'Breath of dragon on their neck': China domineering neighbors, 'enabling Russian illegal aggression'
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00:00Welcome to the programme. A NATO summit in Washington is taking place this week, and
00:09the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is there, even though Ukraine is not a member
00:14of the alliance. Now, NATO has this week pledged more air defences for Ukraine, and US-made
00:21F-16s are on their way to the country as well. But Zelensky is calling on NATO allies to
00:28go further, pushing for firm assurances that one day his country will join the NATO alliance.
00:36Well, I'm very pleased to welcome now live to the programme the Foreign Minister of Sweden,
00:43Tobias Bellström, who's at the summit. Hello to you. Thanks very much for finding the time
00:48to talk to us today. Thank you very much. Now, Sweden joined NATO in March of this year.
00:56That was after decades of neutrality. So just explain to us, first of all, why Sweden
01:02joined now? Sweden joined because of Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, and that led
01:12both Sweden and Finland to reach the decision that it was only by joining NATO and being
01:18given the protection under Article 5, one for all, all for the many, that we will be
01:24able to protect our populations. It's also clear that Russia just before the war in December
01:29sent a letter to the world by Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov saying that Sweden and Finland
01:34would never be allowed to join NATO. So we already knew where Russia was on this particular
01:39issue. But as you can all see, this was a major defeat already for Russia that Sweden
01:43and Finland has joined, and that Sweden has given up a history of 200 years of being a
01:50non-military-aligned nation. And this is as a consequence of this war and the ruthlessness
01:55which Russia pursues this war against Ukraine and its population. And as you've spelt out,
02:00you joined NATO in the wake of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Presumably then you do
02:06understand why it is so important for Ukraine itself to join the alliance. How close is
02:14Ukraine to being admitted into the NATO fold? Indeed, it is very important, of course, for
02:22Ukraine to be allowed to walk the path towards becoming a full member of NATO and also of
02:27the EU, because these two processes are slightly interconnected, because what Ukraine now performs
02:32in reforms of its constitution, its laws against corruption, etc., will also, of course, play
02:39into the thing about becoming a NATO member. And we see progress even under these very
02:45difficult circumstances with the war ongoing against Ukraine because of Russia's illegal
02:51aggression. We can see that Ukraine performs. I'm not going to set a specific date, but
02:55I would like to point to the fact that the summit here in Washington is now following
02:59up on last year's summit in Vilnius in Lithuania, and the word irrevocable, the irrevocable
03:05path for Ukraine towards NATO membership is now in the conclusions of the summit, and
03:10this is something which Sweden is very, very much in favour of.
03:15This is Robert Parsons, chief foreign editor at France 24. Given what you've just said
03:23and the pressure on Ukraine coming from Russia, what more precisely can be done at the moment
03:29to help the Ukrainians achieve the goal, ultimately, of victory against Russia?
03:36Well, one very important thing also coming out of the summit here in D.C. of NATO is
03:44the decision to see to it that NATO will now take over the coordination of the support
03:49for Ukraine from the U.S. and other member states. It will be a coordinating organization.
03:54And this is very beneficial for the long-term support by NATO allies towards Ukraine. Let's
04:00not forget that 99% of all military support to Ukraine has come from NATO and NATO allies.
04:07With this coordination mechanism, it will be possible to increase the production of
04:10defence material given to Ukraine, and this is something which Europe has to do, because
04:15Europe has to understand that we have also a greater responsibility than other states
04:20to see to it that Ukraine receives defence material, not only to defend itself, but also
04:25to retake the offensive and ultimately win decisive military victories in the battlefield,
04:32which is the only thing which is going to make Russia alter its course and its goals.
04:38The reestablishment of the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine is paramount, and
04:43this is ultimately what this war is all about.
04:46You say that, but there do seem to be divisions within NATO about how to achieve victory and
04:52what victory actually means, ultimately. Today, we had a response from Moscow to the
04:57NATO summit, Dmitry Peskov, the press secretary of Vladimir Putin, saying that there would
05:03have to be a strong response to what NATO had done and said over the last three days.
05:09Is there a real danger, do you think, that this war in Ukraine could tip over into a
05:14wider conflict between Russia and NATO? And what needs to be done? How should NATO act
05:21given that that possibility exists in the background?
05:24Well, first of all, we have seen a lot of sabre rattling from Russia over the years
05:32since Russia launched its full-scale invasion against Ukraine, and even prior to that. So
05:39I don't think that we should take those threats very seriously. The ultimate thing to understand
05:43is that Russia only believes in one thing, and that is power, and military power above
05:48all else. Helping Ukraine to regain the initiative by helping out militarily, humanitarian, financial
05:56and political is Sweden's first and foremost political priority. There is nothing more
06:01important for us in foreign policy than aiding Ukraine. We are going to act along those lines
06:05also as a NATO ally and as a member of the EU, because the security concerns us greatly
06:11in all these organisations, what's going on, the outcome of Russia's illegal aggression
06:16against Ukraine. And helping Ukraine, as I said, is a long-term commitment. It has
06:20to go on regardless of elections in the US and regardless of how we view Russia's machinations
06:26with China, Iran and North Korea, who are ganging up as authoritarian states. And China
06:32wishes of course to see Russia winning Ukraine, because that will mean that the whistle blows
06:38for its ambitions in the Indo-Pacific. So the security of the Euro-Atlantic and the
06:43Indo-Pacific is now closely interconnected. I would say that they are almost two sides
06:47of the same coin. And we have to realise this and we have also to understand that if we
06:51want the US to remain committed to what's going on in Europe and the war in Ukraine,
06:56we, NATO allies and the EU, have to show interest and commitment to what's going on in the Indo-Pacific.
07:02That doesn't mean military support, it's a question about political support and the understanding
07:07that the four IP nations, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand, who are represented
07:12here at the summit here in Washington with NATO as partners, that they have great concerns
07:18over the assertiveness of China. And we have to weigh this in in our strategies.
07:23I want to come back to China in a moment, sir, but first you mentioned elections and
07:28I just want to get clarity from you on whether you and your European NATO colleagues are
07:35concerned that Donald Trump might win the election in the United States in November
07:40and what kind of impact his presence may have on the bloc.
07:47I think we first of all have to snap out of a misunderstanding, all of us, namely that
07:53the discussion of US engagement in NATO and support is only about Donald Trump.
07:59What he is saying...
08:07Unfortunately it seems to me we have lost our...
08:13Can you hear us there, Foreign Minister? We had some sound issues on our line but I gather you
08:17have reconnected. Do you hear me well?
08:21I hear you very well.
08:23All right. Well, go ahead, sir. Answer my question then about Donald Trump,
08:28what impact his possible win in the United States may have on NATO.
08:34Yeah, well, the important thing to understand is that the United States has had over several
08:39years and decades throughout many presidents legitimate concerns over the fact that European
08:46allies have not spent enough on defence. There is a lot of talk, for example, about the 2%
08:52target. Sweden is reaching the 2% target already this year and we will remain above the 2% target
08:58and we encourage others to do the same. And we consider it as a flaw and not a ceiling.
09:03And I think that this has to be weighed in when we talk about the outcome of a US election.
09:07We shouldn't have free riding in NATO. Everybody has to live up to their commitments. And this is
09:13a clear signal we wish to send also to the American people. We understand that you cannot
09:17carry the burden of defending Europe alone. We all have to do our part of the work and those
09:22NATO allies who have not yet reached the 2% goal should speed up and do so.
09:28All right. A final question for you then. You mentioned China as well a bit earlier on.
09:32NATO has issued a really rather strong statement on China this week at the summit calling Beijing
09:39a decisive enabler of Russia's war in Ukraine. You personally have called on NATO to step
09:48up efforts on China. Just spell out for us why and your response then to
09:52the backlash that we can see that this is already generating in Beijing.
09:59Well, first of all, we fully back this statement because it is quite clear that China, together
10:04with countries like Iran and North Korea, are enablers of Russia's illegal aggression against
10:09Ukraine. They are supporting Russia by military means and also by political and financial means.
10:15This we have to take into account when we speak about China. There is also China's assertiveness
10:20against other states in its neighbourhood. I'm not only talking about the IP4, Japan,
10:25South Korea, Australia and New Zealand, but also other states like the Philippines,
10:29like Vietnam and of course also Taiwan, who feel the breath of a dragon down their neck.
10:36We have to take this into account and understand that the Euro-Atlantic security and the
10:40Indo-Pacific security are something which would be a concern to all of us. We should stand up
10:46for values and for rights regardless of geographies and NATO membership, as Sweden now has,
10:52is also a commitment to a certain row of values. So sending a clear signal to China that we see
10:59what you do, we see that you support Russia and this is something which we will weigh in
11:04when we deal with you. This is very important and it is an important outcome of the summit
11:09here in DC that this signal, this clear message is being sent to Beijing.
11:14Great to talk to you, sir. Thank you very much indeed for your time. That's
11:17Sweden's Foreign Minister Tobias Bellström speaking to me and Rob Parsons here on the programme.