Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Maruti Suzuki records highest ever sales and exports in the first quarter of a year, new
00:06Swift sells over 35,000 units in less than a month.
00:19Three new laws come into effect.
00:23Today they replaced the Indian Penal Code, the Code of Criminal Procedure and Evidence
00:27Act.
00:28But as justice replaces punishment in them, opposition says they were passed forcibly
00:32by suspending 146 members of the parliament.
00:38Karnataka releases a draft bill to protect the rights of gig workers, proposes a fee
00:43to be charged to platforms for each transaction towards gig worker welfare.
00:51Ola Electric plans its IPO of Rs. 7,250 crore.
00:55The company also aims to invest $100 million in Ola Gigafactory to start feeding its future
01:02factory by early 2025.
01:10France's far-right leader Marine Lefebvre wins the first round of snap elections.
01:15President Emmanuel Macron's centrist alliance comes in third place.
01:23The Prabhas Deepika Padukone starrer Kalki 2898 AD crosses the Rs. 550 crore in collections
01:31worldwide and this is just day four of the film's release.
01:45Good evening and welcome.
01:46You are watching The Big Story on NDTV Profit and I am your host Nupur Talwar Suri.
01:50Now on the show we will be discussing the new criminal laws that have come into effect
01:54from today.
01:55The Bharatiya Nyaya Sanhita will replace the Indian Penal Court.
01:59The Bharatiya Nagarik Suraksha Sanhita will replace the Criminal Procedure Court and the
02:04Bharatiya Sakshya Adhinaayam will replace the Indian Evidence Act of 1872.
02:11What's new about them?
02:12Well, the new laws aim to simplify the legal procedures such as filing of FIRs and online
02:17registration of police complaints.
02:19There is also provision to speed up justice delivery.
02:22Strict deadlines have been written in for trial courts to deliver judgments within 45
02:26days.
02:27The Home Minister Amit Shah has addressed a press conference where he emphasized on
02:31how justice will replace punishment.
02:34Listen in to what he said.
02:36When these laws will start working in every police station, the laws made by the British
02:48will be abolished and the laws made by the Indian Parliament will come into effect.
02:54Justice will replace punishment.
02:59Instead of delay, we will get speedy trial and speedy justice.
03:04Earlier, only the rights of the police were protected.
03:09Now, the rights of the victims will be protected and the rights of the complainants will also
03:15be protected.
03:19Well, our first guest is Senior Supreme Court Advocate and former Union Minister of Law
03:24and Justice, Ashwini Kumar.
03:26Good evening, Mr. Kumar.
03:27Welcome to our big story, our special show on this.
03:30Mr. Kumar, to begin with, now this is a move that, you know, intends to completely overhaul
03:36the justice system.
03:38How do you see this impacting the legal system and also justice delivery?
03:43Do you see it as a landmark change?
03:48Well, you know, there's a lot of controversy about the replacement of the old architecture
03:53of the criminal justice system with the new laws.
03:56And the principal controversy centers around the fact that, in substance, nothing new has
04:02happened in the sense that the anti-civil libertarian provisions of the old laws have
04:08become worse.
04:10The pre-trial custodial investigations could be, the time for that could be increased from
04:1815 days to 60 days and 90 days.
04:21The sedition laws are back again in another form.
04:25The much needed anti-custodial torture legislation has not been enacted or made part of the comprehensive
04:31legal reform scheme by the government.
04:34To the extent that technology is being used to speed up justice, this is welcome.
04:41To the extent that the criminal justice system will now, as claimed by the Honorable Home
04:47Minister, be centered around the victim and the complainant and not be focusing on the
04:55penal effects of the crime, that is a welcome development.
05:02But many academics, many jurists, many lawyers, and many ex-judges have expressed grave doubts
05:10about whether all of this is going to happen.
05:13Now, just to give you an example, there are about 650 district courts and there are about
05:2016,000-odd police stations across the country.
05:25Whether the personnel in uniform who are in charge of the enforcement of criminal laws
05:32have been fully trained and made to be aware of the intricacies of the technology and of the aims
05:43of the new law is doubtful.
05:46I have received reports suggesting that hardly any in-depth training of the new legal architecture
05:54has been extended to those who are supposed to be enforcing it.
05:59But there are some issues, and the opposition has rightly said that before these laws were passed,
06:05there was no meaningful, in-depth, comprehensive deliberation on the architecture of the new laws.
06:11Please remember that 146 MPs were suspended from the House, neither in the concerned
06:18Parliamentary Committee nor in the House.
06:21We are told that extensive deliberations have taken place.
06:25The criminal laws affect every single citizen of this country.
06:30I think it is a legitimate demand of the opposition and of the other stakeholders that these laws,
06:36which have since been passed by Parliament, should be revisited, not only for the purpose of
06:42criticising them, but for the purpose of making them more effective and more justice-friendly.
06:47This is the crux of the matter.
06:49I think a responsive democratic government should concede this legitimate demand of the opposition.
06:57Mr. Kumar, do stay with us.
06:59As you were pointing out, the opposition has hit out, saying that they weren't consulted
07:03and enough consultations were not held on this.
07:06But the Home Minister has hit right back at the opposition, negating the claims that the bills
07:10were brought after the mass suspension of MPs.
07:13He said that maybe the opposition did not want to participate. Listen in.
07:26I want to tell you all that a total of 9 hours and 29 minutes were discussed in the Lok Sabha.
07:3634 members participated in it.
07:416 hours and 70 minutes were discussed in the Rajya Sabha.
07:4540 members participated.
07:48They are also lying that the bills were brought after the mass suspension of MPs.
07:54The bill was already decided in the Business Advisory Committee.
07:59I firmly believe that the opposition has been harassing the MPs since the 14th.
08:06Maybe they didn't want to participate.
08:10Mr. Kumar, that was the Home Minister. Would you like to respond to that?
08:14The other point that I wanted to bring up with you was that one of the significant changes
08:19is the extension of police custody duration from the previous 15 days under the CRPC
08:24up to 90 days under the BNSS.
08:27Now, while obviously the government argues that this will expedite trial,
08:31there has been a fair amount of criticism saying that this could potentially be misused.
08:36How do you see it?
08:38I'm absolutely certain it will be misused.
08:41The need of the hour is to make laws benign, not to make them more draconian.
08:47Where is the need for endless custodial interrogation of people?
08:51And we know that in the absence of an anti-custodial torture legislation in the country,
08:56about which internationally the government of India has been censored for not bringing in such a legislation,
09:03the possibilities of police torture in custody will only increase.
09:07In fact, this was the time to drastically curtail the period of custodial investigation.
09:16No civilized country in the world has that kind of extended custodial arrests
09:27for the purposes of pretrial investigation.
09:30It is an absolutely draconian provision.
09:32And I tend to agree with the rule that this is a backward step,
09:36not a forward step in the re-humanizing of our criminal justice system.
09:41We all know that as far as the implementation of the criminal laws is concerned,
09:46it is left to people who are largely untrained, quite, I should say,
09:53ruthless in the manner in which they investigate people,
09:57regardless of the human rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
10:01In such a scenario, there was need to have inbuilt checks and balances
10:06against the excesses of the investigative agencies of people in custody.
10:14I would also like to say that as far as the claim of deliberation and discussion of the laws is concerned,
10:20it is not the number of hours that are technically taken up for discussing.
10:25It is how deeply and how thoughtfully the laws have been discussed
10:30in the kind of pandemonium that prevailed at that time when 146 MPs were expelled.
10:37Nobody can reasonably expect thoughtful, deliberative exercise on criminal laws,
10:43which are so, so very important for the individual liberties of citizens.
10:49We cannot now convert ourselves into an anti-civil libertarian state
10:56in the garb of replacing old colonial laws with the new laws.
10:59The new laws have to be better in terms of the constitutional jurisprudence of human rights,
11:04in terms of their ability to advance the constitutional objective
11:10of securing the fundamental human rights and liberty of Indian citizens.
11:14All right. Now, the other part of it, Mr. Kumar, is that the government says
11:20that this is going to speed up the justice delivery system
11:24because the new laws now require that judgments have to be delivered within 45 days
11:31and trial and charges have to be framed within 60 days of the first hearing.
11:38How do you read this? Because there is some amount of apprehension.
11:44You know, there's a trite saying in law that justice delayed is justice denied.
11:51But it is equally true that justice hurried is justice buried.
11:56Now, if you want to stick to the timelines described by the statute,
12:00please understand the number of cases that are to be tried.
12:05Do we have that many courts that would be able to try within the time stipulated
12:11the cases before it? Do we have that many judges?
12:14Do we have that kind of technological dissemination across the judicial system
12:20which will enable technology to render speedy justice?
12:23And if indeed speedy justice and effective justice and real justice can be achieved,
12:29nothing like it. I would be the first person to support it.
12:32And I think to the extent that government has introduced the e-filing system
12:38and the use of video recording for recording the item seized
12:43and also recording the investigation, that is a good step forward.
12:48But what is the extent to which these technological initiatives
12:55will secure the fundamentals of criminal justice is to be seen.
13:02Mr. Kumar, thank you very much for joining us on the broadcast
13:05and sharing your views on the new laws that have been put in place by the government.
13:09Thank you very much.
13:11Well, now talking about the law implementation of the three new laws,
13:14the Home Minister Amit Shah said that it will not take more than three years
13:17to get justice from the Supreme Court. Listen.
13:22After the complete implementation of this law,
13:26some technical preparations have to be made.
13:29After these technical preparations, after the police station and the court are notified,
13:34any person seeking justice will get justice from the date of FIR
13:40to the Supreme Court within three years.
13:44I have faith in this.
13:46And we have taken such precautions in the laws.
13:51Speedy justice delivery, that is what is the crux of these new laws.
13:58Joining us are Senior Advocate at the Supreme Court and former Additional Solicitor General Siddharth Luthra
14:03and Senior Lawyer at the Bombay High Court and the Supreme Court Swapnil Kothari.
14:06Swapnil and Siddharth, thank you very much, both of you, for joining us.
14:10If I could come to you first, Mr. Luthra.
14:13These are new criminal laws that essentially bring in a host of changes
14:18to the colonial era justice system framework.
14:22Broadly, how do you see them?
14:25So I would say, first correction, it is some changes,
14:29but I would say about 80% of the law remains the same.
14:33It's really restructuring, renumbering, reorganization.
14:37And therefore, what's important for us as students of the law,
14:41a substantial portion of the jurisprudence, the judgments of the past will continue to apply.
14:47There's going to be no revolutionary change in that sense.
14:50The change comes in in the detail because let's look at the three legislations.
14:55Legislation one, you have the Penal Code.
14:59The new avatar is BNS.
15:01Don't forget the BNS and the Penal Code are laws in 33 countries other than India even today.
15:08Having said that, this legislation brings in now organized crime.
15:14It brings in terrorism.
15:16It takes out sedition but brings in secession, which is really effectively Section 13 of the UNPA.
15:22It also brings in mob lynching, chain snatching.
15:26Most important, it brings in community service.
15:30Doesn't broad basis as much as I would have liked, but it brings in community service.
15:35So that's the one part.
15:36It rationalizes punishment fines.
15:39In some cases, there's an enhancement of punishment.
15:42It tries to get over some old judgments of the Supreme Court, which has struck down certain provisions.
15:47So that's the broad structure of the law.
15:50The attempt is to bring in coherence and a few provisions.
15:53Now, the catch is going to be in the detail, which is to say what is going to be applied
15:59if you apply the definition of terrorism here or you apply the definition of organized crime here
16:07or you apply the definition of what is now secession here.
16:10What about the special laws, the UAPA and the NIA Act and the Maharashtra Control of Organized Crime Act,
16:17which has special restrictions and special procedures, reverse burdens.
16:22Thank God the reverse burdens are not here.
16:24Thank God the restricting conditions of bail are not here.
16:27But all those issues are missing.
16:29So which will an investigator choose in the case of the organized crime?
16:33The Superintendent of Police has the jurisdiction.
16:36Added to that, and let's look at it a little more further,
16:40the point is the terms in organized crime are not very well explained.
16:45Now, any law needed to change, it's been 160 odd years.
16:49There has to be improvement in change.
16:51We had to deal with technology.
16:53As your screen says, gender.
16:55We had to rationalize certain provisions.
16:57We had to see what contemporary terms say.
16:59We had to see what technology does.
17:01So let's look at your second bit of legislation, which is the procedural law.
17:06Trial guidelines, two adjournments, no more.
17:09Investigation to be concluded in limited time.
17:12Powers to the police to take custody up till 640 days or 60 days,
17:16though the period of custody remains 50 days.
17:19But there is a safeguard in Section 450.
17:22It says, this shall not be a ground to refuse bail alone.
17:26So there is an attempt to rationalize.
17:28There is a greater force of focus on technology.
17:30There is a greater focus on EFIRs.
17:33There is plea bargaining sought to be fine-tuned, however,
17:37and victims to be given greater rights.
17:39But the point is when victims may get an EFIR, victims may get,
17:42but today victims can download the EFIR off the website,
17:48anyway, of most police services.
17:50So while there are these changes and a lot of changes have been brought in
17:53through statute, and it is important, the devil lies in the detail.
17:58Do we have the infrastructure?
18:00We've trained our police officers, yes.
18:02We've trained our judges, yes.
18:04And judges, lawyers are used to dealing with new laws.
18:08That's part of their training from law school onwards.
18:11When we came to law school, we didn't know the law.
18:13We learned it.
18:14We've still learned it.
18:15When you change the PMLA, we learned it.
18:17When you change the Corruption Act, we learned it.
18:19This is just a larger exercise, but it's not that big a deal.
18:23The problem is the devil lies in the detail.
18:26How are these federal and state issues going to work out?
18:29You say for forensic exercises you're going to have video recording of
18:33arrests, you're going to have video recording of seizures.
18:38Where is that data?
18:40How are we going to preserve it?
18:41What are the devices?
18:42So those details have to be fine-tuned.
18:45You also have a situation where you're going to talk about, you know,
18:52allowing police officers to use mobile phones or smartphones.
18:56So should the government not have already issued smartphones to all the
19:00police officers?
19:03And these are smartphones which are important because this data that is
19:06recorded in them is going to be primary evidence.
19:10That's the new change in the law.
19:12Now let's come to the evidence law, the BSA, the adhenium.
19:15The adhenium is now a little more interesting.
19:18It allows corroborated confessions of co-accused.
19:22That's a matter of some concern.
19:24It was being not allowed earlier.
19:27They have opened up the area now of electronic evidence,
19:30knowing that technology is changing.
19:32So it's a forward-looking part.
19:33I think that's great.
19:35On the other hand, it has relaxed the rule of relevancy.
19:38I'm a little concerned with that.
19:40It has accepted expert witnesses almost as the gospel truth.
19:44So there are some issues that will have to be dealt with in the evidence
19:47law.
19:48But fortunately, no reverse burdens have been added.
19:51Fortunately, other restrictive covenants have not been added.
19:54So broadly to say, it's something we will have to learn.
19:59We'll have to work with.
20:01Any legislation in the Western world, in the UK, for example,
20:05all legislations are tested every 10 years.
20:08So when you test a legislation every 10 years, you see and you review it.
20:13You're looking at seeing what improvements, what deficiencies have been done.
20:17The devil, as I said, lies in the details.
20:19And therefore, wherever there are nebulous terms,
20:22wherever things are left open-ended, wherever there's executive power,
20:26whereas there is the ability of state authorities to exceed authority,
20:30that's the place where the courts must be vigilant and ensure no breach of
20:36fundamental rights.
20:37Technology, I must tell you, is an enabler.
20:41But it's the biggest restriction for abuse of power.
20:44An officer who is recording something or who, while questioning,
20:48is being put to a video recording, knows that he ought not to use third-degree
20:53methods.
20:54So let's see how this works out.
20:57As you're saying, obviously, we'll have to see how this is actually implemented.
21:00I'm going to bring in Swapnil now.
21:03Swapnil, what do you make of this, what has been described as a significant
21:08change?
21:09And do you share those concerns that Mr. Luthra just spoke about?
21:14Anupur, you know,
21:17it's always a concern when it comes to implementation in this country.
21:20We have always sufficient laws, but the implementation is disastrous.
21:24You're seeing it in the Pune Post case.
21:26Where are we at regarding that case?
21:30Still somewhere in limbo.
21:32The police has gone and appealed to the Supreme Court.
21:35So let's see what happens, what transpires there.
21:38Now, in addition to the things that Mr. Luthra mentioned,
21:42I think some of the key factors are that those evading arrests can also be
21:46tried in absentia.
21:47So for example, if somebody absconds from this country,
21:50Fugitive Economic Offenders Act always wanted extradition treaty,
21:54et cetera.
21:55So I think we can do away with that and we can still try him or her in
21:59absentia, whoever it is.
22:01It's gender neutral now.
22:03You have three genders as I can see it on your screen.
22:05That of course is very important.
22:0720 years for gang rape, 20 years to a lifer.
22:11So Beti Bachao, Beti Padhao is actually being put into action by increasing
22:16the length of the sentences or the severity of the sentence.
22:19One year jail for people who bribe voters during elections.
22:24Now how important is that?
22:26We've seen a lot of nonsense that was going on prior to the election,
22:31where the mayor tried to overturn the election in Chandigarh,
22:34the election results, electoral bonds judgment.
22:37So the Supreme Court was very clear as to what it wanted to do.
22:40And I believe that the government of course had done all these changes
22:43prior to these three, four judgments of the Supreme Court.
22:45But I think the government knew that it had to toe the line and it had to
22:49ensure that look at the broad conspectus of our democracy and not just
22:54certain penal provisions.
22:56Basically you're going to, this is just old wine and new bottle.
23:00It amounts to an overhaul in certain aspects.
23:03You've added some things like mob lynching, et cetera,
23:06can still merit a capital punishment.
23:09So in that sense, the law is extremely progressive.
23:13But now to say that within three years you're going to be able to go to
23:16the Supreme Court, only two adjournments, 45 days,
23:20some sort of a conclusion on the FIR,
23:24I don't think that is going to be really possible given the kind of delays
23:27that we have, given the kind of adjournments,
23:29possibilities that lawyers can come out with,
23:31and given the laxity or the leniency with which courts often function
23:36in this country.
23:38So unless and until you have some sort of a Singapore-based rules on
23:41arbitration and all those things, which I don't want to get into,
23:44except that they have a very limited amount of time for lawyers,
23:46limited amount of adjournments, and it's over and done with.
23:49And the same way the Supreme Court of the United States also functions,
23:52that you have limited time for arguments.
23:54That's the reason why before it closes for vacation in summer,
23:57the Supreme Court of the United States does not have a single case pending.
24:00So I don't want to get there because it's comparing apples and oranges,
24:03where you're comparing 270 years of independence with 70 years,
24:07and obviously one third of the population,
24:09which is there in the United States, as opposed to we are three times
24:11their population.
24:13So look for the question that merits attention and which is going to
24:16really, really plague all of us lawyers.
24:19And I think we lawyers have a fundamental duty here to ensure that we
24:23actually give teeth to these laws.
24:26Then, because we are officers of the court,
24:28so we have to assist the court, no question.
24:31And if we don't do that, if we don't do that,
24:33then we are as much guilty of trying to delay,
24:38have procrastination tactics,
24:40dilatory tactics as the terms that we use in law.
24:43All of these things really, really,
24:45because ultimately you have to serve the client,
24:47but at the same time you are an officer of the court,
24:49so that adequate balancing has to be done.
24:51And let me tell you, it's, you know,
24:53equal amount of abuse of that takes place even in civil practice,
24:57not only in criminal law practice.
24:59You know, in terms of adjournments,
25:01in terms of trying to give some stupid defenses,
25:05this, that, and the other.
25:06So that is something which we'll have to take a look at.
25:08And of course,
25:09lawyers have to be last point very conscientious in trying to take up the
25:11kind of cases that they do when it comes to,
25:14I would not have taken up the Pune Porsche case for the, you know,
25:17the person who's for the accused, but that's okay.
25:20I, you know, that's a different model story altogether.
25:22I don't want to get into that part.
25:23Absolutely.
25:24Absolutely.
25:25So as both of you seem to suggest, you know,
25:27a lot will lie in the details, how this is implemented.
25:31Mr.
25:32Luthra, as well as Swapnil Kothari.
25:34Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us this evening.
25:36Thanks.
25:37All right.
25:40So on that note,
25:41it's a wrap on this big story of the three new criminal laws that
25:46come into force today.
25:48Thank you very much for watching.