It’s been exactly 400 years since 1624, when the Dutch East India Company landed in Taiwan. People call it the first time Taiwan truly came into contact with the Western world, but most people in the Netherlands today barely know about this history.
On this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Reece Ayers sits down with Dutch author Joyce Bergvelt. They first zoom in on her book “Lord of Formosa,” which dramatizes the Dutch colonists’ expulsion from Taiwan, then zoom out to look at the publishing world’s interest in Taiwan globally.
On this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Reece Ayers sits down with Dutch author Joyce Bergvelt. They first zoom in on her book “Lord of Formosa,” which dramatizes the Dutch colonists’ expulsion from Taiwan, then zoom out to look at the publishing world’s interest in Taiwan globally.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 Welcome to Zoom In Zoom Out,
00:13 your global look at news from Taiwan.
00:15 I'm Reece Ayers.
00:17 Exactly 400 years ago in the year 1624,
00:20 Taiwan made contact with the Western world
00:22 through the Dutch East India Company.
00:25 These merchants from the Netherlands established
00:27 a port city that would become present day Tainan.
00:30 At their peak, they occupied nearly half of Taiwan Island
00:33 for almost 50 years.
00:35 But fast forward to today,
00:36 few people in the Netherlands
00:37 remember this colonial history.
00:39 To bring this story to a wider audience,
00:41 a dramatized account of the Dutch occupation
00:44 and their expulsion was published
00:46 under the title "Lord of Formosa."
00:49 So to discuss Taiwan and the Netherlands'
00:51 long and complex history,
00:53 and about writing a book about Taiwan
00:54 and getting that book published internationally,
00:57 I'm joined today by Joyce Burgvelt,
01:00 author of "Lord of Formosa."
01:02 Hello Joyce, thanks for joining us.
01:05 Thank you.
01:06 So we'll start by zooming in on your book,
01:08 "Lord of Formosa."
01:10 So first, what's your book about?
01:12 "Lord of Formosa" is a historical novel
01:14 and it tells the story of the time
01:17 that the Dutch occupied Taiwan in the 17th century
01:20 and how they got kicked out again after 38 years.
01:23 That's basically it.
01:24 To spoil the end of the book,
01:26 how were the Dutch eventually expelled from Taiwan?
01:30 They were driven out by what the Dutch called
01:32 a son of a pirate,
01:33 and he was a Zheng Chenggong,
01:35 or otherwise known as Kwa Shinga.
01:38 And he crossed over from Taiwan straight from China,
01:41 where he was actually fleeing from the Qing army.
01:45 And he came to Formosa, which was his retreat,
01:48 the only place he could go to.
01:50 But the Dutch were there,
01:51 and so he had to confront them.
01:53 And they besieged the place for like nine months,
01:56 the fortress, Fortress Hilandia.
01:58 And then they drove out the Dutch.
02:01 The Dutch eventually had to surrender after nine months,
02:04 and they drove them out.
02:05 That's pretty much a summary of it.
02:08 And where did you first come across this story?
02:10 And what inspired you to tell this story again?
02:13 I lived here when I was a teenager in the '80s,
02:16 and I was studying at Shida University.
02:18 And a student asked me where I was coming from.
02:21 And I said, "Warsche Groningen."
02:23 And she said, "Ah, you're Dutch.
02:25 Your people colonized us back in the 17th century,
02:28 and we kicked you out again, ha ha."
02:30 So I thought, what?
02:32 I couldn't believe that.
02:32 I was really surprised.
02:33 I didn't know.
02:34 And what are some of the challenges that you faced
02:37 in the process of writing this book?
02:38 A book that's about, I assume a lot of the research
02:41 would have been in another language, in Chinese.
02:45 You're writing about a place
02:46 that's halfway across the world.
02:47 What were some of the challenges?
02:49 I did most of my research when I was writing my dissertation
02:52 back in the '80s.
02:53 So in that sense, I was quite limited to books
02:57 that I could find in the library.
02:59 And later on, when I was writing the novel,
03:02 I had internet, and there was additional material.
03:05 In that sense, I didn't really experience
03:08 that many challenges.
03:10 There was, the only thing is that the story focuses
03:14 on Tsing-Tsung Gung and the Dutch,
03:16 and I didn't have any information
03:18 on the indigenous population,
03:19 because that was something that was very neglected.
03:21 Very few sources about it,
03:23 because there was no interest in them.
03:25 There was far more focus on the Chinese population of Taiwan
03:28 for political reasons, of course.
03:30 So in that sense, that was the only thing
03:32 that I couldn't include in that book at the time.
03:35 Yeah.
03:36 So in the process of writing "Lord of Formosa,"
03:39 or in the years since,
03:40 have you developed any new perspectives or ideas
03:43 about Dutch-Taiwanese relationships?
03:46 The Taiwanese are, they're far more focused
03:49 on the part of history,
03:50 because for them it's very important.
03:52 It was like the beginning of a new era,
03:54 and when the Dutch came, things changed.
03:56 I mean, it wasn't a united land.
03:58 The people were divided into tribes.
04:00 And I think that they recognized that
04:02 as a very significant part of their history.
04:04 For the Netherlands, not so much,
04:06 because they barely knew that we were there.
04:08 That's one of the reasons why I wrote it,
04:10 because people didn't know that we were there,
04:12 and I tried to educate the Dutch
04:16 about that part of their forgotten colonial history.
04:19 Do you think it's partially the fault
04:21 of perhaps the Dutch education system
04:23 that people weren't aware of this part
04:27 of their own history for the longest time?
04:29 I do think that's really a factor.
04:31 I think what's more effective is the fact
04:32 that they lost Formosa in a very embarrassing way,
04:37 because the last governor of Formosa, Frederik Coyette,
04:41 he did warn the board of directors in the Netherlands
04:44 and his superiors in what is now Jakarta,
04:47 where the headquarters was of the Dutch East India Company.
04:51 So they knew what was happening,
04:52 but they weren't listening to him.
04:53 They thought he was a coward, that he was just an idiot,
04:57 and all they were interested in was money and trade,
05:00 and they didn't understand what Governor Coyette
05:04 was trying to tell them about.
05:06 And so they missed the warning signs,
05:08 and Coyette was left by himself to defend the island,
05:13 and that wasn't enough.
05:14 So at the time, the Dutch East India Company
05:17 was one of the most powerful naval forces
05:20 in the world at that time,
05:21 and they were actually kicked out
05:24 by what they called the son of a Chinese pirate.
05:25 So the whole thing was very embarrassing for them.
05:28 And Formosa was a very lucrative colony,
05:31 so it cost them a fortune, the loss of the colony.
05:33 So in that sense, it was a huge failure,
05:37 and they wanted to forget about it as soon as possible.
05:39 They focused more on the Dutch glory period,
05:42 about the wars that they did won,
05:44 but it was just something embarrassing
05:49 they wanted to forget about.
05:50 - And how would you say,
05:52 what's the state of Dutch-Taiwan relations today?
05:55 Are there more people that are aware of this history now?
05:58 - Yes, absolutely.
05:59 I think that's probably because Taiwan's become
06:02 much more of a major player in the world
06:05 with the semiconductor industry.
06:06 So the focus is far more on Taiwan now
06:09 than it was, say, like even five or 10 years ago,
06:12 especially with the geopolitical situation that's going on.
06:14 The focus is more on Taiwan, interest is more in Taiwan,
06:18 and people are now becoming more aware of where it is,
06:22 what it stands for, that it's a democracy.
06:24 And I think that awareness is something
06:27 that's only become a part, like, over the past few years.
06:34 - So tackling a complex historical drama
06:37 like the Dutch occupation of Taiwan
06:39 is no easy task at any time,
06:42 but you wrote this book back in 2010
06:45 at a time when Taiwan was much less featured
06:48 in international conversation and international media.
06:51 So we'd like to zoom in now
06:53 and look at the publishing industry more generally
06:56 and discover if there's now maybe more of an appetite
06:59 for Taiwanese stories.
07:01 So back when you finished your manuscript around 2010,
07:04 what was the pitching process for your book?
07:07 Did you already have a publisher in mind
07:09 when you were writing the story?
07:10 What was the process?
07:12 - Well, the thing is that I wrote in English initially.
07:15 The reason for that was that I was educated in the UK
07:19 and I'd been educated in English-speaking schools
07:21 since I was like 10 years old.
07:23 That's why I wrote in English,
07:25 but I was living in the Netherlands, so that was tricky.
07:28 And I approached a literary agent
07:31 who did work with publishers abroad
07:35 and they were quite interested.
07:36 They were asking me like, "What's it about?"
07:39 So that was the first 50 pages.
07:41 And they read it, the first 50 pages,
07:44 and they were very impressed.
07:45 They liked it.
07:46 And they offered me a contract on the spot.
07:48 But things changed then because what they did
07:50 is they took my unpublished manuscript,
07:53 took it to the States to try and pitch it to publishers.
07:57 But that was in the period when the whole publishing industry
07:59 was dropping because of the financial crisis,
08:02 so that wasn't working out.
08:04 And I saw what was happening.
08:06 I already seen it coming.
08:07 And when they told me like, "Sorry,
08:09 after we've tried for one and a half years,
08:11 we're going to stop looking now,"
08:13 I'd already made a short list for myself
08:17 of publishers that I could approach myself.
08:19 And I found a publisher in the Netherlands
08:21 who was specialized in colonial history
08:24 and historical novels.
08:28 And that was a perfect match in a sense.
08:31 It was pretty mutual and it was quite quick.
08:34 The deal was made, so they took me on.
08:36 And I did have to translate the Dutch first.
08:39 So that was a bit tricky.
08:41 - And you did that yourself?
08:42 - I did it myself, yeah.
08:44 - And there was a decent gap between
08:46 when the book was finished
08:48 and when it got published in English and in Dutch.
08:51 What was the time there?
08:54 - That was about three years between the Dutch
08:57 and the English version.
08:58 I had a friend of mine, my cousin in the UK,
09:02 she's a very smart girl,
09:04 and I asked her to proofread the English version for me
09:06 because I really wanted to do something with it.
09:08 My Dutch publisher wasn't doing anything with it.
09:11 And when she read, proofread it,
09:14 I asked her, "Would you mind putting something
09:17 on Goodreads even about unpublished manuscripts?"
09:22 Yeah, yeah, sure, she did.
09:24 And I used that and I found a site on Facebook called,
09:29 I think it was called We All Love Books About Taiwan.
09:32 And I shared it there.
09:35 And five minutes later, I got a message
09:38 from Michael Cannings from Canfor Press.
09:41 And he asked me, "Do you have a publisher yet?"
09:43 I said, "No."
09:45 "Can we see it?"
09:46 "Yes."
09:47 And so I sent it to them and the rest is history.
09:50 So that was how the English version came about.
09:53 - At any point in this process,
09:55 be it with the English or the Dutch version,
09:58 did anybody kind of pull you aside
09:59 and recommend that maybe you don't pursue a subject
10:03 that's so politically sensitive
10:04 or was that never a conversation?
10:06 - No, no, people were only encouraging.
10:09 They were fascinated because it was such an unknown thing.
10:12 People didn't know about it.
10:13 No, everybody encouraged me.
10:15 I think the book had many champions,
10:16 especially the English version.
10:18 It was very well received here.
10:21 And like I said, it has many champions.
10:24 So I was very lucky and grateful.
10:26 - And what was the response when the book came out?
10:29 How did readers react?
10:31 - In a very good way.
10:33 I was runner-up for the Asian Book of the Year Award in 2019.
10:39 And press gave it very good reviews.
10:43 I was very lucky.
10:44 And the public, I got really also sometimes
10:47 emotional reviews from people from Taiwan
10:49 that they were emotional to see.
10:51 That one lady wrote to me on Facebook
10:53 to say that her son was reading this book in English.
10:58 And she was amazed that it actually took
10:59 a foreign person like me to teach her son
11:03 about the real history.
11:05 And she was very grateful for me.
11:07 - And the book has now been translated also into Chinese.
11:11 What was the process there
11:12 and what was the motivation behind
11:14 getting it into Chinese language?
11:16 - It was quite difficult to find a publisher at first
11:18 because when the Dutch version came out,
11:20 I had contacts of mine who were connected with Taiwan.
11:25 And they suggested you should try and get a publisher.
11:27 And we tried, but I think it was too early then
11:30 'cause we talked to a number of publishers
11:33 who we, in hindsight, we know had ties
11:36 with Chinese publishers and they were careful.
11:38 And I think the time wasn't right for it yet.
11:40 So that sort of like fizzled out.
11:43 But after the English version came out,
11:46 a Taiwanese friend of mine, she said like,
11:48 "Let me try, I have contacts."
11:51 And she contacted the Chiang Mai Press.
11:53 She knows somebody there
11:55 and she had to deal with in two weeks.
11:57 So that went really quick.
11:59 So yeah.
12:00 - Do you think that there's more demand
12:02 for Taiwanese stories because of an increase in interest
12:05 or is it because that there are more writers
12:07 choosing to write about Taiwan these days?
12:10 - I think initially I would say
12:12 that there's probably more of a focus on Taiwan
12:16 and therefore more interest
12:18 in the other aspects of Taiwan as well.
12:19 Culture aspect, literature aspects.
12:21 And Taiwan has a great deal of talent in that field.
12:25 Many, there's some very good Taiwanese writers about
12:28 and they're being given a chance
12:29 to have their work translated into English.
12:31 So I think that all has to do with each other.
12:33 Yes, it's all connected.
12:35 - And right now we're at the
12:38 Taipei International Book Exhibition.
12:40 You've been invited as part of the
12:43 Guests of Honours, the Netherlands.
12:45 What does this event mean for you?
12:49 What are you kind of hoping to get out of it?
12:51 - Well, some of the authors who have joined the delegation,
12:54 they're very, very big.
12:55 I mean, they're like the writers at the moment
12:58 and that makes me immensely proud
12:59 and also makes me feel very humble to be part of it.
13:02 So in that sense, I don't have that,
13:04 my, what you call it, the editions,
13:07 they're not as, I didn't sell as many books
13:09 as they have, might have,
13:10 but I think I see this, the fact that I'm here,
13:13 I see that as a form of success.
13:15 I think it's amazing.
13:16 - And I guess finally, what's next for Lord of Formosa
13:21 or any other future projects that you've got?
13:25 - I'm currently cooperating with somebody
13:27 to work on a graphic novel.
13:29 And that's, the graphic novel focuses on
13:32 a specific period that takes part in Lord of Formosa
13:35 at the very end when the Dutch colonists have to flee
13:38 from the Chinese army, which have invaded the island.
13:42 And this man wrote, in the 17th century, he wrote a diary.
13:46 And we're trying to bring that diary to life
13:50 in the form of a graphic novel.
13:52 So it's very exciting, yeah.
13:54 - Do you think that there's potential for this
13:56 to become a video medium, your stories?
13:59 - We're talking about it, so it's possible.
14:01 I hope so.
14:02 - We'll keep our eyes peeled for a Netflix deal.
14:05 - Okay.
14:06 - Well, thanks so much for joining us today, Joyce.
14:07 - Thank you.
14:08 - This has been Zoom In Zoom Out.
14:11 I've been Ree Sayers.
14:13 For more stories from Taiwan and around the world,
14:15 you can follow Taiwan Plus on social media.
14:18 Thanks, and we'll see you next time.
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