This week's guest is Dorothy Koomson, the London born, Leeds educated, now Brighton resident whose impressive writing career includes the Cupid Effect and her latest, a compelling book club read, is called Every Smile You Fake.
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00:00 [Music]
00:06 Welcome to Bucky, your new friendly and literary snob-free podcast for readers and for writers.
00:13 This pod is brought to you by National World, which runs many local news brands across the UK,
00:17 from Liverpool World to the Wolverhampton Express and Star,
00:20 from Sussex World to the Yorkshire Evening Post.
00:23 I'm journalist, writer and presenter Nicola Adam,
00:25 and I'm asking authors from across the genre divides to spill the ups and the downs of their journeys to publication
00:33 and share a few tips for putting authors along the way.
00:37 This week's guest is Dorothy Coombson, the London-born, Leeds-educated, now Brighton resident's
00:45 impressive writing career started in the library after school and through lots of daydreaming.
00:52 She wrote her first novel at the age of 13 for her school friends.
00:57 Then after studying journalism and working on magazines,
01:00 she continued to write on the train during her commute home from work.
01:04 Since then, she's been selected for Richard and Judy Summer Read and gone on to write multiple bestsellers.
01:12 Her latest, a compelling book club read is called Every Smile You Fake.
01:17 What an intriguing title. This is Bookie.
01:22 So today we have a big Bookie welcome to Dorothy Coombson,
01:27 who I feel like I should have baked a cake for because I do believe this is the 20th anniversary of you becoming a published author.
01:35 Am I right?
01:36 It is, yes, actually. Yes, it's 2023 to 2024.
01:41 I'm having the whole year. So, yeah, absolutely.
01:44 OK, well, that means you can celebrate for a year of 20. I mean, that is pretty impressive as a career and what you've achieved during that time.
01:51 It's just remarkable. But I just want to sort of start with just asking where you are.
01:55 Where are you in the world right now? I'm in Brighton, well, nearest Brighton, yes, by the coast.
02:04 So I'm not far from the sea. So I do get to go and walk by the sea if I want to.
02:09 I don't do it as much as I should. And every time I go to the beach, I go, oh, I should come more often.
02:16 And then I don't. So I should. Oh, it sounds lovely.
02:21 I love Brighton. So let's go right back to the beginning.
02:25 Tell us about young Dorothy and when your kind of aspirations towards writing began.
02:32 Oh, gosh, it's a long time ago now. I mean, I'm not that old, but I'm old enough.
02:38 I when I was younger, my mum taught me and my siblings to read before we went to school.
02:50 So I have always been very much a reader. And I used to go to the library every day after school.
02:56 And I remember my mum making a comment one time about how I should be trying to write my own books instead of hanging around in the streets with my friends.
03:04 Not that I did. It was just a comment she made.
03:08 And I was like, oh, wow, I should try that because, you know, I love to read.
03:12 So I might as well try and write a book myself. So I sat down, especially because at the time I remember reading this set of books by a woman called Jane Fisher,
03:25 who had written The Garden Gang set of books, and she wrote and drew this set of books about some talking vegetables that lived at the bottom of the garden.
03:36 And I was just fascinated that somebody my age, who's like 13, could could do that.
03:42 And when my mum made this comment, I thought, oh, I might as well give it a try.
03:47 So I decided to write my first book and I wrote it when I was 13.
03:51 I used to write a chapter every night and then hand it around my school friends the next morning.
03:57 And I mean, it was one of those books that I used to love reading at the time, but it was just so beyond my experience.
04:05 And so they, it was about this girl who lived in America and she had a twin brother and her mum had left.
04:13 And her dad was remarried to this woman who she didn't get on with.
04:19 And there's all this drama at school. I mean, it was just full of drama and completely alien to my experience because my parents were together forever.
04:29 And, you know, I had no boyfriend. I, it was just, it was complete fantasy.
04:36 But I love doing it. So I don't think I've ever stopped really since then.
04:42 That's brave that. I don't think I could have written something and shared it around with my mates at school.
04:48 That sounds brave to me. So you obviously had that kind of confidence early on.
04:53 It's more, I don't know if I had the confidence. It's just that I didn't, I didn't not do it.
04:58 Do you know what I mean? I didn't know not to do it. It was one of those things where I didn't think, I mean, that I'd get ridiculed or anything.
05:05 It didn't occur to me that they would ridicule me because, you know, you just did something and you shared it with people you liked.
05:11 So it wasn't like I thought, oh, I'm going to. I was brave in doing it.
05:17 It wasn't. It was just literally something I did. I didn't actually give it much thought.
05:22 Think about it now. I probably should have given it more thought.
05:28 And when, when did you, when was the next stage? I mean, I know that you went on to train and then become a journalist, among other things.
05:37 When was the next stage at which you started to continue to write fiction?
05:43 I always did. Were you doing it the whole time? I was doing it the whole time. I was writing short stories.
05:46 I had all these short stories, all these short story ideas and ideas for books.
05:52 I did actually write the first serious adult novel until a lot later.
05:58 And then I wrote two of them. No, maybe one.
06:07 And I was I was actually writing the book that became my second novel when I had the idea for The Cupid Effect, which was my first novel, my first published novel.
06:19 And so I was visiting my friend in Leeds. So I went to the University in Leeds.
06:25 And a couple of things happened. And I thought, wow, this would be a really good idea for a book.
06:31 So I put aside the book that I was writing, which was The Chocolate Run, and I started writing The Cupid Effect.
06:37 And so I wrote the first three chapters and I sent them off to agents, as you were advised to then.
06:44 You know, they said, write the first three chapters and then send it off to agents and wait for all the offers to flood in.
06:52 And and I got rejected by everybody. They were like, you know, we're not interested.
06:57 And so I thought, well, you know what? I'm going to finish this book because I really believe in it.
07:02 And that's one of my pieces of advice for writers, especially new writers.
07:09 But for all writers, you have to believe in the story you're writing.
07:13 If you don't believe in it, if you don't love it, it's just going to be it's not going to be it's not going to work.
07:22 People who read it will know that then you're not convinced by the story you're telling.
07:27 And also, if you do get published, if you do manage to get published, you're going to end up reading it eleventy billion times.
07:35 I'm not kidding. You read it so many times. So if you don't like this story, you're going to be proper sick of it by the time you finish.
07:42 So always believe in what you're writing.
07:46 So I thought I believe in this story. And it's a story of a woman who finds out that she's modern day Cupid, but she doesn't make people fall in love.
07:54 She she kind of inspires them to follow her dream, their dreams.
07:58 But she doesn't ever have the experiences that she wants.
08:04 It's always for other people. And so I thought I believe in this story.
08:08 So I thought I'd finish it and I'd finish it and I'll send it out again.
08:12 And then they'll realize it's brilliant. They'll change their mind.
08:16 And that didn't happen. They basically just all said to me, look, really go away, leave us alone.
08:27 So I was like, OK, fine. I sent it to a small independent publisher because I had nothing to lose, basically.
08:39 So and then they sort of a few months later. Took it on board.
08:46 That's amazing. So when was that? When did you first get it?
08:49 I mean, obviously it was 20 years, I guess. Was that when you first got the deal or was that when it was first published?
08:54 Yes. It was 20 years ago. Sometimes it takes two years, doesn't it?
08:58 Or sometimes. I know it does. I do know what I people's patience.
09:02 I'm not a very patient person. I know sometimes I talk to my friends and when they're,
09:07 especially when they're out queering with agents and stuff.
09:10 And I remember one person I spoke to had had been waiting nine months to hear back from an agent.
09:18 And the agent was going, oh, I'll get back to you. I'll get back to you.
09:21 I was like, mate, they're not into you. They're just not that into you.
09:26 But I was like, for me, I couldn't wait that long. I'm not capable. I'm too impatient.
09:32 So, yeah, so I'm actually really grateful that my book, I got the deal.
09:39 And a year later in 2003, it came out because I don't think I could have coped with waiting two years for something to come out.
09:50 So when did you have that wow moment? Right, I'm a published author now.
09:54 Did you see your book somewhere in a bookshop or did you, you know, when did you have that kind of realisation?
10:01 Oh, I still have that realisation today, 20 years later, 20, 19 books later, I'm still like, wow, look at me.
10:08 There's a book on the shelf with my name on it. Always.
10:12 Never gets old.
10:14 It doesn't. I'm not joking. I know it sounds like I'm messing about. It honestly doesn't.
10:20 Whenever I go to a bookshop and I see my book there because, you know, sometimes they're not there.
10:25 And that breaks my heart. But sometimes, you know, every time I'll go, wow, look, there's me.
10:32 I wrote that. And that was always the dream. Before I got published, I used to go and stand in bookshops,
10:37 particularly Borders and Oxford Street, and imagine my book being there in the K section.
10:46 And I was always really hopeful to get a whole shelf, you know, like a big shelf on the K, a big section on the K.
10:55 Like they had to have the whole shelf just for me and everyone else, all the other Ks had to be around me.
11:02 I, the day that the Cupid effect came out, I remember going into, I got the train into central London.
11:13 I lived in southeast London and I got the train to central London, went to Borders, the Borders I used to go and stand in.
11:19 And there it was on the shelves. Well, it wasn't there originally.
11:22 So I walked around for a bit going, oh, maybe it's not going to be here.
11:27 And then I went back about half an hour later and there it was.
11:31 And it was just like that moment. It was like, wow, look at me.
11:34 And so I had to take, I got someone to take a picture of me because that was pre-mobile phones time.
11:43 Pre-picture, you know, picture phones. So I got someone to take a picture with the camera.
11:48 You literally manifested it. That's what the, you know, the trendy word at the moment, isn't it?
11:54 But you manifested that to happen, didn't you?
12:07 But you manifested that to happen, didn't you?
12:09 Absolutely. You just need to imagine it so hard that it happens.
12:14 But also I had to put in the work. That's the thing.
12:16 It wasn't just a case of, oh, I got a book published and then I want to have a book published.
12:22 And then I did it. I had to write it and then get all the rejections because I was rejected a lot, twice.
12:29 And that kind of builds up your resilience. Also, you appreciate it more, I think.
12:37 So what, how did that book do? How did that first book perform?
12:42 Do you know what? At the time, again, it was a very different time in the publishing world.
12:48 And I say that because I didn't, you don't get, nowadays authors can get from their publishers weekly updates on sales.
12:59 On a Tuesday, the charts are updated and so all the sales are updated so you can get weekly charts.
13:05 Whereas then you didn't have that. Your publishers very rarely told you week by week what was going on.
13:13 So I had no clue. As far as I was concerned, I walk into a shop and more often than not, my book was there.
13:20 So it was like, wow, I mean, this is amazing. And I got a few emails from people.
13:28 I actually got more handwritten letters at that point. And so as far as I was concerned, it did well.
13:36 I mean, I wasn't, when I got the book deal, you know, the dream was, oh, give up my full time job and sit around on a sage longs,
13:44 eating grapes and dictating my book, really. You know, I thought I would be able to be a full time writer at that point.
13:53 And I couldn't. I had to still get on the train and go to work, which is actually a good thing.
13:58 At the time, I was like, oh, I haven't reached the goal that I wanted. But now I actually realise that's one of the best things that could have happened,
14:07 is that I didn't get a huge deal first time round because I remember every time I write a book now,
14:19 I remember what it's like to go on a train to work and how hard you work for your money.
14:26 And so when I write a book, I always remember that people are spending their hard earned money on my work.
14:31 And so I've got to put the best book I can out there. They might not like it, but they'll always know that I didn't slack off.
14:40 I didn't sort of like dial it in at any point because I know that people work really hard.
14:45 I mean, I work really hard anyway. That's always been my ethos. I'm a very hard worker.
14:50 But people work hard for their money to pay me for one of my books.
14:56 So I always have it in my mind that I need to do my best I can to honour those people and honour the people that,
15:02 you know, the person I was who used to get on a train and go to work every day.
15:06 And also it keeps you grounded, you know, the fact that you have to. It is a job.
15:13 And that's the other thing, you know, and I try and impress this upon writers all the time, new writers and people who don't want to pay full price for a book.
15:27 It is my job. It is my source of income. I deserve remuneration for the work I've put in.
15:33 You know, yes, it's a creative job and it's the best job in the world.
15:38 And I would not swap it for anything, but it is a job and I need to be paid for that job so I can pay my bills.
15:47 And so, you know, when books are heavily reduced and they're 99p for a month or something, that's not the norm.
15:55 That shouldn't be the norm. The norm should be paying the normal price for it because that's part of my income.
16:02 And I don't get that full cover price. So, yeah, not having the big, big, whoa deal at the beginning was actually very good for my mind to sort of a mindset of I've got to do this job.
16:17 I've got to do. I've got to do, put in the work and put in the hours to get back the bee on the shelves.
16:26 If that makes sense. Yeah, definitely. I mean, what's interesting, I think, and something that I've seen across the authors I've chatted to,
16:34 it's like those who've been around for a little bit and say you've done like 19 books, was it?
16:40 And the job of author has changed so massively in terms of before you could write the book and you just wrote the book and maybe the publishers would do some marketing and maybe you might do a few interviews.
16:52 But now it's like you are such a brand that you, I mean, we're doing it right now. Podcasts, social websites.
17:00 It feels like it must never end for you guys. Does it feel like that is all just part of the job now or is it extra?
17:10 It's it feels like it's part of the job. And I think that's what I think that's what a lot of newer authors struggle with.
17:19 They really struggle with it. And I feel for them, you know, there's there's a couple of surveys that came out recently that showed that a lot of debut authors and newer authors feel a lot of pressure.
17:35 And it affects their mental health because they are so they're under pressure to do it all, to write the book.
17:45 Write the best book they can, send it in on time, and then their publishers, they publish it.
17:51 But then they're under pressure to market it and to make sure that people know about it.
17:57 And and then when it does, that doesn't work out, it's really hard going, you know, and you feel like you failed and you haven't failed.
18:06 The job of author used to be and as you said, it's changed. But the job of author used to be write the best book you can.
18:12 And it's your publisher's job to do everything else. When you think about it, it's not that you think about somebody who's just been in a room for ages writing it and suddenly they have to have all this pressure.
18:24 I'm not surprised it's mental health implications there as well.
18:28 So in your career, you've enjoyed some tremendous success. Do you want to talk about some of those high points for you?
18:36 I have been really fortunate, I have to say, that lots of really good things have happened.
18:42 Way back when, again, it feels like a long time ago now, but my third book, My Best Friend's Girl, that was a Richard and Judy Summer read.
18:53 And then I got a call from my editor who basically said to me, are you sitting down?
18:58 And I was like, yeah. And they said, oh, you know, your book's been selected for Richard and Judy Summer reads.
19:03 I was like, oh, my God. Started screaming with a play style. So excited.
19:09 So, yeah, that was one of the things I. A couple of books have been optioned.
19:16 The Ice Cream Girls was adapted for TV by ITV a while back.
19:27 But, you know, it's going to sound really weird, but the biggest successes have been hearing from people who have been affected by my books
19:37 and people who have said that my book has changed their life or helped them to make sense of their reality or something that's happened to them.
19:48 And it's captured, for example, the Ice Cream Girls. I had so many emails from people saying.
19:54 This is the first time I've read about domestic abuse that actually deals with what went on, rather than just the sensationalist side of being hit.
20:05 It's all about the emotional abuse and the mental torture and the isolation.
20:13 And this is the first time I've seen what I went through reflected in in fiction.
20:20 And other people saying. I read your book and I suddenly realized that I was in an abusive relationship and I needed to do something about it.
20:30 And yes, those are the sort of things that really kind of define success for me as well.
20:39 The other stuff is fantastic. And I don't I want all of that.
20:43 I want lots of it. I want lots of chart topping and all that business.
20:47 But I also want the bit where people feel like they can understand that they see their experiences and who they are reflected in my books.
20:58 So, yeah. Well, I'm afraid we're running out of time, actually.
21:02 I'm probably going to get told off by Kelly, our producer, for talking too much.
21:07 But what we normally do at the end of the podcast is we've got a couple of quick fire questions.
21:11 If you're up for these. Nothing too complicated. What's the most read book on your bookshelf?
21:25 The most used book would be my dictionary and my thesaurus.
21:32 So that's right. OK, so that might. What's the book you wish you wrote?
21:36 Because I'm going to assume it wasn't the thesaurus.
21:44 Oh, that's a really difficult question. I know, this is hard.
22:00 No, I can't answer that question. I can't think because I just I love the books I've written and I'm always really admire other people's books as well.
22:12 So I don't wish I'd written them. I'm actually quite glad because I'd like to I like to read books that I haven't written.
22:20 OK, fair enough. Are you a reader of books, e-books or audio? Or do you like an audio book?
22:29 All of them. Reading is reading. I love them all.
22:32 So I have I often have an audio book on whilst I'm sewing, which is my new thing.
22:39 I'm sewing or if I'm cleaning or if I'm cooking and then I'll have a book in the loo and when I'm in bed,
22:49 a physical book and then I'll have an e-book when I need to check something quickly.
22:57 Just one more. What's your I know you've mentioned a few things,
23:01 but what is your very top tip for budding writers who want to start out whatever stage they're at?
23:07 My top tip would be to stop talking about it and write the book because we all spend a lot of time talking about it,
23:16 but not actually writing it. And from that, write the best book you can.
23:21 Forget about every single person in the world apart from yourself.
23:25 Those are worries for published authors. Those are worries for people whose books are on the shelves.
23:31 Until you're on that stage, forget about all of that and just focus on writing the best book you can.
23:40 If you're not, you should be a reader and you know how books are structured.
23:44 You know what makes a book good.
23:46 Brilliant. Thank you. Very wise advice. You know, and yours truly also needs to take it, I think.
23:51 But thank you so much, Dorothy. You've been absolutely brilliant.
23:54 Thank you.
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