Will Trump's Hush Money Trial Jury Believe Michael Cohen's Testimony

Forbes

On "Forbes Talks," attorney John M. Phillips joined Forbes Senior Law Editor, Liane Jackson, to discuss former President Trump's NYC hush money trial, the Trump team's approach to Michael Cohen, the cases he is working on, and more.  0:00 Introduction 2:05 What's The Next Step Of The Trial? 6:25 Is This Hurting Trump's Re-election Chances Or Helping? 11:01 Good vs. Evil 12:25 The Media's Perception Of High Profile Cases 18:48 How Will The Tides Of This Trump Case Turn? 22:22 Trump's Tactics To Change Public Opinion  Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1  Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:  https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript  Stay Connected Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com  Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.

Transcript

00:00Hello, I'm Leanne Jackson, senior law editor at Forbes, and today I am joined by John Phillips.

00:07He's a Jacksonville attorney who has come to speak with me about the biggest cases he's

00:12working on and also the Trump trial, which is going on currently here in New York City.

00:16Now, John does civil rights law, criminal defense, as well as plaintiffs work in Jacksonville

00:21handling some really big cases.

00:23He also handled a case with Omarosa, who Trump had sued her for violation of a nondisclosure.

00:30That was a few years ago.

00:32Thank you for joining me, John.

00:33My pleasure.

00:34What a great space.

00:35Thanks.

00:36Great to have you in studio.

00:37I know we've talked to you before.

00:38You're a great guest.

00:39And I did want to talk to you because, of course, the case du jour that everyone's talking

00:43about, the unprecedented case against the president of the United States, the criminal

00:47hush money trial that's happening in Manhattan court here.

00:50Now, Michael Cohen, the star witness for the prosecution, has been testifying.

00:55I believe the he's been cross-examined today, if I'm not incorrect.

00:59How do you think that's been going in terms of the prosecution's case in chief and how

01:03he's presented himself?

01:04I think they had a road map in there.

01:08They're moving down the road map.

01:10I think they're doing a good job.

01:14It's tough with a case like that because it's, you know, you have all these sensational facts.

01:20You have hush money to a stripper, you know, basically.

01:25And it has all these side issues that have to tie into campaign finance laws.

01:35And they're doing a good job kind of keeping enough sensation in there that, you know,

01:44it's part of the facts.

01:45You can't separate it while sticking to, you know, the core issues and what Michael Cohen

01:51did.

01:52Now, again, Michael was a part of all of this, you know, and Michael would love to say me

02:00a culpa.

02:01That's the old me.

02:02But, you know, I've talked to Michael and he's a he's an interesting guy.

02:05Yeah.

02:06And that's part of the issue for the prosecution and what the opening that the defense is trying

02:10to take is that this is a convicted liar.

02:13He's perjured himself.

02:14You can't trust this witness.

02:16However, he is crucial to the building blocks, as you mentioned, of the prosecution's case

02:21from what the media isn't allowed in the courtroom.

02:24But a lot of the observers have said he's tried to stick to just the facts.

02:28What do you think, especially as a experienced defense attorney yourself, a litigator?

02:33How crucial is it that witnesses be credible and how do you cross that nexus when they

02:40may not be?

02:41Well, yeah.

02:42You know, it's coming during cross examination.

02:44You know, they're going to get to the credibility issues to tear apart your your witness, take

02:48their legs off.

02:49And I know the strategy here and I've seen part of it is is to kind of get get to the

02:57core of what his testimony is, get to the good parts and then at some point say, oh,

03:03yeah.

03:04And by the way, you've you've perjured yourself, you've you've you've been convicted for being

03:09a liar.

03:12Are you lying today?

03:13And you've you've got to work that in.

03:17Lawyers greater than than me, you know, older than me called it embracing the horror.

03:22Right.

03:23You've you've got to you've got to deal with the bad facts of your case.

03:27And Cohen brings that he was, you know, the bag man for the for for Donald Trump.

03:34But because of the nature of this case and it having, you know, the core witnesses having,

03:45you know, past backgrounds, backgrounds, backgrounds that are that are that are less than what

03:51you normally see in federal court, stellar.

03:54Right.

03:55I think people understand.

03:56And in that's part and parcel with the case.

04:00Right.

04:01These were these were the people that that Donald Trump chose, right.

04:05They chose Michael Cohen.

04:07He chose Stormy Daniels.

04:10He chose Omarosa.

04:11Right.

04:12Over and over and over again.

04:14And some have criticized even within his inner circle about like, wait, why do you why do

04:19you keep these people around?

04:22And I think there's just there was some kind of mutually symbiotic thing that that he found

04:30on people that that needed him.

04:35It's it kind of fed his narcissistic edge, I think, and worked potentially for his business

04:42interest in some way that the prosecution, at least, is trying to create a nexus for.

04:48And what's interesting about Michael Cohen's testimony as well is that it does come down

04:53to a little bit of he said, she said there's no hard documentation that can tie the case

04:59for the prosecution to Donald Trump to elevate it from misdemeanor financial crimes to the

05:04felonies. It's a 34 count indictment that they're trying to bring together.

05:09So what what do you think we're going to let you speculate, use your ESP to kind of your

05:15psychic ball to see if this is going to play with the jury, let alone the court of public

05:20opinion?

05:21I mean, the court of public opinion is is is so polarized and kind of separate here.

05:29It's going to play to the people that want to hear it and it's going to be, you know,

05:35witch hunt to those that don't the core middle that that tends to decide elections, that

05:41tends to to to go along with the flow until they have to, you know, choose a hard path.

05:49I I think they need to take a real stern look at this.

05:53And and again, this is this is the president of the United States getting to some extent

06:03recorded by his own lawyer trying to weaponize media to to put a hush on and a non

06:17disparage and nondisclosure on on somebody you had a sexual relationship with.

06:23There's no dispute of that part.

06:25Well, he has claimed he has.

06:27But I think anybody that knows Donald knows, you know, that's that's that's the least

06:36credible of his lies.

06:37You know, I think everybody understands that he considers himself a ladies man.

06:45But it's it's fascinating to watch.

06:48But it's also, you know, again, I was I was in it.

06:52I was in that circle for a few years and it and it it's filthy, you know, and he was

07:02the one deposition that I didn't get.

07:05We tried, you know, I wanted his deposition so bad and we tried every which way we could.

07:13But but just to sit across from somebody like that and get into their head for a little

07:19bit, you know, it's probably the one thing I've missed thus far in my career.

07:25We didn't need it. You know, you ultimately recovered.

07:29Right. Three million.

07:30He's he's a fascinating character in American history just because he's he's to me so

07:37unlikable. Well, to pivot a little bit from Trump's trial, because this this is the first

07:42of his several criminal cases.

07:44And what's interesting also is that some people say this one is the least of his

07:49problems, but the others have been delayed.

07:50So we'll see what happens with this case.

07:52But to the point of you having litigated against Trump and his defense team in the

07:59nondisclosure dispute with Omarosa, for which you were awarded one point three million

08:03dollars in damages and a judgment having to you.

08:08Then subsequently you were in the news, national news because of this case.

08:12What is important for other lawyers to know, like when you get propelled into the into

08:17publicity like this, to be media savvy as a lawyer?

08:19What does that mean? And to help to help your case or potentially hurt it?

08:22Yeah, it's in no offense.

08:24You've got to you've got to treat media with with kind of healthy apprehension.

08:28Right. They have a story to tell.

08:31But so do you.

08:33In most of my cases, if not nearly all of my cases, I look for ways outside of a

08:40courtroom to tell a story.

08:43My office even trademarked public display of justice.

08:46Right. Because, you know, the way I say it in conference rooms with clients is, you

08:53know, justice is spelled one way.

08:54It's defined many different ways.

08:57For Omarosa's case, you know, certainly there was her getting weaponized, you know,

09:03having litigation weaponized against her, seeking millions of dollars.

09:08But it also it also because of the non disparage aspect sought to to keep her from

09:14saying a single negative thing while he ran for reelection.

09:18And and you've got to take cases piecemeal, you know, and in part of it was coaching

09:25Omarosa when to speak.

09:26And that didn't take much.

09:28Right. She knows.

09:30But, you know, lawyers have have an inherent distrust in the media.

09:36And certainly there's the rule in nearly every state that that prohibits us from jury

09:42tampering through the media, right, or spoiling the ability for a either side to get a

09:49fair trial. But that requires a jury trial to be set.

09:54That requires something in the future that doesn't prevent interviews.

10:00It doesn't prevent press conferences.

10:03You know, the media has always been, you know, great for me in my cases, you know, and

10:12it's it's something that that can really help a lawyer.

10:16You it's a tool in the trade that, you know, that that you need.

10:23Certainly there's there's certain trademark copyright lawyers, you know, corporate

10:29lawyers that want no part of it.

10:31I understand that.

10:33But for the for the litigator to be afraid of the media is it can deprive justice to

10:42your client because there is the the court of public opinion, as you brought up, that

10:47really is important.

10:48And sometimes depending if it's a criminal defense case, a lot of times the prosecutors

10:52are able to say so many things.

10:53The police are able to go out there and say things.

10:55Right. You have to be able to try to work, find a way to also get your side across.

11:00Yeah. And in some of our cases, you know, there is a perception of good versus evil

11:07or right versus wrong.

11:09And I have in my career allowed the other side, you know, too much oxygen because

11:17typically they were on they had a separate criminal trial.

11:20And the last thing I want to do is as the civil lawyer, YNW Malley, for instance, I

11:26represent one of the the victims of of that were in the car with YNW Malley, who who

11:33he's accused of murdering two of his friends.

11:36Can you describe a little bit more about that?

11:37Yeah. Yeah. So so so the rapper YNW Malley, his name's Jamal Demmons, he was leaving a

11:44studio with with two of his best friends.

11:47I mean, core since they were eight years old and they wind up wound up shot and killed

11:55inside the car.

11:57The evidence pinpoints Demmons leaving the scene of the accident with another rapper.

12:03And he claims he was never there.

12:05And so they tried the case there.

12:08The state of Florida is actually seeking the death penalty.

12:11They mistried it. So they need 12 jurors in a death penalty case to to convict.

12:16They mistried it. I think there were two jurors that that held out.

12:20And this is a case you feel like you could have done something differently with the media.

12:24Yeah, I think I think I and again, it gets into the nature of the media.

12:30I think that there are times that you don't want to interfere with a criminal case.

12:37But on the same token, you know, in that particular case, there's there was there's gang

12:43associations. And, you know, as a lawyer, you can actually wind up in fear yourself.

12:48Right. But there's there's a very clear narrative that outlines how I believe he killed

12:59these two boys. I was complicit in their killing.

13:04And you represented one of the I represent one of the victims.

13:06And our civil trial won't go until after the criminal trial.

13:10So by the time I tell my story, it's over.

13:13You know, kind of O.J.

13:14Simpson logic. By the time Ron Goldman got to got to found and find O.J.

13:19guilty of wrongful death, the criminal trial is already over.

13:22He's been acquitted. And that is the ultimate measure family family wants to see.

13:26They want to see their their killer convicted.

13:29They want justice. Right.

13:31They don't want the wrong. They don't want a wrongful conviction.

13:34But it was a case that that, you know, I did regret on on kind of the post post-criminal

13:43trial that that state attorney team didn't have our information.

13:52Right. And I've got to do a better job to convey that information and whether that's, you

13:59know, sending emails that are public records or doing doing, you know, press conferences or or

14:05press releases.

14:06You know, it's again, it goes back to to all of the tools a lawyer needs to be able to

14:12litigate these high profile cases.

14:15That makes sense. And speaking of high profile cases, you were mentioning some other

14:20others that you're involved with that you Dollar General.

14:22Right. Can you tell us a little bit more about what's going on with that?

14:25Right. Last year, a white male named we don't we don't use his name, went into a Dollar

14:36General store in Jacksonville, Florida, and and and particularly targeted African-Americans

14:43shot and killed three African-Americans would have would have killed a store full had had he

14:47had he gotten there. And after police came into the building, he he killed

14:55himself. So so, you know, the criminal case, as it were, did not cleared by suicide.

15:01Right. So so the family can't get that measure of justice.

15:05And, you know, certainly there's a there's a negligent security case.

15:10And there's there's there's a lawsuit you could file, for instance, against wrong against

15:16Dollar General. OK, that's fine.

15:17Right. That's a measure of justice.

15:20But Ryan, the the shooter, was was one of these guys who who wrote a manifesto.

15:33And I don't even like giving these guys credit for a manifesto because that assumes a

15:39level of intelligence and and and and desire to get over an agenda when most of these

15:46manifestos are plagiarized from the prior manifesto.

15:49But, you know, in reading the manifesto and in recognizing the plagiarism within it and

15:58the concept. So excuse me for for saying it, but the concept repeatedly in that manifesto

16:05and other manifestos is total inward death.

16:09Right. Here's a here's a stupid white male who feels that African-Americans have so much

16:18power, right, that that he needs to annihilate them.

16:24I guess he didn't understand the history of this country that I understand that that's

16:30never been the case.

16:32But it you have to where America has gotten it really wrong is we just let them go.

16:41We just let it be cleared by suicide.

16:43And there's there's entire Internet databases, dark web areas where these ideologies

16:52are communicated.

16:54And with President Trump, with with with with the insurrection, we've actually made it

17:02mainstream rights to be to be separatist and to be and to express them out loud.

17:08Right. Right. It's OK to to be vocal about it.

17:10And there's a particular scene from from from last year's or last term's reelection bid

17:17by Trump where he went into this this this gun store called Palmetto State Armory and

17:24they made a gun for President Trump.

17:27Now, he's an indicted felon.

17:29He can't own a gun.

17:32And and they kind of say, oh, we got you this gun.

17:35And then everybody's like, wait, no.

17:37Oops. And they watched it from the Internet.

17:41Palmetto State Armory is is this this gun store slash manufacturer in South Carolina that

17:47creates AR-15s and literally etches separatist ideology in their gun parts.

17:56Build a wall. Bugaloo Boys references.

18:00OK, Karen.

18:02Things that that some could just say, oh, that's just free speech.

18:07That's that's just marketing gimmicks.

18:10But the problem is it wasn't to Ryan.

18:14Right. He custom ordered a gun to be delivered to Florida from that particular store.

18:21And we're in a dangerous, dangerous world where we're going to justify First Amendment and

18:28Second Amendment correlation when what we're doing is armoring arming people that have

18:36it in the inability to know right from wrong.

18:40And why should they?

18:41Because the president is espousing it.

18:44So you're you're pursuing a novel approach in your lawsuit against the armory.

18:48Yeah. Under Florida law, you can do what's called a pure bill of discovery.

18:52So you can sue somebody for information before you sue them for damages.

18:56And we want to open up this gun store.

18:59We also want to open up some of the some of the social media databases and really get to

19:05the core of of how this information is shared, because you can't you can't literally

19:13supply a gun to somebody who was so bent on T&D, total destruction of a race, and and

19:26just say, OK, that was just a joke.

19:28Right. And you can't profit off of like like 4chan type type databases.

19:34You can't profit off of social media, you know, warehouses and allow people to say

19:40whatever they want and just just kind of walk away and say, well, that was fun.

19:45So you're in the discovery phase to find out what they knew and the level of information.

19:49You know, with with all of our cases and again, it's use of media, it's use of the

19:53criminal system. It's it's it's certainly involves settlements.

19:57Right. But justice has to be spelled with with more than a jury's verdict.

20:04And and if we think that that we're just going to not have any more, you know, mass

20:12shooters and any more manifestos and any more race based killings, just wait a week.

20:19It's going to happen. And and, you know, JSO, Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and the FBI,

20:27they don't they don't have a they have victims, but they don't they don't have a

20:31perp, you know, that it's cleared.

20:33The case is cleared. So, you know, a lawyer's obligation is to do more to better the law

20:41and to better justice after you.

20:44And that's one of the things we take pretty seriously.

20:48That's really a fascinating case.

20:49It'll be interesting to see how that turns out very quickly.

20:53Are there any other cases that you wanted to speak about?

20:56I think we have a few minutes. Yeah.

20:57I mean, you know, it's always an interesting, you know, month at the at the firm.

21:04There's there's all in so many of our cases involve incredible violence.

21:13Right. And like, you know, there's there's a young girl named Madison who was had a had a

21:23boyfriend. Madison just turned 18.

21:25She was 17 at the time, had an 18 year old boyfriend.

21:29And the boyfriend just just couldn't get over being broken up with.

21:35And like a lot of teenage girls in 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s deal with that stalker ex

21:42boyfriend. Right.

21:44And it's, again, like like a lot of incidents.

21:46It's not a problem until it is.

21:48And he he wound up stabbing her to to the point of paralysis.

21:54And her mother was there and her mother got stabbed in the head.

21:57And and it's going to jury trial in July.

22:01And then we're going to pick up from there.

22:03But it's it's, you know, God bless.

22:07God bless girls like Madison, who's who's going to college this semester.

22:11And she's going to start talking about about healthy relationships.

22:15Right. There's got to be a butterfly effect that comes from from opportunities in life

22:21and from from tragedy.

22:23And I know you've said in the past, like, not all of these cases are you going to be

22:26able to recover. You know, sometimes it is just putting it out there, putting it on the

22:30board, so to speak, getting the case in the public eye in order to try to change the

22:36narrative. Well, and I did defense work for for about a decade.

22:40And and I know what then still to this day, to some extent, what jury verdict reporters

22:48and computers said cases are worth.

22:51Right. And I faced it in in, you know, Jordan Davis's case and Brandon Green's case.

22:58You know, a young black life isn't worth as much on the data as as a as a older white

23:08male or white female.

23:10And that is absolutely wrong.

23:13The loss to the parents is the same.

23:16The loss to their children is the same.

23:20And and, you know, we'll go try cases if if, you know, we can't do too many per year.

23:27But we try to try a case or two per year that are just focused on showing that juries

23:34aren't beholden to jury verdict reporters and and and bad computer data.

23:42Well, it's it's important work.

23:44It's interesting work.

23:46It's also very tragic work.

23:48I really appreciate you joining us.

23:50Congratulations again on being America's top 200 attorneys.

23:53It's very clear you deserved this honor.

23:55And I, again, will hope to speak to you soon about some of the cases that are in the news

24:00and about what you're working on as well.

24:01Awesome. Thank you so much.

24:02I really appreciate your time, John.

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