Maj Gen Mrinal Suman (retd.), military analyst, speaks with Col Anil Bhat (retd.) on the current situation in Jammu & Kashmir | SAM Conversation
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00:00 Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor. Today we'll discuss a
00:21 development in Jammu and Kashmir where there has been an unprecedented massive input of
00:32 tourists but they are being looted. We welcome Major General Mrinal Suman, a seasoned defence
00:51 and security analyst. He's from the SEPAS and it is to his credit that when the nuclear
01:02 test was being performed at Pokhran, it is he who is in charge of preparing the shaft
01:10 for it. General Suman is out of one of the officers of a group of officers who recently
01:20 visited Srinagar and some other places. Ever since the abrogation of Article 370, the tourism
01:39 started picking up and it reached a stage where it is unprecedentedly high. But the
01:50 very disturbing aspect of it is that a lot of tourists are being fleeced. General Suman
02:02 sir, I request you to give us an overview of whatever you experienced recently.
02:12 Thank you Anil. It's a pleasure to be associated with you. My first visit to the Kashmir Valley
02:24 was in 1961, nearly six decades earlier, when my father was posted there and I visited that
02:32 place and took my NDA exam in Srinagar. After that, after having joined the army, the valley,
02:42 very often, mostly on duty. Now, after the abrogation of Article 370, there was an urge
02:51 to go and see the changed circumstances. I had seen the valley in the early 90s at its
02:59 worst when the turmoil was at its peak. And now we wanted to see how the things have changed
03:07 after the abrogation of Article 370. So we were three veterans with our wives, so six
03:13 of us, we decided to visit the valley and visit the major places. Our trip was for eight
03:20 days from 21st to 28th March. It was through a tour agency, a reputed tour agency, and
03:28 we stayed in three of the four-star hotels, hired a Krista, Innova Krista, for eight days,
03:35 which stayed with us. No complaints about the hotels. They were very warm, wanting to
03:41 do well, trying to establish themselves. They had lots of people who were untrained because
03:49 there was no hotel industry or hospitality industry earlier, and now they were picking
03:54 up. And they were grateful if we told them a few tips. So that was very nice. I mean,
04:00 as far as the hotel industry was concerned, they were warm, keen to serve us better, and
04:06 keen to impress us. But what actually hurt us most was the total neglect of the industry,
04:15 the tourism industry, by the state government. Centre is doing its bit, but ultimately it
04:21 is for the state government to carry out the infrastructure development. You will be surprised
04:30 that the first shock that we got was from the tour operator himself. We got a warning
04:38 from him, "Sir, you're going there. Please do not argue with people. People are very
04:43 rude. Whatever you fix with them, make sure that it's absolutely clear, because at times
04:50 there can be disputes about whatever they are talking to you or discussing with you."
04:56 And the worst was when they said that, "If you want our help, please give us a ring,
05:02 but away from the tour, from the local vendors and the local taxi drivers." I mean, it shows
05:08 the amount of fear they had about the local mafia, that they dare not intervene even on
05:14 behalf of their own tourist guests. I mean, that was quite a shock. They're saying that
05:20 you can complain to us, but complain in private so that the local taxiwallahs and the vendors
05:27 and others, the ponywallahs, they don't get to hear what we are talking about. Notwithstanding
05:34 that, the valley is beautiful. Nature has really blessed it. It is undoubtedly a paradise
05:42 on earth. The weather was excellent. We started our tour with the four Mughal gardens. Sad
05:50 to say, they're such beautiful gardens. They are in utter state of neglect. The steps are
05:57 broken. There are no railings for the tourists to climb up. When it started drizzling, the
06:02 whole place was slippery. There are no toilets nearby. And even the tiles had got uprooted
06:10 at most of the places, and nobody had set them right. They have a small ticket, entrance
06:16 ticket for the gardens. No issue in that. But at one garden, the security staff themselves
06:23 were taking back the tickets so that they could recycle it and pocket the money. It
06:27 was quite a shock that they were doing that. More than anything else, Anil, there is a
06:35 mafia working at all the tourist spots whose total aim is to act like vultures and to sort
06:44 of loot as much as they can. I give a very small example. We went to a place called Doodhpatri.
06:52 We had a vehicle, as I told you, hired vehicle for which we had paid, an Innova Christa.
06:59 It was stopped two kilometers short of the tourist spot. And we were told, and that is
07:04 at a 9,000 feet altitude, either walk down to Doodhpatri or hire our police or hire our
07:12 what they call ATV, all-terrain vehicle, four-wheelers, on which one person can sit, and they charge
07:19 1500 rupees for that. Six of us, we are all senior citizens, we walked about 500 meters,
07:26 then realized that it is not, won't be sensible to walk two kilometers downhill and two kilometers
07:33 uphill in 10,000 feet, 9,000 feet altitude when we had not acclimatized. So we gave up.
07:40 So the net result was that we had a vehicle, the road is there, blacktop road is there,
07:46 but we were deprived from visiting Doodhpatri just because the local mafia said, please
07:52 sit down on the ponies and visit that, otherwise we'll not let you go. The vehicle was stopped.
07:59 And our own taxi drivers are so scared. I'm talking about the taxi driver whom we had
08:03 engaged in Srinagar, who was with us for eight days, a good person, well-meaning person,
08:08 but they are so scared of the local mafia that they dare not disobey them. Because they
08:14 say they stone our vehicles, they break our window panes. So then it really, the net result
08:21 of our visit to Doodhpatri was that we did not do visit Doodhpatri, and we remained two
08:26 kilometers short and came back. We went to Sone Mark, that day there was heavy snowfall,
08:36 wonderful weather, bright sunshine. There were thousands of people, thousands when I
08:41 say thousands, they can beat even Karol Bagh. People playing in the snow, enjoying themselves.
08:49 All through that two kilometer stretch, there was not even a single toilet in such cold
08:55 weather. When people were playing in snow, they were getting wet. They wanted to urgently
09:00 go to the toilet. There was not even a single toilet. When I looked around and asked other
09:06 people, there was not a single tourist official, not a single policeman who could help you
09:12 out. Ultimately, we located that some people, some hoteliers, enterprising ones, they had
09:19 pitched a small little shack or a tent outside at the backyard, and they were charging 10
09:24 rupees per individual for going and using that place. And what had they provided there?
09:29 One single pot. Gent or ladies, use it or forget it. And when I wanted to go there,
09:36 we found that there was a queue of nearly 25 to 30 people. I mean, 30 people means your
09:42 turn would come maybe after about an hour. So there I went, entered a hotel, and then
09:49 we ordered some kava and all that. And there I saw a lady pleading with the manager there.
09:57 He was the maybe manager or the headman at that time, saying that she needs to go urgently
10:03 to the toilet. He told her to please go outside, pay 10 rupees and stand in that queue. She
10:08 says, I can't wait. He says, I can't help. Then ultimately, he told her that if you want,
10:14 you can hire a room for one hour. I charge 6000 rupees as rent for one night, but from
10:20 you, I'll charge 2000 rupees for one hour and then let you use the toilet. That lady
10:26 with the tears in her eyes paid 2000 rupees. She couldn't help and this ruthless, merciless
10:33 chap then only opened the door of the bathroom for her. I mean, what I have quoted you just
10:39 one incident. Believe you me, over eight days, I found that every single vendor, ponywala,
10:47 taxi driver, and other service providers, they are all the same. The one and single
10:55 aim is loot, loot and loot as much as they are more than vultures. I mean, the lady was,
11:02 I mean, she was wearing a sari. She was maybe from Maharashtra or South India. She was maybe
11:08 50, 55 year old. And you know, one aspect which I want to highlight is that when we
11:14 went in the month, end of March, at that time, most of the schools were or the exams were
11:20 on. So, the young crowd was less and middle age or the senior crowd was more because all
11:26 of us like we wanted to beat the, go before the schools closed down so that there's not
11:31 much rush. So, this lady was also maybe around 55, 60 year old, but what a plight and I don't
11:37 think she will ever carry a good opinion about the Kashmir Valley. And that man was heartless.
11:46 Heartless, he didn't even sort of think twice that, I mean, that lady was his mother's age
11:53 and what a state she was in. But she had to go, she had to go. That was unfortunate part.
11:59 When you talk about the Sonmarg, we told you about the Sonmarg. We went to Pahalgam. Same,
12:08 we have a vehicle, the vehicle is parked in the hotel, the vehicle is not permitted to
12:12 move beyond Pahalgam. There are three local sightseeing sites, the Aru Valley, Betaw Valley
12:20 and Chandan Valley. So, you have to hire the same Innova Krista from one of the trade union
12:27 and one of the drivers will come, charge you 3000 rupees and take you to these three places
12:32 over a trip for about five hours. Imagine the irony of the things, you have a taxi,
12:41 you have paid for it, it is standing in your hotel and you are still being asked to pay
12:45 for another taxi of the same kind to go around in that area. So, you land up paying for two
12:51 taxis at one time. We have paid for the taxi which we have brought from Srinagar and we
12:56 are paying for another car to take the taxi which we had to hire from Gulbarg, from Pahalgam,
13:03 the trade union. And they are so clever, they are so clever and they are so unscrupulous.
13:10 They take you around in what is supposed to be a five-hour trip, they try and finish off
13:14 in two, two and a half hours so they can do another trip. And in that also, let me tell
13:20 you, they took us one kilometre beyond Betaw Valley and they stopped. Sorry sir, we cannot
13:25 go any further. I said, why can't you go? He said, sir, all the taxis come here. I said,
13:30 where is Chandan Valley? Chandan Valley is six kilometres away. So, you have taken money
13:34 from us to go to Chandan Valley. Yes sir, we call this the Chandan Valley stop. So,
13:39 they are not, they didn't take us to Chandan Valley. They named a place called Chandan
13:43 Valley stop and they turned around and came back. So, we, after having paid for going
13:50 to Chandan Valley, we never went to Chandan Valley. And it was a personal loss for me
13:55 because in 1961, I had walked with my parents up to Chandan Valley and I wanted to see.
14:02 And border roads have made a beautiful road there. Everything is fine but these people,
14:06 they are not going to let us because they are a mafia and you can't argue. And we had
14:09 already been warned by the tour operators that don't get into an argument with them.
14:14 So what could we possibly do? So, we turned back. Yes, please.
14:20 Sir, it's in fact, it's a very unpleasant surprise to get all these inputs from you.
14:30 What about the local police? Were they not deployed there? Was there no help from their
14:41 side or? That's the saddest part. All through our
14:48 stay there, we saw a few policemen in Lal Chowk, Red Square what they call. Otherwise,
14:54 nowhere was there police to be seen. Our salute, our hats off to the CRPF. They were there
15:01 in patrolling the place. They were occupying posts all along the road and they were the
15:06 one who were instilling confidence in the public. They were very nice people and they
15:11 were up and about alert. But local police, sorry.
15:17 This is the army that you're referring to, sir?
15:20 I'm talking about CRPF.
15:22 CRPF, okay, sir.
15:23 The army was not deployed. The CRPF is manning the place.
15:27 Because I think they made sure that army is kept away now from and placed only on the
15:34 line of control.
15:35 That's right. That's right. The CRPF is responsible for the internal security and they are doing
15:41 a fabulous job and one could see them at every place, on every major artery, major road.
15:47 They were there with their vehicles patrolling the place, even in Red Square, they were there.
15:52 But local police and local tourist staff or tourist department or the government officials,
15:59 it appeared that the state government had abdicated its responsibility totally. They
16:03 had left the tourists at the mercy of the mafia. And I was telling you, like, imagine
16:10 they were trying to talk and calling it the heaven on earth. When we went in that two
16:16 and a half, three hours drive from Aru Valley to Bita Valley to so-called Chandanwadi, which
16:23 is just about one kilometre from Bita Valley, we did come across a single facility, single
16:28 toilet, single, what do you call, shelter. If the weather backs up where the tourists
16:34 will stand, what will they do? And the worst was I have put up a photograph to the state
16:39 government. I said, these are the boulders at Bita Valley, behind which most of the ladies
16:44 were going in a queue for toilet. I mean, what a shameful and disgraceful thing to call
16:51 it a Bita Valley. You have thousands of people playing around, frolicking in water there,
16:57 beautiful, clean water, but not a single facility and you left the tourists go behind the boulders.
17:04 Sir, it only reflects firstly what things were like prior to the abrogation of D70 and
17:17 that nothing has been done to improve on that. And of course, from what you said, it's very
17:25 clear that the state government officials or operatives who are, you know, those who
17:34 are responsible for various tasks, they are, their mindset has probably not changed much,
17:43 sir. We keep hearing, you know, from time to time, statements from the government that
17:52 there's a great change, there's a great change. But I'd say that even for the insurgency
18:01 terrorism, it may certainly have improved, sir, but it's still disturbing enough to have,
18:11 you know, incidents which last up to a week. Just imagine four to five or six terrorists,
18:23 they hold down a battalion or a brigade. Still.
18:31 That is one part. But as I said, the CRPF is trying to do its best to make sure that
18:40 the tourists remain safe. But what hurt the most was, tourism, Anil, you'll agree with
18:47 me, is a very, very, very sensitive industry. Once the tourism industry, if an area gets
18:55 a bad name, people will start shunning it. Because once they know that this is not a
19:00 safe place, they know that you'll be looted, you'll know that you cannot be helped. People
19:05 will stop shunning it. My aim of putting up these points to the government, to the public
19:12 was primarily to, let's say, persuade the state government to take up the responsibility
19:18 that it is their due. If you are inviting tourists, you are duty bound to make sure
19:24 that the people are comfortable.
19:27 You sent feedback on this to, I think you wrote to the Prime Minister, sir?
19:35 I sent it to the Prime Minister and I got a call from the Sonmarg Development Authority
19:42 saying, sir, you are unhappy. So can we return those 2000 rupees that the hotelier charged?
19:49 I said, what a foolish statement to make. I don't even know who the lady was. And the
19:53 aim is not that she was charged 2000 rupees. The point was that it was an unfair way of
19:59 treating a tourist.
20:00 Actually, let me also tell you, Anil, the economy is thriving in that area. You can't
20:08 imagine the number of vendors. You can't imagine the number of shops. You can't imagine the
20:13 number of khokhas that have come up. You go to any place on the roadside, the people are
20:18 selling sarso ka saag, makki ki roti, I mean, things which are unheard of. So we stopped
20:25 at a place. So I asked that lady who was makki ki roti on a small little thela, I said, isse
20:30 pehle kya karte the aap? Jab tourist nahi the, kuch nahi, kaise khana paate the? Ek bacha
20:38 hai, wo 500 rupee le aata tha pathar phekne ke liye. Aur bakki ka kaam ek choti si kheti
20:44 hai, jo bhi usme se ho jaye, pehda ho jaye. Aur abhi, abhi maine seekha hai, yaha pe hamare
20:50 gharon mein toh koi saag ki, makki ki roti banata nahi, lekin maine seekha hai taake
20:54 main nakari kar, so main kuch kama saaku paisa. So she was making rotis, very nice rotis we
21:00 had with her, gave her a tip also, because she was hardworking. And her husband was serving,
21:07 standing close by. So what I'm trying to say, there is a sort of growth of economy, there
21:13 is as if the sort of sky has, the opportunities have opened up for them.
21:20 Windfall for them, sir. No doubt. But it's very, very revealing, sir, whatever you brought
21:30 out that she had a son who was earning by throwing stones at the army and security forces.
21:42 And that's how the money was coming.
21:45 That's how we got it out for him. Har ke bhi khana toh chalta hoga nahi, sab koi bache ko
21:48 beta tha, toh chup kar gayi, maine kya patthar paing rahen ki leh pe chup kar gayi, toh
21:52 bolo bolo haan, kuch kaam de dete. What I'm trying to say is that the economic boom is
21:59 unprecedented. Believe you me, there are lakhs of tourists landing up there, the hotels are
22:06 fully booked, the airport is choked, every road, the people are Indian tourists, they
22:12 are foreigners also, but lesser number. Indian tourists for them, it is something, you know,
22:18 a mystery which they wanted to see. What is… they have never been to Karnataka.
22:24 No doubt, sir. And there's absolutely no doubt about the fact that the center here
22:32 needs to take a very serious view and ensure that all actions are taken to ensure that
22:45 these such elements cannot have their own way.
22:50 But they seem to be having the blessings of the government. These mafias seem to be thriving
22:54 only. Take the case of Gulmarg. Gulmarg has got the best gondola in the world. It's
23:00 in two phases. It's out of this world. I mean, it's an experience. I have commanded
23:05 my regiment in Siachen even then I was fascinated by the expanse of the glacier. It is so beautiful.
23:12 But can you believe it? The tickets are opened online and within seconds all the tickets
23:17 disappear. Nobody knows who buys them. All of them disappear. And they say, the tour
23:23 operator says, there is a thriving black market in that. When we went to Gulmarg, again, first,
23:29 a terrible experience. Our own vehicle is standing there, which we have paid for, which
23:35 we are hired. They say, sorry, sir, you cannot use it. You have to hire our Krista, Innova
23:41 Krista to visit the palace, to visit another place and all that, two, three places. You
23:46 cannot use your own vehicle. So, you have to pay double.
23:50 They don't take you to your destination. They leave you. They stop for five kilometers or
23:55 so before that, which in that terrain is not funny, sir.
23:59 It's not funny. Not only that, the vehicle which we had taken from Srinagar, which dropped
24:05 us at the hotel and then he walked out. He said, sir, if I keep the car here, they will
24:10 take me. I will go back to another village and stay there. And this is the mafia. The
24:17 sad part is they have the best gondola in the world. I mean, no gondola can match even
24:22 in Switzerland and that. But yet, will you believe it? There was a two and a half hour
24:28 long queue to get into the gondola. And in that, there was not a bench. There was not
24:35 a shelter. There was not a railing. There was not a seating arrangement. There was no
24:41 toilet. Three hours, middle-aged people standing there. They had not even cleared the snow.
24:47 The people were skidding and falling. I myself fell down there. We had to hold each other's
24:51 hand to negotiate that queue. I mean, it's, I mean, I just can't imagine that these people
24:58 are ignorant about it. Same is the case when you go into the gondola, you go up, you don't
25:03 find a single facility, single infrastructure. You know, Dull Lake has its own charm. Staying
25:10 in a houseboat and taking a ride in the Shikaras, everybody wants to experience. Houseboats
25:17 are nice. They have been done up. They are being renovated. But houseboats in Dull Lake,
25:24 the surrounding area are filthy. There is no authority who's checking them up. If you
25:29 put your hand in while sitting in the duck boat, you may land up picking up filth in
25:34 the water. There is growth all around. There's no cleanliness. There's no hygiene. However,
25:41 houseboats and Nagin Lake are comparatively better. But what surprised me most as a SEPA
25:49 officer was the fact that in that sort of water environment, not a single houseboat
25:56 or a Shikara had a safety life jacket. Not even one. The jetties from which the Shikaras
26:05 were receiving the tourists were all broken. There were no railings. They were slippery.
26:11 The tiles had got uprooted and it was difficult. It was really a challenge for the middle-aged
26:17 people to step out of the stair steps and get into the house in the Shikara. And they
26:25 had to be helped there. And what worried me most was when I saw a couple passing on their
26:33 baby to the Shikara chap to put in the Shikara. I mean, God forbid, if the baby slips or anything
26:42 of that sort happens, there are no jetties worth the name. There is no precaution taken
26:47 there. No one is... I mean, it is as if a tragedy is waiting to happen there. And it's
26:54 filth all around as far as the houseboats are concerned, especially in the Dal Lake.
27:00 So I would request the government to make sure that we do not have any tragedies, we
27:04 do not have accidents, loss of life. Dal Lake is quite deep. So they ought to have certain
27:12 precautions, like life jackets should be made available to the people, even if they are
27:19 not wearing at least the Shikaras must have, the houseboats must have. It is in sheer abrogation
27:29 of all responsibility, abdication of all responsibility by the state government. It is totally left
27:36 to the people, to the mafia, to manage whether the Shikaras or the tourist spots or the taxi
27:42 stands. It was a very unpleasant experience and let me say disappointing experience. In
27:48 my article, I have written that despite all my nationalist feelings and despite my love
27:55 for the Kashmir Valley, I do not feel the Kashmir Valley is at present ready to receive
28:02 tourists the way they are rushing in. There is no facility, the government has to undertake
28:08 certain amount of responsibility. We all know that in high altitude areas, the weather can
28:14 turn for the worse at no time. They do not have anyone to rescue the people. They have
28:19 no first aid posts, they do not have oxygen cylinders, they have no medical help, anything
28:26 anywhere available. It is free for all, all is fine as long as it remains safe. But the
28:34 day something happens, then the government perhaps will wake up. That was the aim. And
28:39 second aim is they must make the people, the taxi people, the this thing, sensitive to
28:45 the requirement of the tourists. You cannot go on looting them for how long can you act
28:52 as vultures and for how long can they keep coming back to you as preys.
29:00 Thank you very much, sir. Thank you very much for some very important inputs that you've
29:04 given which were not known much. And I think it's high time that the central authorities,
29:19 they ensure that the state government is functioning in all aspects to make tourism, not only tourism,
29:29 to keep the valley, keep the valley and to keep all places safe. Otherwise, that means
29:38 that the mindset of people has not changed.
29:44 Right, absolutely right.
29:47 One indication is that. That niyat nahi badli. Anyway, let's hope for the best, sir, because
29:56 the abrogation of 370 is one very major task, one very major aim achieved, but it remains
30:11 unachieved, you know, if all these, if all, you know, if the state is not functioning
30:21 in all aspects. Thank you very much, sir. All the best.
30:27 Thank you, Anil. Thank you. Goodbye.