Unpacked: S3, E1: The 25 Most Exciting Places to Travel in 2024

AFAR

In this episode of "Unpacked by AFAR," we talk about best places to travel this year, whether you want to chase eclipses, drink Uruguayan wine, or discover the coolest cities in Europe.  Every year, AFAR puts out an annual "Where to Go" list in the magazine and online. And this year is no exception. From the peat bogs of Estonia to the kite festivals of Weifang, China, to the waters of Fiji, this year's list of 25 places is robust, thoughtful, and deeply inspiring. (Not that we're biased or anything . . . . )  In this episode, the three editors who helped craft the list join host Aislyn Greene to talk about how and why they chose the places on the list, which ones they have personally visited, and their predictions for the year ahead.  Read the episode here: https://rebrand.ly/o71n6w4  Discover more episodes of the Unpacked by AFAR podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked  ---- CONNECT WITH AFAR Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com  Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters  Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia

Transcript

00:00 Hey everyone, and welcome to the third season of Unpacked, a podcast by afar.

00:04 I'm Aislinn, and as you can probably tell by this giant microphone in front of my face,

00:08 I host the show. Every week on the podcast, we unpack a different tricky topic in travel,

00:15 and this week is no exception. This is Unpacked.

00:25 Hi everyone, welcome to Unpacked. Welcome back to Unpacked. Thanks so much for having us. We're so

00:31 excited to be here to talk about where to go. I know, and you are fresh off making this list

00:37 happen. Burned into our brains. We're all very excited for 2024 to happen so we can start taking

00:43 these trips we've been writing and editing about for months. Amazing. Well, before we start talking

00:48 about the list, I'd love to just start with where we are in the world. Hi, I'm Sarika Bansal. I am

00:54 the editorial director. I'm based in Nairobi, Kenya. Also, just as an FYI, there's been a

00:59 countrywide power outage for the last 24 plus hours now. So I have a bit of a cobbled setup

01:07 right now. Luckily, we do have like a good solar power backup and everything, but I feel very like,

01:15 I'm glad I'm here by the string of my teeth. It is very impressive that you're here,

01:21 given all of that. Thank you. And Billy, how about you? Hi, I'm Billy Cohen, executive editor,

01:29 and I'm based in New York. And you have power. And we have power. Yeah. Great. Yeah. It's not 2003.

01:36 And it's not summer, right? Where everything, there are a ton of brownouts in the city. But

01:42 yeah, seems to be doing okay. We have construction though. So if you hear any of that out out of my

01:46 back window, that's what that will be. And Tim, that leaves you. Hi, I'm Tim Chester. I'm deputy

01:54 editor. Yeah, I'm in a very sunny, power filled Southern California, Thousand Oaks near LA,

02:00 where I always am when we do these. I thought I was a traveler, but I always seem to be at home

02:04 when it's podcast time. So yeah. We need to plan the next recording for when you're somewhere

02:09 really fascinating. Maybe someplace on the list. Yeah. All right. Well, let's dig into this

02:17 wonderful list that you've put together. I mean, it's a big one. How did you approach this this

02:22 year? What was your mindset going into it? I think a couple of things that we tend to look

02:28 for when we start getting pitches in are, of course, there's just no shortage of great places

02:35 to go ever. And I know that these lists can sometimes feel a little bit random. One of the

02:41 things that we really try to filter for is like what's new in a place or what places are really

02:46 having a moment. And that can be one of many things. If there's a cultural opening or if

02:51 there's something exciting happening regarding conservation, or if there's just some big event

02:57 happening that is a reason to go specifically next year, that's one thing that we really typically

03:03 try to look for. And then we also really are looking to get a good geographical mix. So,

03:10 you know, we don't want to just focus a bunch of places in Europe, but, you know, really want to

03:13 try to get around the globe and give people reasons to go maybe back to places that they've already

03:19 been and also consider some places in the world that they may not have ever heard of. And I think

03:24 our list has a nice mix of both of those. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, 100 percent. My favorite part

03:30 of making the list and working on this, apart from when the issues just left the building, is

03:34 right at the beginning when we solicit pitches. And we have writers and contributors all around

03:40 the world in all sorts of places. And getting back in touch with them, finding out where they are,

03:44 where they're recommending, what they're excited about. We kind of get all these ideas in like well

03:49 over a hundred, a couple of hundred ideas, and divide them up by continent and then have a look

03:55 at them together. And it's just really interesting to sort of take the pulse of the travel writer

03:59 community and see what's exciting everyone. And then the hard work of kind of narrowing it down

04:04 into a, you know, smaller list comes in. Yeah. And I love that we're working with writers and

04:13 our staff who've actually been in these places with their feet on the ground. Some of them live

04:17 in these places. So we get all these pitches and we get all these ideas. And sometimes they're

04:22 locations that surprise us because maybe we wouldn't have thought of that. But because that

04:27 person is very familiar with that location, they're able to give a new spin on it that we think is

04:34 really interesting and will be really interesting to travelers as well. I love that. I love that

04:40 there's so much knowledge and kind of intimate experience with these places going into the list.

04:44 Tim, you mentioned it started as a pretty big list. And this year we have 25 destinations on

04:52 the list, which still feels like a lot. How did you wind up with 25? Well, it couldn't be 24 for 24.

04:59 Too cheesy. We don't go in for that kind of numerical punnery.

05:06 Wait till we start talking about Bruno.

05:12 So obviously gonna be me.

05:19 That was my answer for the second question. You beat me to it. No one's gonna know what we're

05:24 talking about. Should we just talk about that joke now? There's one of the places is Bruno.

05:29 Go for it. And it's spelled B-R-N-O, which is obviously Bruno without the U. And Billie,

05:36 do you want to explain why that? Because of Encanto? And so the minute it got pitched,

05:43 I just started making that terrible pun. Every time it came up, I was like,

05:47 let's talk about Bruno. Let's talk about Bruno. And then I enlisted Tim to ask him to repeat the

05:52 joke every time he was talking about it, too. And he very gamely agreed. And here we are.

05:58 Yep. And here we are. And here all the listeners get to get to know the hijinks behind the scenes.

06:04 And my love of puns. I think with the list, we did get it down to sort of a dozen. And then

06:10 and then we kept having places that we really wanted to have in. And so we went, yeah,

06:15 it sort of doubled in size, didn't it? And obviously some of them are rounded up in

06:18 thematic pieces. Yeah. Yeah. We started seeing some places like, for example, Paris has the

06:25 Summer Olympics going on. So it felt like an obvious inclusion. But we also didn't want to

06:30 give it so much space in the magazine because, you know, also the Summer Olympics could be for

06:37 a lot of people a reason not to go to Paris next year. So but we did we didn't want to not mention

06:43 it. So it became like it became a little bit like we had a few places like Bruno Chechea and a few

06:50 and a bunch of others that that we were really excited to feature. But then there were some

06:54 others that also just felt like there were important enough things happening there or

06:59 they were capitals of something like the European capital of culture and whatnot that felt, you know,

07:06 really interesting and important to mention. But then we didn't want to give it as much space in

07:11 the print magazine. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, you mentioned events, and that does seem to be

07:18 kind of like a central focus point in some ways for a lot of these destinations. Do you want to

07:22 talk about? We'll talk about some of the ones, you know, in particular later, but why was that

07:28 a focus? And what are you most excited about? Well, I'll jump in one of one of the big events

07:36 for 2024 is the solar eclipse that's happening on April 8. Across the staff at AFAR, we're all

07:44 seem to be obsessed with these eclipses. So that that was in Texas. So the idea was raised by one

07:51 of our colleagues, May Hamilton, that Texas and the Hill Country in Texas would be an ideal place

07:56 to experience the eclipse coming April 8. So we knew we wanted to do something on that.

08:01 And then using that as an opportunity to talk about that area of the country where there's

08:05 also a lot going on. There's a lot in the in the wine scene. There's a lot of small towns

08:10 that with a lot of culture to visit, it seemed like a great way to talk about an event, but also

08:18 make it more about a place that people could experience beyond that one day. So I think that

08:23 was another another way that we were thinking about events, not just go and have the event

08:27 and experience the event. But what can we share with people about the location that that event

08:32 is taking place in? Yeah, exactly. I think that really comes out nicely in Texas on the choice

08:38 of photography here. When I thought of that piece, I imagined just big, wide open Texan plane at night

08:45 with some stars or something obvious about the eclipse. But actually, what we've got is this

08:49 lovely shot of two girls swimming underwater at one of the swimming holes there and an old

08:54 truck driving through the kind of wildflower meadows. And that's one of my favorite things

08:58 about writing for a magazine, especially is when the art team bring it to life. And it just it just

09:03 is just amazing. I love it. Yeah, yeah. An unexpected look at the place.

09:08 Why do you think so many people are drawn to traveling for solar eclipses?

09:14 It feels like a nerdy phenomenon that's it's not so nerdy that it's still it's still cool. And you

09:19 can see everyone can still appreciate the enormous power of it. I think it's also a moment to just

09:26 feel connected with this much broader, you know, galaxy that we live in. And, and to just realize

09:34 that we are quite, quite small. I felt that for sure I went on a, I got to, you know, like see

09:41 some really far away galaxies in a telescope, you know, very powerful telescope. And just that

09:48 feeling of being really small and reminded of, you know, that we are just little dots.

09:54 It's kind of an amazing feeling. I think it just brings people together.

09:56 Yeah. And the fact that we all get to witness it together, right? So you're there with people,

10:01 it's something we can't, that's a place we can't go yet, right? But we're all experiencing this

10:07 crazy phenomenon together, no matter kind of where you are. So I think there's something

10:14 really special about that.

10:15 Obviously, astrotourism seems to be a big thing at hotels everywhere nowadays. I mean,

10:21 number of places someone at a hotel, someone's rolled out a telescope and has been an impromptu

10:26 stargazing type experience. I think people are just traveling for that all the time. So

10:31 obviously the eclipse is like the big festival, you know, dramatic version of that, but.

10:35 Absolutely. Wow. Well, what else surprised you on this year's list?

10:42 I don't want to give Bono too much of the limelight, but the place in Cheche, but I was

10:48 very, I wasn't very aware of it. Obviously, Prague is the more well-known city there. And

10:54 great story from Emma John about just the arts and culture and the vibe of that city and some

11:02 of the really interesting things going on there, like Cabinet Moots, this vegan cafe by day and

11:08 band venue at night. Museum of Fine Arts with floating chairs as part of the exhibits,

11:14 cocktail bar where you sort of immersive, you know, drinkers take part in the story and

11:19 a hotel that's only 26 feet wide. I think in that piece, she really brought out all the sort of

11:24 interesting curiosities of that place and definitely made me want to visit,

11:28 which is obviously the point of these. Yeah, that's incredible.

11:34 I'll say two things generally that surprised me about the list. One is a lot of places that we

11:43 chose are places that you've you had. I mean, of course, we do have the Bourgneuse and a few

11:48 others that I think will be quite new for a lot of readers. But we do have quite a few places that

11:54 I think people have heard of and may have traveled to before. But we have sort of fresh reasons to

11:59 visit. Two examples that come to mind there are Rome, Italy and Los Angeles, California. And both

12:08 of them are pretty well known destinations, pretty big, well known cities. In the case of Rome,

12:15 there are a lot of new, pretty beautiful looking hotels that I think will be a draw for people to

12:21 come and not just come in and try to see the Colosseum and try to do all of the bucket list

12:27 type of things that Rome is famous for, but also just try to stay and enjoy the city and experience

12:34 a lot of the other pieces of the city that that may be overlooked. There are also a lot of

12:40 archaeological sites that are being breathed new life into. And I think that that just gives a lot

12:47 of people who maybe have been to Rome once before on a Europe trip at some point, a reason to go

12:52 back and really try to explore the city afresh. In Los Angeles, it there's a really large Black

12:58 Arts, Black Art movement that's going on there. A really large space that's opening up and and

13:04 also a ton of new restaurants that I think a lot of our readers would be excited to check out.

13:10 And the second thing that surprised me about our list is that a lot of destinations we chose

13:15 because of their sustainability and conservation commitment. This is true for places like Fiji,

13:22 where a lot of hotels have strong commitments to help preserve ocean life. Places like Norway,

13:30 where there's just so much green transport and ways to get around the country and many others

13:36 too that that I think that really have done quite a lot on the environment, which is also which was

13:42 one of our factors in choosing it. Yeah, we also some of the places that we chose had a cultural

13:49 sustainability and a cultural aspect that was coming up, obviously events and festivals. But

13:55 one of the places that surprised me or that I learned something about was St. Kitts. The pitch

14:01 came in from a writer we've worked with, Rosalinda Cummings Yeats. And she had been there and met

14:07 two people who were sort of bringing back the legacy of Rome in St. Kitts. Now it's in the

14:15 Caribbean. And I think people sort of widely know that there was sugar sugar plantations there during

14:20 the colonial various colonial eras of those islands. And St. Kitts had been a British colony

14:25 for a very long time, where there were a lot of plantations that were farmed by enslaved African

14:30 peoples. And recently, there's this movement to reclaim that really painful and complicated past,

14:39 but through local residents, local catitians, they call themselves, who, which is an amazing

14:46 demonym, by the way, that to their so there's two companies that are that are doing that to

14:52 sort of bring back that history and talk about it in a new light, you know, really reevaluating that

14:59 history and sharing what it meant to the local people who were living there and their their

15:03 descendants now. So I learned a lot about that through editing and working with her on that

15:07 story. And I think especially in the Caribbean, where maybe people are just thinking about it as a

15:12 sun and beach destination to learn that there are cultural there are points of cultural connection

15:21 that are available. And it's not just in St. Kitts, that just happens to be where we

15:25 focus on this this year. That was surprising and exciting to me.

15:31 That's so cool. And you can taste the rum?

15:35 Yes, you can go to these places. These the two the two companies one is run by this guy,

15:40 Jack Widdeson, it's called Old Road Rum Company. And he grew up on an estate that was used to be

15:46 a sugar plantation. And when he was like a teenager, there are archaeologists who found

15:51 the ruins of an old distillery on it. They dated it back to the 1600s. And they think it's the

15:57 oldest rum distillery in the Caribbean. And he was like 14 when they found this. And so then he

16:03 grows up and he's like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna start a rum company. And I'm gonna

16:09 bring people I'm gonna raise money to he's trying to rebuild that distillery actually so that they

16:14 can for the first time in a long time, you know, make rum actually on the island. But in the

16:19 meantime, he's blending blending rums from from the region and inviting people to to the property

16:25 where he does tours and let's them taste and talks about this history. So yeah, you can go and there's

16:31 a tour you can take called the the St. Kitts Rum Masters Tour. So you can go and visit the Old Road

16:38 Rum and this other another company called Hibiscus Spirits and taste and learn how to make St. Kitts

16:46 Kittitian cocktails and Caribbean influence cocktails and really hear the story and learn

16:53 about the history in a new perspective. That's so cool. Yeah, I love it. Well, one of the other

16:58 things that I'm hearing you say, I think all three of you is that you learn so much through making

17:03 this list. Is there anything in kind of a broader sense that you feel like you learned while kind

17:09 of putting this list together? How many places there are in the world that I cannot wait to visit?

17:16 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Never ending, right? It's never ending, which I mean, thank goodness.

17:22 Thank goodness. Yeah. I think also we have a lot of focus on arts and culture this year

17:29 in a lot of our stories, like the Los Angeles that I had mentioned before, St. Kitts. There's many

17:35 others to Manchester, England, which Billy wrote, and they all seem so specific, their art scenes.

17:41 You know, they're not just like a generally, I don't know, you can get to some things that feel

17:47 like you could be anywhere, but all of the ones that we highlight, I feel like they seem very

17:52 specific to the place, which I just, I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you mentioned Rome earlier,

17:59 Sarika, and that was written by someone who lives there, right? And has that kind of insider.

18:03 Yeah. Yeah. Laura Itzkowitz, she first moved to Rome for a couple of years in 2009, and now

18:10 she's lived there permanently since 2019 or so. And she wrote this pitch and it was just,

18:18 it was so clear working with her, just how knowledgeable she was. One thing I really

18:23 enjoyed while working on that story in particular was she talks about some of the archaeological

18:27 digs and these different sites that were uncovered first by Mussolini and then fell a little bit more

18:33 into disrepair and then are now being brought back. And I almost felt like as I was reading

18:39 the story, I was getting the type of tour that she was talking about in Rome that so many tourists

18:46 don't do because they're just focused on hitting up the Colosseum, going to the Forum, then booking

18:52 it to the Amalfi Coast so they can take all their Instagram photos. And this was just such a, just

18:57 even the process of reading the story, I felt like, oh, I get what she's talking about. And

19:02 every question that I had for her going back and forth as an editor, she would just write these

19:08 long paragraphs and then say, well, if this doesn't work, then we can try this site. And she would

19:12 just tell me all about the history of that site, going back to Julius Caesar. And I felt like it

19:18 was great. It was a little bit of a European history primer that I was getting.

19:23 >> You need to put that out somewhere for listeners to read.

19:27 >> Yeah.

19:28 >> That's great. Well, you also mentioned sustainability. And I think even getting

19:32 people outside of kind of the main tourist traps is a kind of sustainability, right?

19:37 Is there anything else you want to add about kind of how this list was framed for a climate

19:42 conscious traveler? >> Yeah. So a couple of things that come to

19:46 mind for me and Billy and Tim, please add. One is that we do have a decent number of domestic

19:52 destinations in the list as well. So people don't have to travel halfway around the world

19:58 in order to get to experience something magical. Like we do highlight a few great American cities.

20:06 So including places like Philadelphia and Seattle and Charleston that are having moments right now,

20:14 and other North American cities too, like Toronto and Los Angeles. So all of these places I think

20:20 are much closer for a lot of our readers to actually get to. And so that's something that,

20:27 of course, like the actual act of traveling somewhere uses a lot of the carbon that a

20:32 traveler uses on a trip. And then a lot of the hotels that we mentioned throughout the piece,

20:38 they also have really strong climate initiatives that are going on. So for example, for getting

20:44 back to Rome again, the Six Senses that we mentioned as one of the hotels there that's

20:48 recently opened, they actually are on 100% green power. So guests can feel a little bit better

20:55 about staying at places that have such strong climate commitments. And so you can make your

21:00 trip greener kind of along, you know, both in how you get there. And then once you get there,

21:06 where you stay, like all of these things sort of add up and you can have a much lighter footprint

21:10 than maybe a more traditional traveler would. That's really, yeah, really, Tim, please add.

21:17 Yeah, I think you covered it. I mean, obviously, we're always trying to help people find lesser

21:22 known, less touristed places, or if they're going somewhere like Rome to stay longer. And I think

21:27 there's plenty of ideas in the Rome piece for making a longer trip, supporting local businesses.

21:33 I will say I talk about what we learned making the list, I realized I need to see a lot more of LA,

21:37 which is just down the road. Obviously, Destination Crenshaw, the black art project,

21:42 is finally opening next year. But there's loads of small businesses in that piece, I could go and

21:48 support and check out some great food options. It's also just while we're on LA, the 100th

21:52 anniversary of the Hollywood sign as well. So as well as everything new, there, there's a lot of

21:58 heritage, obviously, to enjoy. And I went for a walk up to the letters with the Hollywood sign

22:03 trust chairman. It's very, it's very, very vertiginous. Hi. He was giving me a long story

22:12 of the history of the sign while I was kind of like holding on to the piece of wood that used

22:16 to hold up the L for the land when it was Hollywood. Wow. And yeah, some great history

22:24 there. And you can walk all the way up behind it and see the sign and the city behind it. So

22:28 yeah, but sustainability wise. I don't know what else what did we miss Billy?

22:36 Well, we there's three locations in particular on the list that that are notable for their

22:43 sustainability efforts. And those are Fiji, which Tim wrote about, and he can talk about

22:47 Norway and Bhutan. Some of that is like in Norway. It's, it's almost I won't say behind the scenes,

22:56 but there's there's a sort of a countrywide effort to to like honor the beautiful nature

23:04 that's there, right? Obviously, they have fjords and beautiful water and mountains,

23:09 and they know it, right. But they also know, hey, we have to protect this. So the the public

23:14 transportation options, they're working on hybrid electric trains and fully electric trains, the

23:20 country is phasing out internal combustion cars. So like one in every five cars is an electric

23:26 vehicle, very easy to rent that. So these, the sort of day to day of your trip, if you were

23:34 traveling there, could be respectful of the nature that you're seeing. And we wanted to to recognize

23:43 that. Tim, you want to talk about Fiji? There's a similar kind of thing going on there.

23:47 Yeah, what struck me about Fiji is there's obviously lots of high end resorts there. But

23:53 a lot of them are taking ocean conservation really seriously and helping and letting guests help with

23:58 that. So you can help plant coral, you can plant mangrove saplings. So mangroves is obviously the

24:06 kind of plant superheroes when it comes to carbon sequestration. Sequestration? How do you what is

24:13 the word? Putting drawing down carbon? And also acting as flood barriers and habitat. So yeah,

24:21 I went there a year ago to stay at Nanuku Resort on the south coast of the main island, Viti Levu.

24:28 And yeah, I just met some really passionate people there who were just doing lots of great things in

24:34 the ocean and on the land. I thought that was so cool that their resorts have marine biologists on

24:40 staff. Like, yeah, right, not just for sustainability, but for nerdiness. Like now I want

24:46 to go to Fiji and just hang out with a marine biologist. Yeah, and they're doing great work

24:51 with local communities as well, helping them come and see the project, get involved in their planting

24:56 these mangroves near the villages to help sort of flood protection there rather than, you know,

25:00 building big concrete walls and putting bricks down. The other thing that struck me about Fiji

25:04 is it's very few people go there from the States. When I went from LA, it's a direct flight,

25:10 you have to take an overnight flight both ways, which is the downside. But the plus side is

25:15 in 2022, 70,000 people went from the US and 7.7 million went to Hawaii. So if you're looking for

25:23 somewhere with a lot less tourists and a lot more space to enjoy all this natural beauty, then

25:28 I recommend it. I loved it. Yeah. Very smart. Well, we talked a little bit about events earlier,

25:36 but one that really caught my eye was, I think the whimsy of it was the kite festival.

25:41 Can you tell us a little bit more about the Chinese city that hosts it?

25:45 Yes, Wai Fang. I've never been there myself. I've only been to Beijing, but it's about

25:53 halfway between Beijing and Shanghai, about four or five hours drive from each.

25:57 And next year is the culture city of East Asia. And I think it's sort of one of the places that

26:03 has a claim to being the birthplace of kites, but it's definitely known as a kite capital of the

26:09 world. They have this festival every April, International Kite Festival, but draws in tens

26:15 of thousands of people. And as you can imagine, all the kind of colorful kites. They have a World

26:20 Kite Museum. And I don't know if you guys flown kites for me, it's like half an hour of untangling

26:27 and three minutes of fun. I imagine it's amazing to see experts beautifully made, handmade kites,

26:35 the skies full of them. That sounds so cool. Yeah. Wai Fang is also a UNESCO creative city of crafts

26:42 and folk art. So it's not just kites. There's visitors there can learn about clay modeling,

26:47 paper cutting, woodblock printing. It just sounds like a very interesting creative city.

26:52 And apparently has a great night food market scene as well.

26:56 Well, I think it kind of came up naturally earlier, but you know, because Tim, you've been

27:01 to Fiji, but have you been to any of these places recently? I mean, Billy, I know you were just in

27:06 Estonia and loved it. Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna say I won't bore you all with it, but I will bore you

27:15 all with it. I loved it. I loved it. Estonia. I didn't know much about it. I think most US travelers

27:24 familiarity with it is Tallinn, the capital, which is a stop on Baltic cruises. So that's the port

27:29 that people go to. And they don't really get out of that city. And that is just a missed opportunity.

27:39 The whole the country's small. It's phenomenal. It's gorgeous. You've got this beautiful UNESCO

27:44 World Heritage old town in Tallinn, which is gorgeous. It's like 14th century castles and

27:50 walls and things. And then you can go two hours outside and be in a couple of national parks. I

27:57 went hiking in a bog, which was like walking on snowshoes on imagine a carpet of peat moss,

28:04 like a foot thick, and it just kind of sinks slightly. And you're on converted snowshoes.

28:10 So you're sort of walking on water. And it's just gorgeous. So I got to do that and hike

28:16 through a forest and you can pick your own mushrooms because everything is like fresh

28:19 and natural. And then and then in the south and all of it, everything's like two hours apart.

28:24 And it's super modernized, like the roads and the highways, very easy to get around. Everybody

28:29 speaks English. There's Wi Fi everywhere. There's one like the country is really committed to

28:35 Internet access and digital education and stuff. So it's very easy for travelers to experience.

28:43 And then in Tartu, which is the second largest city, it's only about 100000 people,

28:47 so it's still pretty small. They are one of the Europe's cultural capitals for 2024.

28:53 So there we talked about events, but all year long in 2024, there are going to be various

28:59 things that people can go and experience and get to know that city, which is also surprised me

29:05 because you get to the main town square and it looks like something out of like Nice. Like it

29:10 looked like southern Europe. It's like a cobblestone town square with a statue in the middle and these

29:16 beautiful, colorful, stately buildings around and open air cafes everywhere and a river running

29:24 through it. So it has this very European feel that my guess is people don't associate with that far

29:31 north in Europe. So and it was just cool. And so there's all this like very sort of classical

29:37 Europe feeling stuff. But there's also leftover Soviet era relics. And that was really interesting

29:45 to see. So I had a blast. I met so many cool people and I can't recommend it enough. Go to

29:52 Estonia. I'm like a walking ad. Losing you to Estonia. Sorry, Tim.

30:00 What made you want to go there in the first place?

30:01 I'd read an article in BBC travel. I had nothing to do with it before I worked there, where a

30:11 writer had interviewed this man who lives in the area where they do the bog hiking. And I think the

30:18 writer hadn't even gone because during the pandemic, but you can cut all this out. But there

30:25 in in this region of Estonia, where it's all bogs, like it's all marshes and stuff. They have what

30:31 they call a fifth season that happens in March when all the snow melt from the surrounding areas.

30:36 There's no real mountains in Estonia, but there's a lot of rivers. So some of from the surrounding

30:40 areas, floods these rivers and every couple years, like cars sink, you know, like the water

30:48 raises really high and everybody has to get around on canoes. And I just thought that sounded so

30:55 interesting and was such a such an interesting climate story. It was such an interesting

31:00 cultural adaptation story. And I just thought it was fascinating. So I was like, well, I want to

31:08 go there. And then the rest of the trip happened. And then I got I got to meet that man who does

31:13 the canoeing and in the box. He's the one who took me hiking. So yeah, so you never know,

31:18 people read our stories. And then years later, they go to these places. And then it turned out

31:23 because Tartu was going to be the one of the 2024 European capitals of culture. It was like, okay,

31:28 well, now it's there's a moment happening. And how is this country going to embrace that and show off,

31:34 you know, their arts and culture scenes for for the rest of the world? That was that drew me in.

31:40 That is one thing I just love about our list in general is just hopefully, even if people aren't

31:45 able to go this year, it just plants a seed somewhere that, yeah, hey, this is a place that

31:51 I never really thought of before. And hopefully one day when I'm able to go somewhere that this

31:57 is this may be somewhere on my list. Yeah, absolutely. It's something that you kind of

32:02 save, right? Like you save Yeah, version of the magazine or bookmark the article online and

32:08 hopefully use it as inspiration for years to come. I was just thinking the destination that I wrote

32:14 about, which is Lamu, Kenya, I think is hopefully going to be that for a lot of people, because

32:19 I think many people who come to Africa for the first time the continent of Africa, which contains

32:24 54 countries that they do typically go on safari to experience Africa's wild places,

32:31 which are incredible. And I totally understand that. At the same time, there's so much more

32:37 to the continent than animals and, and wild places. There's also just incredible cities. And,

32:44 and in this case, that the one that I wrote about this island with a really very unique and well

32:51 preserved Swahili culture, which is this blend of Bantu, like East African culture, combined with

33:00 Arabic and Persian and some European and Indian and Chinese cultures that have sort of made this

33:06 melting pot. And it's very, you know, you wouldn't be able to find this architecture in many other

33:11 places or a lot of other cultural facets that are very well preserved. Again, Lamu town, which is

33:17 the main town on the island is also a UNESCO World Heritage Site for that reason. And, and I think

33:24 it's just it's just a really, I think anyone who is planning a trip to the continent, like I feel

33:31 like it's, it's also really worth going to places like this. Yeah, absolutely. How far is it from

33:37 you where you live? It's about an hour flight. Flying, flying is the best way to get there.

33:43 But yeah, from and that's from Nairobi and there's direct flights. And there's gorgeous hotels and

33:50 guest houses to stay at. Like truly, you just feel like you're in a photo shoot all day. Then

33:56 the really unique thing about the island is that there's no cars. So and there's not really like

34:01 any like street signs or anything. So you just kind of walk around and there's, there's this,

34:06 they're like meandering alleys and you kind of find your way, you know, that's the thing, like

34:11 you will get lost at some point, but then you'll be like, Oh, yeah, I recognize, I recognize that

34:16 tree or I recognize that donkey. There's a lot of donkeys there. And you sort of just like,

34:21 find your way again. I mean, there's so few opportunities to get lost anymore. I love that.

34:26 Yeah. But still feel safe. You know, it's like you're, you feel like you're still contained in

34:33 this small place. Like you really can't go very far. The donkey will take you back.

34:38 The donkey will. Yeah. Distinctive donkeys. And if you recognize them. Yeah.

34:44 There actually is a like a donkey rehabilitation site on the island as well. And yeah,

34:51 you can go and visit and see just, you know, three legged donkeys that are being rehabilitated and

34:56 all sorts of other things. So another African destination that we've mentioned in our list

35:02 is another city on the other side of Africa, Tangier, Morocco, which is in the very, very far

35:08 north of Morocco. I ended up learning a lot about the colonial history of the city. And it used to

35:14 be considered part of an international zone. And it was managed by a consortium of other countries,

35:20 including like Italy and Spain. So it wasn't really considered part of Morocco for a long time.

35:25 And it has a bit of an international edge to it. Now, the city is becoming a lot more connected

35:32 to its Moroccan identity. There's a lot of really creative Moroccans who are doing amazing things

35:38 like they're, you know, running restaurants and cultural programs and shops that are selling

35:44 different types of home goods and beauty products that are all Moroccan led companies. And a lot of

35:51 them are also run by young women. So I think it's a really cool way to experience a city that has

35:57 historically had this international very, also very artsy edge to it. But now that artsyness is

36:03 being led by a lot of creative young Moroccans. So it seems like a place that I would be really

36:08 excited to go and kind of see both the sort of old Tangier and the new Tangier combined.

36:14 Yeah, there's so many great cities on this list this year. Are there any that you feel like we

36:19 didn't talk about that we should? Yeah, I'll give a pitch for San Diego,

36:24 down near me. It's in our list, along with Tijuana, the two cities on both sides of the border are

36:33 the World Design Capital 2024 cities. Lots of design focused events, which is lots of great

36:39 architecture to see there, which is, you know, people think of San Diego, just beaches and tacos.

36:44 And obviously, there's a huge city and there's lots to see in that regard. And I was there,

36:50 I think earlier this year, driving an EV around for an EV road trip for Digital Article. And so

36:56 it's very easy to fly in and rent an EV and not have to, you know, have a gas powered car. And

37:02 some of the design things are happening up in La Jolla, which is this lovely

37:07 neighborhood, North City on the cliffs. You can go sea kayaking in the caves. There's leopard sharks

37:14 in the water and bright orange coral, bouldy fish and snorkeling. And it's just beautiful,

37:19 beautiful place. So I'd heartily recommend that. Wow.

37:24 I give a shout out to Philadelphia. We put that in, we're all pretty excited about Philadelphia

37:31 this year. People know Philadelphia, obviously, it's a place for American history, Constitution

37:37 was written there. But the food scene is just on fire. It won more James Beard Awards in 2023 than

37:45 any other city for the chefs and restaurants. And they're diverse and just so interesting and

37:53 varied. And it's a great reason to rethink and revisit that city this year. Plus the art scene

38:00 has always been great. And there's amazing institutions of art like the Philadelphia

38:04 Museum of Art and the Barnes Foundation. But also the gallery scene has long been thriving. And it

38:11 still is they still do a first Friday every month where the galleries stay open. That's actually

38:16 expanded. It's near New York. So I've been there a lot. So I'm very excited. And it's just it's

38:21 yeah, it was great to be able to to include include that city for for all the new things that

38:27 are happening there and the new reasons people should be thinking about it, which might have

38:30 been different from what they were thinking before. Yeah, you know, when you said it has

38:35 more James has more James Beard Award winners, I was reaching for the hand clapping emoji to

38:40 pop up on the screen. I think I've spent too much time on Microsoft.

38:42 I'll also give a shout to Toronto, which is I did not know this that it is by many measures the most

38:55 diverse city in the world, even more so than New York City and London. There are upwards of 180

39:02 languages spoken there. And just this year, one of the reasons why it became included on our list

39:07 this year is because they elected their first mayor, who's a woman of color, Olivia Chow, who

39:14 is also has talked a lot about diversity. And the piece takes you through several of the neighborhoods

39:20 where you can go to Little Tibet and have momos, you can go to Koreatown and go, you know, sing

39:26 karaoke there. You can go and go to a neighborhood where there's a lot of Somali people. And there's

39:33 also similar to Philadelphia, there are also some, you know, more high end gastronomical experiences

39:39 to have. And also just a lot of cultural events happening throughout the year. The Caribbean

39:44 Festival in August draws, I think a million people. And then there's a contemporary arts night

39:50 in October, that's an all night affair and just brings in Torontonians from all stripes.

39:55 Amazing. And we're going as a company in March. I'm so excited.

40:00 I know that I've actually like, you know, I feel like the entire list for that or the entire

40:06 essay for that is basically just like my to do list of all the different restaurants and

40:10 neighborhoods to check off. It is we have much more to eat than we have time for.

40:15 We can extend or come early. Or just do all our meetings at the second. Yeah,

40:21 second lunch, first dinner, dinner.

40:26 We had a great run of digital stories on Toronto earlier this year as well. So if you're going

40:32 there, look at the Toronto guide on the website. We had a really nice we do this thing called my

40:37 perfect day and it's a local runs us through how they spend their perfect day and one by Tiffany

40:42 Ram Subic who runs Ode which is Toronto's only black owned boutique hotel. She just she just

40:48 grabs another great day there. And yeah, we've got a lot to do we're gonna need some extra time

40:54 because we don't want to just be things. No, the meeting should be in the restaurant.

40:58 Well, we've talked a lot about these urban destinations, arts and culture. What about

41:04 people who like to travel for nature, or to be outside? There's Fiji, of course, but

41:10 yeah, Billy had briefly mentioned Bhutan. I think that Bhutan is an amazing country. I have not been

41:17 myself but Kathleen Rellahan, who she went last year and was one of the first people to hike the

41:23 a newly restored trans Bhutan trail that fell into disrepair in the 60s and just reopened,

41:29 just reopened last year. And and now just this year, Bhutan is lowered. It's always had a tourist

41:37 tax. So that covers, you know, various things like you know, like lodging and a company and,

41:42 and, and a guide and whatnot. It's recently lowered the tourist tax to now $100 a day,

41:50 in order to spur more tourism. So and there's also a lot of new hotels that have opened as well as

41:55 the trans Bhutan trail. So the trans Bhutan trail goes through the Bhutanese countryside, and you

41:59 get to pass but this stupas and temples and all types of small towns and villages that were

42:05 previously pretty much off limits entirely to foreigners. So lots of really cool reasons to

42:11 visit Bhutan. It's also hugely conservation minded. So 60% of the of the country must be

42:18 under forest cover. And it's the first carbon negative country in the world. So that's another

42:24 cool reason to visit. See how they did it. Yes, yes. We're all reaching for the clapping hands.

42:32 One of our one of our roundups that we have in in the book is classic spots to that are

42:38 potentially worth a revisit. One of them is Machu Picchu, which is Peru's most popular

42:46 destination with good reason. I mean, Machu Picchu is a brilliant feat of Incan engineering.

42:51 The Sacred Valley, though, more generally is just, it's one of the prettiest places in the world,

42:57 in my opinion. And Intrepid Tours has recently opened up a new hike that takes people to be

43:05 able to see Machu Picchu, but also see lesser lesser visited sides of the Sacred Valley. So

43:10 it's called the quarry trail and they're able to to visit older Incan towns and and also just see

43:18 some waterfalls and some other sites that were previously a bit more off limits. So definitely,

43:24 I love the idea of revisiting a classic destination, but with a with a bit of a twist on it.

43:30 I would say if you like your outdoors with a glass of wine, then head to Uruguay this year.

43:38 We had a lovely piece from Julia Buckley who wrote about this region called Maldonado.

43:42 It's a coastal region. I think it's the next one along from Montevideo and Canolones. But anyway,

43:50 it's very much the up and coming wine region of the country. And there's a sommelier there who's

43:57 worked on a Mapa del Vino, which is a map of all of the boutique vineyards in Uruguay. So you can

44:02 follow that trail and it just looks beautiful land of alfresco food tastings and great

44:08 reds red wines. Yeah, definitely added that to my list after working on that piece.

44:16 Well, I'd love to just pivot a little bit more broadly to kind of where we're traveling next

44:24 year, how we're traveling, you know, 2023 was such a busy travel year and it continues to be.

44:30 Do you have any predictions for 2024? I think it's still going to be busy.

44:34 Yeah, yes. That's not going away anytime soon. But don't let that stop you. I think that's that's

44:43 one of the messages of our list to, you know, look to places off the mainstream path. For example,

44:50 you know, in Europe, Estonia and Brno in in Africa, Lamu and Tangier. And then also rethink

45:00 places that may be familiar to you, like a like a Rome or Toronto. There's actually there's another

45:04 layer that we're trying to bring to the surface. So maybe that will that will help people avoid the

45:11 goat track of the main masses of tourism.

45:16 Absolutely. Any other advice for travelers? As we head into another year?

45:27 Yeah, the busy the busy places are just going to get busier and climate will obviously play a part,

45:32 you know, an unpredictable climate. So be prepared for that in certain places. I echo everything

45:40 Billy says, really try and go shoulder season where you can. But I mean, the pandemic is going

45:45 to get hotter. Yeah, yeah. You know, the pandemic was a big reminder that you never know what's

45:51 around the corner. So travel where you can make the most of it. That that kitchen extension on

45:56 your car can wait and get out there and see the world. I didn't I book your travel insurance will

46:03 link to the episode about that. Okay, that's wonderful. Well, I'd love to end this conversation

46:08 with where you are planning to go this year where you want to go could be places on the list. It

46:12 could be other trips that you have planned. Where are you editors going? Well, in part inspired by

46:21 not our list, but a feature story in our previous issue, our epic trips issue over the over the

46:28 holidays, I'm going with my family to Oman, which I'm really excited about. I had known a bit about

46:34 it, but didn't really know just how diverse it was in terms of the types of things that you can

46:40 do there from the from snorkeling or scuba diving to mountain climbing to visiting the desert to of

46:48 course, like spending time in cities and eating lots of delicious Middle Eastern food. So I'm

46:53 really excited to be able to do all of that and definitely was also additionally inspired by our

46:59 feature story, which is absolutely gorgeous. The photographs as well are just breathtaking. Like

47:06 it doesn't even some of these wadis which are sorry, some of these wadis which are these big

47:12 gorges with, you know, they're very sand colored and then they have bright turquoise blue water

47:18 running through them. They they just look like they're I don't know out of a movie set or

47:22 something like that. They don't they don't even look real. We'll link to that story as well.

47:27 Because it's such a good one. Yeah, I should say the writing is amazing. And the photographs are

47:34 just kind of add to it even more. So it's just like on both sides of it. You're just like,

47:38 wow, this place is just otherworldly. Gotta go.

47:41 Billy, how about you? What's your list look like this year?

47:46 I'm heading to Kenya in February. So I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna visit Zarka. And then see if I

47:54 can also get to Tlalmo from our list. And I, I often will travel for music or a like one random

48:01 event. So Burna's on my list. They have that free music festival in August and cool. And Manchester

48:07 has a bunch of stuff going on because they've they have also we're talking about arts and culture

48:11 have opened several venues including the UK's like largest entertainment. Basically a concert

48:18 venue is purpose built for music. And so there's concerts there I want to see. And I've already got

48:24 a couple on my list, including this. It's a citywide what's it called? It's called the City

48:31 of Floating Sounds. And it's an interactive symphony project where there's music throughout

48:37 the city of Manchester and then it'll guide you through it and then back to this new theater

48:43 space called the Viva Studios at Factory International, which just opened this year.

48:46 And it's one of the reasons that the city's on our list. And then it'll end up there. So that's

48:51 in June. And I want to go back for that. Yeah, that sounds I want to go to.

48:56 Come on. Second company meeting.

49:00 I wish.

49:02 I love your Manchester piece, Billie, how obviously the city so well known for its

49:07 music scene, but there's so much more happening nowadays that people maybe be aware of.

49:12 Yeah, yeah. And that was one of the reasons I went because it had that music history,

49:16 but I was just floored by how much more there is there, including amazing libraries.

49:21 But that's another episode.

49:22 Tim, where will you be podcasting from the next?

49:28 I'll be back in my office at home. My travel calendar is looking quite light,

49:32 considering I've been working on this, this, this feature. I'm going to Palm Springs in January and

49:39 we have the trip to Toronto. But other than that, I'm looking at a blank slate that's filling up

49:43 with other things. So I need to get the travel slotted in. I'd love to go to Peru. I think

49:48 there's a direct flight from L.A. and the idea of doing a trail like the quarry trail really appeals.

49:55 So we should see.

49:56 Would you take your kids to you think? Are they still too young?

49:59 No.

49:59 That was so fast.

49:59 It was very quick.

50:03 Not even a moment of thought.

50:06 We're not hiking to Machu Picchu with eight year olds and four year olds. No.

50:09 Does that sound fun to you?

50:11 We were going to go back to England in the summer, but we just bounced it back to the next

50:16 Christmas now. And then that, yeah. I'm not looking forward to the flight.

50:20 I look forward to seeing how your slate fills up.

50:26 Yeah.

50:26 Well, thank you so much. I mean, the list is phenomenal. The work that you did is really

50:31 incredible. So thank you. And I feel very inspired to go to all 25 and 24. I think that's doable,

50:37 right? Where do you want to go?

50:38 Yeah.

50:39 What's on your list?

50:40 Well, all of them. I mean, Manchester, that just sounds like the music aspect sounds wonderful.

50:46 Toronto is obvious. We're going to do that as a company. And then I don't know, I feel like Kenya

50:52 would probably be the first one that I would pick if I were just going to go anywhere tomorrow. So.

50:58 Caribou Kenya. That means welcome to Kenya.

51:00 Yes, that's right. Yes, we certainly will speak to you.

51:04 I'll make sure there's power when you come.

51:05 I appreciate that. I'll just bring my solar charger.

51:11 Okay, that was our show. Don't forget to hit like and subscribe on your way out.

51:17 And I'll include a link to the podcast below.

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