Kate Kennedy, entrepreneur, author and host of "Be There In Five," spoke to Forbes about her new book "One In A Millennial," what lessons are being passed from Millennials to Gen Z about the work force, how technology varies between generations, and what executives need to do to keep their young employees.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello and welcome.
00:04 I'm Sarah Mueller, a reporter with Forbes.
00:07 And today I'm joined by entrepreneur,
00:10 podcast host, best-selling author, Kate Kennedy.
00:14 Thank you so much for joining me, Kate.
00:16 - Thank you for having me.
00:17 I'm so excited to be here.
00:19 - Well, I wanna give a little bit of background
00:21 because not only are you the host of podcast,
00:24 Be There in Five,
00:26 but you also literally wrote the book
00:28 on millennials this year called "One in a Millennial."
00:31 I read it, or I guess listened to it in 24 hours.
00:34 And I want you to know that I am on the cusp
00:37 of being a millennial.
00:38 I'm a zillennial, like I'm a 1996.
00:40 So I was a little worried it wouldn't relate to me,
00:42 but oh my goodness, I kept on saying,
00:45 I was listening to it in my car and I'm thinking,
00:47 yes, yes, thank you, somebody said it.
00:50 So before we get started into like the millennials
00:53 and the workforce,
00:54 which is what I really wanna talk about today,
00:56 let's start with you giving a brief explanation
00:58 about why you wrote this book.
01:00 - Yeah, so as you mentioned,
01:04 I have a podcast, Be There in Five,
01:06 and I've been doing it for six years.
01:07 And over the past six years,
01:09 it's become such a focus group for what women
01:12 in kind of my demo are thinking about or caring about.
01:16 And I kind of have the focus group of a lifetime.
01:18 And I realized that like millennials are such,
01:21 there's such a departure from what we see in headlines
01:25 that we're lazy, entitled, living in our parents' basement.
01:27 No one on the inside identifies with those tropes.
01:30 I think millennials are really misunderstood
01:31 because we grew up in a world that no longer exists.
01:34 And a big part of what I wanted to explore in my book
01:36 was kind of the minutiae and day-to-day and lore
01:39 and nostalgia of being a millennial
01:41 that has nothing to do with the headlines
01:42 about how we killed every major economic sector or industry
01:45 or are these kind of petulant children that never grow up.
01:49 I was like, this is what one millennial's experience
01:52 is like from the inside.
01:53 And that was part of it to provide a more accurate depiction
01:57 of what matters to us.
01:59 But the second piece was kind of more generationally agnostic
02:02 and just themes of girlhood
02:04 and how we go through our millennial existence
02:07 and love all of this pop culture and love the zeitgeist
02:10 and the iconography of a given time.
02:12 But then we're kind of told it's not sophisticated
02:15 or important and we should like certain things
02:17 to be taken seriously, especially as women.
02:19 Women's interests are often mocked and undermined.
02:22 And I kind of wanted to like make it a celebration
02:25 of all of the millennial minutiae like of our lives
02:30 that maybe we wrote off as insignificant
02:33 or memories that we were told we were being dramatic
02:37 and kind of revisit, like I say, be kind and rewind
02:40 and go back through the things that matter to us
02:42 and argue for their importance.
02:44 - There were so many aspects of this book that I loved.
02:48 And as you mentioned, millennials have been blamed
02:50 for destroying cereal and the beer industry
02:54 and the diamond industry and all that.
02:55 So like it kind of is doom and gloom.
02:57 And I also love how you point out that Gen Z is quick
03:00 to make fun of us as well.
03:01 Like this was a quick turnaround
03:03 of the cringe-worthy moments.
03:05 But tell me, is it all doom and gloom for millennials,
03:08 especially in the workforce, especially in the economy?
03:11 - You know, I think what we have to keep in mind
03:14 is every generation's going to, has always, I'm sure,
03:18 and will always have hot takes about the ones ahead of them
03:21 and behind them.
03:22 And I think the wars are a bit overblown for clickbait, one.
03:26 But two, I think that millennials are in a unique position
03:30 because I think we're marked by two things,
03:32 being behind and being the first online.
03:34 And yeah, it is a little weird
03:35 that we built these social networks
03:37 that Gen Z got logged into and made fun of us on
03:40 'cause we were the first people to experiment
03:43 with even creating an online identity.
03:45 And I think that having access at our fingertips
03:48 to the information age created this world
03:51 where it's very different from the one we grew up in.
03:54 We planned our dreams and our lives
03:56 before we had access to all of this information.
03:58 My job didn't exist when I was planning my dreams.
04:00 So I think that millennials seem disconnected
04:02 and a lot of the tropey things about us
04:04 have more to do with growing up
04:05 in a world that no longer exists
04:06 and having all these opportunities
04:10 that came along with the internet,
04:11 which we kind of pioneered with our adolescence.
04:15 And I think that that's created kind of,
04:18 well, there's a lot of different things I could focus on,
04:20 but I think one thing that is so very millennial
04:23 is find a job you love, you'll never work another day.
04:27 There's less of a focus on duty and commitment and loyalty
04:32 because we don't have pensions.
04:33 We don't have the employee benefits
04:36 that warrant that loyalty.
04:37 So you can call us a job hopper all you want,
04:39 but why would I be loyal to a company
04:40 that has no incentive to be loyal to me?
04:43 We graduated during the worst financial crisis
04:45 since the great depression.
04:46 Most millennials' point of entry into the workforce
04:48 was not finding a job, massive layoffs.
04:51 Then there was the boom of the gig economy
04:55 and we could monetize our hobbies.
04:57 We could make ad hoc income.
04:59 We kind of took advantage of opportunities, I think,
05:03 that are unique to our generation
05:04 and paired with us not really having the company loyalty
05:07 or benefits of prior generations.
05:09 I think it makes sense why we come across
05:10 a bit more flaky or job hoppy.
05:12 And it's not all doom and gloom, it's just different.
05:14 And I think different makes people uncomfortable.
05:17 - Absolutely.
05:18 I'm glad you brought up the financial crisis of '08
05:20 because when I talked to my sister who graduated in 2007
05:25 and entered right during that time,
05:27 that was setting the tone for an entire generation
05:32 of how they were going to interact with the workforce.
05:34 And so now that we look at Gen Z,
05:38 especially flipping from what millennials experience
05:42 into Gen Z, what do you think we're maybe passing down
05:46 to the generation below us?
05:48 - I think we created a lot of platforms
05:53 that democratize fame and influence
05:57 that has created a whole new career category
06:00 that is still at a point of nascence
06:03 that I don't even think we know what it looks like long-term.
06:05 I don't know what my own job looks like in 10 years.
06:07 So it's kind of interesting
06:09 where there's never been more opportunities
06:11 at a younger age to go a non-traditional route.
06:14 And I think we pioneered this,
06:18 but I don't know what it looks like now
06:19 if you're in high school and you're like,
06:20 well, I don't wanna go to college,
06:21 I wanna be a YouTube star.
06:23 It's almost like the options are ever expanding
06:26 by nature of the internet and social media.
06:29 I just hope what we pass down is like,
06:34 I think we're all getting older
06:35 and realizing the immortality of the internet.
06:38 So while you may want to be authentic
06:39 when you're 15 online,
06:41 do you really want that immortalized
06:43 and revisiting it when you're in your 40s?
06:45 I don't know.
06:46 I think we, the crew with the point and shoots
06:49 in the frat basements,
06:51 uploading everything we ever did to Facebook,
06:52 had to learn that the hard way.
06:54 - Absolutely.
06:55 And I just wanna piggyback off of that just a second,
06:58 because obviously one of the big things
07:00 that we talk about nowadays
07:01 is what can come back and burn you,
07:03 especially when you are employed
07:06 and maybe what you've done on the internet
07:08 does not align with the company values.
07:10 What do you think is kind of the lesson being learned
07:14 with the immortality of the internet?
07:18 - You know, it's kind of hard to say
07:21 because it's like, it's good that in recent years,
07:25 there's been a pivot to honesty, to authenticity,
07:29 sometimes at the expense of curated vulnerability,
07:31 I'd say.
07:31 But, you know, one of the things
07:33 that was hard about being a millennial is like,
07:35 I don't think we grew up with a lot of tools
07:36 or information about mental health.
07:38 And I think the way we grew up and first used the internet,
07:41 it was all a show, it was all,
07:44 let me show everybody how great I'm doing,
07:45 the goal was like popularity and visibility and brand names
07:48 and uniqueness was not valued in the way it is now.
07:51 And what I hope comes from this shift
07:55 to authenticity over aspiration
07:58 is that at the very least people are out there being honest
08:01 and that'll hopefully stand the test of time,
08:04 even if they change as people.
08:07 I think that we were kind of doing a lot of stuff for show
08:09 or being more snarky for sport,
08:11 thinking it was comedic or sharp,
08:13 but people are just out here being honest
08:16 and sharing about their struggles,
08:18 which is really powerful, especially when you're young.
08:21 So it's like, I would never wanna discourage people
08:23 to do that because I think that's a beautiful part
08:25 about the internet, but no, I don't know how it will feel
08:28 when you have all that still out there later on.
08:31 But I do think this is something Stephanie McNeil,
08:34 a reporter at Glamour told me when she was like,
08:36 it's almost like if everyone's on the internet, nobody is.
08:39 Because we were the first to do it,
08:42 we kind of stand out as these irresponsible people
08:45 with all these crazy Facebook albums titled
08:47 after OTT's top 40 songs.
08:49 But now if everyone's on the internet,
08:51 is anyone really standing out?
08:52 Is everyone gonna have so many problems
08:54 with their past behavior?
08:55 Like, will it really matter?
08:56 Like, I ultimately hope we just accept
08:58 that people are allowed to evolve, honestly.
09:01 - I love in the book, you describe kind
09:03 of the technological advancements as yes,
09:06 millennials grew up with the internet,
09:09 but we grew up with a clunky version of the internet.
09:11 Whereas, you know, Gen Z kind of got a more polished version.
09:16 How do you think that differentiates Gen Z from millennials,
09:20 especially in the eyes of maybe an employer or skill sets?
09:24 - Okay, I think we are so resourceful and scrappy
09:28 because of the character building.
09:30 Like, I think the millennial, you know,
09:31 in my day, I walked miles in the snow,
09:33 is like, your skin just gets tougher
09:35 when a CD takes eight hours to buffer.
09:37 Like, the way we waited full work days
09:41 to burn one playlist,
09:44 it really is a level of character building.
09:45 The streamers will simply never understand
09:47 that I think we should be really proud of ourselves for.
09:50 And I think that Gen Z can be critical of millennials
09:54 in terms of like, you know, we like taking Buzzfeed quizzes
09:56 or saying what our Hogwarts house is,
09:58 or we like personality type stuff that groups us
10:01 and puts us in boxes.
10:02 But I think a lot of times our pop cultural obsession
10:05 stem from that time period where we had to be so devoted
10:08 to the things we like to enjoy them, not live.
10:12 So whether it was taping shows on VHS
10:14 and going out of our way,
10:15 sitting there waiting for that CD to buffer,
10:18 going, you know, through great lengths
10:19 to curate the perfect songs on an iPod to play at a party,
10:22 like, the less options you have,
10:25 the more creative you are in pursuing those interests.
10:28 So I think a lot of the reason
10:29 I have such strong pop cultural memories
10:31 is because the difficulty of access,
10:33 like going to a blockbuster with a sleepover crew in tow
10:36 and trying to achieve consensus in the new release VHS aisle,
10:40 it was a rite of passage.
10:41 It was not pretty.
10:42 It was Real Housewives knock down drag out.
10:44 But eventually we had to figure it out.
10:46 Now you can just stream whatever the hell it is you like.
10:48 People can go in different rooms.
10:49 We had to problem solve,
10:50 and I think we're resourceful for it.
10:53 - I have to ask you because TikTok
10:54 is such a massive conversation right now,
10:56 especially facing a ban.
10:58 What do you see the future of technology being
11:01 if this is how we're gonna move forward
11:04 with regulations facing social media
11:07 as the generation who,
11:08 we didn't have much restrictions on anything.
11:11 I mean, community guidelines, who?
11:14 But what do you think the future of,
11:16 especially the creator economy,
11:17 as we look down the line here with TikTok
11:20 possibly being removed from the United States?
11:25 - You know, TikTok for me personally would be such a loss.
11:28 I think that it is the first platform
11:32 that was content focused and not people focused.
11:37 So you're following what people think and what they say.
11:41 You don't have to know about a person and follow them
11:43 to have access to those things they think and say.
11:46 And I think that the world changed a lot
11:48 in having that content pushed out to us over the years,
11:52 especially during such a critical time like the pandemic.
11:55 Going forward, at least from the creator side,
11:57 so I think it's net positive largely on the consumer side.
12:02 On the creator side, I think the volatility of TikTok
12:07 in terms of us not really ever knowing
12:09 if the ban's actually gonna go through
12:11 and it being on the floor so many times,
12:13 is people are going to,
12:15 creators are going to flock to mediums
12:17 where they have ownership over their content,
12:19 over their audience,
12:21 and where they don't have to rely on the whims
12:23 of a platform's algorithm to perform and thus get paid.
12:28 So a big reason why I've doubled down on my podcast
12:32 or people start newsletters is you want
12:35 to own your audience,
12:35 you wanna have access to your audience
12:37 even if it's the third party folds.
12:38 And I think the algorithmic changes
12:40 a lot of these platforms have exhibited
12:43 in recent years are so unfavorable to the creators
12:45 that are the backbone of their business model
12:47 that it's kind of disheartening.
12:49 So I feel two ways.
12:50 I think there need to be a lot of changes
12:52 as a creator to feel fairly compensated
12:54 and feel supported by these algorithms.
12:56 And I think as a consumer,
12:57 the democratization of ideas is ultimately a positive thing.
13:00 - You know, your journey, as I read in the book,
13:04 was very unique as how you got here in your career.
13:08 You kind of started in corporate America, if I'm correct,
13:11 and then you moved on and decided to do a doormat business,
13:16 if I'm correct.
13:16 And then obviously opportunities sprouted from there.
13:20 You've had an untraditional route.
13:22 And earlier in this conversation,
13:23 we talked a little bit about millennials wanting to,
13:26 or even Gen Z wanting to create
13:29 or monetize off of their hobbies.
13:32 And so as we watch a lot of businesses try
13:35 and negotiate ways to work with creators,
13:39 whether that's social media creators,
13:41 whether that's streaming creators or podcast creators,
13:46 what do you have to say to those corporations
13:49 or businesses or executives about working with creators
13:52 in the creator economy?
13:54 - I think that anytime I've done brand deals
14:00 or worked with companies,
14:03 I've always felt like they need to trust the creators more,
14:06 that they know their audience
14:07 and they can make content that's suitable for their audience.
14:09 And I think that creatively,
14:13 brands get in their own way,
14:14 demanding something falls within the parameters
14:17 of a certain scope of work or a certain project.
14:20 And it completely flops
14:21 because it's not authentic to the creator.
14:24 Like you have to leverage why people love
14:26 and follow that person
14:28 and kind of abandon your blanket messaging for the campaign,
14:31 I think, to make a really successful
14:33 influencer marketing campaign.
14:35 And I think that like,
14:36 we've seen a lot of the very millennial D to C companies
14:39 really support nontraditional mediums like podcasting
14:42 or like influencers and get really creative
14:44 with their ads.
14:45 But I think some of the bigger brands,
14:46 the bigger CPG companies,
14:47 like the heavy hitters in the TV and radio
14:50 and online ad world are hesitant
14:52 to kind of take the red tape down
14:55 to not be optimizing everything cross campaign,
14:58 cross platform so much.
15:00 And I just really think they need to be comfortable
15:03 trusting their creators a bit more
15:04 because it shows if you have fun with it.
15:06 And I don't know,
15:07 I think the ads can be a little bit Dale and stringent
15:10 if they aren't true to the creator's voice.
15:14 - Now, we talked about this a little bit earlier
15:16 in the conversation as well,
15:17 which is that, how do you get an employee,
15:21 especially around our age to stay loyal to a company?
15:24 I've worked for companies where people will stay there
15:27 for 20 years,
15:28 almost their whole career sometimes.
15:31 And so what is your message to executives
15:34 who are looking to keep employees who are our age
15:37 or Gen Z for more than just two to three years?
15:43 - You know, I think for the brilliant work
15:46 of Anne Helen Peterson,
15:47 millennial burnout is very, very real.
15:49 And we kind of entered the workforce in a time
15:51 that's like, you're lucky to have a job,
15:52 you're lucky to be here.
15:54 And I think that we worked many years
15:56 kind of exhaustively trying to make up for that time
15:58 that many of us were very affected by the economic changes
16:01 and or if you monetize one of your passions,
16:05 there's a level of burnout where
16:07 I think the most attractive thing now
16:09 to a lot of millennials is to be treated as a whole person,
16:12 to not be a workhorse, to not just be an employee,
16:15 but things like paid family leave,
16:18 encouraging people to take their vacation days,
16:20 like allowing people to go offline at night.
16:22 These are things that should be the norm,
16:24 but I think in rise and grind,
16:26 like hustle, girl boss America,
16:28 we all got very distorted
16:30 and what it means to work hard and be loyal.
16:33 And I think that the ultimate display of like,
16:35 I value you as an employee is saying,
16:38 I see you as a whole person who needs a balanced life.
16:41 And that's ultimately what will make you show up
16:43 as your best self to work.
16:44 Do I think that's realistic?
16:45 Probably not.
16:46 But I do think that there's an ethical way
16:48 we can do this under capitalism.
16:49 And some companies are really getting it right.
16:53 And as a new mom, especially,
16:54 I just so see the value of paid leave
16:56 and wish that was a more regular thing
16:59 happening in this country.
17:01 - Now, before I let you go,
17:02 I wanna flip the script a little bit.
17:04 What is the one thing you want millennials
17:07 or even Gen Z to take out of your book,
17:10 a one in a millennial?
17:11 - I kind of end the book,
17:14 in the book I talk about something called
17:15 the love marriage baby carriage pipeline.
17:16 And this is maybe more specific to women
17:18 than millennials overall.
17:20 But I think we're talked to our whole lives,
17:23 young women are like about who you'll marry
17:26 and about having kids
17:26 and about nothing to do with your identity.
17:28 These are things that involve who you are to somebody else.
17:32 And I kind of end the book by saying like,
17:35 who you are as one millennial without a plus ahead of it,
17:38 or just you on your own as one millennial are enough.
17:43 Because we really like think we can gamify life
17:47 and have it be formulaic.
17:49 And I think we grew up thinking,
17:51 okay, I'll get this job and then I'll get married
17:53 and I'll have kids.
17:54 And then you've realized that these are all functions
17:56 of your choices and chances
17:58 and we can't control these things.
17:59 Yet we often feel such shame for when we,
18:02 life hasn't turned out exactly as we expected.
18:04 And I wanted people to go easy on themselves,
18:06 understanding what the pop cultural backdrop was,
18:09 what roadblocks millennials have been up against
18:11 and all of these different things that like,
18:13 you should leverage to go easier on yourself
18:15 because a lot of the reasons
18:16 we're a little bit behind relative to other generations,
18:19 whether it's in childbearing
18:20 and average age of marriage or in wealth building,
18:25 there are good reasons for it.
18:26 We're not lazy and entitled and terrible,
18:29 we're just a product of our time.
18:31 And I wanted people to be proud of who they were
18:33 and how far they've come independent
18:35 of who they are to somebody else.
18:37 - Kate Kennedy, thank you so much for your time.
18:39 I appreciate it.
18:41 - Thank you, this was so fun.
18:42 (upbeat music)
18:45 (upbeat music)
18:47 [BLANK_AUDIO]