'Genocide of our people': Ukraine's former president Poroshenko speaks to France 24
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00:00Well, I'm very pleased to welcome now live to the program Petro Poroshenko. He was the
00:05president of Ukraine between 2014 and 2019. Good afternoon to you, sir. Thanks very much
00:10for joining us today.
00:11Good afternoon. Thank you for the invitation.
00:15Can I just ask you, first of all, where it is you are? I understand you're in the Ukrainian
00:19capital Kyiv, but what are we looking at just behind you?
00:22Let's return back from the site of the Akhmadiyev hospital, where we are really cooperating
00:31in restoring it, but it is a disastrous picture. For us, you should understand, the Akhmadiyev
00:40hospital was a symbol. We worked very hard to build up the biggest children's hospital
00:47in Ukraine. And only my team invested their own money to build up the oxygen station,
00:56investing in the electric networks. And for us, it was a part of our heart. And I just
01:02wanted to make more accurate your figures, because during yesterday's attack, it is already
01:07confirmed, killed people for 42, including four children. And there is no simple explanation
01:17why Russia attacked with a ballistic missile the children's hospital. And another hospital,
01:27they have a prenatal and natal hospital, they attacked and killed seven people. And again,
01:36we think that if Putin wants to demonstrate to President Xi, to Prime Minister Orban,
01:44to Prime Minister Modi, what does it mean, a red line for Putin? What does it mean, preparation
01:52for the ceasefire? Yesterday, it was the best demonstration from the barbarian Putin. What
01:59does it mean, genocide of Ukrainian people? And yesterday, I see with my own eyes, the
02:06Russian missiles, the work of Ukrainian air defence. And unfortunately, we need definitely
02:13more weapons, more air defence. We need the Israeli mode for closing the Ukrainian sky.
02:21And that should be no words, but deeds, but action from the part of our partners.
02:29Well, that was what I was going to ask you, sir, if I may, because of course, Vladimir
02:34Zelensky will be heading to the NATO summit today. And we imagine he's going to push for
02:41more air defences for your country. You and the President have been long time rivals.
02:47But this is an issue, is it? Air defences, where actually the two of you really see eye
02:51to eye. We need three things from the summit, what
02:56we expect. First of all, this summit is about the NATO global leadership, US global leadership,
03:06and stop Putin aggression in the world to protect freedom and democracy. This is definitely
03:14not only about Ukraine. And this is the challenge and the test for NATO, if NATO can be adequate
03:23to today's modern danger. And with this situation, what we Ukrainians expect from them? Again,
03:33weapons. Not only money, but weapons. We have a lack of weapons for our troops on the front
03:40line. Weapons, when I talk about that, this is the F-16 jet fighter. Without F-16 jet
03:47fighter, we simply cannot return, control the air dominance on Ukrainian sky. Because
03:53most of the Russian missiles was launched from the Russian strategic bomber, from the
03:59Russian air force. And that's why for us, it is extremely important. We definitely need
04:05Mirage, what President Macron promised to us. And we think that this is also extremely
04:11efficient things to protect freedom and democracy and sustainable security situation of the
04:17country. Point number two, air defense. Putin just demonstrate what results can be if we
04:26do not have enough air defense to protect civilian object, to protect energy infrastructure,
04:34to keep running Ukrainian states. And point number three, last but definitely not least,
04:42this is the invitation for Ukraine in NATO. Without that, it would be no peace. Without
04:50that, it would be no security on the continent. Without that, it would be impossible to stop
04:57the Putin. And let's stop talking about that Ukraine is already on the Washington summit
05:05would be breached from Ukraine to NATO. No, we have this breach since 2008, since Bucharest
05:13NATO summit. Ukraine is standing for 10 years since my presidency, standing in front of
05:21the door, knocking the door. Mr. Poroshenko, we don't have a lot of time. So if I may interrupt
05:28you at this point, this is Robert Parsons, chief foreign editor of France 24. I listened
05:33to those points you made very interesting about weapons, air defense, invitation to
05:37NATO. And so I wonder whether perhaps an even more important issue, perhaps a fourth point
05:42which you might mention is getting an overarching strategy from NATO for victory, which would
05:49allow Ukraine to strike into Russian territory, to hit Russian military targets across the
05:55line of the conflict, without which it seems it's almost impossible for Ukraine to make
06:02the sort of progress that is necessary for it to come out of this long conflict the victor.
06:08You are absolutely right. Peace is possible with Russia only through the victory. And
06:14we should define what is the victory for Ukraine, for Europe, for NATO, for the world.
06:21And could you explain to me if we do not have an ability to attack Russia with a long range
06:27missile when we know exactly that this is a legitimate target. And when Russia concentrates
06:34the troops, concentrates the missiles, attacking our civilian object, crossing all the red
06:41lines, and in response or just to stop this position, Ukraine has no ability to attack
06:49legitimate targets, this would be never ending war. And if we want to stop the war, if we
06:56want to peace through the victory, definitely we should take out all the limits on the Ukrainian
07:03missiles weapons. We should definitely use the Israeli mode for protecting the sky. And
07:10with that situation to hit Russian missiles over Ukrainian territory by NATO members.
07:16There is an argument though, isn't there, Mr Poroshenko, that actually the only way
07:21to secure a tangible peace in Ukraine is for some kind of deal with Russia. What do you
07:29think about that? You may not win this on the battlefield. It has to be negotiated.
07:33What do you make of that argument?
07:36To negotiate with Russia. Is this the right time?
07:40It is the right time. And this is a good idea because we have a best negotiator with Russia,
07:48the best diplomat in the world. And the name of this diplomat for negotiation with Russia
07:55is Armed Forces of Ukraine equipped with Western weapons. Why? Because Putin understands only
08:03one language. I have a five years experience of negotiation with Putin and Putin understands
08:09only language of strength. And my request, please stop. Don't trust Putin and don't be
08:18afraid of Putin. And this is the fight for our existence. This is the fight for our independence.
08:26Not only Ukraine, France, German, British and Ukrainian now, Ukrainian armed forces
08:33are ready for this negotiation. Please give us an instance and we will bring the peace
08:39on the continent.
08:42Will concessions, though, have to be made to Russia? I'm thinking, you know, most obviously
08:47of Crimea, but also the Donbass. To get the deal that would bring this war to an end,
08:54does Ukraine have to accept that territorial concessions will have to be made?
09:01Please. My answer would be, what would be the reaction of France if Russia proposed
09:08in exchange for peace to take Corsica? I think you can easily give an answer. And is it possible
09:17that tomorrow Russian troops can appear near Corsica? Definitely, yes. And with this situation,
09:24my idea is the following. We never accept anything with the attack on our territorial
09:33integrity and independence. But most important thing is NATO membership, because only membership
09:41in NATO, only Article 5 of the Washington Treaty can stop the Putin attack now, within
09:49one year, within five years, within 10 years. Only this can bring the sustainable security
09:55situation on the continent. And this is, we are talking not about the territory. We're
10:00talking about the existence of Ukraine. We're talking about the existence of NATO. We're
10:04talking about the existence of the continent. And with this situation, I really appreciate
10:10the position of France, which they very clearly messaged by the President Macron that this
10:17is our war. And we should understand that we should act efficiently and actively.
10:24You mentioned France there, Mr. Poroshenko, but you must worry about the international
10:30situation surrounding Ukraine, the fact that there are elections coming up in November
10:36in the United States. A NATO diplomat referred to the big orange elephant in the room today,
10:42meaning Donald Trump. That must cause you a lot of concern that his position on the
10:48war in Ukraine perhaps won't be as supportive as that as Joe Biden's.
10:53Look, first of all, you are absolutely right. But this is the price we should pay for democracy,
11:02election. And please do not attack us with the danger of Trump. Do not demonize Trump,
11:11because I have an experience of work together with Trump as a United States president for
11:17three years, since year 2016 to year 2019. And I just want to remind you that the first
11:24lethal weapons Ukraine received, President Poroshenko received, that was from the President
11:29Trump. And with that situation, this is depend because United States is a democratic nation.
11:37This is dependent on the American people significantly more than the position of any
11:42person, even such a person like the United States president. And I really enjoy that
11:48we enjoyed their bipartisan support of Ukraine in American people. And the same situation
11:58was when we have a result of the parliamentary election in France. Pro-Putin political force
12:08was defeated. And that's why I trust the European values. I trust the European force. And I
12:16think Europe should be significantly more stronger.
12:20Mr. Poroshenko, one last question, if I may. Just one last question. Up until now, the
12:29political unity around Volodymyr Zelensky's government has been pretty solid in Ukraine.
12:34But there have been demands for elections, including from yourself. Do you think this
12:39is the moment for Ukraine to hold elections, despite the fact that there's a war going
12:43on?
12:44Look, we don't have this problem inside of Ukraine. And me as a leader of the opposition
12:51said, please, no question about the legitimacy of our president, our parliament, and our
12:58government. No. It's impossible to provide democratic election until the war is going
13:06on. But at the same time, we should act efficiently to stop the war, to finish the war by Ukrainian
13:14victory. And another question about the unity. Unity is a key factor for our victory. But
13:20unity, we should learn very attentively, Israeli experience, when from the very beginning
13:28it was created the government of national unity in Israel. And definitely this is what
13:36Ukraine now needs. We have a government of national unity, parliament of national unity,
13:43and president who will effectively cooperate both with this government of unity and parliament
13:50of national unity. And we definitely will have an election immediately when the war
13:55will be finished and when Ukraine will win.
13:58Petro Poroshenko, there's lots more we'd like to ask you, but unfortunately we are out of
14:02time. It's been a pleasure to speak to you today, sir. Thanks very much.
14:05Thank you.