Scott Fitzgerald Questions ATF Director About Classifications Of Less Lethal Projectile Devices

4 months ago

At Thursday's House Judiciary Committee hearing, Rep. Scott Fitzgerald (R-WI) questioned ATF Director Steven Dettelbach about classification of less lethal projectile devices.

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Transcript

00:00The gentleman from Wisconsin is recognized.

00:02Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:03Director, as you may know, I'm the co-lead alongside with Congressman Stanton of Arizona

00:10on the bill that's exempting certain less than lethal projectile devices

00:15from the Gun Control Act definition of firearm tasers.

00:21ATF provided some comments on an earlier draft of the bill,

00:26noting some concerns with the legislation.

00:29I'm sure you're aware of the bill.

00:32Does ATF still have the same concerns that we had on the earlier version?

00:35Congressman, can I get back to you on that?

00:37I don't want to answer precipitously.

00:38I know this is an important issue for a lot of people,

00:42including some in law enforcement, have expressed views on it.

00:44So can we get back to you on that?

00:46Because I don't know whether any changes in the bill have affected anything.

00:50Okay.

00:50So then let me just bear with me then.

00:54I'll explain some of the arguments.

00:56Hopefully, as the director, your understanding of the Gun Control Act

01:01will be strong enough to provide some context.

01:04But the proposed definition of less than lethal device

01:09would be unworkable in the field, I think is the issue.

01:12Because officers and agents cannot measure the projectile velocity

01:16during field stops and searches and seizures.

01:19As opposed to centrally, but you're talking about out in the field, I understand.

01:24So, I mean, ATF doesn't currently test any of the firearm velocity in the field

01:31on any of the search and seizure stuff.

01:34Is that right or not?

01:36To the best of my knowledge, that is correct.

01:39It's always hard because some of our operations aren't in Washington.

01:43We have operations that are not field operations,

01:45but are centralized in other places.

01:46So I want to be careful.

01:48But we have, I think you're right as a general matter, yes.

01:52I'll check though and get back to you.

01:53If that's not correct, I'll get back to you.

01:55Okay, okay.

01:56So to be clear, ATF right now, though, the concerns

01:59that this change would be unworkable in the field hinges on the idea

02:02that officers and agents would suddenly need to start measuring velocity

02:07and checking the internal workings, right?

02:09I mean, I'm trying to get to the bottom

02:11because I think Congress is way beyond ATF on this.

02:15I think there's a bipartisan group that certainly is starting to grow

02:21when it comes to this technology.

02:23And ATF still seems stuck in where we were three, four, five years ago.

02:31Okay, I understand.

02:34I mean, obviously you're getting the same feedback that we are

02:37because this is law enforcement wants more.

02:41There are exceptions in the current law for law enforcement,

02:44but I understand your concern and we will get back to you, Congressman.

02:48I will commit to you that we will get back to you.

02:50Okay, very good, very good.

02:52So with the time that I have left, I just also wanted to submit

02:56for the record a letter from Mr. Earl Griffith,

02:58who served in the ATF for more than 20 years,

03:01retiring as a division chief of ATF's Firearm and Ammunition Technology Division.

03:08Mr. Griffith's letter, dated March 6, 2024,

03:12is in support of the bill, H.R. 3269,

03:16and suggests that ATF already has the existing authority

03:19to revisit classification determinations

03:22if the manufacturer decides to modify a less lethal projectile device

03:28into a lethal configuration.

03:30And that's what the manufacturers are doing.

03:32I mean, they're changing the technology

03:34to kind of match up with where ATF is at,

03:37and I think that's unnecessary.

03:38I think this thing could be cleaned up

03:40if we would just have somebody pay attention

03:43to kind of where Congress is moving on this

03:45and how quickly we're moving.

03:46Congressman, my understanding is that the statutory language

03:49that is at issue in a lot of these

03:50is to expel a projectile by means of an explosion.

03:57And that is what is causing some of these classifications.

04:00Now, Mr. Griffith, obviously, is a well-respected long-time ATF employee.

04:05We'll look at the letter

04:07and try to get back to your office on where things stand.

04:11Yeah, I'm just telling you,

04:12Congress is way ahead of where ATF is on this,

04:16and that's why I wish you would take a deeper,

04:18kind of longer look at kind of where we're at.

04:22Because otherwise, the input that you would have

04:24is simply not going to be taken seriously

04:27if the statute is written or if the changes are already made.

04:30So I would encourage you to do that.

04:32And I yield back.

04:33Gentlemen, yield.

04:3430 seconds for the gentleman to yield.

04:36Yeah, thank you.

04:37I just, real quick, you mentioned earlier

04:38that we need to be focused on the facts,

04:40particularly relative to the Malinowski case.

04:42I just want to make clear, understand,

04:44are you disputing that the ATF was not,

04:46in Little Rock, Arkansas,

04:48ready to execute a raid on the week before,

04:51on March 12, 2024?

04:53I'm not.

04:54I'm neither disputing...

04:56We saw the video.

04:57We saw the video, right?

04:58There's a lot of...

05:01Again, this is a slippery slope.

05:05I have to abide by our Department of Justice policy.

05:08ATF wasn't in Little Rock the week before?

05:10I'm not saying any of that.

05:11I'm saying that until the investigation is completed,

05:15I am not disputing that fact or any other fact.

05:17I'm trying to counsel,

05:19because I hear a lot of things flying out there.

05:22You said earlier things were stated that were not facts.

05:24I think I have stuck to the facts.

05:26I wasn't focusing on that.

05:27There's been a lot of things said, Congressman.

05:30Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry.

05:30The gentleman from Virginia is recognized.

Scott Fitzgerald Questions ATF Director About Classifications Of Less Lethal Projectile Devices

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