India and China held the 20th round of corps commander-level talks at the Chushul-Moldo border meeting point on the Indian side in November 2023 which failed to make any headway to end the stand-off along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in eastern Ladakh.
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00:00 Welcome to SAM Conversation, an online program of South Asia Monitor.
00:17 Today our topic is the India-China border talks.
00:32 Should they continue?
00:36 For this we have with us Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, former Director General Infantry
00:44 and an experienced field commander of four missions along the line of actual control.
00:53 He's seen the Chinese up close with all kinds of their monkey tricks and what have you.
01:03 I'm not using this word lightly.
01:06 It's monkey tricks as seen over 50 years from 1967 till date.
01:19 General Kulkarni, I think we've had 20 or 21 co-commander meetings.
01:30 We've had other meetings and I'm sure on the diplomatic circuit also there must be some
01:44 or more than some interaction.
01:48 But what is disturbing is that whatever the Chinese had occupied right from Aksai Chin
02:06 that remains with them.
02:11 Even in 1967 after the Nathula skirmishes they worked very hard to make us agree with
02:21 them not to fire at each other.
02:26 And by doing this and by our accepting not to fire at them, I think they've taken great
02:35 advantage of this because their attempt to nibble, to try and you know crawl, nibble
02:46 and what you know.
02:48 I don't think that stopped.
02:51 Then 50 years later came Doklam.
02:57 Very two years later came the global virus which was leaked out from Wuhan, the very
03:14 place where Mr. Modi was invited by Xi Jinping.
03:22 And once that virus had become a pandemic, we saw the second Chinese aggression if I
03:31 may put it that.
03:36 Now you know what all has transpired.
03:42 We lost 20 personnel including the commanding officer of the Biharis.
03:50 And then I think in what followed, there's an official version of 43 but there are other
04:00 reports which say that we may have killed even up to 100.
04:05 And again ironically without the use of firearms.
04:10 We still did not use firearms then.
04:14 Anyway I request you to throw light on whatever because I think you having seen the pattern
04:29 earlier you're in the best position to tell us what has changed, if at all anything has
04:35 changed.
04:36 All yours.
04:37 Sir, thank you very much.
04:40 And wishing you and your viewers very happy, very happy Meghdooth Day because it was on
04:46 this day 40 years back that we launched Operation Meghdooth.
04:50 Very, very happy Meghdooth Day.
04:53 Yeah.
04:54 But notwithstanding that, I had a nice trip both to Arunachal and also to Ladakh in the
05:04 last six months.
05:05 And I can now virtually be able to go because I could go as far forward as one could reach
05:11 maybe in Ladakh along the Kailash ring, in Kavang along Bumla and things of those kinds.
05:18 So I have personally seen now what is it like on ground.
05:22 This is 1,597 kilometers of the LAC that we have.
05:28 Of course there are challenges, though denying the fact.
05:31 Because unfortunately, since it has not been demarcated, since the demarcation has not
05:37 been done and there are perceptual problems that crop up, as a result of which there are
05:42 these patrolling points and patrolling points, 65 in number, which extend from the Karakoram
05:48 Pass to Chuma.
05:50 So that is where the whole problem crops up.
05:53 So we have problems at patrol point 9, 10, 11, 12, 12 alpha, 13 in the Debsang plain.
06:01 We have 14, 15 in the Galwan region, then Hot Spring, then Gogra, things of those kinds
06:06 where a lot of water has flowed.
06:10 A lot of things have improved in the sense that yes, tensions to those that large extent
06:15 that existed around May 2020 have certainly come down.
06:20 The level has come down.
06:22 And one can say, well, the situation is stable, but definitely, as the chief says, sensitive.
06:28 When I say sensitive, because there's good old days that even I, when I was the chief
06:34 of staff, Eastern Command, when I was the chief of staff, working core, my interactions
06:38 with the Chinese were very cordial, nice, in the sense that things were not as bad.
06:46 And well, we could put across a point of view and then insisted, we also insisted, they
06:52 also insisted as to what they wanted.
06:55 And most of the time, all these meetings that took place, whether it was at the Maldo garrison,
06:59 or whether it was at Chushul, or whether it was at Mumla, all of these were primarily
07:04 to see to it that cordial peace and tranquility prevailed.
07:08 Now, what surprises me most is that why did the Chinese do what they did?
07:14 Now, very nicely you mentioned 2017, we had what you call in the East, and then subsequently
07:26 again we had after the Doklam, followed them after by the pandemic.
07:32 And after that, immediately came what happened on May 2020 at Galwan.
07:37 So why is it that ever since Xi Jinping has taken over in 2013, we continuously use the
07:44 word cordial.
07:45 You have, we find that assertiveness, the kind of attitude, which the Chinese seem to
07:51 be the followers like that the supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without a fight.
07:57 And as you rightly said, no shot being fired anywhere, even when we lost 20 of our men,
08:02 no shot fired, but most of the deaths took place because of the cold, winter, water,
08:07 freezing, everything.
08:08 But similarly, they also lost far number, far greater number, but irrespective whether
08:13 they lost or not, but we definitely lost 20 and that's a cause of concern.
08:18 And what really happened along when things can, and this assertiveness which comes, you
08:24 know, and like the Depth Song, most of it, many we see that along the Sirijab range,
08:29 along the Pengang show, the finger one to eight that we had, we will be able to go up
08:34 to finger eight, they would come up to finger four.
08:36 And now, of course, neither do we go to finger eight, nor do they come to finger four.
08:40 So it's a kind of a thing, which is, of course.
08:42 Now, when we say it doesn't really mean that we have lost territory.
08:46 So that must be really understood.
08:48 You know, it's not losing territory.
08:50 We can see all of it from the other side of Pengang show.
08:52 It's not that we can't see.
08:54 We can see everything from finger one to finger eight, all of it is visible.
08:58 We can dominate it by fire.
09:00 We can dominate it by all kinds of means.
09:02 So there is nothing like that.
09:03 But yes, what was happening earlier by this kind of an action, whenever the patrols met,
09:08 they were confronted, then like you saw in May 2020, that it would get violent.
09:13 And when it gets violent, then beating up each other and things of those kind occur.
09:17 So to avoid that situation, because...
09:19 We had, we had, no, no, no.
09:22 Yeah.
09:23 50 years of fisticuffs.
09:24 You know, literally, literally over 50 years of fisticuffs.
09:30 Absolutely.
09:31 I know, I recall from, which I brought out in my book also, China's Bloody Bulletless
09:38 Models, that in 1967, what really surprised us was how sensitive they become to body bags.
09:52 Their own body bags.
09:53 There is no denying the fact because not many people like what you have said are aware that
09:58 how much we were, we had an upper hand in 1967, though we may be totally on the back
10:04 foot in 1962.
10:05 But in 1967, we had a tremendous upper hand.
10:08 In 1986, we were on the back foot for no reason.
10:13 Other reasons, you know, concerning the government.
10:17 Yeah, other than military.
10:19 It was raw courage.
10:21 In '62, it was raw courage.
10:25 But you know, fighting to the last man, to the last bullet, it sounds very good.
10:31 But I think if it has to be done, it's disgraceful.
10:36 It's, you know, for a country to come to a stage where its army is, you know, falling
10:45 short of ammunition.
10:46 Anyway, we won't go into that.
10:49 But 1967 was a rude shock to the PLA.
10:54 So there is no denying the fact that the Chinese are very sensitive to body bags.
11:00 Firstly, after that one child wrong that they have, and when you say about 80 people of
11:05 the Chinese, that means 80 families have been badly affected in China.
11:09 So that's a huge number which the Chinese are unable to withstand.
11:13 So that's something.
11:14 Another thing that they are on the back foot is that they are a little now, I would say
11:18 chocolate soldier, a little more softer, being able to, not being able to operate at such
11:23 great altitudes.
11:24 And which we have a very big advantage.
11:25 You know, Jay, I see, as we look back, it is an army of exercises and visuals and lot
11:33 of, you know, parades.
11:35 This, I mean, showing off and a projection of power, but one which has no, you know,
11:46 it's not born on the ground.
11:47 So there is no denying the fact.
11:48 For a very simple reason that they seem to believe in preponderance of fire, preponderance
11:56 of missiles, preponderance of everything, show a lot of propaganda that we are number
12:02 one and that Chinese are nine feet tall.
12:05 Whereas on ground, they are neither of it.
12:07 Which I understand.
12:08 Their military leadership understand very well that the PLA soldier would not be able
12:15 to withstand when the combat fight starts.
12:18 That is very, very clear.
12:19 And I'm fully aware of that kind of a situation.
12:23 Now, after where we expected May 2020 to be able to go, you know, restore that condition
12:32 that existed as in May 2020, to a large extent, I would say, yes, it is quantate to some disengagement.
12:40 Now, what is important is what you just said, sir, that we've had 21 rounds of the co-commander
12:47 talks, that is the military level talks that have occurred, 21 rounds of them.
12:51 We have had 29 rounds of the WMCC, that is nothing but coordination and consultation
12:57 of meetings at the diplomatic level.
13:00 So despite all that, the feeling is that what exactly is transferred on the ground and what
13:07 difference do we see?
13:08 Talks, I would still say...
13:10 And you know, each round of talks, they are so lengthy, you know, they're very good.
13:17 The Chinese are very good at step by step.
13:24 So the reason for these long talks that occur is primarily because of language.
13:31 Firstly, it's all scripts which are written down.
13:34 And once the script is written down, they abide by their script.
13:37 So they'll read one line, you'll have an interpreter giving his explanation.
13:40 We have our own interpreter who understands.
13:43 If he's not saying or not interpreting it properly, then we interject to say, look,
13:49 what he said was this, whereas what you are interpreting is you're saying this.
13:52 So sometimes there are a lot of things that keep happening.
13:55 So you find that meetings do go right up to midnight sometimes, long meetings and at the
14:00 end of it, nothing.
14:01 And tell me, doesn't this amount to in so many talks, every time it's not, you know,
14:11 the matter is not being resolved, doesn't it amount to some kind of dadagiri?
14:16 With China, China respects strength.
14:19 That is, there is no denying fact that you have to deal with China from a position of
14:24 strength.
14:25 You cannot deal with them from a position of weakness.
14:27 To them, they are the center of the universe and everybody else are satellites.
14:31 And that is where the whole, until and unless today, what is their contention?
14:36 They are insisting that not just in Asia, but in the entire world, they're looking at
14:41 China being numero one, which they feel that today it may not be possible because the kind
14:47 of threat economically, militarily, politically, and also technologically, even in spheres
14:53 of high tech, whether it be artificial intelligence, whether it be space, whether it be cyber,
14:58 India is catching up and India is getting in there.
15:01 So they find that there's only country which can actually compete with them is India.
15:06 And now, if India has got closer to the Western world, and if that be so, then they find that
15:10 in the Indo-Pacific, where maximum trade there, which is almost equivalent of $5 trillion
15:16 trade which passes through the Indo-Pacific, they feel threatened that somewhere or the
15:20 other, and that feeling comes probably, I feel, having interacted with them on numerous
15:25 meetings with them, is the lack of language.
15:28 If the two sides can understand the language that they are talking, probably it is easier.
15:33 If I'm talking to an American, and much that he does not agree with me, I would still have
15:38 a sense of humor to convey to him.
15:40 He will have a sense of humor to convey to me.
15:42 At the end of it, we'll come to the table and say, "Yeah, yeah, you are right to some
15:44 extent, but look, let's do it this way.
15:47 It will help both of us to do it."
15:48 Whereas with Chinese, it's very difficult because he will, he with a poker face, he'll
15:52 be sitting there, he will say nothing.
15:54 At the end of it, he'll say, "I will go back and I will come back to you."
15:58 And that coming back is only the next meeting, which is again, a consequence.
16:03 That's something that we have to face with the Chinese.
16:06 But even if they were to understand, even if they were to do, Chinese in their mind,
16:11 the leadership in their mind, are being autocratic, communist, and seem to feel now no end of
16:17 themselves, that they feel that India is the only country which is not letting them occupy
16:24 the position that they deserve in the center of universe.
16:28 So that's a big, big psychological setback that the Chinese have.
16:32 You put it very well.
16:35 And yet, you know, and yet we, there is no doubt that we, our official line is that there
16:43 is not an inch of territory that they've occupied.
16:49 At the diplomatic level, we still, we still sort of, it appears we allow ourselves to
16:57 get bullied.
16:59 I don't know.
17:00 You know, I feel there is, that's my, you know, my position, my opinion may not matter
17:11 at all.
17:12 But having, you know, studied this, this matter from, right from the time we were in India,
17:21 at least if they are reminded, look, this is what you guys are under fire.
17:29 Would you like to get, with all this arming up, arming that you are doing, what is it
17:34 going to lead to?
17:35 Sir, there are certain, sir, we have to now, unfortunately, because first and foremost,
17:41 we are a democracy, a democracy has its own limitations.
17:44 We cannot get autocratic in a manner that at all times, we are not there to compete
17:49 with China on matters military, for a simple reason, that there's so much of poverty, there's
17:53 so much of education, so much of health, so many things got to be seen in India.
17:57 Unlike there, where it doesn't matter, because what is PLA?
18:01 It's an arm of the Communist Party.
18:04 It is not the Chinese army.
18:06 It's the arm of the Communist Party, whereas the Indian army is the arm of the nation to
18:11 ensure the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the country, irrespective of who comes
18:15 to power.
18:16 So that difference that exists between China and the rest of the world, Xi Jinping counts,
18:22 he's the last word.
18:23 He did not, he can suck his prime minister to say that, look, when I say I want this,
18:27 you have to cater for this.
18:29 Where you get your money from, I'm not concerned, this is what I want.
18:32 So Xi Jinping has a different outlook in life, whereas there are restrictions in a democracy.
18:38 But notwithstanding those restrictions in a democracy, we've gone a far way.
18:42 So we have to manage, because for China, USA is the enemy.
18:46 So whatever they are getting their arms, equipment, technology, is it due to be able to stand
18:54 up to America, not India?
18:56 Whereas for us, it is we have to stand up to China, not America.
19:00 So there's a lot we have to stand up to America, which spends over $800 billion on defense,
19:06 and the Chinese are spending approximately about $300 billion on defense.
19:10 We are not even spending $70 billion on defense, and of which about 60% go on various other
19:15 things.
19:16 So the actual modernization, there's a very little proportion, not more than 15% goes
19:20 into it.
19:21 So there's a lot that we have to manage.
19:23 But I would still grant to our country one great thing, that despite all the limitations
19:28 that we have, the troops that we have, the men that we have, are able to withstand such
19:34 impossible, you know, it's not easy to fight at altitudes of 20,000 feet, where it's difficult
19:41 to breathe, difficult to walk, difficult to eat.
19:43 And despite that, breathe, you know, solid blizzardous weather, snowfall, all kinds of
19:48 no oxygen, people find it so difficult to sleep, so difficult to eat, difficult to walk,
19:53 loss of memory, everything all associated with, our men still face it with a smile.
19:59 Believe me, sir, for years on, that I was there, I have never seen a Chinese soldier.
20:06 The Indian Army soldier has proved himself to be the best, I'm telling you, in the first
20:12 and second world wars, they acknowledge this.
20:16 They acknowledge this, even the Allies and the Axis powers also.
20:20 Absolutely.
20:21 We can undergo tremendous hardship, tremendous hardship, because for us, you know, the desire,
20:32 the motivation, the self-motivation, naam, namak, nishan, izzat, battalion, regiments,
20:37 everything is, you know, making sure that this boy is holding on.
20:43 For years on, I've never ever seen a Chinese helicopter, never.
20:46 I've not seen a Chinese helicopter at those heights ever in my entire service of 40 years.
20:51 I've never seen a Chinese helicopter, even though I've been there.
20:54 You said it.
20:55 And they'll come by vehicle.
20:56 Men also would be eight kilometers, 10 kilometers behind in a very fantastic, comfortable position.
21:01 Vehicles would be centrally heated till they came up.
21:04 So they are almost in a level, comfort level, which is, they cannot come out of it.
21:09 And therefore, it is very difficult for a Chinese soldier to match the Indian soldier.
21:13 But that doesn't make, that shouldn't make us complacent, because we, that, this is our
21:17 strength.
21:18 With that strength must come modernization.
21:20 With that strength must come, be able to match up to them, be able to tell them, yeah, to
21:26 be able to tell them that don't mess around with us.
21:29 If you mess around with us, you will also have bloody clothes.
21:32 Don't worry, we will not leave you.
21:34 So if once that deterrence, I wouldn't say deterrence from the point of view, but being
21:38 able to convey.
21:39 Reminded, they need to be, I think, reminded.
21:42 And because otherwise, anyway, they need to be reminded.
21:50 And otherwise, there's no end to these talks.
21:53 You know, there's no end to them.
21:54 Sir, talks are, I would still say, irrespective of nothing very much emerging, let's put nothing
22:01 very much emerging.
22:02 I'll give you two examples.
22:03 It's a line of communication which is kept alive.
22:06 Firstly, the line of communication.
22:08 Now like when I see them at, say, at the Maldu garrison, I saw them quite recently, I saw
22:15 them at Bumla, the troops that I met of the Chinese on that side.
22:19 I could feel that they were quite relaxed.
22:22 And the Chinese troops relaxed is an indication that there are orders coming to them from
22:26 top that relax, do not aggravate the situation.
22:29 Let's carry on the way it is.
22:31 So that's the first indication.
22:33 Otherwise, a Chinese are poker face.
22:35 He will not even talk to you, just stand straight, looking at you like a statue.
22:39 But it's not happening.
22:40 That is an indication that all these talks that are taking place, whether it is at the
22:44 military level, whether it is at the WACC or the diplomatic level, are definitely ensuring
22:50 or attempt to ensure that there is peace and tranquility along the LAC.
22:55 And despite the things, not the disengagement, not in the manner that we were looking at
23:00 it.
23:01 The aim is to have peace and tranquility and a soldier, you can imagine, sir, we all
23:06 are soldiers, what tension the commanding officer must have been.
23:10 Every day, he can't sleep because he doesn't know what will happen.
23:14 Jail Kulkarni, you know, you come out with a lot, you know, which you have a point where
23:22 you say, yes, the line of communication must be, lines of communication must be kept open.
23:31 And it's heartening to hear from you, from your recent visits, that you see a bit of
23:37 a change in the Chinese soldier, in the PLA soldier.
23:44 But all we want to try for is to get the PLA, the Chinese Communist Party to get back to
23:57 pre-May 2020.
23:58 So to a large extent, what you're saying that May 2020 status quo, because to a large extent,
24:08 maybe at patrol point 14, 15, 16, 17, we had the Galwan, we had the hot spring, we had
24:15 the Gogra, a lot, at the Pegang, so a lot has happened.
24:18 But yes, at Debsang and Demchok, it is not actually connected with May 2020, because
24:26 it is something, a legacy, which is continuing since 2011, 2013, when they came along the
24:31 Rekinala, they came in, went back.
24:33 So there's been a lot that has happened in those areas.
24:36 But what happens is, it is…
24:39 One word, Xi Jinping is being entertained by Mr. Modi in Gujarat.
24:48 This is what happens with the Chinese, is that, you know, unpredictable behavior, very,
24:53 very unpredictable.
24:54 In the sense, the body language of Xi Jinping, you can make out from the body language that
24:59 when he stands, it is with a view, when he wants something, you will find his body language
25:04 is different.
25:05 When he is wanting to exert, and you know, he will not even move, he will just shake
25:10 hands with a distance and be able to tell you, look, partner, you're inferior to me,
25:16 and I'm superior to you.
25:17 So this Asian behavior, which is there, deeply ingrained into the Chinese, of wanting to
25:24 have, you know, up and down, ki main bada hu, aur aap mere niche hain, if that is acceptable
25:30 to you, then I am willing to talk to you.
25:33 I am equal, but otherwise I will sit on the cot and you will sit on the floor.
25:38 But if I intend, want you to sit on the cot with me, then you have to accept that I am
25:44 superior than you.
25:45 India cannot do all that, sir.
25:46 India is also an old civilization, as much as the Chinese are.
25:50 And the threat that the Chinese feel from India is that the Indians are very hardworking,
25:55 they're technologically very savvy.
25:58 Very soon or later, they will catch up with the Chinese, and if the Chinese, irrespective
26:02 of their religion, because they're a trading nation, they are not a creative nation, they're
26:06 a trading nation.
26:07 And in trade with America, Europe, everybody starts imposing sanctions on them.
26:12 They will not be able to, because the huge factories that have been set up to be able
26:15 to cater for the entire world, those factories will go idle, and they will not have, they
26:20 will soon face unemployment, they will soon face problems within the country.
26:24 So what Xi Jinping has offered to his people is that a good life, and by 2049, a fantastic
26:30 numeral one, you are going to be the ruler, every Chinese, he's pumped the Chinese to
26:36 a large extent, and to that, every Chinese has accepted the surrender of his human rights,
26:42 he has accepted surrender of his own democracy, he's surrendered everything for a good life,
26:49 which Xi Jinping or the people's, the Communist Party of China is willing to offer.
26:54 So there's a quid pro quo, the Chinese Communist Party is willing to offer, which they have
26:58 shown.
26:59 Not that they're lying, or not that they've said, they've done it in the last 35, 40 years.
27:04 I've seen what Chinese were, and then I went recently to Beijing, I know what Chinese are.
27:09 So this kind of a transformation that has been seen in the Chinese, whether it is in
27:14 the infrastructure, whether it is in the outflow, whether it is in the dressing up, whether
27:18 it is in the eating, whether it is in the hotel, China is now has arrived, it is as
27:23 good as the United States of America.
27:26 This is what a Chinese was looking at.
27:28 Now, you can't find much of a difference between Taiwan, Hong Kong, and the mainland China.
27:33 So all of them are virtually intermixing and looking and talking and feeling.
27:38 Therefore, if they can offer to the men or to the people of China what they want to offer,
27:44 and the Chinese men, our population feels yes, the leadership is what they are saying
27:49 is willing to offer, they are willing to surrender, absolutely surrender to the organization.
27:54 If they say you will sleep at eight o'clock in the evening, they will all sleep at eight
27:58 o'clock in the evening.
27:59 Is it possible in India?
28:00 It is not possible in India.
28:02 So that is the difference.
28:03 So much that the leadership there is willing to give, tell, and do, and it is a good protocol.
28:11 The leadership expects men or the Chinese to surrender their rights to them for the
28:17 good life that they do want to offer.
28:20 What about us?
28:24 Do we keep accepting?
28:28 We know we are better.
28:29 Even they know we are better.
28:30 They are not very happy about where we have reached in our infrastructure build up, in
28:36 our, you know, whatever weaponry we have accumulated in the last couple of years.
28:44 They are also aware.
28:46 But the fact remains that the bullying is still on and all we can hope for, all we can
28:54 hope for and we must try to work towards is to get to a level.
29:01 Get to a level where...
29:02 So that is what surprises, that is exactly what surprises Chinese is that in a democracy
29:07 which they consider as madness, how is it that India is able to develop?
29:11 How is it that they are able to land on moon?
29:13 How is it that they are able to feed everyone?
29:14 How is it that they are able to move forward?
29:16 How is it that they are able to get technology?
29:18 How can they become the fifth largest economy?
29:20 How come in the next five, seven years they become the third largest economy?
29:23 So these are things which bother them and this is what the Chinese leadership feels
29:29 that the Chinese might start thinking in so much of freedom of so much of democracy, maybe
29:35 a little later, but they can also attain.
29:38 And it is not an autocracy or communist only that are able to do it.
29:42 So this kind of a feeling and fear is there in the Chinese.
29:47 Thank you, thank you, thank you for a lot of things which have been brought out and
29:57 I will, I only say that, well, there's another very, very mega election or the mother of
30:06 all elections, which we're going to see and maybe some things which haven't happened
30:12 earlier may happen now.
30:14 I don't know, I just leave it at that.
30:19 But as far as the armed forces are concerned, there should be no doubt that their modernization
30:31 and their equipping them with whatever they need must be done with utmost possible dispatch
30:39 so that we are not found wanting, because you never know how, what kind of a turn global
30:48 events may take for the PLA and the Indian army to actually, you know, that's something
30:57 we should not start thinking that it's not possible.
31:03 Certainly not.
31:04 Absolutely.
31:05 Absolutely.
31:06 They dislike strong leadership, though they themselves will follow strong leadership,
31:09 but they dislike strong leadership in India.
31:11 They would much like chaos in India, which suits them.
31:14 Of course, of course.
31:16 That's an old story.
31:18 We've had decades of it in the past.
31:23 Anyway, thank you very much.
31:25 - Thank you, sir. - All the best.
31:27 - Thank you, sir.