Is Speakman under fire? Where is Watson? Your questions answered after Sunderland 0-0 Bristol City
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00:00 Hello and welcome to another edition of On The Whistle.
00:15 Sunderland 0, Bristol City 0, it's happened.
00:17 Yeah it is.
00:18 It was a football match that happened on the Weir side this afternoon.
00:21 It won't live long in the memory but...
00:24 To be fair I'm going to go straight in with a question from Josh because I think he'll
00:26 probably get to the heart of it.
00:27 He says, "Just simple, how on earth did we not win?"
00:30 Which I think we've got to be fair, we were obviously very, very critical of Sunderland's
00:33 players on Monday.
00:37 They were much, much better today weren't they?
00:39 I thought that, first half especially, they probably should have been out of sight.
00:42 I thought Bristol City were really poor, which obviously helps their quality and possession
00:45 was very poor.
00:47 The intensity was much better, the pressing was really good.
00:49 I thought Ekwa had his best game for quite a while, which is nice to see because it's
00:53 been a bit frustrating this season.
00:54 I think first half especially, second half obviously was a much more even game.
00:58 There were some, I don't want to go overboard because they've drawn nil-nil.
01:02 That should be the base level performance.
01:05 Yeah absolutely, but I suppose it's important to acknowledge as well that having been very,
01:08 rightly so I think, critical on Monday, it was better.
01:11 There were some fairly encouraging signs.
01:13 Somebody on Twitter put to me, I think his name was Jim, and he summed it up magnificently.
01:17 He said that performance today was a microcosm of our season.
01:21 Early promise, couldn't finish off the chances, put them at me a little bit disappointed because
01:25 we didn't win.
01:26 I mean that game was a lot more, in terms of summing up the season, that was a lot more
01:30 like the Tony Mowbray era.
01:31 Do you know what I mean?
01:32 In terms of the performance was decent enough, had they had a bit more cutting edge in the
01:37 final third, then they would have got something out of the game.
01:39 I suppose that's a minor positive, that it was more like a Mowbray performance than a
01:44 Beals/Dodds performance.
01:45 I know we touched upon it after the Blackburn-Rovers game, but we haven't spoken about it for ages
01:49 because you don't when you get 105 or under, you tend to concentrate on the defence and
01:52 overall performance.
01:53 But the striking issue again, I just thought was really telling of them, there was two
01:56 on the bench and neither of them were trusted to come on at the moment to try and make a
01:59 difference.
02:00 I just think that is really telling at the moment.
02:02 Well listen, I know he's missed a couple of chances today so there might be a bit of criticism,
02:05 I don't know or whatever, but if you take the three games since Job's gone back up front,
02:09 really poor on Monday but so has literally every player on the team so you can't really
02:12 dwell on that too much.
02:13 But Job's been the best of the strikers by a long way hasn't he, from what we've seen.
02:17 And that is quite damning.
02:19 It sort of leads us on to my next question actually because Eddie's tweeted us asking
02:23 about Speakman's future and he makes the point about the two strikers not being ready to
02:29 get on the bench and that's a totally fair comment.
02:32 Listen, we've I think talked quite a lot about Christian Speakman on this video, on our podcast,
02:37 in our copy.
02:38 The season has been disastrous from Mulberry's sacking onwards, Speakman is in charge of
02:43 the football side, he has to be accountable for that and he has a factor in that.
02:48 What I will say is that getting rid of Christian Speakman will not change the ownership strategy,
02:52 it will not change the way that they make certain decisions and so for me that means
02:58 it's not the one thing that will change whether someone gets promoted next season, that's
03:01 my personal opinion.
03:02 You can have your opinions on Speakman and that's fine and certainly the recruitment
03:06 over the last few windows which has been significantly inferior to what has come before and that's
03:10 definitely fair to point it out I think.
03:11 There needs to be accountability for that but I personally don't look at it as going
03:14 and changing Christian Speakman, it's the thing that will make something better.
03:17 I think the strategy from the very, very top needs to be tweaked and once that is sort
03:22 of related to Christian Speakman then let's see what he does, let's see if he can bring
03:26 in those players when the parameters change.
03:28 The other thing I will say is he needs to get the next head coach appointment, absolutely
03:31 right because I suspect that we know that Mulberry fell out a bit with the board level
03:38 and I think that made a big impact on the timing of the decision which wasn't ideal
03:41 but Bale ultimately, Speakman has to be accountable for that.
03:47 Speakman's made missteps this season really, it's fizzling out and that's due to decisions
03:53 made at middle management and right to the top.
03:55 Obviously Speakman works under the parameters at board level that are set by the ownership
03:59 as you've just said.
04:03 He's become a sort of very divisive figure without really trying to be, he doesn't say
04:06 divisive things, he says things that seem to provoke a reaction.
04:10 Just looking at our latest YouTube video after the Blackburn-Ulvers game, you had people
04:13 saying we were really balanced on Speakman, you had people saying that we weren't harsh
04:16 enough so I think it's one of those really where if you've got your opinion, you've got
04:20 your opinion and that's it.
04:21 The one thing I will say about the head coach thing is does Speakman have full authority
04:26 on that head coach sort of appointment because we've seen in the past with whom's fancied
04:30 and whom's not fancied, ultimately that will come from above as well.
04:34 I do wonder about the decision making process, I'm not trying to give Speakman an out, 100%
04:38 made many a mistake this season but I just get the feeling that for all the good structures
04:43 that have been put in at Sunderland over the past couple of years, sometimes when it comes
04:47 to the big decisions it can be a little bit muggled.
04:49 You see that off the pitch as well, I have people talk about ad nauseum, the Black Cats
04:54 bar, finger pointing, who signed off on that, when it comes to the big things that need
04:59 to sign with Sunderland sometimes it goes a little bit awry, I don't know whose fault
05:02 that is.
05:03 It's Sunderland.
05:04 Yeah, yeah, and I do think like, Storm Kathleen is wreaking havoc on the whistle.
05:12 Look at us brave, brave, brave fellows, carrying on after our no-mail draw and amidst woeful
05:18 conditions on weir side we're still doing our video.
05:21 The point I made with Speakman is like, especially this season, the recruitment has been worse
05:24 than at any point since he got over, the Beale decision was a massively incorrect one, you
05:30 could even argue that Stickman and Dodds hasn't worked, but the one thing I will say is if
05:33 the strategy doesn't change and if the strategy isn't tweaked and you replace the sporting
05:37 director you're essentially asking another person to come in and work miracles on a limited
05:42 budget against a premiership, you know, teams coming down from the Premier League.
05:44 That's the one point I would make, is that I don't think changing one person is going
05:48 to make a huge difference if you don't make subtle changes to the strategy and that's
05:51 not, I really don't want people to think we're trying to give Speakman an out because
05:53 especially the Michael Beale decision, I'm not convinced how much the timing of Robbery's
05:57 departure was his fault and so I give him some slight leeway for that, but ultimately
06:01 as a sporting director he has to be accountable for Michael Beale.
06:05 Today was much more like, especially the first half, what we came to expect from Sundman,
06:08 they played some decent stuff, they created some chances, I quite enjoyed watching them,
06:12 second half didn't quite sustain it, but there is no reason why Sundman weren't able to play
06:15 like that for the last three months.
06:16 That is, yes injuries were a factor, but if that's decisions from the Football Club they'd
06:20 stop that and they are accountable for that, I don't want to get that mixed up with that.
06:24 It's a big debate I think.
06:26 It's a massive debate and I think as managers, you know, we can have differences of opinion
06:31 on this, I don't think just because we're not shouting 'Blue Murder Sack' and that means
06:35 we haven't criticised them, I think if you look back over our copy, over our stuff on
06:38 the Rob Podcasts and the Echo website, even over the On The Whistle videos, there's plenty
06:42 of fair criticism there, I think sometimes, you know, if somebody doesn't agree with you
06:47 on one particular issue, doesn't mean actually that they haven't sort of criticised as well,
06:51 I think some of it has to be fair, anyway that's just a, that's a back to the questions.
06:55 So we've got another one which is on a similar theme, which I think we did speak about on
06:59 the last one, but let's get anywhere.
07:00 Stephen says 'Simply not good enough, we can spin all the positives we want but it's not
07:03 good enough'.
07:04 Why are KLD and Speakman and Haydn, listen I...
07:06 Get a round of applause from the fans!
07:10 I do think it's been a very good video, I have to say.
07:12 Long overdue, somebody giving us a round of applause.
07:15 Listen we said on Monday that we think it's really important that the season is addressed
07:20 and there's some accountability from people at the top and I definitely think we need
07:23 to hear from Kirill Ljubodrevic at the end of the season, I think that's really, really
07:25 important so I just want to say Stephen...
07:27 The season was killed in January, it was killed.
07:29 Killed dead, we didn't know it at the time necessarily but it, like looking back hindsight
07:33 2020, the season was dead in January, which is from where we were last season, it's simply
07:37 not good enough.
07:38 So we want to say Stephen, we don't think today was good enough and 0-0 draw was quite
07:41 tough to watch, we just felt it was slightly better than losing 5-1 to Blackburn.
07:45 That's not to say it's good enough, I just felt that was a bit more of a summon performance
07:49 today and yes we agree with you that the Christians, especially Kirill, need to speak to fans.
07:54 I think for large, I mean you do have to sort of call things as you see, but for large parts
07:58 of that game, especially in the first half, I thought some of them were pretty good.
08:01 As you mentioned Bristol City, maybe a little bit under par, but you know Ballard off the
08:05 line, Ole Hiri had a blinder in goal, Jack Clarke, I think if Jack Clarke is maybe two
08:09 or three more games in to his comeback I think he probably buries one of those chances.
08:12 Bradley Dacker, I think did Ole Hiri tip that onto the bar very possibly?
08:16 No I don't think so, but he did Alcice at the other end which was an unbelievable save.
08:20 Alcice at the other end, so it feels like, and it's a shame in a way because I feel like
08:23 if Sunderland had got that win today it would have gone a long way to repairing the damage
08:27 from that 5-1 loss to Blackburn, which was shambolic, it was poor, one of the worst defeats
08:32 ever at the stadium really in terms of a group not really turning up.
08:36 A group that we're all very fond of as well, which I think is the most hurtful thing, it's
08:40 a shame that they didn't get that win in Golden Day, but I think for me you couldn't fault
08:44 the attitude, the application and the fact that they're actually still playing for Mike Brod.
08:47 Yeah, a couple of other things I just wanted to mention before we go,
08:51 Addy Ulisse looked excellent when he came on, if he stays fit and we can get Dennis
08:55 Outing back that's a game changer for Sunderland for next season because I think they're two
08:58 top end Championship full backs and if we go back to sort of since Ulisse's injury in January,
09:04 they've been huge misses haven't they? It's been a big factor in this team, we've never
09:08 quite found a solution at left back have we? And again that does come down to recruitment,
09:11 that's a January window as well. We play West Brom in a couple of weeks and just thinking
09:15 back to Dennis Surgan's brace to get Sunderland into the playoffs last season was absolutely
09:20 brilliant, he's a fantastic player. Adji as well, I think he gives height, we saw it when
09:26 he was brought straight back in for the game against Newcastle how highly he's rated, physical
09:30 presence, I think he compliments Clark on the left as well. I think Yelder perhaps struggled
09:35 today, I don't think he's a left back, I think we're judging him as a left back, I'm not
09:38 sure he's a left back, I think he's probably going to be more of a centre back long term.
09:42 I liked him after he debuted against Middlesbrough but he's had a tough time. He'd prefer centre
09:47 back, he's said that to the media hasn't he? Sunderland have had a tough time so I'm loath
09:50 to write him off really, he did struggle today, I think he was probably someone's worst player
09:53 but you know, it's not his position so what can you do? If you're asking me to do your
09:58 job Phil I'd never be able to do it. Nobody would ever ask you to do your job James, nobody
10:03 would ever ask you to do your job, come on now. One last one. One last one, we were chatting
10:08 there in the press conference with Mike Dodds, basically asking the question about how much
10:12 is he going to look to get young players in over the last few games, a very young player
10:15 and I think it's a really interesting debate, I want to get your thoughts on it. Basically
10:18 what Dodds said to me in the press conference yesterday and he reiterated again today was
10:20 'listen, after Monday's game especially, I feel a responsibility to get some performances
10:25 and results out of this group and I'm not going to experiment, I'm not going to give
10:28 players opportunities, I'm not going to give them just so we can have a look at them, they
10:31 have to earn their way into the team'. What do you think? I think he's got a very valid
10:37 point and I think it would have been a little easier had they not lost 5-1 against Blackburn
10:41 and Rovers to maybe ease some of those players in. We've seen them on the bench that haven't
10:44 been brought on, the circumstances in those games haven't been right to bring them on
10:48 either because some of them have typically been drawing or losing or not doing too well,
10:51 so I completely get that. In terms of earning their way into the team, I watch a little
10:56 bit of the 21s here and there, so does my colleague Joe Nicholson and then you get the
11:00 highlights when they're away from home. I think Tommy Watson's banging on the door personally,
11:04 scoring goals. Harrison Jones has come back from an injury, he's capped number side under
11:08 21s against Leicester a couple of weeks ago, he got two goals and then an assist. I think
11:12 there are players there banging on the door. I do take his point, but if not now, when?
11:16 Because there's nothing really to play for. The one thing he did say is 'I'm picking
11:19 Chris Rigg every game'. Who deserves a mention, I can't believe I didn't mention him today,
11:23 but he was very good. And that's totally fair. And it's a valid point, he is picking Chris
11:26 Rigg. I agree with you in terms of that. The one thing I will say with Watson is we know
11:30 he hasn't had much training time because he's been playing under 21s off the back of an
11:33 injury. But I agree with you, I think he's the one where I think, especially with potentially
11:38 Clark going in the summer, let's have a look at him. I hope he gets a chance, but I think
11:44 Dodds had to put out the strongest team he possibly could today. I think so. But I would
11:48 like to see Watson get in the squad. But for me today, obviously Clark, he's played 45
11:52 minutes, he's coming back from an ankle ligament injury, which is not insignificant. He played
11:56 90 minutes today, he was down on his haunches towards the last 10 minutes of the game. I
12:00 know it was 0-0, I know some of them needed a result and couldn't really sacrifice that
12:05 left-hand side of the pitch. But Tommy Watson on the bench, comes on for the last 10 minutes,
12:08 see what he can do. With Clark coming back from an ankle ligament injury, I think that
12:13 probably would have been smart, but it's not my job.
12:15 The other thing I would say is that with the options he has, he had a lead bar out entirely
12:19 today, which I was really surprised at. And there's no injury there either. Surely one
12:23 of the defeated knee or the defenders. I know Stiles can play midfield as well, but surely
12:27 one of those players can play on the bench.
12:30 This is another question I actually wanted to ask you as well, Phil, because Berstow's
12:33 on the bench, and this is not a dig at Mason Berstow, and it's not me singling him out,
12:37 but he is a known player, he is on loan. I know Mike Dodds might make some argument that
12:42 tactically it's better to have Berstow on the bench, but why not have Harrison Jones
12:46 on the bench over Berstow, or Tommy Watson on the bench over Berstow, or one of our own
12:50 players. Is there some sort of clause where he's got to be involved in the matchday squad?
12:53 I don't know. It just feels a bit weird to me. Are they going to try? And another question,
12:56 are they going to try and sign him in the summer? Because they've wanted to try and
12:59 sign him last summer. I think that's a bizarre situation.
13:02 It looks strange when you don't bring him on at nil-nil. I think that's more the point.
13:06 If you do use him, I think that's slightly different. But I take your point. I certainly
13:10 think that, especially, I can understand why Dodds took the way he did today, needing to
13:13 win, hardly take Clarke off when you know what he can do.
13:15 No, it is.
13:16 But I do agree with you, and I think it's really important. I'd really like to see Watson,
13:18 especially, you mentioned Harrison Jones as well, I think another player who's done really
13:22 well, deserves a chance before the end of the season.
13:24 Oli Bainbridge as well, left back, right back.
13:26 I do agree with you. It's nothing personal with Mason Bates whatsoever, but it comes
13:30 to a certain point where you're not going to learn much and you're probably not going
13:35 to benefit much from including him at someone's expense. Will they sign him in the summer?
13:39 I think, would that be right for any party?
13:41 No.
13:41 Not on what we've seen.
13:44 Mason's a young guy who came in with a lot of pressure and I sympathise with him for
13:48 that, but does everyone not need a bit of a fresh start in the summer? I think that's
13:51 my feeling. But I agree with you. Certainly, moving into the last two or three games,
13:55 I think surely it's time to give some of those youngsters a bit of a chance.
13:58 I just want Mike Dodds to play some of those youngsters because I wrote a piece saying
14:01 the five players that Mike Dodds may have played towards the end of the season. So I'm
14:04 going to look a bit silly if he doesn't play any of them.
14:05 There we go. You wondered how Sunderland nil, Bristol City nil was going to be all
14:09 about James Copley, but we've managed to work it out. We've managed to work it out.
14:13 Well, I think that's 40 minutes. I wonder how many people have stuck with us from minute
14:18 zero to 14.
14:19 If you want, I'd doff my cap to you.
14:21 Thank you very much. If you've sat through 90 minutes of that and 40 minutes of us,
14:24 then you've done very, very well. So listen, thanks James. It's been a pleasure as always.
14:30 Thanks everyone for watching. We will be back with some form of On The Whistle after Leeds
14:34 on Tuesday night. We will see how things go, but there definitely will be some form of
14:38 reaction. And then we are away at West Brom next weekend.
14:41 Cheers guys.
14:45 Let's see.
14:47 [BLANK_AUDIO]