The EU needs a "courageous" social agenda to revitalise the Green Deal, Nicolas Schmit says. The Socialists and Democrats' lead candidate in the European elections outlined his views on revising the Migration Pact and opposing the far right to Global Conversation's Isabel da Silva Marques.
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00:00 The European Union needs a courageous social agenda to revitalize the Green Deal.
00:05 The bloc's migration policy also needs to be revised when it comes to financial agreements
00:10 with autocratic countries.
00:12 Those are some points made by Nicolaas Schmid, the leading candidate of the Socialists and
00:16 Democrats to the European elections and our guest on the Global Conversation.
00:24 Mr Nicolaas Schmid, thank you very much for accepting our invitation to this program.
00:30 After five years with a jobs and social rights portfolio under the leadership of Ursula von
00:36 der Leyen, why did you decide to run for President of the European Commission?
00:42 Well I think that after the five years where we tried to put social at the center, I thought
00:51 that there was still more to be done.
00:54 Well I think this is the right moment for social democracy to have the Commission after
01:02 such a long period because we had now for 30 years, we had 25 years conservative presidents
01:09 of the Commission.
01:10 It's time for change.
01:12 One question at the polls, citizens often say that some of their priorities are exactly
01:17 the social issues that you say are so dearly to the Socialists, protection of employment,
01:22 a more inclusive economy, fighting poverty.
01:25 So why does the extreme right still seduce so many voters and the Socialists and Democrats
01:32 keep coming in second place in those polls?
01:37 Well we are living in a very uncertain period, uncertain for different reasons.
01:44 We are coming out of a major crisis, the COVID crisis, not so far away is the financial crisis.
01:52 We had a difficult moment for many, many European citizens due to inflation.
01:59 We have a war in Europe.
02:01 So I think this uncertainty plus the topic of migration has now focused the debates and
02:09 finally the extreme right are playing on fear.
02:14 They are not proposing anything but they are playing on fear.
02:20 And I think this creates this special situation but we still have a few weeks to go and to
02:28 show that it's not about fear, it's about building confidence.
02:33 And what does the Socialists and Democrats have in their programme that would give that
02:39 sense of confidence, of security?
02:41 Well first I think we are very clear we are on social.
02:46 We want to continue a very active social policy.
02:51 We have to bring our societies back together.
02:54 It's about social cohesion, it's about social justice.
02:58 The second one is to combine social and the Green Deal.
03:02 I think we have to stress more the social dimension of the Green Deal as well as, by
03:08 the way, the economic and industrial dimension of the Green Deal.
03:13 This is part of our programme.
03:16 And the third one will be to clearly state our strong commitment for democracy.
03:22 But in that social agenda, I mean, you were able to approve some new directives, adequate
03:28 minimum wage, work on digital platforms, on salary transparency, but then they were quite
03:35 watered down by the governments.
03:37 Aren't you frustrated by this difficulty to get more innovative legislation being really
03:44 trickled down to people's lives?
03:47 I do not agree totally with the idea that they were watered down, especially not the
03:55 directive on minimum wage was not really watered down.
03:58 It was even strengthened by the European Parliament, especially on the side of collective bargaining,
04:04 which is a very important aspect.
04:07 The other one, the platform you mentioned, was a bit softened.
04:12 So I think this is the way, by the way, how Europe functions.
04:15 We are functioning on the basis of compromises.
04:19 And no proposal coming from the Commission goes out and is adopted purely as it was proposed.
04:29 So this is the way how Europe functions.
04:31 Do you think that subsidising industry, you know, to be bolder like the United States
04:37 and China, to protect our industries, our jobs, quality jobs, like you mentioned.
04:43 So is this something that you would think would be only possible through an investment
04:49 fund?
04:50 We have to target supports and subsidies, especially for a certain number of technological
04:56 developments, for innovation, for transforming innovative processes and products into market
05:07 processes or products.
05:08 I'm not against subsidies, but now to say the only way to stay competitive is by subsidisation.
05:16 I would not say that.
05:17 Now obviously Europe needs investment capacity, because when we are in competition with the
05:24 US or China, they are investing huge amounts of money.
05:30 And Europe, when you compare how much the US invests in artificial intelligence, in
05:35 certain technologies, including green technologies, we are far behind.
05:40 And here I think we have to do more, and that's why we need an investment capacity, because
05:46 otherwise Europe will not be keeping up or even leading certain industries which we should.
05:56 There is always this shadow of a possible trade war with China.
05:59 The President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, said that she might
06:03 use all trade defence tools available.
06:09 Do you think there is this danger of a trade war with China, and how could we counterbalance
06:15 their subsidies and their disloyal practices?
06:21 China is now an important player in the world economy.
06:25 But China does not respect a certain number of rules we expected them to respect in the
06:32 context of the World Trade Organization, which has been dramatically weakened.
06:38 Now, a trade war is for the benefit of nobody.
06:43 But at the same time, Europe should not be naive, and we should really defend our interests,
06:51 especially when we get the feeling that China is not respecting our subsidiation, our dumping
06:58 practices.
06:59 And Europe has to be bolder and much more active and rapid.
07:07 Including with sanctions and more targeted measures?
07:11 If there is a dumping issue, like we have in some technologies, especially also technologies
07:18 linked to green technologies, like the solar panel, we are waiting for too long.
07:24 We are not reacting sufficiently rapidly.
07:28 So I think here in Europe, in this new context, in this new global context, we have to be
07:34 bolder.
07:35 But at the same time, I think, we have to continue to talk to China.
07:40 But also they invest and they create jobs.
07:42 Are you worried about the kind of jobs and investments they are doing?
07:45 Some member states are quite keen on having Chinese investments.
07:48 I know about cars.
07:49 Cars, especially Hungary, is now attracting car industry from China.
07:55 I'm not worried.
07:56 I think we, European companies, are investing still heavily in China.
08:02 So we cannot say, well, we invest in China, but you cannot invest here.
08:08 It's always, by the way, a question of reciprocity.
08:12 And this reciprocity issue has to be much more put into the centre in our relationship
08:20 with China.
08:21 Let's talk about another sector of activity.
08:23 If I'm not mistaken, I heard that your dream job as a child was to be a farmer.
08:27 So these professions are some of the protagonists of the big protests against new regulation
08:35 to safeguard biodiversity and to accelerate climate action.
08:39 So what is your strategy to gain over their confidence and trust?
08:44 We have seen during the last years and decades that farmers' income has gone down.
08:53 We have seen immense hikes in their production costs and their income, their prices have
09:02 not reflected these increases.
09:06 I think we have to reflect how far also the idea of pure market functioning is adequate
09:16 and penalises finally many, many farmers.
09:20 In many cases, smaller and medium-sized farmers are in big difficulties.
09:25 But you admit to give more technological and financial support to them?
09:30 This is another fact, is how to support the transformation of our farming industry, of
09:35 our farming, also introducing technology, obviously this is important.
09:40 We are developing artificial intelligence.
09:43 How can farmers be supported by artificial intelligence or other technological means?
09:51 And at the end also about bureaucracy.
09:54 I agree that if the farmer spends more time in the office than on the field, this is something
10:01 which is not normal.
10:03 But at the end, farmers have a big interest in the success of a fair, socially fair and
10:11 economically fair Green Deal.
10:12 I would like now to discuss the new pact on migration and asylum.
10:16 That was something very complicated, took two years.
10:20 It should also help to create more jobs with economic migrants.
10:24 Europe's population is ageing.
10:26 But there is a huge emphasis on externalisation.
10:30 Agreements with autocratic governments in Tunisia, Egypt, Mauritania, that by the way
10:35 benefits a lot Spain, that has a socialist prime minister.
10:40 So what do you think of that dimension instead of creating the legal pathways for these people
10:46 to come and even enrich the society?
10:48 I'm quite reluctant with these deals, which have still to be proved to be efficient.
10:57 We are spending now huge amounts of money, giving this money to different regimes or
11:04 governments like the Tunisian government.
11:09 We know that the authorities there are really treating very badly the refugees.
11:16 We have still the problem in Libya, where there is no real, well there is a government,
11:22 there are even two governments.
11:24 We have the question in Egypt.
11:25 So I'm quite reluctant with this kind of deals, which have been struck.
11:30 Would you admit to revise them or even to cancel them?
11:33 Yes, I think we have to revise them and see what can be done, how can we do it differently.
11:38 Because we do not know exactly also how the money is used.
11:42 That's another issue.
11:43 I've heard now that there has been a deal with Lebanon to keep the Syrians away from
11:51 Europe, where nobody knows exactly how the money which has been announced will be spent
11:58 in Lebanon, given the situation of the Lebanon government, which is in some way a very weak
12:05 government and all the Hezbollah and other influences being there.
12:12 So for you it's more about supervising what is being done, but Europe will not move to
12:16 a model such as the UK with the Rwanda model?
12:20 We have Italy making agreements with Albania, which is not a member of the Union.
12:23 I am absolutely against what we call the Rwanda model.
12:28 This is against the basic rights and fundamental rights Europe is built on.
12:38 So now just delegating the treatment of refugees to Rwanda or whoever…
12:46 Or Albania even.
12:47 Or Albania, yes.
12:48 This is a question, I would say, of non-respect of human dignity.
12:55 Let's talk a little bit of the situation in the Middle East.
12:59 We know that the Israeli government no longer cares about any requests by the Allies about
13:06 not doing any operations in Gaza, namely at the Rafah city.
13:16 What should be the reaction of the European Union that has been so accused of double standards
13:22 by not imposing sanctions, not even suspending or revising the association agreement?
13:27 This is a question we cannot escape forever, because if this is going on, if any political
13:35 solution is excluded, if any way towards a ceasefire is excluded, well, what is left?
13:44 Then there has to be some kind of a strong signal.
13:48 Otherwise, I fully agree with you, there are double standards and we cannot afford double
13:53 standards.
13:55 And not just our youth is criticising us, but also in many other parts of the world
14:00 we are criticised.
14:02 So I am absolutely in favour of a much tougher approach.
14:08 Talking about the double standards, normally they are comparisons with Ukraine.
14:13 Do you think the European Union will be able to stand alone helping Ukraine if Donald Trump
14:19 is the next president of the United States, for instance?
14:23 Well, I think we have to do whatever it takes.
14:27 Saying well, oh, Europe is not able to do it, this is a further invitation to Putin.
14:32 So we have to do whatever it takes.
14:35 So in that sense we have to mobilise more resources, we have to accelerate our production,
14:42 especially for ammunition, but also other equipment.
14:46 This is not easy because time is short.
14:49 So there is more political willingness to create a European defence and security strategy,
14:54 but the forniture is always the money.
14:56 Would common debt be a solution in order to get more resources for financing instruments
15:03 of the defence strategy?
15:04 Well, you know, Europe is under threat and people do not really always realise that.
15:10 We are under threat.
15:11 And the last declarations by Putin are a clear threat against Europe.
15:18 I always say, could you imagine churches saying after, in 1940, well, I am not sure if I can
15:27 resist against the Nazis because I do not know how to finance that.
15:33 Could you imagine that?
15:34 No.
15:35 And that's the situation we are in.
15:37 And that's why Europe has now to go a step further.
15:42 And if this is the way to do, on here also a European capacity, financial capacity to
15:51 stand and to accelerate its own defence and security capacities, we have to do it.
16:00 You think the so-called frugal countries will be on board with that idea?
16:04 Among the frugal countries there are those who are on the border.
16:06 They are on the border.
16:08 The Finns, the Swedes, they are on the border.
16:11 And by the way, we are all on the border.
16:15 And I think this is an essential, I would even say in some way an existential issue
16:21 for Europe now.
16:22 Because if Putin wins this war, we will have a lot, a lot of surprises, very dangerous
16:29 surprises.
16:30 And that's why decisions have to be taken now.
16:34 It's not about discussing what kind of defence, security we will have to have in the next
16:39 ten years.
16:40 It's now we have to take the decision.
16:42 Because the threat is now.
16:44 It's not in ten years.
16:45 It is daily.
16:47 It's daily.
16:49 We go now close to the date of the elections.
16:51 So a rise of the extreme right is probably on the cards.
16:55 They will probably have a greater representation in the European Parliament.
17:00 What should be the limits for the Alliance when Ursula von der Leyen said that her party,
17:05 EPP, could consider to get support from the ultra-conservatives, ECR group?
17:12 In that case, should the Socialists be automatically out of such a coalition?
17:17 There is no way, I'm very clear on that, there is no way to have any arrangement, deal or
17:24 whatever with the extreme right.
17:27 Because I noticed that with EPP they make some very special distinction between extreme
17:35 right and extreme right, the decent extreme right and the paria extreme right.
17:41 When I look at the so-called decent extreme right, who are these people?
17:45 They are Vox, they are Franco admirers, they are Mussolini admirers, they are Peace Party
17:52 who was about to abolish the rule of law in Poland and was sanctioned by the Commission.
18:00 So where is the decent extreme right?
18:01 There is none, there is none.
18:04 And that's why there is no way to have any arrangement, just buying votes, because the
18:12 extreme right, they are intelligent, so they will not give their votes for nothing.
18:17 So they will ask concessions on the way how European policy will be defined.
18:24 So the moderate agenda of Vucel Vondereyer would be no longer moderate?
18:28 Well I am not for moderate agenda, I am for a courageous agenda, you know, it's not about
18:33 moderation in comparison to the extreme right agenda.
18:36 Yes, but in a period where we have so many difficulties and problems.
18:41 But they would really try to influence this agenda and their idea, their conception of
18:48 Europe is fundamentally different from ours, social democrats.
18:53 But I suppose, I suppose, now I am not sure anymore, from the EPP conception, because
19:00 the EPP conception is very much linked to the former Christian democrats.
19:05 Now I know that for real Christian democrats there is no way to have an alliance under
19:11 whichever form with the extreme right.
19:14 And that's our position too.
19:16 I am very clear, no way to have any understanding here.
19:20 What do you think of the possibility that the Council will not even follow the leading
19:26 candidate scheme again and might select another person for the job?
19:31 Well I must say I will not enter in this kind of speculation now.
19:37 But let's wait the result and then I think decisions have to be taken and I am sure that
19:44 there will be forces there to say, well we have to stick by the voters' expectations.
19:53 Mr. Nicholas Schmid, thank you very much for your presence on the Global Conversation.
19:56 Thank you, thank you.
19:57 [SWOOSH]
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