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FunTranscript
00:00 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:03 Hi, and welcome to The Process.
00:09 I am Justin Marks.
00:11 And I am Rachel Kondo.
00:12 And we are the co-creators of FX's Shogun.
00:16 We're pleased to be here with a very special conversation
00:20 with our show's costume designer, Carlos Rosario.
00:23 Hi, Carlos.
00:24 Hi, guys.
00:25 Nice to see you.
00:27 Hi.
00:28 Hello. At the very beginning of this process,
00:31 I remember, Carlos, with you, the lookbook
00:35 that you put together for this show.
00:38 What I find most interesting about it
00:40 is, kind of similar to us when we were writing the scripts,
00:45 is just presenting the ideas for what
00:49 this world could look like.
00:51 And yet, at the same time with you,
00:54 there was such an awareness of kind
00:56 of knowing what we don't yet know, right?
01:00 You know, with this show in particular,
01:02 it's like until you dive in over your head
01:06 on the volume of research every department
01:09 had to do for this show, we're really just kind of--
01:13 all we can do is go with our instincts, which
01:15 is what I was struck by with your process,
01:18 is that it was really just driven by those instincts.
01:21 Yeah.
01:22 You know, I think that when I read the first script,
01:24 I, you know, initially, it wasn't really
01:27 about the characters.
01:28 At that moment, I was a bit confused about how they
01:31 were connected to each other.
01:33 But I really fell in love with the period.
01:36 And I remember, you know, we had, I think,
01:38 about three interviews.
01:39 And I did a ton of boards, but mostly because I
01:43 fell in love with the period.
01:45 And I knew somehow the difference
01:47 between this period being a period of transition
01:52 at the end of a cycle of war.
01:53 And right before the Edo period.
01:56 And I could really have a sense of the difference
01:58 between this period and the Edo period, right?
02:01 And then when I read the script for the first time,
02:03 there were two things that really came to me very clearly.
02:08 And one was the colors and textures, you know.
02:11 And that made it very clear for me
02:13 about what direction we needed to take for the show.
02:17 The colors because you respected, you know,
02:20 James Clavel intention, you know,
02:22 description of all the armies, right?
02:26 Ishida's army being the gray army,
02:28 Toranaga's army being the brown army.
02:31 And so that was really the starting point of, you know,
02:34 of everything in a way.
02:36 Because with that, we knew that the audience would
02:39 know exactly who is who.
02:40 And it was a great way to visually make
02:44 it clear to the audience, right?
02:45 So that was very important for me.
02:48 And I think it made the visuals more interesting.
02:50 And then the textures mostly because I felt like
02:53 before the Edo period, it needed to be a bit more rustic,
02:57 you know, more in touch with nature, right?
02:59 And so I think those two elements for me
03:01 really created the foundation to everything
03:04 that happened afterwards, you know.
03:06 And then of course we were in touch with, you know,
03:08 our expert in Kyoto, Frederick Rins,
03:11 who really helped us to understand this period,
03:14 you know, in such detail, you know.
03:17 Thanks to the paintings too,
03:19 was really the essence of everything, you know.
03:21 So that was very helpful for me to understand
03:24 what this period was about.
03:26 - Yeah, I, you know, what, and just,
03:28 I think it's important to clarify for viewers,
03:32 you know, with the show, what you mean by the kind of,
03:35 the period that our show takes place in,
03:37 the Sengoku Jidai, was this period of this great
03:41 kind of political unrest where what we were learning
03:46 across the board was how there were no rules.
03:51 As many rules as there were,
03:53 everyone was kind of breaking rules in a certain way.
03:56 And I think, you know, I'm remembering most fondly
04:00 our conversations about like, in a certain sense,
04:03 then it created this feeling of like,
04:05 it's kind of like a big Met Gala, you know,
04:07 where everyone is sort of strutting their stuff
04:11 in a very specific way to be provocative,
04:14 to be expressive of their character.
04:17 And it was, for us, I think, very unexpected
04:22 because it was our impression that Japan throughout history
04:27 is very codified in the way that, you know,
04:29 people wear clothing.
04:31 And in fact, it was anything but at that time.
04:34 And, you know, if you were to pick, I guess,
04:37 I know what my pitch would be.
04:39 I don't know what your pitch would be, Rachel,
04:42 but I mean, I'm curious for you,
04:44 like the best kind of rule breaker character.
04:48 And it's not leading because there are many on this show.
04:52 And in terms of what you were able to do for their costume,
04:56 like what would you say is your favorite?
04:58 - Well, I mean, there are many, many pieces
05:00 that I think are very special to us.
05:03 You know, I think Lady Uchiba obviously was a muse, right?
05:07 And because like you said before, I mean, all these novels,
05:11 the purpose for all these novels was really to show
05:13 their wealth and their power through their costumes.
05:16 So I think with her, we went all the way.
05:18 And so that was very exciting, right?
05:20 But I think I really liked, I mean, I obviously liked,
05:23 you know, certain pieces for Turanaga, like the jimbaris,
05:27 you know, all the feather pieces were beautiful to design.
05:30 And I think Mariko too,
05:32 because Mariko has such an interesting emotional arc
05:36 that I think her costumes are more based on that,
05:40 her emotional arc, where she's at psychologically,
05:44 more than actually the historical aspects
05:48 of what I could have done for her costumes.
05:51 So I think that was a bit more symbolic,
05:54 and I thought that was very interesting
05:57 to design her uchikakes in a way
06:00 that it would reflect where she was at.
06:03 And then, like your piece, your favorite piece,
06:08 Oyabu's jimbari feather jubi.
06:10 - He said it wasn't a leading question.
06:12 It was a leading question.
06:14 - It was definitely a leading question.
06:16 But, you know, it goes back to what you just said,
06:19 and this period was definitely a period of transition.
06:22 And so the rules are a little bit different
06:24 than in other periods, right?
06:26 And I remember my conversation with, you know,
06:28 I was able to speak with Ms. Kurosawa,
06:30 you know, the daughter of the director,
06:32 who's a costume designer in Japan.
06:34 And I remember what came out of that conversation
06:37 was the fact that, you know,
06:39 I could just play a little bit
06:40 outside the boundaries of this period,
06:42 and mostly in terms of the jimbaris,
06:45 that there were not really specific rules.
06:47 And so, you know, that's when I started having fun
06:50 with the feather jimbaris.
06:51 Also because it goes back to what I was saying earlier
06:54 about the fact that I wanted pieces
06:56 that represented more nature,
06:58 that were maybe more organic and in touch with nature,
07:00 as opposed to the Edo period,
07:03 where it was a bit more flamboyant and shiny and, you know.
07:06 So that was really very interesting,
07:09 and that was very helpful.
07:11 - Yeah. - I mean,
07:11 that's kind of a designer's dream.
07:14 - That was a dream.
07:15 - Someone says, "Oh, maybe you make the rules a little bit."
07:19 - Totally, totally.
07:20 I heard it and I ran with it.
07:22 (speaking in foreign language)
07:28 (speaking in foreign language)
07:32 (speaking in foreign language)
07:36 (speaking in foreign language)
07:39 (speaking in foreign language)
08:03 (speaking in foreign language)
08:06 - For some, for those people who are coming,
08:14 or who are new to your work and your career,
08:19 I'm curious to know if you could just talk
08:22 a little bit about,
08:23 is this the first project you had worked on
08:26 that was steeped in this kind of historical research?
08:30 - Yes.
08:31 - And also kind of how you balance, right?
08:34 Like getting certain historical details right,
08:37 but also what you did so elegantly and powerfully
08:42 was infuse your own touch on it,
08:48 you know, your own stamp and finding how you do that
08:51 when these are historical pieces.
08:55 - Yeah, and I think that's a good point
08:57 that we should talk about it,
08:59 is that this was, we knew since the beginning
09:00 that this wasn't a show just specifically for Japan.
09:04 This was something that was gonna be shown
09:06 in the entire world.
09:08 So the key, the most important thing for us to do
09:10 is to understand the Japanese aesthetic,
09:13 to be respectful towards that culture,
09:16 you know, the Japanese culture,
09:18 but then also find a way, you know,
09:21 to bring it into the Western audience
09:23 in a way that it would be approachable for them, right?
09:27 And so I think that was the key,
09:28 the most important thing for all of us,
09:30 for all the departments to be able to just find ways
09:34 to find the balance between being historically accurate,
09:37 but at the same time, you know, presenting to the world
09:41 in a way that they would connect with the characters,
09:43 you know, so that was,
09:44 but Justin has always said something to me
09:47 that was, you know, sort of very important
09:50 and that I always remember.
09:51 And he said to me at some point, you know,
09:53 we need to know this period as much as possible,
09:56 but then once we know this, the boundaries of this period,
10:00 if we need to play outside those boundaries a little bit,
10:03 because it helps the storyline, it helps the character,
10:06 then we need to do that.
10:07 And so I think that the first step was clearly
10:10 to do a lot of research
10:11 and I've never done as much research in my life,
10:15 you know, even the research that I've done
10:17 in all the other projects that I've worked on,
10:19 I think this just, you know, brings it to a whole new level,
10:23 but that was amazing, you know,
10:24 this is the way to do shows
10:25 and it shows everybody has been so excited
10:28 about seeing the detailed work that all of us,
10:31 all the departments have done.
10:33 - I will say every time we've been discussing your work
10:37 on the show, the way we would discuss
10:40 walking into your department and how,
10:43 I, it never even occurred to me that this was possible,
10:46 but you had just as many books as you did fabrics,
10:51 all the stacks of historical referencing,
10:56 and it was just, it was such a warm department
10:59 and you just felt hugged when you walked in.
11:02 - Thank you, I mean, I think that's why I put
11:05 all the drawings and, you know,
11:07 and all the boards in the wall,
11:08 because it feels like you need to be part of that container,
11:11 you need to absorb it, you need to be part of it
11:14 from in every single way,
11:17 from the beginning to the end, right?
11:18 And so you're absolutely right,
11:20 it felt like a cocoon.
11:21 I mean, I love doing those presentations for you guys,
11:24 you know, for every episode,
11:25 and I would dress the mannequins with some of the costumes.
11:29 And I thought that was the best way to show you,
11:31 you know, my intentions and the ideas
11:34 and see how you would respond to all that, you know?
11:36 And so I think it's,
11:38 I think this project really incorporates a little bit
11:41 everything that is a dream for a costume designer,
11:44 because it's very,
11:45 you have very complex, interesting characters.
11:48 It's, you know, very intellectual
11:50 in the sense that you need to do a lot of research,
11:53 but it's also very psychological, right?
11:54 And very creative.
11:56 So it has components that I think, you know,
11:59 makes this an absolute treat, you know?
12:02 - Yeah, I mean, it's,
12:03 we used to joke about this
12:04 when we were working on the show, right, Carlos?
12:06 But that, I think I went,
12:09 early in our process, I went into it saying,
12:11 you know, I don't,
12:12 I don't speak costume.
12:15 I just, I can't, I can't speak costume.
12:17 I don't understand it on an aesthetic level
12:21 on the, in the way that you can.
12:23 In order to give notes, the only way,
12:25 the only language I speak,
12:26 which was such a valuable thing
12:28 because you spoke it so well,
12:30 is the language of character and story.
12:32 That was really,
12:34 and I think that something you bring that's very unique
12:38 is that I, that feels to me,
12:39 I mean, there's such a volume of research
12:42 that you put into it and instinct and taste.
12:45 And yet when you express it,
12:47 we are just talking about the story of our show.
12:50 And I think that that is probably
12:55 what I'll remember most is the silhouette of your work
12:59 and the look of this show,
13:01 that the research that goes into this,
13:04 the research that, you know,
13:05 goes into rendering a world from 1600 Japan authentically
13:10 is really just that first step.
13:14 It's what we used to say,
13:16 that the research is what frees us to then have fun.
13:18 - Absolutely.
13:19 - As opposed to trapping us.
13:20 'Cause I think it was such a common mistake for decades.
13:25 You can look at films and I can start to tell
13:28 when they feel bound by the history
13:31 they're trying to render on screen
13:33 as opposed to absorbing, absorbing, absorbing,
13:36 and then doing what we do as artists,
13:38 which is then articulating our interpretation
13:41 of that space.
13:43 You know, and it was so,
13:46 that's something that I hope you know.
13:49 I don't know how you found it
13:50 or how we all found it together,
13:52 you know, accidentally on purpose,
13:54 or just, you know, as we always like to say,
13:56 building the car as we go.
13:58 But it really did start to bleed out into all departments
14:03 once that process was defined through the course of prep,
14:07 you know, to say we can have fun.
14:10 - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
14:12 Is there anything in your career
14:14 that had kind of prepared you for the size and scale
14:19 of what you were able to do?
14:22 - You know, I've worked on really tiny projects,
14:24 like, and big projects, and, you know,
14:27 period projects and sci-fi projects.
14:29 And so I think it's just, you know,
14:31 that flexibility that really allowed me to do Shogun,
14:34 you know, and being able to also,
14:36 I mean, I've worked on a lot of big shows too,
14:38 not like Shogun.
14:39 I think Shogun just gets, you know,
14:41 puts everything else in, you know, at a lower level.
14:44 But it really allowed me to carry this,
14:49 you know, sort of understand my, you know,
14:53 my voice as a costume designer, right?
14:56 And also be able to handle, you know,
14:59 the responsibility of carrying such a big project, right?
15:02 So I think it's a mixture of like the last 30 years
15:05 of everything.
15:05 And I always say this, you know,
15:07 when people tell me, what do you take from this project?
15:10 I think it's the sense of aliveness
15:12 that I've had designing this project,
15:14 because I think everything that I am as a designer,
15:17 as a human being, everything that I've learned
15:19 in the last 30 years went into this project, you know?
15:22 So to me, it was the most beautiful project that,
15:26 you know, that I've been given.
15:27 So I'm really grateful to both of you for this.
15:29 (crowd cheering)
15:32 (speaking in foreign language)
15:39 (speaking in foreign language)
15:43 (speaking in foreign language)
15:47 (crowd cheering)
16:11 (speaking in foreign language)
16:15 (crowd cheering)
16:28 - So let me ask the question that, you know,
16:35 this is the question that as writers we dealt with,
16:38 I think everyone on this show,
16:39 this was the journey of this show,
16:42 or at least for those of us who were not Japanese
16:45 working on the show,
16:46 you had many advisors, many voices
16:52 whispering in your ear constantly, constantly,
16:56 you know, through your design process on the day,
16:59 every single time, you know,
17:01 people sort of telling you it's not like that,
17:03 or it is like that, or it ought to be like that,
17:05 or it can't be like that.
17:06 How did you find the balance of, you know,
17:11 that authenticity, which was always our driving desire
17:14 for the show, but with creative autonomy?
17:17 Because I think that this is the thing that, you know,
17:20 was a real magic.
17:22 And I try to look back for us and wonder how it was done too
17:27 from time to time.
17:29 You know, where did you find a center that said,
17:32 this is who I am, and this is the world
17:35 that I'm trying to be respectful of and do right?
17:39 - That's a really good question, Justin.
17:41 - I know, yeah.
17:42 - I think it's a beautiful question,
17:45 and I think there is just,
17:46 it could be answered in so many,
17:47 there are so many elements that I could say about it.
17:49 I think that, you know, the first thing is that I think
17:52 that the trust that both of you put in me
17:54 has allowed me to find my inner confidence
17:58 and just be in tune with my intuition.
18:01 And I think that that's the reason why, for me,
18:04 I wanted to start this project with a white canvas, you know,
18:07 so I could give this project its own voice, right?
18:12 Without the impact of the book,
18:16 the mini series from the '80s,
18:18 I wanted to know what you guys had to say.
18:21 And I think that for the first five months of prep,
18:24 you remember, I think we had one or two Zoom calls
18:28 every week, and so my intention was to present you
18:32 all these different concepts for all the different characters
18:34 to see what, you know, what you related to,
18:37 what you didn't like, you know,
18:39 and so that really gave me a sense of where this was going,
18:42 you know, and so I think the trust that then you put in me
18:46 by, you know, understanding where I was going,
18:49 and, you know, I think it really helped me
18:53 to move forward in a very confident way, you know?
18:56 That's one thing.
18:57 Then the other thing is that I feel like,
18:59 because I am French, but to Spanish family,
19:03 and then I lived in America probably more than in Europe,
19:06 and I've been traveling all my life,
19:08 I think I've always had a sense of, you know,
19:13 of trying to, this curiosity of trying to understand
19:15 all kinds of different cultures
19:17 and being respectful towards them, right?
19:19 So I think that gave me a little bit that, you know,
19:22 curiosity to understand and respect the Japanese culture,
19:25 which I think was really the most important thing here,
19:28 but then also understand after all the movies
19:31 that I've designed in my career
19:34 to understand what the audience,
19:35 the Western audience is asking for,
19:37 which is slightly a little bit different
19:39 from the Japanese, you know, audience, right?
19:42 So I think that's where I think this mixture
19:44 of everything allowed me to,
19:46 gave me the flexibility to understand that balance.
19:50 - Yeah, I think the word you're,
19:51 the key word, if I'm to,
19:53 'cause I think we've been going through a year and a half
19:56 of processing of how, you know, what were the successes?
20:00 How did they come about?
20:01 You know, all of that.
20:03 And the word that I come back to, which you just used,
20:06 and I think it does define our process together,
20:08 was that curiosity.
20:11 It's the process that always early with Mikaela Clavel,
20:15 executive producer on the show, James Clavel's daughter,
20:17 when asked about what made her father different
20:20 from other people in, you know,
20:23 his prisoner of war camp, everything else,
20:25 her line was that he was more curious than anyone else.
20:29 And I think that that's part of the magic, you know,
20:33 that when you start with curiosity,
20:35 start with listening and you absorb for a long time,
20:40 when you then turn around and speak, you know,
20:43 and say, well, okay, now I've put it through my mechanism
20:46 and now it's time to express.
20:49 I think it earns credibility,
20:53 not just with our Japanese advisors,
20:55 but I think with the audience, you know,
20:57 you see something different.
20:59 - Yeah, but also I feel like you were the one that,
21:04 you know, drove the boat to the right place.
21:07 And I think that throughout all the prep and, you know,
21:12 shooting all those episodes,
21:14 you were always so passionate
21:16 about doing things the right way.
21:19 And most of the projects that I've worked on,
21:21 everybody always tries to cut the corners.
21:24 You always wanted to, you know, very passionately,
21:28 you wanted everybody to be at the best of their game
21:32 and do the best that we could in terms of detail,
21:35 in terms of understanding the period,
21:37 in terms of, you know, understanding the characters.
21:40 And I think it's your passion and your sense of curiosity
21:43 that bled into all of us too, you know.
21:46 It's at the end of the day, it's the leader that,
21:48 you know, impacts the rest of the team.
21:51 So I think to me, to see you so passionate about,
21:55 you know, being as accurate as possible
21:57 is really what drove me to do the best that we could.
21:59 - I think we learned from each other
22:02 'cause none of us had ever done this before, right?
22:04 And, you know, some of the things
22:06 that I'm interested to hear about too,
22:09 as you, you know, talk about which pieces
22:12 we're going to highlight for voters, audiences,
22:17 people within the industry, I, you know,
22:19 I really wanted to come back to this thing
22:23 of some examples in the show that I always thought,
22:28 and, you know, in post-production
22:31 was very long on this show.
22:32 So we had a lot of time to stare at screens
22:35 and to really do a lot of processing after the fact.
22:38 So I will lead by the piece that I'm most struck by,
22:41 which is not Yawashige's "Jim Bowery," thank you very much.
22:46 Although I think that Yawashige's "Jim Bowery" for us
22:49 was a very special seminal moment early in the production
22:54 because it was the first time we said,
22:55 "Oh, we're doing, we're kind of doing science fiction here.
22:59 You know, we can have fun with this."
23:01 - But it also crystallized what we had seen
23:04 in our minds in the room.
23:06 And then for it to be manifested in that "Jim Bowery"
23:11 was a moment when we said,
23:13 "I think we have some potential."
23:17 - That's Diablo, totally.
23:18 - And when Tadanova put that on for the first time,
23:20 that look on his face riding into frame, you know,
23:25 you know, this guy is here to chew gum and mess things up
23:30 and he's all out of gum, you know, like, and it just-
23:32 - That's totally an iconic shot.
23:34 That's a beautiful shot.
23:35 I mean, that just, you know,
23:37 and that's what I had in mind initially.
23:39 I thought this guy is a rockstar, you know?
23:42 So I think it was perfect.
23:44 And it really shows the power of a costume, you know,
23:47 and how much it can, you know,
23:48 you know, bring to the characters that you guys,
23:52 you know, you know, put into paper.
23:54 And so, you know, it really says
23:57 the power of costume design, absolutely.
24:00 - And I think that the power of costume when married with,
24:03 we have a lot of characters on this show
24:05 and very few actors, at least to an American audience
24:09 who they're very accustomed to seeing a lot.
24:11 So you can't just rely on the shorthand.
24:13 I'm so always remembering like Oppenheimer,
24:16 Christopher Nolan talked about casting stars in that movie
24:19 was a means of understanding who everyone was.
24:21 Well, we don't have that working in our favor.
24:24 We had costumes.
24:26 The entrance of every character was so essential
24:29 because it created that silhouette.
24:31 And then you just never forget them
24:33 as long as they're there.
24:34 Toronaga's hat, his hunting hat, right from the beginning,
24:38 you know, which I, the first time you showed that to me,
24:41 I was so afraid of it.
24:42 - I know, I'm so glad we went for it at the end
24:44 because it just became such an iconic, beautiful image
24:47 and it was the best way to introduce him.
24:49 And also to show to the audience,
24:51 we are ready to make this as accurate as possible.
24:55 Even if it just feels a little bit strange
24:57 to the modern audience, this is the way it was, right?
25:00 And so I'm so glad that we went for that
25:02 because it's such a beautiful shot.
25:04 You know, it just really, that costume without that hat,
25:07 it would have never been the same.
25:09 (speaking in foreign language)
25:14 (speaking in foreign language)
25:18 (speaking in foreign language)
25:23 (speaking in foreign language)
25:27 (speaking in foreign language)
25:31 (speaking in foreign language)
25:35 (speaking in foreign language)
25:54 (speaking in foreign language)
25:58 - Yabushige's horsehair helmet, the same.
26:20 - I mean, that was going back to the concept
26:23 of using natural elements, right?
26:25 So, and that was horsehair and then we style it
26:30 in a way that it felt like it was a lion's tame, right?
26:34 But that was also based on, because you remember,
26:37 we did a lot of research on what the real characters
26:41 wore in real life.
26:42 So I think that was the starting point,
26:45 the inspiration for that.
26:47 And that was a great piece.
26:48 I mean, that was a very unique
26:49 and I think very defining that period also.
26:53 I don't think that you would see that type of helmet
26:55 in other periods later on.
26:59 - Kiku's kosode.
27:00 - So Kiku's kosode, I mean, that is really interesting
27:03 because that one, I mean, I knew I wanted red, right?
27:07 I think that was very important
27:10 because red was the color of the courtesans
27:12 and it's very sensual and all that.
27:14 So it was perfect for her, but it's really interesting
27:17 because then I found this vintage, you know,
27:20 kosode, kimono, and so I cut certain pieces
27:24 that then I attached to the red uchikake, right?
27:28 And it's very interesting because I didn't want to look
27:31 at the miniseries from the '80s
27:34 because I didn't want to be influenced by that.
27:37 I wanted to start from scratch and not look into the past.
27:41 And it's really interesting because once we designed it,
27:43 I remember Kenichi, one of my assistants,
27:46 came to me with the computer and he said,
27:49 "Carlos, look, look, look."
27:50 And so he showed me the uchikake of the Kiku
27:54 of the miniseries from the '80s.
27:56 And actually it's very interesting
27:57 because the applications, the embroidery that I put
28:01 into the red uchikake of our Kiku
28:03 had the same symbols as the one from the '80s.
28:07 So it's really interesting because I feel like when,
28:10 and many things like that happen throughout, you know,
28:12 the design, the creative process,
28:15 I feel like when you are in alignment with everybody
28:18 and with all the departments and the actors
28:20 and you love passionately the project
28:22 and you design with intuition and instinct,
28:26 I feel like all the things always come together beautifully.
28:29 You know, it's almost like there is nothing bigger
28:31 than what we are that has guided us to do things
28:34 in a specific way.
28:35 Like, for example, when I chose the uchikake
28:38 for "Mariko" for episode nine, right?
28:41 The one with the cranes and the branches without leaves,
28:46 I didn't connect the poem that she was giving
28:49 to the uchikake.
28:50 And then it's actually afterwards
28:52 when I actually watched the show
28:54 that I was like, how incredible
28:56 that all these things have come together
28:58 and that I chose an uchikake
29:00 that was representing what she was saying.
29:02 So sometimes it's interesting how that come up.
29:05 - I was gonna end with that because that was the real,
29:08 you know, to me, the master stroke of costume work.
29:11 But I wanna, since you brought it up,
29:13 I wanna remember our first conversation about it.
29:16 And I remember where I was sitting in Los Angeles
29:18 when we were Zooming together talking about it
29:20 because until, it's interesting to hear you say that,
29:24 that you didn't sort of see it come together to the end
29:26 because I think,
29:28 and members of the audience have to understand
29:32 how bad I am at clothes
29:35 and how costumes are not the language that I speak in.
29:41 And yet when you showed that uchikake
29:44 and we were first discussing these branches,
29:47 I don't think that as writers,
29:50 maybe Rachel, you and Callen felt differently,
29:53 you know, writing that episode
29:55 and the poetry contest and everything,
29:57 but I don't think I had really internalized
30:00 the importance of "On a Leafless Branch"
30:02 until I saw that piece.
30:04 And it was on that Zoom when it suddenly hit me
30:09 and I said out loud to you,
30:10 I said, "Oh, because a branch without leaves
30:14 "is a branch without purpose,
30:16 "without identity and without expression."
30:19 And that's what Mariko has been for so long.
30:22 And now she blossoms, you know,
30:25 now she sort of finds that color.
30:28 You know, you had robbed her of early
30:32 and we had robbed her of in the story early.
30:34 And it's her discovery of that process
30:37 that is the journey of the show.
30:39 - Absolutely, and I think what's interesting
30:40 about that uchikake is that for me,
30:42 I wasn't focusing on the branches without leaves,
30:45 I was focusing on the cranes that were about to take off.
30:49 So it's interesting because it was the old Mariko
30:51 that we met in the beginning and the new one,
30:54 you know, the one with purpose.
30:55 And so it was really the perfect combination,
30:58 you know, that needed to be on that uchikake.
31:01 So that was a beautiful piece, you know,
31:03 and I'm glad it's the one that we see everywhere.
31:05 - One of the things that I noticed in post-production
31:07 that I don't think ever in the process of on the day
31:10 appreciated when you talk about uchikake is, was Ochiba.
31:15 And, you know, we knew, right,
31:18 women of her high status were just clad
31:21 in layer after layer after layer.
31:23 And I think that even asked for more layers,
31:26 you know, what her silhouette,
31:28 I was so struck by thinking of her character now
31:32 in its totality was,
31:34 I don't believe I ever really noticed her hands or arms
31:39 because so weighed down was she by her own privilege
31:45 and by her own obligations to society
31:50 that, you know, it felt like when you look at her now,
31:52 knowing how heavy those fabrics were,
31:55 you just realized like,
31:56 this is a woman who could barely move across the hallway,
32:00 that that was an act of will in itself,
32:03 which I think speaks so well to the character.
32:05 - Yeah, and also I think that it was a way to show
32:07 that she was of a higher rank too, you know,
32:10 or layers she had.
32:11 So the most powerful woman, you know, she was in Osaka,
32:16 right, so that's, I think the reason why she has like five
32:18 or six layers more than anybody else.
32:20 Actually, her zoris are higher
32:23 than all the other female characters.
32:25 And actually she is the only one with the Yaechiyo,
32:30 Lady Daiyoin and the Taiko that were cotton tabbies
32:34 because cotton was very expensive then and very rare.
32:37 So we only gave to those four characters the cotton tabbies.
32:41 So I think all those things are part of all the research
32:44 that we did in understanding the language
32:47 of the clothing of that period, you know,
32:49 and I think it really, you know, helps us, you know,
32:53 define the character and give the audience, you know,
32:56 an authentic character, you know,
32:59 that doesn't carry.
33:00 And I think the trick is not to create something
33:03 that is too overwhelming
33:04 that you don't see the character, right?
33:06 So it's also about finding the balance
33:08 where the costume is behind the character, right?
33:13 So, but what about you guys?
33:14 Did you, are those characters the way they were dressed?
33:18 Did you feel like that's the way you envisioned them
33:20 in the beginning or you were waiting to see
33:22 where this was when you write?
33:24 Do you visualize the characters in a specific way
33:27 or do you expect, you know, the team to kind of like start
33:32 sort of, you know, doing research and, you know,
33:35 showing you some ideas?
33:37 - Well, I'll just speak to one character whose entrance
33:39 I definitely think in, at least in my mind,
33:43 was always there.
33:44 And yet the costume that he walked in with
33:48 was far exceeding, I think,
33:51 all of our dreams and expectations, which would be Sayeki.
33:54 And when he strides into frame in episode seven with,
33:59 I don't know what even to call that on his head,
34:02 a shark fin, you know, this thing that is so awesome
34:07 that just the framing itself was,
34:12 I remember like just thinking of like Sam and Takeshi
34:15 who shot that episode, like how they would even,
34:17 do we focus on his face
34:19 or do we have to get back far enough
34:20 to get the whole helmet shot?
34:22 You know, what is it?
34:24 - I'm so glad you spoke about that costume
34:26 because that is, I think,
34:28 one of the most beautiful ones for sure.
34:30 And I remember asking for the sort of the helmet,
34:33 you know, higher, like, you know, a little bit higher,
34:35 a little bit higher, a little bit higher.
34:36 And I'm like, you know, they told me it's gonna fall,
34:38 it's gonna fall.
34:39 I'm like, we're gonna make it work,
34:40 we're gonna make it work.
34:41 And so at the end, and it's interesting
34:43 because I think the way we started designing, you know,
34:45 Sayeki and all those armors were in different colours.
34:48 And you are the one who actually kind of guided us
34:51 towards making them like white.
34:52 And then we introduced the red,
34:54 but I thought that all those characters coming through,
34:57 Sayeki and his army coming through the fog in white,
35:00 it's beautiful.
35:01 It's very ethereal.
35:02 It feels like a ghost, right?
35:04 There's something so magical about it.
35:06 And I think it was really the way.
35:07 It's a very striking, powerful image,
35:09 a great entrance for a character that is so dramatic.
35:14 - Yeah, it's important the audience knows, right?
35:16 White in Japan is sort of the colour of death.
35:20 It's the colour of mourning.
35:23 And it's used very delicately.
35:26 You use it with Mariko in her final moments.
35:30 You use it with, we chose, I think we called them silver
35:33 to get around the technicality of white,
35:35 but it was, and we wanted them to feel
35:38 like just death approaching.
35:40 - Yeah.
35:41 White with a gleam, 'cause it had something,
35:44 some other dimension to it.
35:46 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:46 No, that was a beautiful.
35:47 And I remember being there that day in the morning
35:50 and that was just, yeah.
35:51 That's what we make this type of projects.
35:53 That's what we are into, entertainment.
35:55 I mean, it doesn't get as much better than this, right?
35:59 It was just really magical.
36:00 - You know, if I can wrap it up by speaking to,
36:03 I think what the audience response has been,
36:06 not just to the show, but to the costume,
36:08 what I'm proudest of truly is how much,
36:13 in terms of the feedback, the online chatter,
36:16 everything else for this show,
36:18 how much of it is directed to what these characters
36:21 are wearing at their given moments.
36:25 That it's not just that it's history
36:29 and there's a right or wrong answer.
36:30 Oh my gosh, there are a million possible answers,
36:33 choices that you had to make on a daily basis.
36:37 And that people reacted to it.
36:40 Now you speak my language because it feels like
36:42 we're talking about science fiction.
36:45 You know, we're talking about expression through costume
36:49 that is a world that we're, as artists,
36:51 really rendering from the ground up.
36:54 And I think that, I don't know how we lucked
36:59 into being together on this one.
37:01 I have, you know, our partner on this project,
37:04 Ed McDonald, to thank for bringing you in, you know.
37:08 But I don't think we would have this show
37:12 without your work.
37:14 - Yeah.
37:15 I think when Justin says science fiction,
37:19 where he says that, I say, like,
37:21 you were the one who gave everybody a plane ticket
37:24 to 1600 Japan, you know.
37:27 We got to actually go there and experience it
37:32 and sensorially experience it, you know.
37:37 And it leapt out at us because of your work.
37:41 And I don't think, I think you were the one
37:44 who actually, you were asked earlier about,
37:48 is this what we saw?
37:49 I don't think we had the eyes to see when we started.
37:52 It was through your work that kind of allowed us to say,
37:57 ah, this is what we were aiming toward, you know.
38:00 And you were that, the thing that kind of brought
38:04 everything together.
38:06 - Thank you.
38:06 Thank you.
38:07 I mean, listen, I think for me,
38:08 it was an incredible opportunity.
38:09 And I think that it was such a treat.
38:12 So I will always eternally be grateful
38:15 to both of you for giving me,
38:16 and to Ed for opening the door for us to meet
38:19 because it was, I remember our first interviews
38:23 and I just kept thinking there was no way
38:25 they're going to give me this project.
38:27 But I fell in love with the period
38:28 and it was after the pandemic.
38:29 And I'm like, you know what?
38:31 I just really enjoy doing this research.
38:33 I'm going to keep going, doing all this boards,
38:35 present them to Justin and see what happened.
38:38 But, you know, I'm so happy that you guys
38:41 gave me this great opportunity.
38:42 And I think that if you would have not created this,
38:45 you know, this safe container, you know,
38:48 for me to be able to do my job properly
38:51 and support me and guide me throughout, you know,
38:53 16 months, I think it would have been a different story.
38:57 So, you know, I'm thankful for that opportunity.
39:00 - Well, thank you.
39:01 And, you know, if I like, just as the closing words
39:04 for anyone who's watching this,
39:06 I hope that everyone who sees this show,
39:10 I hope they can see that, you know,
39:12 in the future when we talk about historical pieces
39:15 and when we talk about this feeling
39:17 that we all have felt at various times
39:20 of being constrained by research
39:22 or constrained by a desire to respect cultures
39:27 and do it right.
39:28 And I think so often in the past of movies and television,
39:31 that results in those corner cutting moments,
39:33 that results in those choices we make
39:35 because I have to express me at some point.
39:38 I have to address me.
39:39 I hope, Carlos, that your work can stand
39:42 as really just a lighthouse to this idea
39:47 that the research can free us as artists.
39:49 The research can lead us to express ourselves
39:52 in ways that we've never seen before.
39:55 I really congratulate you for finding that language.
40:00 And I hope that that language sticks around
40:02 because we all need it as audiences.
40:05 - Carlos, thank you so much for your time.
40:07 And it has been great catching up.
40:09 We have missed you.
40:11 We have missed you in our day to day,
40:12 but we think of you.
40:14 And as Justin said, congratulations.
40:18 - Thank you guys.
40:19 - All this attention, well-deserved.
40:21 - Congratulations to you too.
40:22 Thank you guys.
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