Past Imperfect Episode 14: Swadeshi Steam with A.R. Venkatachalapathy
How did one man take on one of the world’s biggest multinational corporations of the early twentieth century? A.R. Venkatachalapathy’s Swadeshi Steam traces the life of V.O. Chidambaram Pillai who, in 1906, founded the Swadeshi Steam Navigation Company to break a British shipping monopoly. Swadeshi Steam was powered by both patriotism and remarkable business acumen: it canvassed shares from across India and the global Indian diaspora.
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00:00:00You're listening to Past Imperfect, a history podcast brought to you by the Center for Wisdom
00:00:05in Leadership at SPJIMR.
00:00:08I'm Dinyar Patel.
00:00:10In 1906, an obscure individual from an obscure South Indian port town came up with an audacious
00:00:16plan.
00:00:17V.O.
00:00:18Chidambaram Pillai, fired with Swadeshi spirit, decided to take on the commercial might of
00:00:22the British Indian steam navigation company, perhaps the world's biggest shipping company
00:00:28at the time.
00:00:29Today, I'm joined by A.R. Venkata Chalapati, who has spent the past four decades of his
00:00:34life researching Pillai and his company, the Swadeshi steam navigation company.
00:00:40Swadeshi steam was a political act, but it was also a remarkable business venture.
00:00:45It raised capital from people across India, Burma, and South Africa, and before it was
00:00:50brutally crushed by the British Indian government, successfully challenged one of the world's
00:00:55great multinational corporations.
00:00:59Thank you, Chalapati, for joining me today.
00:01:01So your book, Swadeshi Steam, documents a pretty incredible story about how one man,
00:01:06V.O.
00:01:07Chidambaram Pillai, or V.O.C. as you refer to him, founded a steamship company in 1906
00:01:12in Tuticorin in South India to take on the monopoly of British-owned shipping.
00:01:18And you talk about in your book how V.O.C. challenged both the political and economic
00:01:22might of the British Empire by doing so.
00:01:25I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about how precisely he did this.
00:01:29Thank you, Dinir, for having me here.
00:01:31It's a delight to be in conversation with a fellow scholar.
00:01:36So Chidambaram Pillai has been, I've been fascinated by Chidambaram Pillai ever since
00:01:40I was a young boy, I was in school.
00:01:43So the crowning achievement of this man was that deep, in the deep south, in the port
00:01:50town of Tuticorin, he decides to take on the British India Steam Navigation Company,
00:01:59challenges it by starting a shipping company.
00:02:02It actually does very well for a year or two before it is completely crushed.
00:02:07So this much of the story is very well known across Tamil Nadu.
00:02:12And Chidambaram Pillai is a local hero, that much is known.
00:02:17But unfortunately, we know in the Indian context, very little work gets done on many
00:02:23of our stalwarts.
00:02:24Of course.
00:02:25And on this particular case, Tamil Nadu, the Dravidian model might be an exemplary model
00:02:33and on all human development indicators, Tamil Nadu is leading other parts of India.
00:02:41But I suppose, in the area of writing history, we are somewhat laggards.
00:02:49So this is what I have tried to do by piecing together bits and pieces of information across
00:02:55a wide variety of archives, I have tried to write this story.
00:03:00Briefly put it as like this, at the beginning of the 20th century, Tuticorin or Tutukudi
00:03:08is probably the fifth or the sixth largest port in colonial India.
00:03:15So it has a fairly vibrant trade.
00:03:19The main trade is between South India and Colombo, but it is also part of the larger
00:03:25Indian Ocean trade because it is one important point there.
00:03:30So the traders in Tuticorin had been trading from that port for a very long time.
00:03:36Now, as I also mentioned, that particular part, because of the changing coastline, still
00:03:44there has been a port for something like more than 2000 years, it has been part of the Indo
00:03:49Kree, is basically the trade with the Mediterranean and the Arab trade.
00:03:54There is a long story, but what happens in the mid 19th century is that it gets integrated
00:04:00into the imperialist trade network.
00:04:05And the British India Steam Navigation Company, or BI as it is called, has a monopoly over
00:04:12this trade.
00:04:13Just to clarify, so you mentioned in your book that the British India Steam Navigation
00:04:17Company was the largest steam company, steam shipping company in the world at that time
00:04:22and British owned.
00:04:23Yes, probably.
00:04:24It is along with the P&O, the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, it is either
00:04:33the largest or one of the largest companies.
00:04:37And by 1960, during the First World War, these two behemoths get amalgamated and they become
00:04:45the biggest, undoubtedly the biggest.
00:04:48BI focuses on coastal trade, it is into passenger trade and it has a guaranteed mail contract
00:04:56with the government and it also is involved in moving troops.
00:05:04It moved the troops during the Great Revolt of 1857 and it was a very important carrier
00:05:10of indentured labour from South India and also from North India.
00:05:16What in the literature is called the Girmitiyas and what in South India it is called the Coolies.
00:05:23So it is a really powerful company and it also strengthens its monopoly by a variety
00:05:30of means.
00:05:31One of the things that it does is kill the coastal trade of the Coromandel Coast which
00:05:37was dotted by a number of small ports.
00:05:43So basically the story is that any trader would actually, if he had to transport some
00:05:50stuff, he would sit on the coast with an umbrella and whenever he saw a ship going by, he would
00:05:56hold up the umbrella and the ship would get the stuff and go.
00:05:59But this is not how imperialist shipping companies work.
00:06:04So what they do is the BI, British India Company, joins hands with the South Indian Railway
00:06:12which is another British owned railway company.
00:06:14They build a network in South India and then kill all the small port towns, small ports
00:06:22on the Coromandel Coast and the traders are all forced to move their goods through the
00:06:30South Indian Railway, either ship it from Madras or ship it from Tuticorin.
00:06:37So by the end of the 19th century, BI's monopoly is complete.
00:06:42And I think it's important to note that this is something that's going on all across India,
00:06:47in the sense that you have a pretty vibrant coasting trade in places like Bengal or what
00:06:52is today coastal Maharashtra and Gujarat.
00:06:55But as the railways move in and as these big steam shipping companies which are British
00:07:00dominated get even bigger and mightier, indigenous competition gets completely wiped out.
00:07:07Yes, absolutely.
00:07:08This is a global story, but these stories from the South have really not been studied.
00:07:16Of course not.
00:07:17I think the details are as important as the larger story, but it has their own inflections.
00:07:21So it does that and the other aspect of it is that the British India Company runs completely
00:07:32with European agents, not to speak of the ships themselves.
00:07:38We know that the ships were run by, manned by the captains, the maids, the engineers
00:07:47were all European.
00:07:49And the bulk of the wage bill went to this very cream of the crew who are all Europeans
00:07:57and while the menial work was all done by Indians, by Indians I mean the Indians of
00:08:03the entire Indian subcontinent.
00:08:05So the other aspect of it was that there was a clear racial dimension to this whole trail
00:08:15apart from the crew that I mentioned because the agents were all British, Scottish.
00:08:22It was clearly inflected by their racist attitude towards the Indian traders.
00:08:30The Indian traders were smarting under this insult for a long time, but by the beginning
00:08:36of the 20th century, the first few years, there is a churning.
00:08:40By about the 1880s, once again your work on Naoroji comes to my mind.
00:08:46By the late 19th century, the idea of India's exploitation, economic exploitation being
00:08:55at the root of colonialism becomes a very powerful idea which gets great traction with
00:09:02the new intellectuals and this spreads across India and it has its reverberations in South
00:09:11India.
00:09:12People like Subramanya Iyer clearly writes this wonderful book called Economic Aspects
00:09:18of British Rule in India.
00:09:20So in South India, a book that does not get enough attention in many ways, I mean we know
00:09:24about Ranade, we know about Naoroji, we know about Dutt, Iyer is someone who really gets
00:09:28left out of the conversation.
00:09:30Absolutely.
00:09:31So Chidambaram Pillai who is in Thoothukudi is clearly familiar with what is happening
00:09:38all over India.
00:09:40He says very clearly that he is reading all the newspapers and he was very well aware
00:09:45of G. Subramanya Iyer because G. Subramanya Iyer is not only the founder editor of the
00:09:50Hindu but at this time he is also the founder editor of the Surya Samitra which is a really
00:09:57really excellent daily, very sharp analysis, biting, cutting language.
00:10:05So clearly the idea of economic nationalism has seeped deep into the South and in the
00:10:12context of the Swadeshi movement after the partition of Bengal, Chidambaram Pillai I
00:10:18think you know he is fired by this idea.
00:10:21We don't know the full details but it is very clear that he has been reading all this
00:10:25stuff and he is taking this up.
00:10:28So that is the origin of the shipping company.
00:10:33So it is really quite a remarkable account in the sense that you talk about this one
00:10:37man V.O.C. who takes on again kind of the, if you will, the Google, the Apple, the Facebook
00:10:44of that era except of course in a very different domain in shipping.
00:10:47We will get to that in just a second but I want to foreground it by talking about the
00:10:52Swadeshi movement.
00:10:53V.O.C. establishes this company around 1906 and from 1905 onward all across India but
00:11:00of course very much centred in Bengal you have the Swadeshi movement taking place and
00:11:07you know this is regarded by many Indian historians as quite a turning point in Indian nationalism
00:11:11in the sense that you know finally you have popular activism for a nationalist agenda
00:11:19and it is linked with campaigns like boycotting British goods, setting up Indian companies,
00:11:25talking about the promotion of Indian talents and Indian management and a lot of development
00:11:29and a lot of the ideas that you were talking about earlier with regards to economic nationalism
00:11:34written by authors like people like Iyer and Dutt and Naroji and Ranade.
00:11:39But when we talk about the Swadeshi movement we mostly talk about Bengal and your book
00:11:43really shows that other parts of India are playing a very important part in this movement
00:11:48as well.
00:11:49South India, as you had noted earlier, often times gets a very short shrift when we talk
00:11:55about modern Indian history and especially I think when we talk about Indian nationalism
00:12:00and things like the Swadeshi movement.
00:12:02So the question I want to ask you is how does the story of V.O.C. and the Swadeshi steam
00:12:07navigation company revise our understandings of both the Swadeshi movement and South India's
00:12:14larger role in Indian nationalism?
00:12:15Tamil Nadu, South India, we have always had this you know grouse that you know we are
00:12:22given short shrift.
00:12:24That is largely true.
00:12:25Absolutely.
00:12:26That is absolutely true.
00:12:28But there is also a failing on our part.
00:12:32As I said the South Indian or Tamil intellectuals, when we modernized we put a premium on what
00:12:42is now called STEM, Science, Technology, Engineering, Medicine and we did not give adequate attention
00:12:50to the social sciences.
00:12:53So that said, when I started working on this, yes I did swim against the tide.
00:12:59I decided not to take up STEM and you know wanted to pursue history.
00:13:04So this particular story I would say revises our existing understanding to a great extent.
00:13:12Of course more work needs to be done.
00:13:14There are some one or two interesting monographs.
00:13:18We have for instance this book by Rajendran on the Nationalist Movement in Tamil Nadu.
00:13:25It just covers you know the first two decades.
00:13:30But more work needs to be done.
00:13:33That said, this story shows that Bengal even though it was the epicenter and also the bigger
00:13:41ramifications of the Swadeshi movement were in Bengal.
00:13:45We also know that Maharashtra under Tilak was one another important seedbed.
00:13:53Punjab was active.
00:13:55In South India itself there were two or three centers.
00:13:59One is the coastal Andhra.
00:14:02The area around the Rajahmundry was quite active.
00:14:06Chennai was a very important locus.
00:14:09Tuticorin becomes you know kind of becomes like an ast, you know like a meteor.
00:14:15Meteor would be the right term.
00:14:16For about three to four years it becomes, it attracts all India's attention because
00:14:23there is a very vibrant movement and this is also a very spectacular movement as I mentioned.
00:14:30Swadeshi movement though the dreams were big, the aspirations were big, in terms of material
00:14:39manifestation it was more modest.
00:14:43Even in Bengal though we had you know chemical companies and other things, you know the given
00:14:49the context that there was so little capital, so little managerial ability, it is actually
00:14:56very very surprising, even astonishing to think that somebody would want to launch a
00:15:04shipping company.
00:15:05In that sense I think it completely revises our understanding of the scope, the breadth
00:15:15and the depth of the Swadeshi movement and it is kind of ironic that this happens not
00:15:23in the core area but in the peripheral area.
00:15:27So now we really know that because of you know the close work that is done.
00:15:33The capital was mobilized from across South India and even further up apart, you know
00:15:41even in Bengal they were able to raise shares.
00:15:45So I don't see for instance the question of selling shares as purely a monetary transaction,
00:15:52a business transaction.
00:15:55Every rupee that was parted by the public for the shipping company actually meant an
00:16:02understanding of the idea of nationalism, the understanding of the economic exploitation
00:16:10that underpinned colonialism.
00:16:12So we really really need to talk more about the all India nature of Indian nationalism
00:16:19which I think is the real strength of the movement.
00:16:24Absolutely and you know I think your book really helps us bring not just the Majast
00:16:30Presidency but you know as you mentioned relatively I guess what you'd call today
00:16:33second tier towns and cities, places like Tuticorin to the forefront.
00:16:38I mean the Majast Presidency had its reputation in the colonial era of being called the benighted
00:16:44presidency as you mentioned in your book and you know I think as more work is being done
00:16:49that reputation is being questioned and it also shows how Swadeshi is very different
00:16:55in different parts of the country right.
00:16:58I mean Bengal and in the Majast sorry Bengal and in the Bombay Presidency it's located
00:17:04in big urban conglomerations like Calcutta or Bombay and Ahmedabad and Majast it could
00:17:09be in a place like Tuticorin but as importantly as you show in the Majast Presidency it did
00:17:15not take on that kind of communalist flavor, it did not alienate Muslims.
00:17:19In fact you show how VOC worked with Christians, he worked with Muslims, he worked with people
00:17:24from non-upper caste backgrounds and there was a great degree of public support from
00:17:29these different groups as well.
00:17:31Yeah, now before I get to your question I also want to add something, when I say South
00:17:38India in terms of you know the reach of Swadeshi movement, something that I don't really discuss
00:17:45in my book, this particular book but I hope to write about it more, Ravankur state was
00:17:51also part of this.
00:17:53So we don't often associate Ravankur with the Indian Nationalist movement until the
00:17:58Vaikunth Satyagraha happens in 1924-25.
00:18:02So I make reference to the assassination of Robert Ash who was seen as a villain in the
00:18:11crushing of the Swadeshi company.
00:18:13So the 14 people who were indicted in that conspiracy case, 8 of them came from Ravankur.
00:18:24So we also need to think a little more about the perceived silence of the Ravankur, of
00:18:35the native states.
00:18:37So we actually need to do more work.
00:18:40So now actually coming to you know the very, very pertinent question of the social composition
00:18:47of the Swadeshi company, now you are bang on target, so I think it's a very, very interesting
00:18:53and important point especially given the context in which we live where the idea of the nation
00:19:00seems to be very, very closely linked to the religion in which you are born.
00:19:07Actually you know all non-Hindus, their loyalty and patriotism is always suspect but we do
00:19:14understand what happens in Bengal, you know so much work has been done about it, we have
00:19:21Sumit Sarkar's great work.
00:19:24The situation of Bengal is very different given that in East Bengal, the vast majority
00:19:31of the peasants were almost exclusively Muslim and the landlords and to make it worse most
00:19:40of them turned out to be absentee landlords, they are all Hindus and also the way the movement
00:19:48shaped the challenge of how to mobilize people, you know without recourse to pre-modern forms
00:19:58of communitarian mobilization was a big challenge.
00:20:03So each people have to handle it in their own way, we can analyze but we cannot judge
00:20:09100 years later but in the Tamil context, I would say that the kind of deep divides
00:20:16that existed in Bengal did not exist for a variety of reasons because the arrival of
00:20:24Islam and Christianity in South India was through the course, it didn't come through
00:20:31the pass, passes.
00:20:37It came through the modality of trade and we always know that trade is a very interesting
00:20:45way of cultural assimilation because it comes slowly, it comes with novel artifacts and
00:20:52ideas and the zone of contact is not one of antagonism but of given take.
00:21:01So Islam comes through that conduit and it is spread over a very long period.
00:21:09Basically the South India's engagement with Islam dates to the time of the prophet.
00:21:16So that's how long it is and coming to the question of Christianity itself, once again
00:21:21there are two aspects to it and Tuticorin, the place where this entire movement takes
00:21:25place is the site of the first mass conversion of a community to Christianity, Catholic Christianity
00:21:36in the context of very interestingly the kind of, you know, violent nature of the Indian Ocean.
00:21:47Is this the Parava community?
00:21:48Yes, the Parava community.
00:21:51So in the mid-16th century, overnight the entire community is baptized into Christianity
00:22:00by the Portuguese through Francis Xavier because as a protection from the piratical and warroding
00:22:11nature of the Moor or the Arab traders.
00:22:15But this was a very different kind of a conversion.
00:22:18So that is one part.
00:22:21The other part is that Christianity's deep inroads into South India actually takes place
00:22:28in the deep south of Tamil Nadu, this exact region where the Swadeshi movement is powerful
00:22:36and a very important aspect of that is if the Catholics in the 16th and 17th century
00:22:44believed in the trickle-down theory of, you know, converting the upper caste and hoping
00:22:49that and expecting it to trickle down to the masses, it doesn't seem to work both culturally
00:22:56and also economically.
00:22:57Even now, you know, they say that if the top layer of Indian society becomes rich, it will
00:23:04trickle down to the people below.
00:23:07Obviously neither money nor culture or religion happens that way.
00:23:11That's a different battle to wage.
00:23:13Yes.
00:23:14So the Protestant missionaries in the 19th century focused on the lower caste and they
00:23:22made a very big impact on the lower caste.
00:23:25You know, so within two generations, there was a great leap in their social mobility.
00:23:30They got educated, they had better health services, they made use of the access to education
00:23:39and so all this creates a climate where despite the friction, there is also much give and
00:23:47take and I would also credit the leadership.
00:23:50There is a very very conscious attempt on the part of V.O.C. Chidambaram Pillai and
00:23:57others even though there was recourse to some religious idiom, there was a conscious decision
00:24:02to, you know, be accommodative.
00:24:04Also as I have mentioned, in terms of religious communities, Hindus, Christians, Muslims
00:24:12are very much part of the company.
00:24:14There are at least three if not four directors in the company because director, there was
00:24:22a share qualification for becoming a director.
00:24:25So at least a hundred shares had to be taken, which would mean 2500 rupees.
00:24:32So whatever the limitations of the social composition of the company came from the economic
00:24:42constraint and not the social constraint.
00:24:46So if there were not adequate lower caste, there were lower caste.
00:24:51I mentioned that, you know, we have Nadars are there, we have many other backward castes,
00:24:59you know, the Maravars are there, the upper caste Vellalars, Chettiyars, Brahmins are
00:25:07all there.
00:25:08If some, there are no Dalit communities, it is because of the economic constraint, not
00:25:18because of the social vision of its founders.
00:25:24So the very nature also of the crowds.
00:25:30So we have fairly ample discussion of the crowds by the police.
00:25:35From the police reports clearly indicate that the crowds that came to listen to the Swadeshi
00:25:42lectures were from all communities and all castes.
00:25:47So we can get that from the description as, you know, the crowd is rowdy, the crowd is
00:25:53full of badmashers, the crowd is full of scoundrels.
00:25:57I see it as proof of the fact that the crowds came from the lower orders of society both
00:26:08in terms of caste and class.
00:26:12So already I think we can establish that things are very, very different from say what's going
00:26:16on in Bengal or even in Maharashtra and Gujarat where, you know, merchant communities or,
00:26:22you know, in Maharashtra a lot of Brahmins were involved in Swadeshi activism.
00:26:28So let's turn to the story of VOC.
00:26:31So you describe in the book how VOC as a second grade leader, someone who did not have too
00:26:37much education, jumps into the limelight, right?
00:26:41Someone who, you know, had been involved in some nationalist activity beforehand, had
00:26:45I think attended one of the Madras Congress sessions, for example, but relatively obscure.
00:26:50And he just completely jumps out from nowhere into the nationalist spotlight by helping
00:26:55found this organization, the Swadeshi Steam Navigation Company, and also then becoming
00:27:00the preeminent leader of this organization, even though he only holds the official role
00:27:05of I think what, assistant secretary ship, as you mentioned.
00:27:09And it was designed, as you mentioned, to challenge this group, the British India Steam
00:27:12Navigation Company, one of the world's, if not the world's largest shipping behemoth.
00:27:18What exactly was VOC's plan to bring Swadeshi activism to the south of India and also more
00:27:25directly to challenge BI?
00:27:28Can you take us through the precise steps that VOC had in mind?
00:27:33So as you mentioned, Chidambaram Pillai came from a fairly modest background.
00:27:41Yes, he belongs to a landholding company, landholding family and community, fairly well
00:27:48off.
00:27:49But in terms of educational accomplishments, formal educational accomplishments, he is
00:27:54not a graduate.
00:27:55He is a matriculate and then he has acquired a leadership certificate.
00:27:59Because of his background, his social background, he has cultural and intellectual capital.
00:28:07So his community is known for its cultural accomplishments.
00:28:14So they have close links with the Saiva monasteries.
00:28:19So they have access to traditional forms of knowledge.
00:28:24But that said, it is nowhere in comparison with the kind of access that other nationalists
00:28:32had.
00:28:33He didn't go to the big colleges in Madras city or Kumbakonam or Tiruchy or even Madurai.
00:28:40So that is one aspect.
00:28:42But unfortunately, we know very little about what sparked his interest in the nationalist
00:28:48movement.
00:28:50He mentions two things, very tantalizing bits of information.
00:28:57One is that he very clearly states that in 1893, I was first under the impression that
00:29:05it could be a misprint.
00:29:07But very clearly he says in 1893, when I was 21 years of age, I came across the writings
00:29:14of Tilak.
00:29:16So he says he is aware of it.
00:29:18Then we don't know anything until 1898 when he is participating in a local Congress meeting
00:29:26in his own village to select or elect delegates to the 1898 Madras Congress.
00:29:35But he doesn't actually go to the Congress.
00:29:37We don't know why.
00:29:39And then the next bit of information we have of what inspired him was, he says he met Swami
00:29:46Ramakrishnananda, who is one of the first disciples of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa.
00:29:55So basically in terms of seniority, probably he is even more senior than Swami Vivekananda.
00:30:02But he is a very important monk who lives in Chennai for about nearly 15 years.
00:30:09So Chidambaram Pillai says that he meets him, he met him once and then the conversation
00:30:16that we had with him, he said, planted the seed of Swadeshism in his heart.
00:30:23That is what he says.
00:30:25Beyond that we don't know anything.
00:30:28But he also mentions that he was reading newspapers.
00:30:31He makes a very clear expression that I kept pace with what was happening in the world
00:30:38through the newspaper.
00:30:39So he knew what was happening in South India.
00:30:43He knew the larger nationalist project, knew what was happening in Maharashtra and Bengal.
00:30:50And also from the prospectors, the first prospectors that he releases, he is very clearly aware
00:30:56of the larger global context.
00:30:59So we actually find some parallels with Tagore.
00:31:03You know, Tagore talks about the revival of India not in isolation, but the revival of
00:31:11India in the context of the revival of the East.
00:31:15So this is an idea that really, really finds expression in Chidambaram.
00:31:21Pan-Asianism.
00:31:22Pan-Asianism.
00:31:24So you find that in the prospectors, he says that we will try our best not to hire any
00:31:32European marine professional.
00:31:35We will actually try to go for Asiatics.
00:31:38Basically, it means Japanese.
00:31:42He also promises that he will get Indian sailors trained in Japan.
00:31:49He constantly talks about Asiatic revival.
00:31:53Then the other aspect that you find is also, you know, there is a sense of history.
00:31:58He is very keenly aware, even if vaguely, that India was a glorious civilization.
00:32:06And by glorious civilization, he did not just mean cultural achievements, but he also meant
00:32:12economic achievements, maritime exploits and other exploits.
00:32:18But here, once again, it's a very curious thing.
00:32:21Now, in 2024, entire India is aware of the naval exploits of the Cholas, right?
00:32:29After the Puneet Selvan film has come.
00:32:32But when Chidambaram Pillai wrote this prospectus for the shipping company, he actually makes
00:32:38no mention of the Cholas.
00:32:40Why?
00:32:41Because it was not known.
00:32:44So it comes to light only in the 1920s.
00:32:47But that said, he was very much aware of, or at least bought into the discourse of the
00:32:56great ancient industries of India.
00:33:00So very clearly buying into the arguments and the evidence presented by Navroji, R.C.
00:33:09Dutt and others that it is with the arrival of the British that we have been de-industrialized.
00:33:17That is a point that he constantly makes.
00:33:20So this is the larger climate that he was working in and he was very much aware of all
00:33:28these ideas.
00:33:30So that is how he sets out to do it.
00:33:34How he breaks away from the pack is that he thinks of this spectacular idea of starting
00:33:42a shipping company.
00:33:43Here also it is very interesting that he does not jump to that idea right away.
00:33:49First he is going only for the chartering of ships.
00:33:53I mentioned the Bora Muslim company of SRG Torch Boy called Shoreline Company from Bombay.
00:34:01They charter a ship.
00:34:03It turns out to be a very fractious and difficult relationship.
00:34:09So anybody else would have given up the idea.
00:34:14But what really captures our imagination is that this man, rather than being disheartened
00:34:22by a fairly audacious step, chartering a ship is itself quite a challenging task.
00:34:33We also have to remember that Chidambaram Pillai did not go to IIM, he did not go to
00:34:41the IIMs.
00:34:42He was not aware of management principles and had no experience in business management.
00:34:49So instead of being disheartened, he actually decides to make a further leap of starting
00:34:57a shipping company.
00:35:00So the shipping company, the idea itself is big.
00:35:03He thinks of an authorized capital of 10 lakhs of rupees.
00:35:07It is a huge, huge sum.
00:35:10Massive amount in that.
00:35:11Massive amount.
00:35:12Absolutely massive.
00:35:13Absolutely massive amount.
00:35:14Very clearly he understands the concept of a joint stock company.
00:35:21In the 21st century, when we register limited companies left, right and center, this must
00:35:31have been something completely new.
00:35:34And certainly in a small town like Tuticorin, actually from the evidence that I have noted,
00:35:41barely a handful of companies had been registered, public limited companies had been, joint stock
00:35:51companies as they were called, south of Madras.
00:35:55And whatever were registered were all British companies, Harveys were a joint stock company,
00:36:01but that is a British company.
00:36:03So he makes that leap and that is what marks him out from others.
00:36:11And that is why, despite the disadvantage of location, he bursts into the national scene.
00:36:19He also builds a network.
00:36:22He establishes branches in Colombo, Madras, in Calcutta and in Bombay.
00:36:30And he gets shareholders and people who are donating money from huge, huge geographical
00:36:37Natal, Southeast Asia, of course, all across India as well.
00:36:43And then Sri Lanka as well.
00:36:46So this is the idea.
00:36:47And that is what is, it is a mystery.
00:36:53How this man, with this limited and modest background, first can conceive of this idea,
00:37:08then secondly, that he can actually execute it, and thirdly, to anticipate your question
00:37:16Thirdly, the question is, where does he get the courage?
00:37:21You know, very clearly, you know, he is not jumping into it without thinking, he is not
00:37:30going to be given, you know, subsidies by the British government for starting this company.
00:37:36He knows what he is in for.
00:37:38In many ways, it's quite an audacious venture.
00:37:41I think that might be the best word to capture it in the sense that, you know, establishing
00:37:46a company under colonial conditions is difficult enough.
00:37:49But doing so on such a scale and against such an incredibly powerful rival, which, as you
00:37:55mentioned in your book, was basically a parastatal organization, an organization that had close
00:38:00intimate links with the colonial government, that took, you know, to put it mildly, a great
00:38:06degree of courage.
00:38:09This is the other aspect of it.
00:38:12So it is evident that he knew what he was in for.
00:38:20And as the obstacles increased, you know, the first year, for the first six months,
00:38:27trouble comes only from the BI company, that is the local agents.
00:38:33They think, you know, this would be one other flash in the pan.
00:38:38Something they can easily crush.
00:38:39Yes, yes.
00:38:40Initial rush of blood, of which, you know, I'm sorry to say, we Indians, our compatriots
00:38:48are very good at.
00:38:52So many of our big projects have fizzled out.
00:38:56So that is what they think.
00:38:58But as it slowly gains traction, so you find that they start giving pinpricks.
00:39:06When it snowballs into things bigger, they start using the local district administration,
00:39:16the police and the district officers and the court officers to give trouble.
00:39:23Then by the time the company, the Swadeshi company decides to buy ships, and you know,
00:39:32this is, he's actually trying to, you know, he's running the gauntlet.
00:39:35Chidambaram Pillai is, you know, moving farther and farther up.
00:39:40And what he does is, politics is very much part of this enterprise.
00:39:47All through this promotion of the company, he's organizing public meetings, traveling
00:39:53far and wide, giving Swadeshi speeches, selling the idea of Swadeshi enterprise.
00:40:01When his fellow promoters, the other traders, most of them decide that, you know, you shouldn't
00:40:09take politics too far because it is going to cause trouble for the company.
00:40:15He rather than backtracking, so this is what makes Chidambaram Pillai the big hero that
00:40:21he becomes.
00:40:22Instead of backtracking, he actually ups the ante.
00:40:31So we actually find the district collector and others, also his colleagues, saying that
00:40:36after he goes to Surat.
00:40:38The Surat Congress of 1907, yeah.
00:40:42He actually comes back even more fired up.
00:40:47And this, of course, is the Congress session where the radicals and the moderates split.
00:40:53The other change is that, until that point, even that point, he's still seen only as a
00:41:02very local leader.
00:41:05But within that one week of his traveling to Bombay and then going to Surat and coming
00:41:11back, for instance, Subramanya Bharathi is now saying, our leader, he says, namadu thalaivar.
00:41:21So he's becoming a leader.
00:41:24Obviously, the respect that he's able to command with the leadership, you know, Tilak, Aravinda
00:41:32Ghosh, Lajpat Rai, Mothilal Ghosh and others is very, so that is, until that point, he's
00:41:41seen only as a very local leader.
00:41:46This is when he begins to rub shoulders.
00:41:48But that also is striking because he steps into this great and challenging project before
00:42:01his closeness to the All India leadership.
00:42:06This interaction and closeness with the All India leadership happens after he's actually
00:42:14started this big project.
00:42:16That is also something.
00:42:17Then the local support he's able to build.
00:42:21So I've made an analysis of all those who are arrested following Chidambaram Pillai's
00:42:28imprisonment.
00:42:29They come from all communities, all castes, all classes.
00:42:38So it becomes a direct fight and then we see this, that the government, the governor
00:42:46of Madras presidency, this huge sprawling presidency, Arthur Lally almost takes Chidambaram
00:42:55Pillai's challenge personally.
00:42:58So you can see that he is personally involved in ensuring that Chidambaram Pillai is put
00:43:08behind bars.
00:43:10So in that long 32-page fine print document where he meets a deputation from Tirunelveli,
00:43:20it is full of references to Chidambaram Pillai where he is basically saying, why are you,
00:43:25why have you let him loose for so long?
00:43:29Why did you give him such a long rope?
00:43:31Why did you permit him to take this anti-government, strident nationalist stance?
00:43:40So that is the undercurrent of this opposition.
00:43:45So the British, both the company, the PI company and the government, to them it is clear that
00:43:53it is not a flash in the pan, it is not just a storm in the teacup, it is having the potential
00:44:00to boil over and become a challenge to the British economic and political mind.
00:44:09So by early 1908, VOC is in many ways doing a two-part act, in the sense that he has become,
00:44:14as you write in your book, the acknowledged leader of the Swadeshi movement in the Madras
00:44:18presidency.
00:44:20He is someone who is recognized as the preeminent leader of the radicals in much of South India.
00:44:26He had a chance to meet with many other associates of Tilak at the Surat Congress, he comes back
00:44:32very radicalized as you said, and at the same time, his company, Swadeshi Steam is inflicting
00:44:39an incredible commercial blow on the commercial interests of British India Steam.
00:44:44You note that in early 1908, not a single Indian merchant shipped his cargo through
00:44:49the British company.
00:44:50They all went through the Swadeshi company instead.
00:44:55And then a third thing happens.
00:44:57You talk about how VOC played a role in organizing a strike at Coral Mills, another large industrial
00:45:05venture owned by European interests, managed by a Scottish firm, and this leaves Europeans
00:45:11so terrified, as you write very eloquently in your book, that they decide to decamp town
00:45:16and just live on boats in the harbor, which must have been such a moment of transformative
00:45:23change of the attitudes of Europeans who had once upon a time been used to commercial and
00:45:29political dominance, unquestioned dominance in the city.
00:45:32And then a reaction kicks off.
00:45:35Can you take us through what that reaction is like?
00:45:37You talk about something called the Tirunelveli riots.
00:45:42And then of course, you mentioned, you alluded to previously, VOC's arrest and imprisonment.
00:45:47Can you take us to what happens after this show of strength on the part of VOC and Swadeshi
00:45:53Steam and how it descends into both violence and repression, and particularly repression
00:45:58against VOC?
00:45:59So I think we should start immediately after his return from Surat.
00:46:04So by the first week of January 1908, he is back from Surat, he is all fired up.
00:46:11So that's when what they do is, on the beachfront of Tuticorin, every day they organize Swadeshi
00:46:21meetings.
00:46:22At that point, he is joined by another nationalist, a mendicant, at that point completely unknown
00:46:31called Subramanya Siva.
00:46:33So on the streets, on the beachfront of Tuticorin, they begin to give public speeches.
00:46:40And even by police reports, as we are all familiar, police reports always tend to underestimate
00:46:47the crowds, the number of people who participate.
00:46:51But even the police reports say that, you know, something like 3,000-4,000 people joined
00:46:59the meetings.
00:47:01And for the first time, extended public meetings, as distinct from hall meetings, where turbaned
00:47:09people spoke in English, here, in the public, with the crowd, cutting across classes, they
00:47:21are addressed in the Tamil language.
00:47:24So this is what the fantastic Chicago anthropologist, historian Bernard Bait, he called it, calls
00:47:33this particular moment, oratorical incandescence, very evocative term.
00:47:38So this captures the mind of the people and it is manifest immediately in terms of how
00:47:49it empowers the common people and they challenge the Europeans on the street.
00:47:57So you have the testimony of some of the Europeans.
00:48:01One trader is saying that, you know, when I used to go on my cycle, if people used to,
00:48:07you know, give me way and, you know, not hinder my path, now when I cycle, little boys are
00:48:14shouting, vande matram, vande matram, jeering at me.
00:48:17And then Jatka drivers, that is the horse cart riders, purposely, you know, they keep
00:48:23cutting in my path and stopping me from going ahead.
00:48:28So on an everyday basis, the quotidian nature of the challenge is very interesting.
00:48:34I have given instance of, you know, the BI company's manager's car driver, who refuses
00:48:43to take his insults anymore.
00:48:45This is what empowers them and every day the mobilization increases and that is at that
00:48:55point Chidambaram Pillai opens another front.
00:48:58There is a big British owned shipping company, British owned spinning mill in Puttapuram
00:49:07with about 2000 workers.
00:49:10And he leads a strike there against Coral Mills.
00:49:16The strike is for very, very genuine grievances and Chidambaram Pillai not only organizes
00:49:25relief for them, he also talks to them every day, politicizes them and then on their behalf,
00:49:33he negotiates with the joint magistrate of Puttapuram.
00:49:40So he is now upping the ante.
00:49:43So one more economic target is being attacked and then he also promises that, you know,
00:49:48he will soon start a cotton mill.
00:49:51So he is talking really, really what from the British point of view is very dangerous
00:49:56stuff.
00:49:57So as this mobilization increases, the district administration under instructions from Madras,
00:50:04governor, governor and council decides, you know, it's high time this man is silenced.
00:50:09It is also at this time that March 9th, Bipin Chandra Pal, who had been arrested in the
00:50:17Bande Mataram case for refusing to testify against Arvind Aghosh is supposed to be released
00:50:24on March 9th.
00:50:25So Chidambaram Pillai decides that this day will be celebrated as Swarajya Day.
00:50:34So he plans massive meetings.
00:50:37So the British, the police, the administration decide that that meeting should not be.
00:50:44So they institute security proceedings and then he is summoned to the district headquarters
00:50:49called Tirunelveli.
00:50:51So here a very interesting exchange takes place between Chidambaram Pillai and the district
00:50:55magistrate.
00:50:56Very, very sharp exchange, which has been immortalized in the poems of Subramanya Bharathi.
00:51:04So as the proceedings go on, we find a very interesting instance of this man's audacity
00:51:13or even foolhardiness, one doesn't know.
00:51:16So he suddenly tells the collector that he wants an adjournment.
00:51:20He says, the collector asks, why do you want an adjournment?
00:51:24He says, I want to go out and address a public meeting to welcome Bipin Chandra Pal.
00:51:32The collector is furious.
00:51:33He said, the purpose of this very proceedings is to stop you from doing that.
00:51:37But he goes out, speaks at the meeting and then actually he does something more provocative.
00:51:47The next day, early morning, he catches an early train, goes to Totikuran, organizes
00:51:55another procession, which had been postponed from the earlier day, then comes back to Tirunelveli
00:52:00and once again presents himself to the collector.
00:52:06You know, really, really infuriating, insolent activity by Chidambaram Pillai from the point
00:52:16of view of the British.
00:52:17Direct provocation.
00:52:18Direct provocation.
00:52:19So that is at that point, once again, the collector makes this man an offer.
00:52:28He tells him that by the time he has received sanction for proceeding against edition against
00:52:36Chidambaram Pillai.
00:52:37So, he tells Chidambaram Pillai that if you promise to leave this area, go off to Bombay
00:52:45or some place for six months or one year, all proceedings against you will be dropped.
00:52:53So, at this point, Chidambaram Pillai poses a counter question.
00:52:59He says, can you promise me that you will not harm this Swadeshi company?
00:53:05Well, the collector, the very idea of sending him away is to crush the company.
00:53:11Obviously, they are not going to let him go.
00:53:13So he is arrested.
00:53:16Immediately after his arrest, this happens on the 12th of March in the afternoon.
00:53:21Next day, there is a huge protest violence, both in Tuticorin and in Tirunelveli, which
00:53:30goes by the name of riots.
00:53:32So there is the irate crowd, the protesting crowd attack all government buildings.
00:53:41They set fire to a kerosene depot, which keeps burning for three days.
00:53:47And then the violence is quelled by shooting.
00:53:53Four people die and very interesting instances happen.
00:53:57The crowd goes into the government offices and pulls down the portraits of King Edward
00:54:03VII.
00:54:05They also turn to the police and say, if you are Swadeshis, you should actually join us.
00:54:14So this kind of activity goes on, but it is quelled.
00:54:18And they are all charged with the arson, rioting, incendiarism and more than a hundred people
00:54:23are convicted.
00:54:25And the social composition of this crowd is so, so wide, it is a very, very democratic
00:54:33uprising.
00:54:34Meanwhile, the sedition case against Chidambaram Pillai is going on and the proceedings are
00:54:41wound up in three and a half months and he is given what is a completely draconian sentence.
00:54:52He gets two life imprisonments, one for delivering seditious speeches and another even more atrocious.
00:55:02He is given another 20 years for abetting the seditious speeches of Subramanya Siva.
00:55:08What is ironic is that Subramanya Siva himself gets only 10 years for giving the seditious
00:55:15speeches.
00:55:16The judge says very clearly, says that even though that man spoke, this is the man who
00:55:22is responsible.
00:55:23But this is truly draconian that it even annoys John Morley, our great Liberal Secretary of
00:55:31State.
00:55:32He says, you know, this is not on.
00:55:35You can't give two life imprisonments to a person who has only one life.
00:55:40And just to put it in context also, I mean, Tilak, when he was tried, I mean, the worst
00:55:46that happened to him was that he was exiled for a few years to Burma.
00:55:50People like Bipin Chandra Pal or Aurobindo likewise, I mean, they were either externed
00:55:54for a little bit or went into self-imposed exile.
00:55:57These are much bigger fish in many ways than VOC and VOC is getting not one but two life
00:56:02terms.
00:56:03See, Tilak himself gets only six years.
00:56:07So this is truly draconian.
00:56:09Then he starts the legal battle.
00:56:16So that is one side.
00:56:17As he is doing the legal battle, the shipping company is rudderless.
00:56:24But luckily, two or three very idealistic people, they take up, they take up the responsibility.
00:56:38But unfortunately, you know, their idealism is not matched by their charisma.
00:56:44Chidambaram Pillai obviously, VOC obviously also had great charisma.
00:56:51So even though these people toiled a lot, but in the wake of Chidambaram Pillai's draconian
00:56:58sentence, which really scared the shit out of people, you know, I mean, this is terrified
00:57:05people.
00:57:06I mean, people are justly not really horrified, but fearful of what would happen.
00:57:12So this is a big blow to the company.
00:57:14So meanwhile, Chidambaram Pillai is in prison.
00:57:17And in the prison, he is made to do the worst kinds of labor.
00:57:24All the harsh punishments prescribed by the jail manual is inflicted on him, including
00:57:32the pulling of the oil mill, the chakki, which is only the bulls do it, right?
00:57:40But luckily, when he goes to the high court, even though the court confirms the conviction,
00:57:47he says he is guilty of sedition, no doubt about it, but it reduces the sentence to six
00:57:56years.
00:57:57So, in prison, Chidambaram Pillai is completely cut off from the outside world.
00:58:04And as you know, this reign of repression, it's an all India phenomenon.
00:58:12Tilak is arrested, the movement in Bengal is crushed, Aurobindo Ghosh…
00:58:191910 is passed.
00:58:21Yes, Aurobindo Ghosh is exiled to Pondicherry.
00:58:29So the movement is basically crushed.
00:58:31By about 1910, the movement is crushed.
00:58:35And because the movement is crushed, idealistic youth take to the path of what is called revolutionary
00:58:44terrorism.
00:58:45In Bengal, numerous cases happen.
00:58:50In Tamil Nadu itself, the case of Ash, who was assassinated for crushing the company.
00:59:00So, when Chidambaram Pillai comes…
00:59:02Robert Ash, just to clarify, is the sub-collector of Tuticorin for a few months, right?
00:59:06So he was involved in a lot of the legal action against the Swadeshi Steam Company.
00:59:11Absolutely.
00:59:12So, by the time Chidambaram Pillai comes out, the world is a different place.
00:59:20It's become completely quiet.
00:59:23And because he has lost his livelihood, as somebody convicted under an IPC section, he
00:59:34could not continue to be the Peter.
00:59:37So the rest of his life, 24 years of his life is mired in great poverty.
00:59:48But he continues to work.
00:59:50He is involved in all the major movements of his times, the labor movement, the social
00:59:56reform movement, the non-rahman movement.
01:00:01He is also a literary scholar of some standing.
01:00:05So though he is active, but nothing that matches the great achievement of the Swadeshi movement.
01:00:15So when he dies in 1936, he has a reputation in Tamil Nadu, even though he is completely
01:00:23unknown to people outside Tamil Nadu, in Tamil Nadu itself he is seen as this selfless man
01:00:31who sacrificed everything and never got his due.
01:00:35So one of the responses that I have got to this book is, I have had people reading this
01:00:41book and, you know, literally bursting into tears.
01:00:49The saga of sacrifice.
01:00:53And that is accentuated by the fact that because this happened at a time, you know, when record
01:01:00keeping was very bad, very little documentation exists.
01:01:07So that makes it even more poignant.
01:01:10In many ways, what you describe towards the end of your book is a tragedy in many acts.
01:01:14I mean, first of all, V.O.C., of course, is arrested and, you know, the rest of his life,
01:01:18as you mentioned, is in poverty, mired in debt, out of joint in some cases with politics
01:01:25once he is released.
01:01:27Swadeshi's team, the company itself goes through tremendous difficulties.
01:01:33So the company itself starts to founder.
01:01:35You talk about how a few directors, people like Pandit Roy Tewar, try and invest nearly
01:01:41all of their money in the company and lose everything.
01:01:46And then you have heroic efforts on the behalf of people like Subramanya Bharati, the poet
01:01:50who tries to raise two lakhs for this company in two months and, of course, does not get
01:01:54anywhere near that amount.
01:01:56But the response from the people is quite touching.
01:01:59I mean, you note how one person might or might not have, I mean, at least Subramanya Bharati
01:02:04writes that this happens when a poor woman is asked for a donation for the Swadeshi's
01:02:09steam company.
01:02:10She gives a few aubergines that she's just purchased from the market and said, you can
01:02:14go have this and use it in whatever way you can to float this company.
01:02:18So even though this company is by and large dead by 1910, it is still evoking a tremendous
01:02:26amount of popular sentiment on behalf of ordinary people.
01:02:29People are donating stuff that they bought at the market to do their little bit to help
01:02:34this effort.
01:02:35Yeah.
01:02:36So that is the, I think that is the, one of the biggest takeaways from the Swadeshi company.
01:02:48The company was a commercial failure, no doubt.
01:02:53But so many companies have failed.
01:02:56This is not the only company that failed, but it failed for a cause.
01:03:02But one could argue that, you know, this big blow retarded the national movement.
01:03:11But that's only an argument because we find that all those who cut their teeth in the
01:03:17Swadeshi movement in Tamil Nadu, go on later to make significant contributions, right?
01:03:26Subramanya Bharati dies in 1921, that is true.
01:03:30But Subramanya Shiva continues to work until 1925.
01:03:35You know, contracting leprosy in the prison does not stop him.
01:03:40He in turn trains a group of volunteers.
01:03:45Then you have Krishnaswami Sarma, who becomes one of the first popularizers of political
01:03:55knowledge.
01:03:57He writes books on various aspects of political science and politics.
01:04:04And then you have a number of, okay, let us say, Thiruvi Kalyanasundaramudaliar, the great
01:04:09journalist, labor leader and writer.
01:04:13When does he get politicized?
01:04:15He says he went to the Madras beach and heard Bipin Chandra Paul speak.
01:04:23So the seeds are sown.
01:04:27So it could be a commercial failure.
01:04:29Yes, it was a commercial failure.
01:04:32But the Swadeshi company is not to be judged by the returns that it gave or the dividend
01:04:42it announced or did not announce.
01:04:46So that...
01:04:47And indeed it was a success for some time.
01:04:50Yes, indeed.
01:04:51It was so successful that it really gave a scare to the British India Company.
01:05:00You know, if it was not scared, why would it have been, you know, go all out to crush
01:05:06this company.
01:05:08So we're coming to the end of this episode and the last question I want to ask is more
01:05:12personal in nature.
01:05:14This is a story that you mention in your book that you've been researching for four decades,
01:05:19something that first interested you as a youth and has matured into, I think, several volumes
01:05:25in Tamil and now this particular volume in English.
01:05:29Can you tell us a little bit about your own interest in VOC and Swadeshi's team and some
01:05:36of the twists and turns that you've had in your research?
01:05:38I mean, obviously, this is an extremely difficult topic to research given, as you mentioned,
01:05:46the lack of documentary evidence.
01:05:48But you've also, as you mentioned, been in touch with, say, the descendants of Robert
01:05:52Ash, that particular ex-sub-collector Tuticorin who was assassinated by revolutionaries in
01:05:591911.
01:06:00And so you've been in touch with his descendants and have talked to him about the family history.
01:06:04I mean, take us a little bit about...
01:06:06Take us a little bit through the research that's gone into this particular book over
01:06:10the past four decades.
01:06:11Okay.
01:06:12Then there is a very long story, so you should stop me when it goes out of hand.
01:06:16Yes.
01:06:17So when I was not yet 14, I was fired by the story of this man and this inspiration came
01:06:28from an absence.
01:06:30I was studying in a CBSE school and in the NCRT textbook, The History of the Freedom
01:06:35Struggle, there is no mention of Chidambaram Pillai.
01:06:39That really, really infuriated me.
01:06:41So I started reading up on this man and I found that the work on him was very, very
01:06:48minimal.
01:06:49So by the time I was into reading and reading a lot, I loved biographies.
01:06:56As a puny boy with a snotty nose, I was really inspired by, you know, big figures.
01:07:02So if I couldn't become a big figure, at least I could read about them and get inspired by
01:07:07them.
01:07:08So this man captured my attention and he said, we have to write good biographies.
01:07:13You have to write a great biography of this man, like the ones that we see in the West
01:07:17about, you know, all the big names.
01:07:19So I started looking up the material step by step.
01:07:22By 1982, when I was 15, I had a chance to see the unpublished letters of Chidambaram
01:07:30Pillai.
01:07:32Then on a lead, I found out that there would be records of this man in the Tamil Nadu archives.
01:07:39So I went to the Tamil Nadu archives.
01:07:41They sent me away.
01:07:42They said that no school boys can come into the archives.
01:07:46So you should go off.
01:07:47So as soon as I joined college and I was 17, the very first week I went to the Tamil Nadu
01:07:54archives, got permission and then started looking up the records.
01:08:00That's when, you know, I decided that I enjoyed archival research so much that I decided I
01:08:08would become a historian.
01:08:11So I would not become a bank clerk or a bank officer or a chartered accountant.
01:08:17So I decided to.
01:08:18So from the Tamil Nadu archives and going into various other books and libraries, going
01:08:24on fieldwork to Thoothukudi, then I was told that there are material in the Nehru Memorial
01:08:31Museum and Library, Teen Murthy and National Archives.
01:08:35So when I was 18, I went off to Delhi.
01:08:43So I spent three weeks.
01:08:46That opened me up to further riches.
01:08:49So I decided I have to do more research.
01:08:52So I went back in 1988 again.
01:08:55So all through I went after Chidambaram Pillai and not just Chidambaram Pillai, I realized
01:09:00that if you are to understand a man, a political leader, you have to understand his times.
01:09:07So that is how I branched out.
01:09:10I read up a lot about the various movements, the political processes and movements, not
01:09:18only in Tamil Nadu, but also in India and across the world.
01:09:23Then from the National Archives and the other research, I said I have to go to London to
01:09:29look at the British.
01:09:30I said I had to look up the London, the Lloyd's Register of Shipping.
01:09:36So I went to the Maritime Museum, I went to the Guildhall Library.
01:09:40So my entire career has been shaped, my career as a student of history has been shaped by
01:09:47my search for Chidambaram Pillai and I have learnt.
01:09:54What was the reaction of Robert Ash's descendants to being contacted by you?
01:10:00So there are also some epiphanic moments.
01:10:03So sadly or even tragically, Indians, we do not maintain our records.
01:10:16We are terrible at it.
01:10:17You know it better than anyone else.
01:10:19I think any historian knows that the state of archives continue to be terrible in this
01:10:23country.
01:10:24And whatever records have survived, we have made a mess of preserving them.
01:10:31So one of the most, there are happy moments, but some of the tragic moments in my search
01:10:38was that, you know, material that I saw in the 1980s don't exist anymore.
01:10:46A common feature in Indian archives.
01:10:48So this is, so in the 1980s and 1990s, there was, you know, photocopying was limited, photocopying
01:10:58damaged papers, it was expensive, we didn't do it.
01:11:02So much of those papers are lost.
01:11:06What is left are only notes that I have scribbled.
01:11:09Some of this scrawl, I can't decipher myself now.
01:11:14So that has been one thing.
01:11:15So, but in the case of Ash, I was sure that, you know, the British ruled the world because
01:11:23they also controlled knowledge, they maintained their papers, I'm sure that there would be
01:11:27something.
01:11:28So following a lead, an obscure lead, which I have written about in my paper on Ash in
01:11:37Search of Ash in Economic and Political Weekly, I traced his daughter-in-law and grandson
01:11:43to Ireland, to a small town near Dublin.
01:11:48So I went in 2006.
01:11:50So it was a very difficult moment because this is a man who is the grandson of an assassinated
01:11:57officer.
01:12:00So I am going to research the man who killed him and was responsible for his grandfather's
01:12:06death.
01:12:07So I went there.
01:12:08It was a very pleasant surprise because Robert Ash's grandson is also Robert, Robert Ash.
01:12:17He is a gentleman, he is a liberal, who is very widely read.
01:12:27He was very warm.
01:12:28After the initial moments of hesitation, we have become friends, we are in touch with
01:12:33each other over the last 18 years.
01:12:36He bears no ill will to anybody.
01:12:39If at all he bears any ill will, it is towards Lord Louis Mountbatten because he says that
01:12:48his father, Arthur Ash, worked in the Indian army and he was in India during independence,
01:12:58what they call the transfer of power.
01:13:01Robert tells me that his father blamed and held Louis Mountbatten solely responsible
01:13:10for the violence of partition.
01:13:12He said it could have been easily averted.
01:13:16That is another story.
01:13:17But he kept all the papers.
01:13:21For nearly 100 years, they maintained the papers, it is a huge archive.
01:13:26Most of it is of a personal nature, but there is also some stuff.
01:13:31He was generous in sharing all the material.
01:13:34And in fact, at the time of the assassination of Ash, of his grandfather, he sent out a
01:13:40message of reconciliation to the family of the assassin, our patriot, Vanshi Iyer.
01:13:49He said, you know, our forefathers made some mistakes, you know, we should overcome, you
01:13:58know, they were, we are not responsible for that.
01:14:03We should forget the past and try to look into the future.
01:14:06So that was a very interesting experience.
01:14:10So he has read the book and Robert Ash said, you know, he and his family are, you know,
01:14:20well, one is, one cannot happy, is not happy to know about the death of their grandfather,
01:14:29but he said, gives him and his family an understanding of the circumstances that led to the loss
01:14:36of his forefathers.
01:14:37So this is one story.
01:14:39So there are numerous anecdotes.
01:14:41It is a mixture, it is bittersweet, but I want to recall the generosity of people across
01:14:51India, across the world, where they supported the work of an unknown young man coming from
01:14:59a corner of India.
01:15:01They have been generous, the people have given me a roof to stay, they have fed me, they
01:15:07have parted with their papers, parted with their knowledge.
01:15:12So I'm so grateful to all of them.
01:15:16And I realized that, you know, it is that generosity, though I am the recipient of it,
01:15:23it is actually a tribute to the selfless sacrifice and the foresightedness of Chidambaram Pillai,
01:15:32who wanted to build an equal, egalitarian, peaceful and just India.
01:15:42Wonderful.
01:15:44Thank you, Chalapati, for joining us today.
01:15:46And, you know, as you mentioned, your book covers many different strands of the story
01:15:51of Indian nationalism and Swadeshi, in the sense that, you know, this is a story not
01:15:55just about the political movement, or even, you know, a challenge to economic dominance,
01:16:01but in many ways also a story of, you know, a major chapter in Indian business development.
01:16:07And you know, I encourage all listeners to pick up the book and understand a little bit
01:16:11about how, you know, a major Indian venture came really from nothing in, you know, a relatively
01:16:18obscure South Indian port town, had tremendous success for a number of months, if not, you
01:16:25know, years before it was crushed by political circumstances.
01:16:29So thank you again, Chalapati, for joining me today.