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00:00 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:03 I'm joined by Chef Rodney Wages.
00:12 Hi, Rodney.
00:12 How are you?
00:13 I'm good.
00:14 Thank you for having me.
00:15 How are you?
00:16 Good, yeah.
00:17 Thanks for coming on.
00:19 So we're going to chat about everything that's
00:21 happening in your world just now, which I'm excited to find out
00:24 more about.
00:24 But for anyone that doesn't know you
00:26 and doesn't know about your career to date,
00:29 could you just tell me a little bit about how
00:31 you got into becoming a chef?
00:34 Well, my culinary background started about 25 years ago.
00:42 I was watching TV with my dad late night,
00:43 and we stumbled upon an infomercial late night
00:47 for Le Cordon Bleu, a culinary school close by my hometown.
00:53 And I just wrote the number down the next morning I called
00:56 and set up a tour.
00:58 And then basically, the next semester,
01:00 I started in culinary school right away.
01:03 A young age-- I think I was 17 years old when I moved up
01:06 to Minnesota.
01:07 So I've kind of known from a young age
01:09 that I was going to be a chef.
01:10 And kind of there, that piece of the puzzle
01:13 kind of took my career to another place
01:17 as soon as I started meeting other chefs in the industry
01:19 and getting myself into the kitchen
01:22 and really finding that it was something I really enjoyed.
01:26 And is it something that was in your background at all,
01:29 like from your family?
01:30 Or was it just something quite new to your family
01:32 for you to get into being a chef?
01:35 No, I'm the first chef in the family.
01:38 My mom was a carpenter, and my dad was a mechanic
01:40 when I was growing up.
01:42 So similar idea, working with your hands idea,
01:44 but definitely not in the hospitality side of business.
01:51 And so your restaurant in San Francisco, Avery,
01:54 you had a Michelin star.
01:56 Was that something that you set out to do,
01:59 or how did you get to that point?
02:02 So I think it's kind of a complicated direction of all
02:07 of these things that happened throughout my career.
02:09 And all the people that I ran into and introducing me to--
02:15 the gentleman in Minnesota when I went to culinary school
02:17 introduced me to the French Laundry.
02:19 He worked there for many years, and he was like,
02:22 you belong there.
02:22 This is who you are.
02:24 It's going to kickstart your career
02:25 and get you in the right path.
02:26 And at that time, I had no idea who Thomas Keller was
02:29 or the French Laundry.
02:31 So I was like, yeah, let's do it.
02:32 Let's move to California.
02:33 Let's see what it's all about.
02:35 And that really kickstarted my drive and my passion
02:41 for creating these experiences that we have at Avery.
02:45 So French Laundry, every night we
02:47 would sit down and write a menu, what's coming in season,
02:51 following along with the seasons as well.
02:53 So it's kind of teaching you how to be a chef
02:55 and create an experience for guests
02:57 instead of just creating a meal, which I think--
03:00 being a chef, I think there's two different ways you can go.
03:03 Or you make good, delicious food,
03:05 or you create a different experience.
03:09 And for anyone that doesn't know,
03:10 can you tell us about your journey to Edinburgh?
03:13 So you've had a restaurant in San Francisco, Michelin Star,
03:15 and you're now opening in Edinburgh.
03:17 But what happened for that to be the case?
03:23 Well, I think it's a sweet story.
03:27 So my wife and I, we were talking a lot as a family.
03:32 Like, where do we see ourself in the next five years?
03:36 Do we see ourselves staying in San Francisco?
03:38 And at the point, I think San Francisco
03:40 was kind of having a hard time.
03:41 And everywhere that we put on the table to move in America,
03:46 I was kind of like, well, maybe not.
03:48 And then I said, well, why don't we look at the UK?
03:51 Maybe we can look at London or closer
03:54 to her hometown in Manchester or even up here.
03:59 So we set out on a little vacation.
04:01 And we set some time aside to kind of do a road trip
04:03 from London all the way to Edinburgh.
04:07 The bulk of the trip we actually spent in Edinburgh as well.
04:10 It was the summer of 2022.
04:12 And then we went to a couple of restaurants.
04:14 And I was like, you know, this is really great.
04:16 It was summertime in Edinburgh.
04:17 So it's like a lot of things happening
04:20 and kind of exciting.
04:23 And then she found out she was pregnant while she was here.
04:26 So it kind of connected us that way.
04:28 And I think raising a child in San Francisco
04:34 or raising a child in Edinburgh is completely different.
04:37 So it's more of a--
04:40 it was a combination of culinary as well as having a family
04:44 and being able to support the family
04:47 and have a little bit more time with them.
04:50 San Francisco was kind of a grind.
04:52 It was spending an hour and a half to two hours a day
04:55 in the car, driving in and out of the city,
04:58 just the hustle of how many restaurants were there as well.
05:01 I think it was just kind of draining on the creative side.
05:05 And also physically, it was just a little bit too hard
05:09 to kind of maintain and have a good work-life balance
05:13 and being with the family.
05:16 So your wife is from Manchester.
05:17 You do have a sort of tie to the UK.
05:19 So yeah, she was raised in Cheshire.
05:26 So every time I say Manchester, she's
05:27 like, I'm not from Manchester.
05:30 But I mean, I think it's kind of funny.
05:33 I'm still learning my accents in my little areas
05:37 in the UK and Scotland.
05:38 So still learning.
05:41 But yeah, I think that opened the door for us
05:43 to kind of get out of America and kind of experience
05:45 something different.
05:47 She's never really-- she's never lived in Edinburgh or Scotland.
05:51 So this was kind of a new adventure for her as well.
05:55 And we ended up coming back maybe four or five times
05:57 before we actually moved full time to Edinburgh too.
06:02 So it was kind of like we were talking about it,
06:05 and then a year and a half goes by.
06:07 And then things started kind of putting puzzle pieces together.
06:09 And then last year, in 2023, we decided
06:14 to set aside three months after Esme was born to come to Edinburgh
06:19 and just kind of stay for the summer and start working
06:22 on the project and kind of see if this was somewhere we really
06:24 wanted to live.
06:26 And it was just amazing.
06:28 All the chefs were really excited.
06:30 I was introduced to the chef at Lalique, Chef Mark.
06:36 And he introduced me to a couple other people that
06:39 were really kind of influential in making sure
06:41 we were successful through the transition of moving here,
06:45 like introducing purveyors and all those things.
06:48 So it's kind of really refreshing
06:49 having all these chefs being like, OK, yeah,
06:52 let me know if I can help.
06:54 I can come and help you prep, or I'll
06:56 introduce you to my game keeper, or all the purveyors
07:02 and all those things.
07:03 Everybody was super excited, which
07:07 was not really common in San Francisco.
07:10 When I was opening the Avery in San Francisco,
07:14 it was a little bit more cutthroat kind of experience
07:17 when we were going through that opening.
07:19 And people weren't really--
07:21 they were kind of being like, oh, you figure it out.
07:23 I had to figure it out myself, too.
07:25 So it was kind of refreshing to kind of see the chefs
07:27 and how excited they were, even to the point
07:32 where the chefs introduced me to Jason, who
07:35 was the owner of the Stockbridge restaurant, who
07:37 we ended up taking over.
07:38 So I think it's really cool to see how tight the community is
07:42 in Edinburgh with the chefs and how helpful everybody is.
07:47 Yeah, that's really nice.
07:49 That kind of takes me on to my next question.
07:50 So you'd already decided to move to Edinburgh
07:52 and were making the move when you found out
07:55 the Stockbridge restaurant was up for sale, up for lease.
07:58 So you decided to do it first rather than you
08:01 saw the restaurant first.
08:02 Is that right?
08:04 Yeah, so we, as a bigger project,
08:08 we were thinking about coming in and doing maybe more hotel
08:13 or kind of thing with a small restaurant attached to it.
08:17 So we were looking at properties that
08:19 had a couple of rooms and a restaurant availability.
08:22 And then we went into this candle shop over in Stockbridge.
08:27 And we were just kind of talking with the woman.
08:29 We bought a couple things for Esme and some candles and things.
08:32 She's like, oh, you should talk to the owners of Stockbridge
08:35 restaurant.
08:36 I think their lease is coming up.
08:37 And then I ended up messaging some chefs and like, hey,
08:41 can you introduce me to Jason?
08:42 So we went to dinner that night.
08:44 And then my wife and I were both sitting there.
08:46 And we were like, this really reminds me of Avery.
08:48 I think having small, intimate experiences is what Avery was.
08:54 And I think it gave us a platform
08:57 to be able to showcase who Avery is without doing a lot of work.
09:04 So I think it was kind of drawn to us in a magical way of we
09:10 belong.
09:11 It was like all the things were connecting.
09:13 All the dots were connecting for us.
09:15 We were finding the restaurant, finding the apartment,
09:17 all the pieces.
09:19 There was nothing really saying like, oh, no,
09:21 we shouldn't move to Edinburgh.
09:23 So it was kind of fun, kind of interesting to be honest.
09:26 - And was it quite difficult to close in San Francisco
09:30 and make the transition?
09:31 Or were you quite excited to do it?
09:32 - I mean, it's definitely--
09:36 San Francisco, it's definitely--
09:40 it wasn't easy to close.
09:43 But I think it was a necessary step for my career
09:47 and also for my family that I think
09:49 it's kind of one of those things we just rip off the Band-Aid.
09:51 And you're going to survive.
09:54 It's going to happen.
09:55 And kind of moving with what life throws at you, I think,
10:01 is what my mentality is with everything.
10:03 So I think in San Francisco, it had the stepping stones for us
10:06 to be able to do this and take on this opportunity.
10:09 And I think that's huge for Avery's brand
10:16 to have the first step in San Francisco.
10:19 But I think in closing, it was kind of bittersweet.
10:21 I remember locking the door for the last time.
10:23 And I was just like, you know what?
10:24 It was a good run.
10:26 But it's like kind of looking in the greener pasture
10:28 and the next step and the next edition.
10:32 So I think this next edition, having kind of a different
10:37 outlook on life, having different products,
10:39 like the Scottish product, I think
10:41 is going to be really amazing to showcase in the way
10:43 that we cook at Avery.
10:45 So it's going to be exciting to kind of just have that
10:50 as a chapter.
10:50 But it's not necessarily the end.
10:52 It's kind of like the middle of the story
10:57 where we're just kind of taking a pivot and changing direction.
11:02 And so the Stockbridge Restaurant
11:03 was quite an institution in Stockbridge.
11:05 So how has it gone?
11:07 I know you've had some kind of preview nights
11:09 in the last little while.
11:10 How have the people of Stockbridge
11:11 and the people of Edinburgh in general
11:13 kind of taken to the idea of the restaurant?
11:16 I mean, I think everybody's been really supportive.
11:20 They've been-- Jason and his wife,
11:24 they were there for 25 years.
11:26 So I think it's huge shoes for us to fill.
11:31 And what we've noticed is people walking by.
11:34 And I think we're still in this kind of phase
11:36 when people walk by, if they see the doors open,
11:39 or they'll just pop in and say hi.
11:40 Like, oh, I remember this restaurant, Stockbridge
11:42 Restaurant.
11:43 Say hi.
11:45 We've had a couple people just kind of pop in.
11:48 And I'm like, oh, we're going to be
11:50 selling some of the plates and cups and things.
11:52 Like, if you want anything, take it with you.
11:54 And hopefully, we'll have you back once we get it opened.
11:58 So everybody's been really, really nice
12:00 and just kind of saying hi.
12:01 The entire neighborhood, some of our packages
12:05 get delivered to the nail salon.
12:07 And she's like, oh, Rodney, have some of your packages.
12:10 So it's nice to have that community around,
12:12 and everybody takes care of each other.
12:14 And I think the businesses on St. Stephen's Street
12:18 really look out for each other as well.
12:20 So it's kind of nice to have that kind of piece
12:24 to the restaurant as well.
12:27 And so how do you think running a restaurant in Edinburgh
12:32 is going to compare to running one in San Francisco?
12:34 Is there any sort of obvious different challenges
12:37 within the sort of two different cities?
12:39 So as I--
12:44 my wife and I have talked about this a couple times.
12:46 And I've said to her, I was like, it's very similar.
12:48 But it's just a little bit different.
12:51 So it's kind of learning how to run a restaurant all over
12:54 again in just a little bit different way.
12:59 I think in-- what we found is the people that have come to me
13:06 for employment, we've hired a couple of people.
13:09 That's been amazing additions to the team.
13:12 That's really kind of taken this project and run with it.
13:16 So employment-wise, it's easier.
13:19 From what I've seen in San Francisco,
13:20 it was really hard to hire great employees in San Francisco.
13:23 I mean, I've had great employees at Avery in San Francisco.
13:26 But it was few and far between.
13:27 And we were always kind of short-staffed in San Francisco.
13:33 So I think here, at least for the time being,
13:37 we've found some really great people
13:40 that we added to the team that are really
13:42 taken on this project.
13:45 Food-wise, I think it's going to be interesting.
13:51 I mean, I think we try to be really
13:52 seasonal in San Francisco.
13:54 But I don't think I realized how not really seasonal
13:57 San Francisco is.
13:58 I think you get the seasons, but then it's
14:01 like San Francisco weather around California
14:05 is very similar throughout the year.
14:08 So I think here, it's going to be not necessarily challenging,
14:11 but challenging in a good way, a fun way of kind
14:15 of getting through the seasons and creating the menus
14:19 as we kind of get things in and celebrating the seasons
14:23 and celebrating the product that we get in, which in a way
14:28 is not really work.
14:29 It's more like just kind of experimenting and playing
14:33 with the larder that we have in Scotland.
14:36 These past couple of weeks, right now, it's early,
14:42 early mid-spring.
14:43 What do you call this, early spring still?
14:45 Or spring?
14:46 Yeah, I mean, spring has been a bit non-existent this year.
14:49 But yeah, it's probably about mid-spring.
14:52 So the forger sent this huge list of things
14:55 that he's finding now.
14:56 And I was like, you know what?
14:57 Let's just get one of everything.
14:59 Let's taste everything.
15:00 Let's get it.
15:01 Let's see what we can do with all the wild products.
15:04 And I kind of started a lot of conversation between the team
15:08 and how do we keep on track of what things
15:12 are coming in certain months.
15:13 And so we're basically kind of starting
15:15 that map of what products come when.
15:18 And the sous chef that I hired has a good idea.
15:21 But I think for me, it's like there's
15:23 a lot of things that I've just never tried before, too.
15:26 And even the seafood, cooking-wise and flavor-wise
15:31 is a little different than San Francisco, too.
15:33 So it's basically me learning how to cook all over again.
15:36 Which must be quite exciting, I suppose.
15:38 You must think there's not much more you can teach yourself.
15:40 And then you'd show up somewhere completely different.
15:43 It's just like almost starting again.
15:45 Yeah, and I think that was one thing that
15:49 was really exciting for me to move to Edinburgh as well.
15:52 It's like you're getting access to things
15:55 that we in San Francisco would try really hard to get.
16:00 Like any of the wild game during game season,
16:02 we would have to pay an arm and a leg for pigeons or woodcocks
16:07 or any of those things.
16:10 In America, you're not really allowed to sell wild game.
16:13 So it was kind of interesting this winter,
16:17 getting all those amazing birds and venison.
16:22 I think it's-- for me, growing up in the Midwest,
16:24 it was something that we enjoyed quite often that I
16:29 haven't had a chance to till now.
16:31 So it's kind of cool to have it on our doorstep.
16:34 And also, in America, there's quite a big tipping culture
16:37 as well.
16:37 It's sort of-- you can kind of have it here.
16:40 Maybe service charge is included sometimes,
16:43 but it's not as big a deal.
16:44 So is that something else to kind of get used to as well?
16:46 Yeah, I think just--
16:50 I mean, I think the VAT and service charge
16:56 and all those things, I think it's definitely
16:58 a different philosophy than America.
17:00 And so it is a little confusing in pricing things.
17:05 Sometimes I'm more asking the team,
17:07 like, hey, what do you--
17:09 I need some feedback on how do we structure this price
17:12 and things like that.
17:13 So we do-- we are planning on having a small service
17:19 charge added to the menu.
17:21 I think, from what I'm seeing in the higher end dining,
17:28 I think that's pretty common.
17:31 I think the team definitely deserves it.
17:32 So--
17:34 Yeah.
17:36 So what can people expect?
17:40 We've talked a lot about your background and stuff,
17:43 but what can diners expect from Avery in Edinburgh?
17:48 I think what they can expect in these kind of first year
17:53 is a lot of change and evolution.
17:57 And for me, testing the Scottish larder
18:02 and experimenting with different flavors
18:05 and finding our own techniques with the new ingredients
18:09 that we're finding.
18:12 We do a lot of seafood.
18:14 So you definitely would expect a good amount
18:17 of seafood on the menu.
18:18 I try to keep a good balance of seafood and vegetable
18:21 and protein.
18:22 But I think for the first few bites, we have the oysters.
18:25 And we've got these really amazing spider crabs
18:28 and things like that.
18:29 So I think it really depends on what
18:31 we're finding from fishmongers and things like that.
18:35 I would say that the menu, as we change through the season,
18:40 we'll constantly move certain dishes around
18:43 or we'll change certain dishes based on availability.
18:47 So if you come one month and you come the next month,
18:50 there might be a couple of things that are the same,
18:52 but maybe half the menus shifted to a different season.
18:59 So we try to keep it around 10 to 14 courses, give or take.
19:07 So the experience will be anywhere from two to three
19:09 hours, depending on the menu and how fast people eat.
19:13 And it's a tasting menu.
19:18 Yeah, so we're tasting menu only.
19:21 Sticking to similar format of what we had in San Francisco,
19:27 where we start with three or four small bites,
19:31 more vegetable-focused course, hot seafood course.
19:38 This dish that's been on the menu
19:41 since our first pop-ups in 2016 in San Francisco,
19:44 it's tortellini in brodo.
19:46 It's one of our signature dishes that we have.
19:49 It's tortellinis that are filled with the broth made
19:51 with mushrooms.
19:52 So when you bite into the tortellinis,
19:54 the liquid comes out and it's flavored
19:56 with shiitake mushrooms and cultured butter.
19:59 And then the broth is a very rich but delicate broth.
20:02 It's made with-- right now, we're
20:04 infusing with roasted garlic skins and burnt onion butter
20:08 and things like that.
20:09 So it's a very savory dish before we
20:10 move into the main courses.
20:13 Kind of warming, and it's like a big hug almost.
20:18 And have you found anything within Scotland's larger
20:21 so far that you've been quite surprised by
20:23 or it's become a bit of a favorite?
20:25 I mean, there is a handful of things where I was like,
20:31 oh, wow.
20:33 I think the scurvy grass, like the Scottish wasabi,
20:38 the coriander grass, it tastes like--
20:43 in America, we call it cilantro.
20:47 I think the wild greens are definitely very cool.
20:53 We're just now starting to see some mushrooms kind of pop up,
20:55 too, so we're just getting the first test of those.
21:01 But I think for the most part, it's
21:03 been the seafood that's been really the singing
21:07 part of Scotland so far for me.
21:10 We're getting whelks and cockles and these really beautiful wild
21:14 mussels and things like that that
21:16 are coming from the islands.
21:19 And it's kind of cool to see so much variety coming
21:24 from such a small area.
21:28 It's kind of cool.
21:31 And I'm assuming you've been eating and drinking
21:35 quite a lot well just to get some inspiration.
21:37 Have you come across any favorite restaurants
21:39 in Edinburgh or Scotland so far?
21:43 So we went a couple of times to La Leke up at Glen Turf.
21:51 And that was Chef Chris.
21:52 I met Chef Chris right before we moved to Edinburgh.
21:54 So we were talking before he introduced me
21:58 to a couple of chefs in Edinburgh as well.
22:01 So we ended up going up there and seeing him.
22:02 It was an amazing experience.
22:05 I think if we had time and my wife would say,
22:10 we need to go there at least once a month.
22:13 So it's definitely, I think, her favorite experience.
22:17 And I think in Edinburgh proper, we've had a great meal.
22:24 We had some great bites at Noto.
22:26 We had a great meal a couple of weeks ago at Oscar.
22:31 They just opened recently.
22:34 But I think the cool thing about Edinburgh food scene is
22:36 when we came in 2022 to now, I think
22:39 it's evolved so much more in the past two years
22:44 than I could imagine.
22:46 I think there's maybe five or six other restaurants that
22:49 opened in the past year or so.
22:53 Similar kind of fine dining, maybe not as ultra fine dining
22:57 as it only tastes to me.
22:59 But I think it's kind of cool to see that Edinburgh, I think,
23:04 is hungry for a unique dining experience in that sense.
23:08 So everywhere we've gone has been great.
23:10 I think we're extremely different style
23:12 than a lot of the other restaurants that
23:15 are in Edinburgh.
23:16 So I think it's going to be kind of fun to see,
23:18 as we kind of evolve into who Avery is in Edinburgh,
23:21 going to see how guests feel about how we look at food.
23:26 And I should ask you about the name as well.
23:28 What does the name mean?
23:32 So when we opened in San Francisco,
23:34 the original idea with the name was Living and Eating in Art.
23:39 So in San Francisco, we had a huge mural
23:41 when you walk in from a local graffiti
23:45 artist named Victor Reyes.
23:48 And we always knew that we wanted art
23:51 to kind of be the focus.
23:52 We were having custom plates made and silverware
23:55 and all these things.
23:56 So everything, basically, that we had
23:58 was kind of an art piece in a way.
24:01 So our focus was that kind of saying of living and eating
24:04 art was our focus.
24:08 And as we moved into opening Avery,
24:12 I ended up getting a Great Dane, who was named Avery.
24:17 So our mascot is a Great Dane.
24:20 She's a blue Great Dane.
24:21 You probably see her walking around in Edinburgh
24:24 every once in a while.
24:26 So Edinburgh, I think, is going to be a combination of two
24:30 names together, named after the dog and also Milton Avery,
24:36 who was named Avery.
24:39 Nice.
24:40 And are you hopeful for a Michelin star,
24:43 so kind of reflecting your success from San Francisco?
24:46 Do you think that might come in Edinburgh as well?
24:50 I think the experience that we give,
24:53 I think it definitely deserves a star.
24:55 I think in Michelin's eyes, I think
24:59 there's so many boxes that they need to fill that I think
25:03 you never know.
25:04 And we are hopeful and wishful for a star, at least.
25:08 We'll kind of see as we move on this journey and go along.
25:15 Edinburgh's definitely a place for it.
25:17 Glasgow's got a couple now, but Edinburgh's every time--
25:21 not every year, but most years, that's where the new stars are.
25:24 So yeah, it would be nice to see.
25:27 Rodney, thank you very much for your time.
25:28 It sounds like a really exciting time for you guys.
25:31 And I'm looking forward to coming
25:32 to visit at some point soon.
25:33 Yeah, really excited to have you.
25:35 And I'm excited to be in Edinburgh
25:37 and kind of showcasing what we can
25:39 do with Scottish ingredients.
25:42 (upbeat music)