39It's hard enough.
01:02:41Some guys can get along
01:02:43business-wise,
01:02:44even though they don't
01:02:45get along personally,
01:02:46but these guys couldn't.
01:02:47So the Freebirds go over.
01:02:49This would be
01:02:50Hayes and Gordy.
01:02:52Hayes and Gordy.
01:02:53Okay.
01:02:55And...
01:03:04I'd keep it Hayes and Gordy.
01:03:06There would never be
01:03:07the third guy.
01:03:08Buddy Roberts doesn't come along?
01:03:10No.
01:03:11Okay.
01:03:12I mean,
01:03:14it was a good concept.
01:03:17You know,
01:03:18they brought music first.
01:03:19They brought that concept.
01:03:22But in all actuality,
01:03:24if you're trying
01:03:25to keep things sacred,
01:03:27how can the third person
01:03:29be a tag team competitor?
01:03:31I mean...
01:03:32What do you think
01:03:33was the original logic for it?
01:03:36Michael was learning to work,
01:03:40and Terry could work,
01:03:43and Buddy could work.
01:03:45He was like a prodigy,
01:03:46Terry Gordy.
01:03:47They said from like 18 or whatever,
01:03:48he ran out of the game.
01:03:4950.
01:03:50Yeah.
01:03:51He was unbelievable.
01:03:52One of the best workers
01:03:53I ever saw in my life.
01:03:54You know,
01:03:55he was almost like
01:03:56a cross between
01:03:58a Murdoch and a Funk.
01:04:00And it stopped the death
01:04:01of three of them.
01:04:04But I mean...
01:04:06So we...
01:04:07And Michael,
01:04:08the reason why,
01:04:09was Michael was brand new
01:04:10in the business,
01:04:11so what they would do is,
01:04:15the Von Erichs,
01:04:17Michael could talk.
01:04:19Gordy and Roberts couldn't.
01:04:21So Michael got all the heat,
01:04:22so in the spot shows,
01:04:24they would let Hayes work
01:04:28to polish himself off.
01:04:30Then in the big shows,
01:04:31Roberts would step in.
01:04:33Interesting, okay.
01:04:34It was a good concept,
01:04:36but we're going to keep
01:04:37the grill sacred,
01:04:39we're going to protect the grill,
01:04:40so the free birds.
01:04:42Okay?
01:04:43Now they're having a heel run here?
01:04:45Yeah.
01:04:46The thing is,
01:04:47one of...
01:04:50One of the things,
01:04:51and we're going back
01:04:52in the history,
01:04:55the WWF,
01:04:57which is now the WWE,
01:04:59but when it was the WWF,
01:05:00they always had this thing
01:05:02where, to me,
01:05:05the tag belts,
01:05:12even though they meant something,
01:05:14there was never
01:05:15an angle like Rapture.
01:05:19Michael Hayes is a smart guy,
01:05:22Terry Gordy was a smart guy.
01:05:24You have a lot of smart guys
01:05:26that will come up
01:05:27with great ideas.
01:05:28The free birds
01:05:29came up with great ideas.
01:05:32On that December show,
01:05:34that we're going to have,
01:05:36the one of...
01:05:37The big show, yeah.
01:05:39I'm going to have Junkyard Dog
01:05:40and Butch Reed against them.
01:05:46Okay.
01:05:54So they'll keep it the whole year?
01:05:56You'll work the free birds?
01:05:57Yeah, not...
01:05:58But in July,
01:06:00they're going to work
01:06:01the blinding angle
01:06:03with the Junkyard Dog
01:06:05where he can't see his kids anymore.
01:06:12So the dog is out.
01:06:16Yeah.
01:06:18So that's really going to
01:06:19prop that cat up
01:06:20because that's the dog's
01:06:21first time back
01:06:22when Ornoff wrestles
01:06:27Superstar.
01:06:28Superstar, yeah.
01:06:29And then you have the tag
01:06:31that are intercontinental
01:06:34title we don't have
01:06:35because Billy's
01:06:36the intercontinental champion.
01:06:37Right.
01:06:38But we could have
01:06:39a number one contender match
01:06:41with Morocco and Steamboat.
01:06:44Right.
01:06:45The former feud.
01:06:46So we have a former
01:06:49world champion.
01:06:52And you know what
01:06:53they used to announce
01:06:54years ago in the guidance,
01:06:55remember?
01:06:56Next month
01:06:59whether Bruno wins,
01:07:00he's wrestling
01:07:03Ivan Koloff
01:07:04and whether Koloff...
01:07:06I mean,
01:07:07if he was wrestling
01:07:08Bull Ramblers.
01:07:09Whether Bruno wins tonight,
01:07:10he's wrestling
01:07:11and I live in Koloff
01:07:12and whether Ivan Koloff
01:07:14wins,
01:07:15he's wrestling Pedro.
01:07:16You could do that.
01:07:19That angle with the
01:07:20junk cat dog
01:07:21blinding,
01:07:22getting blinded.
01:07:24I stole it
01:07:25when I blinded
01:07:26Dusty's sister
01:07:28and it works.
01:07:29Was it a fireball
01:07:30or what do you mean?
01:07:31No, I was suspended
01:07:34for, you know,
01:07:35I had left for
01:07:36about five months
01:07:37and they did
01:07:39This Is Your Life
01:07:41and they had it
01:07:42at the commentating.
01:07:43I hadn't been there
01:07:44for five months
01:07:46and Dusty's sister
01:07:47was behind the screen
01:07:50and said,
01:07:51honey,
01:07:52this is how you...
01:07:54Do you recognize this voice?
01:07:55I had other people
01:07:56do it first, right?
01:07:57That's right.
01:07:58They broke down
01:07:59and cried,
01:08:00oh, you're here.
01:08:01Well, he had just signed
01:08:02with an ink pen,
01:08:03you know,
01:08:04big flume
01:08:05for a contract
01:08:06with Flair.
01:08:08Well, there's all
01:08:09the baby faces
01:08:10came out to congratulate him
01:08:11because it was his
01:08:1315th year
01:08:14or 20th year
01:08:15being the American Dream
01:08:16and it had been
01:08:17in the paper
01:08:18and everything.
01:08:19You know,
01:08:20I came in
01:08:21and grabbed the ink
01:08:22and went to throw it
01:08:23in his eyes.
01:08:24He ducked
01:08:25and hit his sister
01:08:26and blinded her
01:08:27and then he
01:08:28said he wouldn't
01:08:29wrestle Flair
01:08:30until he wrestled me
01:08:31and I said,
01:08:32well, you can't wrestle me
01:08:33because I'm not
01:08:34in the territory
01:08:35and they said,
01:08:36well, you got to come back.
01:08:37I said, no, I ain't
01:08:38and I came back
01:08:39and I came back
01:08:40the night he wrestled Flair
01:08:42and I fucked him
01:08:43for the title.
01:08:44You know, I mean,
01:08:45he had Flair beat
01:08:46and I,
01:08:47so.
01:08:48So, the same
01:08:49kind of thing.
01:08:50Yeah, but I just
01:08:51stole it from the Freebirds.
01:08:52I mean, everything,
01:08:53you know,
01:08:54it's reinvented
01:08:55somehow
01:08:56or stolen somehow.
01:08:57So,
01:08:58yeah,
01:08:59and I,
01:09:00at that time,
01:09:01you got to remember,
01:09:02the Freebirds
01:09:03were the first
01:09:04with the music
01:09:05and we're going back
01:09:06to 84
01:09:07and we're going back
01:09:08to 84.
01:09:09Mm-hmm.
01:09:10Colorful for kids.
01:09:11Mm-hmm.
01:09:12The girls
01:09:13who,
01:09:14at that time,
01:09:15were a large part
01:09:16of the audience.
01:09:17The Freebirds
01:09:18were good looking guys.
01:09:19Long,
01:09:20blonde,
01:09:21damn,
01:09:22Michael did
01:09:23the moonwalk.
01:09:24I mean,
01:09:25it's,
01:09:26you know,
01:09:27passe,
01:09:28but at that time,
01:09:29it's,
01:09:30at the time,
01:09:31we're in the disco era,
01:09:32so they fit in perfectly.
01:09:33So, that brings me
01:09:34to another thing.
01:09:35You,
01:09:36I mean,
01:09:37yes,
01:09:38you did with Mark
01:09:39with the beach
01:09:40and all,
01:09:41great thing.
01:09:42That was the first one.
01:09:43You do a little bit of that
01:09:44rock and roll stuff
01:09:45with the Freebirds,
01:09:46tease it on TV
01:09:47kind of deal.
01:09:48Yeah,
01:09:49yeah,
01:09:50and I also think
01:09:51the other one is,
01:09:52one of the things
01:09:53that I felt
01:09:54that wrestling
01:09:55has done
01:09:56is use
01:09:57bumping out,
01:09:58well,
01:09:59bumping out
01:10:00from a match,
01:10:01you know,
01:10:02going to a commercial.
01:10:03Oh,
01:10:04right, right.
01:10:06If I,
01:10:07if I knew the match,
01:10:08we know the match
01:10:09is going to be
01:10:12Orndorff
01:10:13and Superstar.
01:10:15By October,
01:10:16my bumps
01:10:17would stop being
01:10:19body present.
01:10:20A little promo stuff.
01:10:21Christmas.
01:10:22Yeah.
01:10:23Santa Claus,
01:10:24you know,
01:10:25Santa Claus coming down,
01:10:26whether he jumps
01:10:27the fucking Easter bunny
01:10:28or the pumpkin man
01:10:29and chokes him,
01:10:30it's my holiday,
01:10:31it's my holiday,
01:10:32you know,
01:10:33something like that.
01:10:34You got the muscular guys
01:10:35doing it,
01:10:36you know what I mean?
01:10:37Right.
01:10:38Without exposing
01:10:39who it was
01:10:40and doing it that way.
01:10:41Yeah.
01:10:42But, yeah,
01:10:43I mean,
01:10:44and then,
01:10:45then again,
01:10:46in December,
01:10:47the dog
01:10:48and reed
01:10:49would have to go over
01:10:50because they had,
01:10:51the payback
01:10:52has to be there.
01:10:53You blinded the guy,
01:10:54made fun of him.
01:10:55It was a great angle
01:10:56if you're
01:10:57all familiar with it.
01:10:58They did a wonderful job on it.
01:10:59In,
01:11:00down for Watts?
01:11:01Yeah.
01:11:02Yeah.
01:11:03And they would take the straps
01:11:04in December?
01:11:05Yeah.
01:11:06Yeah.
01:11:07So now,
01:11:08again,
01:11:09if you were doing it
01:11:11and they took the straps
01:11:12in December,
01:11:13hopefully
01:11:16you'd be going
01:11:17to the old
01:11:18Bill Watts territory
01:11:21in January.
01:11:22On the national sweep,
01:11:23go down
01:11:24and take New Orleans
01:11:25and...
01:11:26Yeah.
01:11:27So,
01:11:28you wouldn't need much
01:11:31on that carrot
01:11:32in January.
01:11:33So,
01:11:34not to sell
01:11:37Louisiana,
01:11:38Mississippi,
01:11:39you know,
01:11:40that whole south.
01:11:42There it is.
01:11:43The tag team angle,
01:11:44Atlas and Johnson
01:11:45to the Freebirds,
01:11:46Freebirds to J.Y.D.
01:11:47and Reed
01:11:48into 85.
01:11:49So,
01:11:50with the titles
01:11:51out of the way,
01:11:52the other topic
01:11:53that 1984 brings
01:11:54to light
01:11:55is the national
01:11:56expansion,
01:11:57the territory raiding,
01:11:58as people have called
01:11:59it by Vince McMahon.
01:12:00We've talked about that
01:12:01a little before
01:12:02when you told us
01:12:03who you were going
01:12:04to take
01:12:05from the other territories.
01:12:06But what it really boils down
01:12:07to,
01:12:08we started
01:12:09talking
01:12:10about
01:12:11the
01:12:12New Orleans
01:12:13territory
01:12:14and the
01:12:15Freebirds
01:12:16and the
01:12:17New Orleans
01:12:18territory.
01:12:19What it really boils down to
01:12:20is you've got
01:12:21cable TV now,
01:12:22you've got your product
01:12:23that you're going to book
01:12:24is going to be seen
01:12:25by potentially every fan
01:12:26of every other territory
01:12:27in the country
01:12:28or as far as
01:12:29the cable's reach is.
01:12:30So,
01:12:31the question is
01:12:32do you just go
01:12:33balls to the wall
01:12:34and try to
01:12:35take TV
01:12:36in every territory?
01:12:37Do you do a talent swap
01:12:38like they used to do
01:12:39back in the day?
01:12:40How do you handle it?
01:12:41Go balls to the wall
01:12:42and take everything.
01:12:43And
01:12:44looking back
01:12:45at what he had,
01:12:46again,
01:12:47you know,
01:12:48everything's hindsight
01:12:49and you can say
01:12:50this was a mistake.
01:12:51And I still think
01:12:52this is the same mistake
01:12:53they make today.
01:12:57This industry
01:12:59is driven by television
01:13:01but it's propped up
01:13:02by house shows.
01:13:05There's not
01:13:06enough filming
01:13:07at house shows
01:13:08where people say,
01:13:09and if I was starting
01:13:11in 84,
01:13:12okay,
01:13:14and my
01:13:15product,
01:13:16if I was going
01:13:17into Louisiana,
01:13:20so I've taken
01:13:21The Dog,
01:13:22I've taken Butch,
01:13:23I've taken
01:13:24Doug Enough,
01:13:25I've taken Orndorff,
01:13:26I've gone in there
01:13:27with basically
01:13:28Bill Watts' car
01:13:29repackaged
01:13:30in my thing.
01:13:31I would shoot
01:13:32those matches
01:13:34and replay them
01:13:35on one of my shows
01:13:36so the people
01:13:37of Louisiana say,
01:13:38ooh,
01:13:39did you see me on TV?
01:13:41Boy,
01:13:42those guys
01:13:43were really good.
01:13:44You know what I mean?
01:13:45And the other thing is
01:13:47everything is left
01:13:48for TV and pay-per-view.
01:13:51Can the title
01:13:52switch hands
01:13:53in Providence, Rhode Island?
01:13:55My whole thing
01:13:56used to be,
01:13:57I used to say,
01:13:58even back in the 70s,
01:14:00I used to say,
01:14:01a title
01:14:02should be lost.
01:14:03The world's title
01:14:04should be lost
01:14:05in Paris, France.
01:14:09It's the world's title.
01:14:11It should be lost
01:14:12in Paris, France.
01:14:14Or Madrid
01:14:15or some fucking where
01:14:16besides Madison Square Garden.
01:14:19You know what I mean?
01:14:20That's where they dropped the title.
01:14:22They didn't drop it
01:14:23in Boston Garden.
01:14:24They didn't drop it
01:14:25in Philly Arena.
01:14:27It was Madison Square Garden.
01:14:29It's easy
01:14:30in hindsight,
01:14:31and I said,
01:14:32when you're out in the forest
01:14:33to see the trees,
01:14:35but everything
01:14:36becomes too repetitious.
01:14:39If you went to Providence,
01:14:41Rhode Island,
01:14:42hypothetically,
01:14:44and somebody drops the title,
01:14:48the next time you come back
01:14:49to that building,
01:14:50that building's selling out.
01:14:51But if you show that on TV,
01:14:53and then you have a rematch
01:14:55in Philadelphia,
01:14:56I have a feeling
01:14:58that that building
01:14:59will make the fall.
01:15:01You know,
01:15:02and nowadays
01:15:03with train,
01:15:04plane travel,
01:15:07production costs,
01:15:10they have to make
01:15:12a lot of money
01:15:14because in my head,
01:15:16I can't see
01:15:17how they can exist
01:15:19unless they just go
01:15:20to being a television show
01:15:22completely
01:15:24and not travel at all
01:15:25except on tours
01:15:27like twice a year,
01:15:28Sting goes on tour
01:15:30or the Madonna tour
01:15:31or something.
01:15:32Because, you know,
01:15:35you have to sell out
01:15:3790% of the buildings now
01:15:39to even make the money back.
01:15:41Right, right.
01:15:42So you would take advantage
01:15:44of those locales,
01:15:46like the example you used
01:15:48is Watts, Louisiana.
01:15:50Switch title in Louisiana?
01:15:52Sure.
01:15:53I'd switch the title in Louisiana.
01:15:55Maybe I would switch the title
01:15:58in New Orleans.
01:16:03I'd switch the title in L.A.
01:16:05I would switch the title
01:16:06in Montreal.
01:16:08I would switch the title
01:16:09in Detroit.
01:16:10I would switch the title...
01:16:11I mean, you can switch it anywhere.
01:16:12It doesn't just have to be
01:16:13Madison Square Garden.
01:16:16A tag team title match
01:16:17could be switched someplace.
01:16:19The Intercontinental title
01:16:20can be switched.
01:16:22You could go to Detroit,
01:16:23we'll say,
01:16:25hypothetically.
01:16:26This is still 84.
01:16:28The Sheik is alive.
01:16:31The Sheik doesn't work for me.
01:16:34But I make a deal with him
01:16:35to work Cobo Hall
01:16:38against Dusty Rhodes.
01:16:41There's a history already
01:16:45with Dusty and the Sheik.
01:16:48I come in with my card,
01:16:49but I put Dusty and the Sheik together.
01:16:55The people say,
01:16:56it's something different
01:16:57than the Sheik's card,
01:16:58but the Sheik is still the Sheik.
01:17:01You work a fucking hot angle,
01:17:03you show up back,
01:17:05and then Dusty and the Sheik
01:17:06come back in the strap match,
01:17:09and Detroit is going to come back
01:17:11with that main event
01:17:13where you can go to New Orleans
01:17:17with Orndorff,
01:17:19but Dusty and the Sheik
01:17:21can carry that Cobo Hall
01:17:23for a sellout
01:17:24with maybe not as strong a scout
01:17:25as you need to prop up
01:17:27Paul in New Orleans.
01:17:28So you're using some existing talent
01:17:30in the little pockets in the country
01:17:32to draw them over to your product.
01:17:33Right, right.
01:17:35A really interesting thing
01:17:37that you mentioned,
01:17:38which I guess I really never considered
01:17:40until just now,
01:17:41WWE, for all the reach
01:17:43that they had at that time,
01:17:44and even a couple years after that
01:17:46when they were going into places
01:17:48like Louisiana and Texas,
01:17:53they never took advantage
01:17:57of title switches anywhere
01:18:00but their home base.
01:18:01If fans saw a title switch
01:18:04in their hometown,
01:18:07with some of the people
01:18:08they're familiar with on the card,
01:18:09like you're saying,
01:18:10but a major federation,
01:18:12even if it was one
01:18:13they weren't that familiar with
01:18:14like WWE,
01:18:15a major federation title switch,
01:18:16that immediately gets them
01:18:17back the next month.
01:18:18Right.
01:18:19You never saw that.
01:18:20The title drops,
01:18:21even as Vince was expanding,
01:18:24the title drops only happened
01:18:25in the home base.
01:18:26Right.
01:18:27I never thought about that.
01:18:28That's interesting.
01:18:29Yeah.
01:18:30Talk about television.
01:18:31What would you do with TV?
01:18:32Obviously you need
01:18:33a weekly product.
01:18:34Right.
01:18:35And you've got cable,
01:18:36so you touched on it before,
01:18:37you probably,
01:18:38I would assume,
01:18:39use some of the cable time
01:18:40you have to air house shows
01:18:41from across the country.
01:18:43Yeah, well,
01:18:44if it was possible,
01:18:46and I don't know if it's possible
01:18:48to air, at that time,
01:18:50to air cable shows
01:18:52from house shows
01:18:53across the country,
01:18:54but I would certainly film
01:18:56hot angles and stick them
01:18:58into that cable show.
01:19:00I'd use that cable show, too,
01:19:02where I would take,
01:19:04we'll say an on-off,
01:19:06if I know where I'm going,
01:19:07or an on-off and superstar.
01:19:09Rather than them working,
01:19:11they don't need to work.
01:19:13You need to pay to see them work.
01:19:17They're going to,
01:19:18Billy's going to show you
01:19:19his workout,
01:19:21but on-off's going to say
01:19:22that workout is archaic.
01:19:24Right.
01:19:25You'll show my workout.
01:19:27We're going to show,
01:19:28Paul was a big-time hunter.
01:19:30We're going to go out
01:19:31hunting with Paul.
01:19:32We're going topping fishing
01:19:34with Paul.
01:19:35We're going to the desert
01:19:37with Billy to purify ourselves.
01:19:39We're not going to see them
01:19:40wrestle on TV,
01:19:43but we're going to see them
01:19:45in a bigger-than-life thing.
01:19:47We hook them up
01:19:48and we take things,
01:19:49you know, a premiere.
01:19:51They go out on a red carpet
01:19:52premiere with Goldie Hawn
01:19:55or whoever on their shoulder.
01:19:58We make them,
01:19:59besides a wrestler,
01:20:01a celebrity in bigger-than-life.
01:20:03That's what Hogan was
01:20:05because he came off of the Rockies.
01:20:07Now we have to fill that void.
01:20:10Why only do it with one
01:20:12when you can do it
01:20:13with a few of them?
01:20:15I'm not saying you can do it
01:20:16with everybody,
01:20:17but like I said,
01:20:18on-off did that national commercial.
01:20:21Superstar couldn't do
01:20:22a national commercial?
01:20:23Please.
01:20:25And those guys fit in well.
01:20:30You could have had
01:20:32superstar rapping
01:20:33on any late-night show
01:20:35just going off
01:20:36and arm-wrestling
01:20:37Regis Philbert
01:20:38or something like that.
01:20:40That's rather than
01:20:43overexposing people
01:20:45because,
01:20:48and I said Paul's a great worker
01:20:49and he is,
01:20:51or was.
01:20:53There's only a limited repertoire we have
01:20:57or you start repeating yourself.
01:21:02You're not going to burn the guy out
01:21:04by having him go on TV
01:21:06to what?
01:21:08Squash guy?
01:21:10Or have a match
01:21:11that you're trying to get
01:21:12a baby face over
01:21:13and you're going to tarnish
01:21:14your champion
01:21:15where he puts his foot
01:21:16on the ropes?
01:21:19These are just your top guys
01:21:20you're talking about.
01:21:21Yeah, yeah.
01:21:22These are just my top guys.
01:21:23But what I'm getting back to is
01:21:25we got this holy grail that
01:21:28everybody's fake
01:21:29but on and off in Superstar.
01:21:31Let's keep this
01:21:33hidden.
01:21:34Let's not show it to the public
01:21:36every week.
01:21:37Here's the holy grail.
01:21:38Here's the holy grail.
01:21:39Oh, fuck.
01:21:40They're going to show us
01:21:41the holy grail again this week.
01:21:42Oh, Jesus.
01:21:43You got to pay to see
01:21:44the holy grail.
01:21:45Oh, it must be pretty good.
01:21:46It must be really
01:21:47something that we got to
01:21:48go pay to see.
01:21:49I got to go pay to see it
01:21:50because I know
01:21:51I know there's a holy grail
01:21:52but fuck it.
01:21:53All I see is this fucking guy
01:21:54talking.
01:21:55I got to see him wrestle.
01:21:57You know what I mean?
01:21:58And that's where
01:21:59what has happened to it.
01:22:01How many fucking times
01:22:03and I love Rick Flay to death.
01:22:05147 times
01:22:07World Heavyweight Champion.
01:22:09Woo!
01:22:11Fuck it. Come on, Rick.
01:22:13I love him to death
01:22:14but
01:22:15147 times?
01:22:17You know.
01:22:18It used to be a special thing
01:22:19when Rick was in the Crockett's
01:22:20he'd come out every week
01:22:22he'd do a great five minutes
01:22:25if he was going to be
01:22:26in the ring that night
01:22:27it was usually
01:22:28a run in
01:22:29and somebody ripping
01:22:30his suit off
01:22:31and then you had to go
01:22:32to the Omni tomorrow night.
01:22:33Right.
01:22:34You know what I'm saying?
01:22:35And that's
01:22:36I mean, I've seen
01:22:37Rick Flay
01:22:39in his underwear
01:22:40in the middle of the ring
01:22:41more times than I want to recall
01:22:42but that's what it was about.
01:22:44It was about
01:22:46he didn't have to wrestle.
01:22:50And the horseman premise
01:22:52let's throw that in there
01:22:53because that was about that time.
01:22:55That was Iron Anderson
01:22:56and he never got credit.
01:22:57That was Iron Anderson's idea.
01:22:59That was a great premise
01:23:00because Iron could work.
01:23:02Telly could work.
01:23:04Oli could work.
01:23:06J.J. Dillon was a great mouthpiece.
01:23:10So
01:23:11the entity of the horseman
01:23:13even though Flay wasn't working
01:23:15was getting a win on TV
01:23:16every week.
01:23:17Yeah.
01:23:18And he didn't have to do anything
01:23:19but brag.
01:23:20We did it.
01:23:21Woo.
01:23:22We did it.
01:23:23Woo.
01:23:24We did it.
01:23:25Woo.
01:23:26We did it.
01:23:27Woo.
01:23:28Stop that fucking record for a minute.
01:23:29Okay.
01:23:30I'll hold it down.
01:23:31But you wanted to see him work
01:23:32and you came out the next night.
01:23:33Yeah.
01:23:34Because he
01:23:35he was going to tell you
01:23:36he was a limousine
01:23:37riding jet
01:23:38flying
01:23:39son of a gun
01:23:40and he was going to
01:23:41kick the shit out of the guy
01:23:42the next week
01:23:43and invariably
01:23:44he would cut an interview
01:23:45his veins were sticking out
01:23:46this
01:23:47pull his tie off
01:23:48you know
01:23:49he'd be sweating
01:23:50I mean
01:23:51and that's
01:23:53where
01:23:57when
01:23:58Crocker went nationwide
01:24:01and they went
01:24:02you know nationwide
01:24:03they tried to go nationwide
01:24:04one to
01:24:05one
01:24:06two to two
01:24:07one to one
01:24:08head to head
01:24:09they started dropping the titles too much.
01:24:11Ronnie Gavin was a great contender
01:24:15who wasn't a world champion.
01:24:17Tarnished the belt.
01:24:19And I'd be
01:24:20no disrespect to him
01:24:22if I had won the world heavyweight title
01:24:24it would have tarnished the belt.
01:24:32When
01:24:36that
01:24:37that
01:24:38that thing that we're getting back to is
01:24:39we're going to try to keep this
01:24:41tarnish free
01:24:42because eventually
01:24:44down the line
01:24:45down the line
01:24:46you're going to have to say
01:24:47when business
01:24:48starts to fall
01:24:50you're going to have to say
01:24:51well
01:24:52you know the grill maybe can take a nick
01:24:54you know we can nick it one time
01:24:57you're going to have to nick it
01:24:58you know one time
01:24:59it's like
01:25:00but you got to keep that
01:25:01yeah
01:25:02you got to keep that
01:25:03you got to keep it
01:25:04you don't want to expose it all
01:25:05all at one time
01:25:06you know what I mean
01:25:07yeah
01:25:08and that's
01:25:09that's what I
01:25:10you know
01:25:11going back
01:25:12in 84
01:25:13you know
01:25:14I would have done
01:25:15exactly what you said
01:25:16switching titles in different places already
01:25:19the arenas
01:25:20and the other thing was
01:25:22rather than
01:25:25if I went in with
01:25:26Williams
01:25:27Duggan
01:25:28Reid
01:25:29Dogg and Orndorff
01:25:30maybe I'd have
01:25:31Williams against
01:25:32Orndorff
01:25:33but Duggan would be against somebody else
01:25:35and they'd have a hell of a match
01:25:37so the guy would get exposed
01:25:39that had never been exposed in Louisiana
01:25:41and I would shoot that angle
01:25:43with Duggan
01:25:44in that guy
01:25:45and show it back
01:25:46rather than
01:25:47Williams and Orndorff
01:25:48because they've seen it a thousand times
01:25:49right
01:25:50so they say
01:25:51oh shit that happened in our town
01:25:53hmm
01:25:54well yeah
01:25:55I mean TV
01:25:56and everyone can take a lesson from this
01:25:57that
01:25:58TV is
01:25:59is the life blood of your business
01:26:01and the wrestling business
01:26:02and certainly in 84 it was
01:26:04it was unheard of to
01:26:06to do anything without television
01:26:08and that's the national expansion
01:26:13OK
01:26:23OK
01:26:24so we've heard about the heavyweight title
01:26:26the IC title
01:26:27tag titles
01:26:28now
01:26:29let's talk to you
01:26:30some of the other guys
01:26:31on the roster
01:26:32what do we do with them
01:26:33for the year 1984
01:26:34WWE
01:26:35OK
01:26:36again I said that
01:26:37you have
01:26:38Barry Windham
01:26:39one of the
01:26:40premier babyfaces
01:26:41of all times
01:26:44bled
01:26:45could do anything
01:26:47so
01:26:48you need to do something with Barry
01:26:51and a guy we didn't mention
01:26:53is Rick Roode
01:26:56Roode and Barry
01:26:58go together
01:26:59like a glove
01:27:00hand in a glove
01:27:02that
01:27:03two good looking guys
01:27:05two athletic guys
01:27:13so
01:27:16I would
01:27:18off the top of my head
01:27:21if we had
01:27:22what we have now
01:27:23is we put our
01:27:24main guys in
01:27:26in place
01:27:27and we want
01:27:28Roode
01:27:29and Windham
01:27:30to go to the
01:27:31second or third show
01:27:32is be the main event
01:27:34and they're gonna move up the ladder
01:27:36they're gonna be
01:27:37for the following year
01:27:39so
01:27:40we're gonna steal
01:27:42almost the Andre
01:27:44Hogan
01:27:45angle
01:27:47most
01:27:48improved
01:27:49to the most popular
01:27:50or the
01:27:52for these two
01:27:53it'd be
01:27:54the most handsome
01:27:57the girls vote
01:27:58who's the most handsome wrestler
01:28:01and you get the girls voting
01:28:03and you charge them to vote
01:28:06right
01:28:07we have a number you call in
01:28:10so
01:28:12we know
01:28:14that Barry's gonna win
01:28:16because he's the baby face
01:28:18so when Barry gets
01:28:20the trophy that night
01:28:21Roode comes out
01:28:22and what does he do
01:28:23but whack that handsome pretty boy in the face
01:28:26who goes down
01:28:27a pile of blood
01:28:28and he puts the boots to him
01:28:30and Roode walks off
01:28:32with the trophy
01:28:34now it's Roode's trophy
01:28:36because he feels that he's the real winner
01:28:39and our angle is the trophy
01:28:43and
01:28:44we can end up with
01:28:47and I hate to use this
01:28:49but you could end up with
01:28:51the trophy on the pole match
01:28:53I worked with his father
01:28:55Hangman Newsome
01:28:57you know how ridiculous was that
01:28:59I hang someone's gonna get hung
01:29:01and of course it was me
01:29:03every time I have two and I'm 0 for 2
01:29:06I think I better quit that match
01:29:08but anyway
01:29:09you have to
01:29:10who was
01:29:11Dusty
01:29:12oh Dusty that's right
01:29:13I was bleeding so bad
01:29:15my feet slipped off the turnbuckle
01:29:17I actually hung myself
01:29:18and I was gushing out
01:29:20and then
01:29:21Mulligan and I
01:29:22was in the orange bowl
01:29:24but
01:29:25so
01:29:26we would end up with
01:29:27Roode
01:29:28and Windham
01:29:29in December
01:29:32with that loaded card
01:29:35and the pole
01:29:37I can start writing these down
01:29:39we have a full card there in December
01:29:41so we're gonna do the blow off for Roode
01:29:45Windham
01:29:48so how do you sustain
01:29:51an angle like that
01:29:52you've got the initial
01:29:53you know the initial thing happens in
01:29:55I'll pick an arbitrary month
01:29:57with the voting
01:29:58the lead up is the voting
01:30:00then you've got the start of the angle
01:30:02which is the ceremony when he turns
01:30:04not turns on but he whacks him with the thing
01:30:06takes it off
01:30:07now you've got a few months
01:30:08you've got to build it up
01:30:09you've got to get it hot
01:30:10you've got to use your TV
01:30:13but not
01:30:14but not have a blow off
01:30:15right
01:30:16what's the psychology there
01:30:17the psychology is
01:30:18in my head
01:30:21things should start at A
01:30:24and go A B C
01:30:27things shouldn't start at V
01:30:29and go back to Q
01:30:31and go up to B
01:30:32and then around
01:30:33there's gotta be a follow through
01:30:35and people
01:30:37sometimes say to me
01:30:39well that's too long
01:30:40it's not too long
01:30:42because the guiding light
01:30:43and days of our lives
01:30:44have been on forever
01:30:46right
01:30:49so
01:30:50if
01:30:51Roode and Windham
01:30:53are being put over
01:30:54for January, February, March
01:30:57we know May is gonna be a slack month
01:30:59so we start the voting
01:31:01in April and May
01:31:04and in June
01:31:09in June
01:31:12we shoot the angle
01:31:15okay
01:31:16we can keep this angle going
01:31:18right through to December
01:31:20I mean there's
01:31:21you know
01:31:22we can have all kinds of matches
01:31:24where Roode
01:31:26will maybe lose the match
01:31:28but he lays Barry out
01:31:30and walks off with the thing
01:31:32and at the end of December
01:31:34besides
01:31:37this
01:31:39on the poll
01:31:40the trophy or whatever
01:31:41on the poll
01:31:44the winner
01:31:46is gonna get a date with
01:31:49you tell me who
01:31:50the star of the time
01:31:5184
01:31:53Pamela Anderson
01:31:54whoever it was in 84
01:31:56yeah
01:31:57Madonna
01:31:58yeah Madonna
01:31:59Madonna
01:32:00somebody
01:32:01but she's gonna be there in the audience
01:32:03so
01:32:04you got another
01:32:08exposing
01:32:09a lower card
01:32:12in publicity
01:32:13and the people are gonna wanna get
01:32:15caught into it
01:32:17so
01:32:18right away
01:32:19and then again
01:32:21Roode and Windham can work
01:32:22so
01:32:23we have a great match
01:32:26Roode and Windham
01:32:28a great match with Steamboat
01:32:31in Morocco
01:32:33and a great
01:32:35poster
01:32:36of Superstar and Orndorff
01:32:39so we've protected our main event
01:32:41because
01:32:42they don't have to go too long
01:32:44because these guys are gonna put the time in for us
01:32:47and then we have the angle
01:32:49with the junkyard dog
01:32:50right
01:32:52we have the Freebirds
01:32:53losing the title
01:32:56so we're gonna see a title be lost
01:32:59we're gonna see the junkyard
01:33:01return
01:33:02junkyard dog return
01:33:03from being blinded
01:33:04we're gonna see
01:33:05some kind of celebrity
01:33:07we're gonna see Windham go over
01:33:10we're gonna
01:33:11see
01:33:14and then we're gonna see a
01:33:17a great card
01:33:19and we're gonna get a blow off with
01:33:20two of the best bodies in wrestling
01:33:22and they'll talk
01:33:23people into the building
01:33:26Roode and Windham
01:33:27angle number one
01:33:30music
01:33:43knowing we're going to the garden
01:33:46and we have a
01:33:47hispanic television program
01:33:50we need to put
01:33:51Java on there
01:33:53so who does
01:34:00travel match up with
01:34:01to me
01:34:02the best of all
01:34:04again travel could work at that time
01:34:07probably still can work
01:34:08they can work
01:34:09unbelievable at that time
01:34:12mr. perfect
01:34:13is the guy
01:34:19and
01:34:22mr. perfect
01:34:24we do
01:34:25I believe in doing things subtly
01:34:31I believe in doing things subtly
01:34:35if
01:34:36you were going to build an Aryan race
01:34:40was perfect the Aryan race
01:34:42was Kurt Henning the Aryan race
01:34:45well I have blue eyes
01:34:46looks like it doesn't it
01:34:49you got to dance around the issue
01:34:50but we can do it
01:34:51and back then
01:34:53you know our borders weren't open
01:34:55as much as they are today
01:34:59so that's a hell of a lot of heat
01:35:00for that he's going to get
01:35:01I guess he's going to come out
01:35:03and then job was going to
01:35:04eventually go over in the show
01:35:06right
01:35:07but child was going to
01:35:08take an ass whipping
01:35:10and get
01:35:12the one thing Latino males hate
01:35:14is that machismo
01:35:15taken away from
01:35:17he's going to get taken away from
01:35:18was shoved up his ass
01:35:20pretty good
01:35:21by Kurt
01:35:22but on the blow off
01:35:23he's going to go over
01:35:25so all
01:35:26all this card is
01:35:27that we've done is
01:35:28we've got a lot of heat
01:35:30but on the
01:35:32December show
01:35:33we built heat for a year
01:35:35the people are going to go away
01:35:37feeling satisfied
01:35:39because they're finally
01:35:40going to get the payoff
01:35:41you know one of the arts of
01:35:43booking a big show
01:35:45today would be a pay-per-view
01:35:46our hypothetical example
01:35:48is just a big local show
01:35:51is how to not leave
01:35:53the shelf empty
01:35:56for the following week
01:35:59you have a bunch of blow offs
01:36:01but you've got to do something
01:36:03to keep people coming back
01:36:04the following week
01:36:05right
01:36:06right
01:36:07but the way you're going to
01:36:08keep the people coming back
01:36:09the following week is
01:36:12he'll keep their belt
01:36:14on or off
01:36:16so
01:36:17the ship is going in the same direction
01:36:19but the heel is still leading the company
01:36:21gotcha
01:36:22so
01:36:23now we just need to rearrange
01:36:25now we've got
01:36:26Wyndham
01:36:28who did a job
01:36:29on the first Madison Square Garden show
01:36:32winning on a blow off show
01:36:33against Rood
01:36:34who now would be in position
01:36:36to work at Anglewood
01:36:37for enough
01:36:38gotcha
01:36:39who bloodied him
01:36:40months before
01:36:41yeah
01:36:42so I mean
01:36:44we've got people in pretty good positions
01:36:46and the thing with Chavo
01:36:47the Chavo thing is
01:36:49if you don't
01:36:50understand
01:36:51the Latino audience
01:36:53and how big it is
01:36:54you're missing
01:36:55the fastest growing nationality
01:36:57in this country
01:37:00so how does
01:37:01so how does Henning come out
01:37:02how does it start
01:37:03how does it
01:37:04the race angle
01:37:05how do you
01:37:06how would you do something like that
01:37:07people say well
01:37:08you know they say
01:37:10they hate race issues
01:37:12I hate race issues
01:37:14myself
01:37:15when it's black and white
01:37:17but national issues
01:37:20they've been fighting in Europe
01:37:21over for centuries
01:37:22the nationalities
01:37:24nationalities
01:37:25you can be okay with
01:37:27Chavo could come down
01:37:29and this is 84
01:37:30so that he would be
01:37:31some kind of
01:37:32Mexican music
01:37:34and it's almost
01:37:35going back to
01:37:36raps
01:37:37is crap
01:37:38when Henning did
01:37:39the rap is crap
01:37:40right
01:37:41it was a redneck
01:37:42you almost bring it up
01:37:43go back in time
01:37:45he's playing
01:37:46the Mexican music
01:37:48and all of a sudden
01:37:49Henning's
01:37:50bitching about it
01:37:51bitching about it
01:37:53and the first
01:37:54he bitches about it
01:37:55for a few weeks
01:37:56then the
01:37:57third week
01:37:58or fourth week
01:37:59or however long
01:38:00you can pull it off
01:38:01by getting Chavo over to
01:38:02confrontational
01:38:03Henning backs down
01:38:04like a heel
01:38:05some heel should
01:38:06and Henning would be
01:38:07the heel to back down
01:38:08he goes in the truck
01:38:10and puts on his music
01:38:11halfway through
01:38:12when Chavo's
01:38:13walking down the aisle
01:38:14to a real
01:38:15you know
01:38:17maybe a goose stepping tune
01:38:18I don't know
01:38:19right
01:38:20or something real shit kickery
01:38:21yeah
01:38:23so we build it that way
01:38:24and you can't
01:38:25just
01:38:26load
01:38:27every match
01:38:29because it's going to
01:38:30take away from
01:38:31some of them
01:38:32but given that enough
01:38:34of an oomph
01:38:36now you've got
01:38:38one
01:38:39two
01:38:40three
01:38:41four
01:38:42five matches
01:38:43that mean something
01:38:45your next
01:38:46three matches
01:38:47should be exposing
01:38:48new people
01:38:49that you want to go with
01:38:50and getting
01:38:51those three over
01:38:53and
01:38:54right in the middle
01:38:55finishes
01:38:56with somebody
01:38:57that you've used
01:38:58during the year
01:39:00well
01:39:01we haven't talked
01:39:02about Dusty
01:39:04so
01:39:05Dusty could be used
01:39:06in a capacity
01:39:10for this card
01:39:12or any
01:39:13Dusty could be used
01:39:14on a
01:39:16on an angle
01:39:17that would be a built in angle
01:39:21we could turn
01:39:22and I don't believe in
01:39:23turning guys
01:39:24all the time
01:39:26but you could turn
01:39:27Black Jack Mulligan
01:39:28and Dusty against one another
01:39:31off of a
01:39:32Barry Wyndham
01:39:33thing
01:39:34and what ends up is
01:39:35you have two great
01:39:36interviewers working
01:39:38and on that
01:39:39on this
01:39:40December show
01:39:42it's a Texas
01:39:43death match
01:39:44where are they both from?
01:39:46Texas, yeah
01:39:47okay
01:39:48they're both gonna talk you
01:39:49people into the building
01:39:50take Mama from the kitchen
01:39:52you know
01:39:53American Dream
01:39:54you know
01:39:55kick his ass
01:39:56so okay
01:39:57so now you've got
01:39:58that match
01:39:59and then
01:40:00what you do in the
01:40:01opening match
01:40:02is what I said
01:40:03from the beginning
01:40:04you take your
01:40:05best two pieces
01:40:06of talent
01:40:07left
01:40:08and use them
01:40:11so
01:40:14who would you open
01:40:15that card with?
01:40:16that December card
01:40:17so I would take
01:40:22Orton and Slater
01:40:24against the
01:40:25fabulous ones
01:40:35and that would be
01:40:36the next
01:40:38so now I'd only need
01:40:39one more match
01:40:41to
01:40:45to round out that card
01:40:49and maybe
01:40:51just for glitz
01:40:52and glamour
01:40:55I'd have a
01:40:57six man tag match
01:41:01of David
01:41:02Kerry
01:41:04and Kevin
01:41:05Von Erck
01:41:09I wouldn't put it first
01:41:10of course
01:41:12against heels
01:41:13that are gonna make
01:41:14them look good
01:41:16Saito
01:41:17Koloff
01:41:19they're all
01:41:20this is all American
01:41:21boys against
01:41:22foreigner gimmick
01:41:23the foreigners
01:41:24and
01:41:26I guess
01:41:30was
01:41:31the Russian still there?
01:41:33oh the Sheik
01:41:35that's true
01:41:36the Sheik
01:41:40you could throw a missing link in there too
01:41:41who knows where the hell he's from
01:41:43so that gives us
01:41:44our seven matches
01:41:45so our
01:41:46December card
01:41:47ends up being
01:41:48as you can see
01:41:49in my chicken scratch
01:41:51up top
01:41:52the title for title
01:41:53IC and heavyweight
01:41:54Orndorff Graham
01:41:56fabulous ones
01:41:57JYD and Reid
01:41:58I'm sorry
01:41:59Freebirds
01:42:00coming off the blinding angle
01:42:01with JYD
01:42:03Steamboat in Morocco
01:42:05Ruud and Windham
01:42:07from the vote
01:42:10Chavo and Hennig
01:42:11working a
01:42:13nationality angle
01:42:15Dusty and Mogan
01:42:16splitting and going
01:42:17against each other
01:42:19hot tag match
01:42:20with
01:42:21Orton and Slater
01:42:22fabulous ones
01:42:23and then a six man
01:42:24with the Von Erich boys
01:42:25against
01:42:26some foreigners
01:42:27I'd pay to see it
01:42:30thanks
01:42:31thank you
01:42:32appreciate it
01:42:33that's 1984 in the WWE
01:42:35if they hired Kevin
01:42:39I'd pay to see it
01:42:40thank you
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