Sympathy for Immorality?!? Freedomain Call In Show

Stefan Molyneux

A listener calls in to work out how she and her husband can overcome their histories as new parents.  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Get my new series on the Truth About the French Revolution, access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00 All right, so I'm all ears. How did it go? What's happening?

00:00:04 Well, first I wanted to say thank you for making the time again to speak to me today.

00:00:10 Since our call I've been trying to, as you say, judge myself according to

00:00:15 ethics and morality and

00:00:18 not according to the abusive language of

00:00:20 my parents and that voice in my head. I've been feeling a lot more

00:00:26 confident and

00:00:29 inspired and more in touch with reality since our

00:00:31 conversation and I want to thank you for that.

00:00:34 My pleasure, glad to help.

00:00:37 I did listen to your podcast last night and I wanted to say that

00:00:41 it's obviously up to you, but I did want to let you know that even though it was personal I do feel

00:00:48 comfortable with you sharing that call. If you feel like it would help others,

00:00:54 I'd like to think that if it would help others, I'm

00:00:58 comfortable with opening myself up to that as well. So I just wanted to let you know.

00:01:02 Oh, that's very kind. Maybe they'll go out to donors or something like that.

00:01:06 But yeah, I appreciate that's very generous of you. So yeah, do you want to get me up to speed on how things are going now?

00:01:13 Yeah.

00:01:15 So, I guess I'll start kind of

00:01:17 with my husband. So during this process, I was kind of telling you the last call that

00:01:24 it's been opening up certain things for the both of us and locking some memories of his.

00:01:28 He was comfortable with me sharing that. He realized that during

00:01:32 when he was a baby and memory like while changing our girls, our twin girls,

00:01:38 he realized that he was molested by his mom as a baby.

00:01:42 And so for him, this was

00:01:46 you know, a deep pain that he had been carrying along with him his entire life and didn't really

00:01:53 didn't remember it until

00:01:55 now. The situation that we're in being with our girls really kind of opened him up to that and kind of is letting him

00:02:01 heal from that.

00:02:03 I'm not saying that I have some deep-rooted thing necessarily. That's gonna be like a light switch, of course.

00:02:08 I mean, my husband has been into philosophy for years now. So it's not like

00:02:12 you know, it was an easy fix for him. It's an easy thing now.

00:02:17 But I guess I am very curious

00:02:21 and interested to talk to you and maybe more so and go in depth with my childhood and kind of see if there is something

00:02:27 that I'm missing. I know that there's certain things that I have blocks on.

00:02:31 So that's kind of what I was curious and interested in if you are.

00:02:36 It's your call. I mean wherever you want to take it is fine with me.

00:02:40 If you want to tell me about your childhood, we can see if we can pull apart some threads and find some patterns. I'm sure.

00:02:45 Okay.

00:02:50 Where should I start? Should I just start at the beginning?

00:02:52 I can't tell me, you know, that's the thing.

00:02:55 I can't tell you where to start with your childhood, whatever comes to mind first, whatever you think would be the most helpful.

00:02:59 I'm certainly happy to hear.

00:03:01 Well, I guess I'll start with the fact that again, I'm one of three daughters to my parents.

00:03:09 Just to kind of summarize where they are. My oldest sister was 10 years older than me, but she's dead now.

00:03:19 Five years ago. Oh gosh, wow. That's quite a beginning to the chat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, what happened?

00:03:27 So she married an abusive man

00:03:30 who was an alcoholic.

00:03:33 And we found out after the fact that he was abusive throughout the relationship and he shot her and killed her.

00:03:39 My gosh.

00:03:42 My gosh, that's appalling. I'm so sorry. How awful. And this was five years ago.

00:03:49 This was six years ago now. Six years ago. Okay.

00:03:52 Wow, what was this guy like?

00:03:55 You said you didn't know he was abusive, but he was abusing alcohol and you know people who abuse themselves

00:04:01 will abuse others. I mean, that's sort of the way that addiction goes. I mean, what was this guy like beforehand?

00:04:07 So I was, like I said, there was a huge age difference. When they got married, I was in like ninth grade,

00:04:14 I think, when they got married.

00:04:17 He wasn't, he always striked me as odd, kind of a little bit aggressive,

00:04:22 just very eccentric, but my sister was also very eccentric.

00:04:26 She was very, at least outwardly, strong-willed and an angry person. Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by eccentric.

00:04:31 He had maybe just not in touch with reality. Like he had an obsession with guns.

00:04:39 He was really obsessed with like German culture for some reason. I think just because his ancestry was German,

00:04:47 but he would just talk about it a lot. He had like,

00:04:49 like,

00:04:51 what's it called?

00:04:53 Like those packs of like food, like powdered packs, like a bunker person almost,

00:05:00 but he didn't have the means to be a bunker person. He just had,

00:05:04 he was just, you know, kind of insane. He reminded me a lot of my dad.

00:05:09 I kind of always thought he was like my dad when they were together.

00:05:11 Me and my sister were never ever close.

00:05:15 She kind of always treated me like I was her annoying little sister and didn't really want to be around me.

00:05:19 But I do remember there were times I asked her like,

00:05:22 "Why do you like him? Like he's really strange."

00:05:26 "You should give me her reasons for why." I remember a couple times asking, "Is he abusive to you?" She would say no.

00:05:31 But to be honest, like I wasn't as curious enough as I should have been.

00:05:36 Let's say right when I graduated, so like four years later,

00:05:45 him, me,

00:05:47 her husband and my father got into a physical altercation.

00:05:50 Cops were called. Her husband was arrested.

00:05:53 My sister and her husband cut us off for a period of time.

00:05:57 There wasn't really a conversation involved, but I just remember thinking like,

00:06:01 you know, I'm glad she got out, but I don't know why she's not talking to me.

00:06:08 Like I've always kind of tried to talk to her, but you know, if this is what she needed to break free,

00:06:14 then you know, okay, then she did it, I guess. It's kind of the most of the thought that I put into it at the time.

00:06:20 So sorry, they were married, he was arrested. Did he go to jail? Is that why they broke up? What happened?

00:06:27 Oh, they were together.

00:06:28 So he went to jail one night because my dad and her husband got in a physical altercation. My dad called the cops.

00:06:35 Her husband went to jail for a night.

00:06:38 It was just a domestic thing that was kind of waved off.

00:06:43 I'm sorry, just because you said that she got out and I'm not sure what that means.

00:06:48 In my perspective at the time when I was in high school, I thought she got out of our family dynamic.

00:06:55 Oh, okay, sorry. I thought she got out of marriage. That's what I was with her husband.

00:07:00 Okay, so sorry. So she got out of a family dynamic, but I'm not sure what that means.

00:07:03 At the time I thought, you know, she's out of,

00:07:07 you know, my parents grasp. She didn't want to talk to us anymore and my parents didn't really seem like they cared.

00:07:15 They didn't really put any effort in to try to find her either.

00:07:18 It kind of seemed unbothered by it.

00:07:21 Sorry, try to find her? Was she missing?

00:07:25 No, they just didn't try to

00:07:29 reach out to her. They didn't try to

00:07:34 kind of like I was telling you with me how

00:07:36 my parents have been trying to communicate with me regularly since I cut them off last year.

00:07:40 They didn't try to do that with my sister. They kind of just let it be.

00:07:45 Um

00:07:48 They didn't, in my opinion, when I would try to talk to them about it, they didn't seem very bothered.

00:07:52 They just didn't seem very bothered the fact that she had cut herself off from them.

00:07:56 I never really thought that. My dad, like my sister,

00:08:01 actually, when the day we found out that she died, my dad literally said the words, "What else could go wrong this year?"

00:08:07 And then he said, "What?"

00:08:10 He said, "What else could go wrong this year?" And he didn't even cry. Oh, yeah, like it's tough for him, right?

00:08:14 Yeah, he didn't say anything else.

00:08:16 Like at the funeral, it seemed like it was more of a social gathering for him than like a dad memorial.

00:08:23 It was just very, very odd.

00:08:27 Um

00:08:31 But fast forward a few years, um

00:08:34 my sister,

00:08:36 we went into like a depressive episode of some sort. She was an alcoholic too at this point.

00:08:42 Um, she asked me, you know, "Can I come live with you?" Me and my husband, we're not doing well.

00:08:48 Sorry, if you could just remember to stay off the names, but no problem. Go ahead. Me and my husband are not doing well.

00:08:54 Um

00:08:56 I need somewhere to go. I was still living at my parents house at the time and I said, you know,

00:09:00 "Let me talk to my parents." My mom told me no.

00:09:03 Um, and it was just I was like a middleman like back and forth.

00:09:08 Um

00:09:11 But then my sister decided to, she was suicidal at this point, she decided to call the cops on herself, get herself involuntarily,

00:09:18 involuntarily,

00:09:19 um

00:09:21 Baker acted.

00:09:22 Um, and then at that point my mom kind of was like, "Well,

00:09:25 okay, my guess she'll have to come stay with us." So

00:09:29 she came and stayed with us for about six months. Um,

00:09:33 she got on psychiatric medication at this time, kind of tamped all that down, you know, she

00:09:40 was emotional about it. At this time, I tried to ask her again, like how, what's with,

00:09:45 is he abusive to you? Like she would let me know.

00:09:48 If you could just remember to stay off the names just so I don't have to edit it afterwards, I'd appreciate that. Just her husband.

00:09:53 Yeah, go ahead.

00:09:55 Um

00:09:57 and

00:09:59 he kept telling me no. Again at this time I had, this is such a parallel of events, um,

00:10:05 at this time I had had my

00:10:08 um brush with suicidality.

00:10:12 Um, so I was trying, I was on antidepressants at this point as well.

00:10:15 I just got on antidepressants as well, kind of at the same time.

00:10:18 Um, I was in nursing school at the time too. Um, I met my now husband shortly after that. Um, so I, I just wasn't as curious

00:10:28 with her as I should have been at this point.

00:10:31 Um, and then fast forward six months later,

00:10:34 her and her husband tried to work it out

00:10:37 and we found they were, you know, at their own house.

00:10:41 Um, and then I'm sorry. So when your sister was living with you and your parents, her husband wasn't there, right?

00:10:46 No, they were separated for that time.

00:10:49 Um, and then towards the end of the six months they were starting to talk again, hang out,

00:10:54 um, spend some time together and then they spent the night at their house or she spent the night at their house

00:11:01 and then the next day we found out, actually found out from the news first before we

00:11:07 found out from the police

00:11:11 that they were dead.

00:11:12 Um, he, he killed her. He shot her in the head and then he killed himself. So it was a murder suicide.

00:11:17 Wow, wow, wow. Okay.

00:11:23 Um,

00:11:27 there's a lot there, but um, and my other sister, she's five years older than me.

00:11:30 Um, she has been probably the last 15 years or so has been off and on lithium. She's been diagnosed bipolar.

00:11:39 Um, I know for a fact she's been raped by multiple men in her adulthood.

00:11:44 Um, i'm pretty positive. I don't know for sure, but i'm pretty positive when she was young.

00:11:50 Um, my parents had this, um weird

00:11:53 older friend, well their age in his 40s,

00:11:56 um hanging around and I feel and I I feel like he was a predator. Um, my my mom would let

00:12:02 this man take my sister out to baseball games alone.

00:12:08 Um, I think in my sister's point of view, this was the first man that ever showed her attention and affection and

00:12:13 um, I think something had happened to her because she became very hyper sexualized in middle school.

00:12:19 Um, I heard some gossip from one of my cousins once that he she tried to have sex with him.

00:12:25 She played it off,

00:12:27 denied it. I don't know if that was true or not. Um, but

00:12:30 it just you know, she's just since then she's just been with abusive men, um, not physically abusive but um,

00:12:38 um, mostly felons that she's dated with they've had drug issues, uh verbal abuse.

00:12:44 Um, she's still single now.

00:12:47 He's um mid 30s

00:12:50 um, she's but um

00:12:52 I've tried to have many where would you where would you even go to meet felons?

00:12:56 I mean, that that's I mean, I don't mean to make light of it, but i'm i'm just genuinely curious like if some woman wants to

00:13:02 date a felon where where does she even go to to

00:13:07 meet these

00:13:08 People or is it just part of the substance abuse world or does she have substance abuse issues?

00:13:12 She doesn't have substance abuse issues. Uh, well, actually she did have a dipping problem for a lot of years

00:13:20 um

00:13:22 I don't know what that is

00:13:24 Dipping is um

00:13:27 It's like tobacco like the those packs that you stick in your mouth

00:13:30 it's some it's kind of um,

00:13:33 it's kind of rednecky. Um, I

00:13:36 I don't I don't know what else to call it, but it's like that's I just wasn't sure what the term meant

00:13:40 Yeah chewing tobacco. Sorry. Go ahead

00:13:43 Um, but anyway, so she meet these felons, um, she

00:13:48 Should go to line dancing bars. Really? That was her thing

00:13:51 Um, she had this fantasy about line like about being a country girl, even though we lived in the suburbs

00:13:57 um, no, i'm not sure where that came from, but she yeah, most of these men she's met from line dancing bars and just

00:14:04 friends and circles from there

00:14:06 Um, most of them have had drug issues, uh alcohol issues

00:14:11 um verbally

00:14:14 Abuses, I think every boyfriend she's ever had has cheated on her

00:14:17 One her last boyfriend when we were used to talk. We don't talk anymore. Um gave her a sexual std

00:14:23 um

00:14:26 So, yeah, just kind of

00:14:28 Um during this process because since I cut my parents off last year

00:14:31 I've been trying to bring that sister into this me and my husband both

00:14:35 We've we've tried to set her up with a life coach that we know

00:14:38 Um, it just did of course it didn't go. Well, she took she took the side of my parents. Um,

00:14:43 and I want to say right I want to say earlier this year like

00:14:47 Almost a year now actually probably february or so

00:14:51 um march, um

00:14:54 I kind of told her like if you want to have a relationship with me like

00:14:58 Deans are the things that I require. I have higher standards now if you don't want to

00:15:02 You know, let me know if you want to be a part of this and of course

00:15:05 She took offense to that and cut me off. She took the side of my parents. Um,

00:15:09 She's very dependent financially

00:15:11 And emotionally at my parents she's mid 30s still lives at the house with them doesn't um, she kind of works part-time

00:15:18 Um, it's hard for her stress when she's under high stress. She just becomes she goes into episodes

00:15:23 She goes into like three to six month long

00:15:26 manic

00:15:27 depressive episodes, um

00:15:29 Just given her

00:15:31 background

00:15:33 Um

00:15:36 So that's kind of where my sisters are

00:15:38 Wow, i'm sorry to hear that

00:15:41 And it is always a it's always a curious thing to me

00:15:44 Just how people with I don't know mental health challenges or however, you'd want to phrase it

00:15:48 I mean, I I was always sort of limited in my ability to

00:15:52 Be nutty because I had to get up and go to work, you know

00:15:56 because one of these things where i'm always sort of fascinated by the finances of dysfunctional people and I guess the answer there is that she

00:16:03 She lives off your parents right and and I guess occasional work and so on but

00:16:08 yeah, I think that there's a great sanity thing about running out of money and you know,

00:16:13 The degree to which maybe this kind of behavior is self-indulgent

00:16:17 and again, i'm not trying to say it's all fake or anything like that, but you know, if you if you give

00:16:23 If you give crazy people a million dollars to be sane for a week

00:16:26 Could they do it?

00:16:28 You know, I think a lot of them could obviously not psychotics or schizophrenics and so on but I think a lot of people can pull

00:16:33 It together to some degree if they have the right incentives

00:16:36 but as long as you know for pretty women and and

00:16:39 for

00:16:42 People living with their parents or you know, maybe you win the lottery or whatever it is. They just can

00:16:47 They don't have to

00:16:49 Kind of whip themselves into shape so to speak because they can get by without that

00:16:53 Oh, yeah. Yeah, my my mom, um kind of how I told you she always enabled

00:16:57 My dad she's definitely always enabled us. Um

00:17:01 for sure and kind of took

00:17:04 Took the I guess um, i'm not gonna say she took it all but it was

00:17:09 Ultimately, it was our choice as adults too, but she she kind of deflated us in a way

00:17:15 Made us kind of dependent on her. She I think she likes being she complains about it in the moment, but I think she likes

00:17:21 um feeling needed for sure and she likes it's a

00:17:25 I think it's a slightly bit more of a female thing which is

00:17:29 to

00:17:32 Not allow consequences for bad behavior to accrue, right? So, yeah, I mean there's a this sort of standard thing of

00:17:39 The woman doesn't want to let the kid ride the bicycle

00:17:43 To to you know too fast and and the dad's like, you know, if they fall off they'll learn that

00:17:47 So there's a certain amount of I think because I think as moms deal with as you know

00:17:52 Like you can't you can't say to a six-month-old baby. Well, if you tumble down the stairs, you'll learn your lessons, right?

00:17:57 You have to really shield

00:17:59 infants and toddlers from

00:18:01 The consequences of their behavior, but there's usually a bit of a shift that's supposed to happen

00:18:05 I think as the kids get older where maybe the dad's step in a little bit more and say well, you know

00:18:10 They'll they'll learn from consequences, right?

00:18:12 and

00:18:15 so

00:18:16 Maybe that just went way too far I guess in in your family

00:18:19 Yeah, definitely, um whenever my dad would have an episode, um

00:18:28 Depressive episode where he he had to be psyched. Um

00:18:33 Baker acted or when my sister would the one that would be baker acted

00:18:37 she would always you know apply for fmla and take like a month or two off work and

00:18:41 um in her mind take care of

00:18:44 Take care of us or take care of them while they

00:18:47 are remedicated and

00:18:50 Dissociate back into just like a sedated date again

00:18:53 um, that was kind of you know, always the cycle with my parents relationship and that definitely

00:18:59 Um, she tried to do that with us as well

00:19:04 Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean so

00:19:06 I mean even the government stuff and all of that where you can just sort of get money for these dysfunctions

00:19:11 uh, I understand, you know, like the the sort of the sympathy behind it, but boy, is it ever easy to

00:19:17 Uh use that as an excuse to not have to improve

00:19:20 Yeah, definitely

00:19:23 Definitely um

00:19:26 So, yeah, that's good that's um, I don't know I guess I just wanted to start with

00:19:32 Kind of where my sisters what happened to my sisters to give you a little better

00:19:37 Understanding of like where i'm coming from

00:19:40 Um, well, okay. So, uh that that's your sisters in adulthood. But what about you as a child?

00:19:45 Yes, um

00:19:48 So my um first the first memory i've ever had or the first memory I could think of um

00:19:55 I'm, pretty positive. I was four and I was in pre-k four. I remember the teacher's class that I was in

00:20:02 Um, specifically I had this friend. I remember, uh, we would talk a lot about running away together from our families

00:20:09 Um, I remember I had this little pink

00:20:12 Like toy suitcase that every so often i'd be upset at home and pack up

00:20:16 And I'd have like a night of clothes in it and two pieces of gum for my friend and me

00:20:22 And whenever i'd get upset i'd pack that bag and i'd act like I was gonna run away

00:20:26 Um, and that's the first that's the first thing I can really remember

00:20:32 The first memory I have um, and I had to bend forward then

00:20:35 um

00:20:38 I guess the second memory I have before kind of chunks go missing. Um, I think I was five

00:20:45 We used we used to have a time share at the beach

00:20:48 Um this predator friend of my parents I was telling you about. Um, me and him and my dad were in the pool

00:20:56 Um, he thought it was funny to just continuously like push my head under the water

00:21:00 As I would try to come up and gasp for air. I couldn't breathe. He just kept pushing down

00:21:05 Um took me a while to get the sense to like swim backwards

00:21:08 Um as I did I would I remember I was like in you know, choking inhaling water. I was crying

00:21:14 I remember thinking that the first time

00:21:17 I remember that was the first time but not the last time thinking like i'm gonna die

00:21:21 And as I got out of the water, they were both just like laughing at me

00:21:27 and

00:21:29 Ran to my mom crying she

00:21:31 It wasn't a big deal

00:21:35 No

00:21:39 After that there's kind of like chunks missing

00:21:42 But other than that, I don't know why I don't know what stopped. I feel like around the time

00:21:47 I was probably

00:21:49 Looking at pictures in like the yearbook. I probably was like

00:21:53 Third fourth grade. I kind of just stopped doing that. I started dressing more feminine. I wasn't like feminine, but it was um

00:22:00 I wasn't dressing like a boy anymore. I didn't I don't think I identified with a boy at that point

00:22:05 As a boy at that point

00:22:07 um

00:22:08 all the pictures

00:22:10 All the pictures that I looked at me when I was a kid

00:22:12 They were I was just either making a stank face like I was unhappy or I was just very sad

00:22:17 Um, I just can't remember the timeline of that. Um

00:22:23 Elementary school. Okay elementary school my um

00:22:26 Um, I was telling you my mom made me do a million of activities

00:22:30 Um, my time wasn't my own I had um, I had to have straight A's in school. She enrolled me in karate

00:22:36 I had that three to three nights a week saturday mornings. I was in piano. I had that two nights a week

00:22:43 Um, she throughout you know, different seasons. She had me in different sports. She had me

00:22:49 Um, I had flute one point like I I just I didn't get a choice in any of these things

00:22:54 She just made me do them. She enrolled me in all of them

00:22:57 Um, I always had something to do. I always had this pressure on me if I wasn't doing well enough

00:23:03 um from my mom, there was the yelling there was the

00:23:06 Screaming the you're not good enough the intense pressure and I was able to relax

00:23:12 um all the while

00:23:15 from my dad he was um

00:23:17 he was a perverted man, um, he was

00:23:20 i'm kind of crossing over but um

00:23:23 He was always screaming at me every day he screamed at me every day him and my mom screamed, uh,

00:23:29 Brett's um, there wasn't many physical issues physical altercations when I was young a couple pushing up against pushing me up against the wall like

00:23:38 Putting a fist to me threatening to hit me threatening to hurt me if I didn't eat my oatmeal or like if I

00:23:45 Whatever it was just a random thing

00:23:47 Um, so where he was a pervert he would just he was very obsessed with like sex. He he would walk around naked

00:23:55 um, he would uh, just have like really scandalous movies playing on the tv he would like

00:24:01 Listen to porn on his phone or on um, I guess not at that point

00:24:05 He didn't have we didn't have phones

00:24:07 But on his computer in the room and it would just be like audible my mom all the while, you know

00:24:12 Turn that off and nag nag nag, but it was just a really

00:24:15 Uncomfortable stressful environment. I don't feel like my dad sexually assaulted me

00:24:21 um

00:24:24 I don't feel like that's accurate. Um

00:24:27 I just remember thinking, you know, very small age like why is my dad not like other dads, you know, I went to a christian school

00:24:37 I saw

00:24:38 But what I thought was, you know good relationships between fathers and their daughters and I was just was really confused

00:24:45 And I didn't understand why my dad wasn't normal like that

00:24:47 Why he would be hospitalized for times on end and when he wasn't he was either angry or he was depressed and I just didn't understand

00:24:55 Very young age. I started stopped calling him by dad. I started calling him by his name

00:24:59 Probably elementary school. I started calling him just by his name to his face and to other people

00:25:04 um

00:25:09 See, I think that's elementary school that I can remember. Um

00:25:12 I wasn't very interested in boys

00:25:17 middle elementary or middle school, I remember my friends they were they were very like

00:25:20 Like oh crushes and things and I wasn't interested in girls either. I was just like I don't get it. I don't like that

00:25:27 Like not if my you know, this is what a relationship is like my with my parents like I don't want that

00:25:33 I'm not interested in that. I also didn't have time to think about that because I was always doing something

00:25:38 um

00:25:40 Um, my you know veiled threats

00:25:44 Random times throughout the years. Um high school, I guess we're gonna start there. Um

00:25:50 I remember

00:25:52 Just kind of being upset with my mom telling her like my you know, I don't want to do any of this anymore

00:25:56 She finally let me quit all these things

00:25:59 Um, my time became my own at this point

00:26:02 Um, but I didn't really know what to do with it. Um, I kind of just did stuff to make me feel better

00:26:07 Um, I started dating probably 10th grade

00:26:11 um, I started um

00:26:14 You know being in random activities that started um random activities to take up my time. Um

00:26:21 Different coping mechanisms that weren't sustainable that I started dissociating into those. Um

00:26:30 Probably high school was more of the time where in high school and right after high school was more of the time where my dad

00:26:35 was physically

00:26:36 um

00:26:37 Violent with me where he's tried to kill me. Um

00:26:39 He's didn't want me to take the car one time. I think I was like 17. I was driving

00:26:45 um

00:26:47 He did something with the brakes on my car. So when I

00:26:50 Went to drive the car. I was with my friend. Um, I was coming up to a red light driving and the brakes weren't working

00:26:58 um, and I remember I was panicking and I just kept pumping the brakes and then

00:27:02 somehow it just suddenly stopped peeled off on the side of the road my car was smoking it was like

00:27:07 um, just

00:27:09 There was like a fire under the hood

00:27:11 um called my mom to come pick me up found out that that my dad fucked with the fuck with the

00:27:17 I don't know exactly what he did, but he clipped some some sort of cord because he didn't want to um

00:27:23 Sorry, how did you find that out?

00:27:26 Um, he my mom he told my mom apparently

00:27:29 He told my mom that that's what he did and my mom told me that

00:27:35 Uh, yeah, I certainly don't mean to doubt

00:27:39 The dangers of your father, but it's your mom

00:27:43 I mean, I can't imagine she's the most reliable witness in these kinds of things

00:27:47 That's true

00:27:49 Yeah, I guess I guess um just given other issues that we've had I just kind of believed believed it

00:27:56 um

00:27:58 He's throwing my head into the wall made a hole into the wall. I had a concussion from that

00:28:03 um, he's tried to choke me out. He's punched me in the face. He's

00:28:07 um, so just given all of that information, like I figured I just figured it was correct, but

00:28:13 I guess I don't know for sure with the car

00:28:16 Um

00:28:21 Right again, i'm not i'm not trying to doubt the danger of your uh, dad but uh, uh

00:28:27 It it would be something I mean whatever your mom says I guess is somewhat suspect but again

00:28:33 I mean your dad's dangerous and as you say he gave you a concussion and

00:28:36 is uh

00:28:38 Yeah, he's a very dangerous fellow. So I certainly sympathize with all of that

00:28:42 but I was just curious because I mean it could be

00:28:44 just something wrong with the car, but

00:28:47 that's

00:28:49 um

00:28:49 that was sort of my my question about where where you would find that out from or like if he confessed to you or something

00:28:54 like that, but

00:28:55 Like if you say he confessed to your mom and then she says

00:28:58 Okay

00:28:59 So, i'm, sorry, we got to you. I think mid-teens

00:29:02 Okay now, uh with regards to the screaming you said sort of daily screaming and so on

00:29:09 uh, what happened with

00:29:12 uh physical uh violence

00:29:13 I mean you say of course that your father was physically physically violent was he

00:29:17 did he use it as a rage thing rage infliction or did he use it as a

00:29:22 a quote a discipline tool or or how was the physical violence between

00:29:26 Your mom and your dad and you how did that play out?

00:29:30 Yeah, um my dad he it was more of a rage thing. Um, he he would um, something would piss him off and then he would react

00:29:39 Um, so sometime, you know, i'd see him hit my older my older sister sometimes

00:29:44 My middle sister was a little bit more timid. She'd kind of run away and hide but me but um

00:29:49 My older sister and me we would kind of give it back to him. So we it would be um

00:29:54 Just a random thing he would do um hit us with something or push us or

00:29:59 Something along those lines. He didn't really take a disciplinary role. I mean he spanked me a couple times maybe with a belt

00:30:07 My mom though would take the disciplinary role

00:30:09 Um, she spanked me

00:30:12 Probably every day in my elementary years

00:30:14 Um, she would use objects shoes paddles. I remember she had like broke a wooden paddle

00:30:20 Like a thick beach ball wooden paddle like over over my ass once

00:30:24 um, she you know, even in adulthood she'd make jokes about like, um

00:30:28 Do you need you know? Oh, I had to spank you every day

00:30:31 I would ask you do you need to start the day with a spanking so you would act right?

00:30:35 Um, she's pulled off the side of the road before with friends. I've had friends in the car

00:30:39 She's pulled off on the side of the road because I talked back to her to spank me on the side of the road

00:30:43 um

00:30:45 It was kind of just an everyday

00:30:47 At least I can't it's kind of a blur but like it felt like an everyday

00:30:50 kind of thing, um

00:30:53 She told me I needed it to act right that's what she would say. Um

00:30:57 But so that's kind of where the disciplinary side came from from her

00:31:04 Right. Okay. And were there any rules that were ever consistently enforced? It was just sort of rage reaction stuff

00:31:09 Mostly rage reaction stuff. Um, I think I like to piss her off too. Um, I would

00:31:16 Say things because I would point out the contradictions and what she would say and what she would do

00:31:21 And she really hated that. Um

00:31:23 the um

00:31:33 I'm sorry. Can you can you ask the question one more time?

00:31:35 Well, I mean were there any rules that were ever consistently enforced just sort of rage reaction stuff?

00:31:41 Like was there any way I guess of navigating?

00:31:43 the violence

00:31:45 So that you had any sense of predictability

00:31:47 Oh, okay. Um, no

00:31:50 there really wasn't um

00:31:53 and I think if I like I think maybe if I

00:32:00 Didn't talk back to her as much maybe I wouldn't have gotten

00:32:03 I wouldn't have um had the brunt of her force as much but I don't think as a kid. I don't think I cared

00:32:09 As a kid, I think it just really bothered me. Like I remember thinking like it really bothered me

00:32:13 That she would be she wouldn't protect me from my father and I would always kind of call her out on that

00:32:20 um

00:32:23 And

00:32:25 So, no, I don't I don't there wasn't really any predictability to it

00:32:31 It kind of just seemed like if she was stressed it would happen more

00:32:34 Um, she worked of course. She had a caffeine addiction

00:32:37 Um, she was always hyper stressed. Um, she did all the child rearing herself

00:32:42 Essentially, my parents were married, but my mom was definitely like a single mom

00:32:46 My dad didn't help out other than him working when he could if he wasn't

00:32:50 Psychiatrically, um having issues, um, he would work but other than that, he didn't do anything with us

00:32:56 Um didn't prepare he didn't even know what grade I was in most of the time. He'd call me by the wrong name

00:33:01 most of the time, um

00:33:03 So, um, no, I guess there was no predictability really in that

00:33:08 Right, right, um, and I I suppose the finances kind of came and went right

00:33:15 If your dad's working sometimes not working sometimes

00:33:18 Yeah, I mean we were upper middle class i'd say

00:33:22 Um, I remember my mom would always be stressed out about money, especially because my dad were here and you know, sometimes he wouldn't

00:33:28 um, but

00:33:30 You know, I went to a private school. It was expensive

00:33:32 Um, we had a you know, nice-ish house. I never I don't know. I'm i know my mom was very stressed about it

00:33:40 She was always she always put herself in debt

00:33:42 um

00:33:44 Different ways doing different things refinancing the house

00:33:47 um

00:33:51 But yeah, I mean we never really went without anything. Um, my mom was a big minute whenever like my dad would um,

00:33:58 Do something which was practically on a regular basis

00:34:02 My mom would kind of um, if she started to feel sympathetic or not sympathetic

00:34:06 She started to want to manipulate me. Essentially. She would just buy us gifts

00:34:10 Um, that's kind of the way she would try to get me to sympathize with her. Um, when I told you she actually left here

00:34:18 Um the other day I found like she left gifts

00:34:21 um for my girls, so

00:34:24 Um, it's just kind of old trick that she's always had to get to get me to empathize with her

00:34:29 Right, right, okay. Okay. And then what happened after school?

00:34:35 Um, what kind of

00:34:39 After I graduated or what? Yeah after you graduate high school, what happened then?

00:34:42 Um after I graduated I started doing some

00:34:46 Um community college stuff. I didn't really know what I wanted to do

00:34:49 Kind of was directionless there

00:34:52 Mostly just started going out

00:34:54 partying drinking

00:34:57 Um having boyfriends. I always had a boyfriend

00:35:00 um

00:35:02 It was very very easy for me to get a boyfriend. I didn't really have to try hard. Um

00:35:06 Let's see, I ended up going into nursing school, um, the stress of that

00:35:15 It was just a five-day-a-week like ruling program. Um, I fit stress of that I had a breakup at the same time

00:35:21 I was living in my parents house at that time

00:35:24 Um, that's when I kind of all these intolerable feelings started coming out and I went into like a kind of a depressive episode

00:35:31 I guess you could say and that's when um

00:35:33 That's when I went through my suicidal episode. Um,

00:35:37 I keep wanting an episode, but I just had suicidal thoughts

00:35:41 Um and intentions I had a plan. Um

00:35:44 Um, I had a plan to to kill myself

00:35:51 Um

00:35:54 Once I had the means though in the moment, I kind of I don't I don't really know what it was

00:35:58 I don't know. Um, I grew up a christian

00:36:01 So I don't I at the time I thought it was my faith

00:36:03 But I don't it was just something inside me that was just really telling me

00:36:07 No, this is not this is not right. This is not

00:36:11 You know, this is not what you need to do. This is not it's not the answer. Um,

00:36:16 And so I decided to okay well if I

00:36:19 You know, I got to get better. I have to feel better

00:36:22 I have you know, all the my coping mechanisms aren't working so I have to you know, do something to feel better

00:36:27 So I went on um

00:36:29 Psychiatric medication I went on zoloft

00:36:31 I was on that for like five years. Um

00:36:34 Started to feel better

00:36:40 I kind of started pushing all these feelings down. Um at that time my mom

00:36:43 took you know for during my issue my mom took off that time off of work and

00:36:48 Take took care of me at my in that point. I thought she was taking care of me

00:36:52 I became very sympathetic to her during that for some reason

00:36:56 Um, she it was the first time I ever felt like she was there for me

00:36:59 It was the first time I ever thought that like she cared about me

00:37:02 um

00:37:06 And then on top of that

00:37:07 Maybe a month or so of me being on the meds. It started to feel a bit better

00:37:11 She was walking across the street on her way to work. She worked at she's also a nurse

00:37:16 Worked at a busy hospital. She got hit by a car crossing the street

00:37:19 um

00:37:22 She was hospitalized for a few months

00:37:24 Um a lot of surgeries now she she can walk now, but she's definitely has some issues

00:37:33 That made her a very sympathetic person to me in my mind at the time. Um, I felt like I needed to take care of her

00:37:38 um same time my dad

00:37:41 my mom's episode my mom's um incident triggered a catatonic episode in my dad he became

00:37:47 um, just you know started start literally starving himself to death, um would

00:37:52 shit his own pants and wouldn't he would just sit in it and would just not just stare at the wall and like at the

00:37:57 Same time like taking care of my parents simultaneously

00:37:59 and um

00:38:02 I used that word with my well, I guess he um, he lost his caregiver, right?

00:38:06 And then it was required of him that he would take care of someone else and maybe that was a bit overwhelming

00:38:11 Yeah, yeah. He um, he just he went into and he just couldn't talk just stare. He just stare at you

00:38:19 um, I try to take him to the doctor a couple times I remember the doctor saying like he looks like a cancer patient like

00:38:24 His eyes were sunken into his head his um, just a little backstory

00:38:28 His mom actually starved herself to death in her old age and that's how she died

00:38:32 um, my

00:38:34 My dad was doing that

00:38:35 And so i'm trying to take care of my mom

00:38:37 In the hospital in rehab i'm trying to take care of my dad. I had to I had to end up

00:38:43 Bringing him to a psych ward because he couldn't even keep down food. So I was simultaneously taking care of the two of them

00:38:51 trying to um

00:38:54 Scrounge together what cash I could to pay the bills

00:38:57 Um, I was just becoming on like I just was like newly on anti. Um, antidepressants at the time too

00:39:03 So it was just a stressful time

00:39:06 um

00:39:08 Not eventually my mom got better my dad quote got better. Um,

00:39:11 Um became very sympathetic to my mom's situation after that

00:39:16 Literally a month or two later. I met my now husband. Um, don't at the time

00:39:23 I just didn't understand what he saw in me. But um

00:39:27 I um, you know went back to nursing school finished nursing school

00:39:31 Um, let's see finished nursing school, um me and my boyfriend at the time lived to get moved in together

00:39:40 Um, then we got engaged started planning this wedding

00:39:44 Had a big wedding planned

00:39:47 um

00:39:48 My husband was always watching your shows into philosophy. I think slowly over time

00:39:53 He was always trying to kind of bring me into that world. I think I was I wasn't very receptive to it

00:39:58 I think I didn't really understand he had his own issues too. So he kind of at the time I felt like he was being critical

00:40:04 Um, but I you know, I understand he was who he was at that point. Um,

00:40:08 But the us

00:40:13 We were planning this wedding all these intolerable feelings were coming up towards my parents

00:40:19 I was starting to get you know, I started um seeing a life coach at this time

00:40:23 The same one my husband was seeing and he was helping talk some sense into me. Um, and I thank him for that. Um,

00:40:29 And I had seen him probably for like a year off now and I want to say coming up to this wedding

00:40:36 um, and so

00:40:39 um

00:40:40 You know, I thought this wedding I was having this picture like oh it's going to be this wonderful event

00:40:44 And it's going to be this magical time where my friends and family are going to come together and get married

00:40:49 It's gonna be great

00:40:50 And then I just was realizing like the more stress was coming on coming closer and closer to this wedding

00:40:54 Me and my husband were like this is not the case. This is horrible. This is stressful

00:40:58 Um, so we decided to call it quits on the wedding. We eloped

00:41:03 At the same time I had been preparing for months at this point

00:41:07 I had been preparing a confrontation with my mom had wrote a like a 10 page paper for my mom

00:41:14 um

00:41:15 You know invited her over to my apartment at the time. Um had this read the paper to her

00:41:21 Um, I felt at that point

00:41:24 You know, like I really stood up for myself. I felt really proud of myself at that point

00:41:29 Um, you were talking about the last conversation about having hype music i've been listening to that

00:41:33 Recording of me just kind of going off on her as hype music

00:41:37 um lately, um

00:41:39 but

00:41:43 So she um, of course it went horribly she denied everything

00:41:47 um

00:41:50 It didn't go well. So at that point I decided to cut her and my dad out of my life

00:41:53 Um, that's that was about a year and a half ago

00:41:57 You know haven't talked to them since except what I kind of filled you in last time

00:42:01 She's been trying to communicate with me trying to get me to sympathize with her trying blanket apologies, you know, not going anywhere

00:42:08 Um, and then we're kind of where we are at where she showed up at my door the other day

00:42:13 um

00:42:15 So I probably skipped over a lot of things but that's

00:42:17 That's like the summary of it

00:42:20 and

00:42:21 when

00:42:23 She puts forward these sort of blanket apologies about what happened to you as a child what they did to you

00:42:28 As a child and I guess as a as a young woman what sort of communication is going on there?

00:42:34 What is what is the sort of stuff that she's saying?

00:42:36 Um

00:42:39 Just like oh i'm sorry if I hurt you i'm sorry for what I could have done to upset you

00:42:43 um, just obviously not

00:42:46 feeling

00:42:47 like not having any empathy for me at all like just

00:42:50 plainest day obvious like how

00:42:52 Can you not even like if you if you in your quote unquote you say you care about me?

00:42:57 You can't even think for a minute that that you like actually are listening to what i'm saying

00:43:02 And i'm showing any curiosity about what i'm saying like you're just kind of

00:43:07 Just oh

00:43:09 I'll say this thing and you should just accept me now. I remember at one point

00:43:11 She said well, you have to accept me for how I am

00:43:14 And and that was in that i'm not sure why?

00:43:17 I'm, not sure why

00:43:19 I mean as a kid they they sure didn't accept you for who you were

00:43:23 They could have beat you and yelled screamed at you and wanted you to change all the time. So

00:43:27 uh, I don't know why they why on earth would I have to accept people for who they are that's

00:43:32 I mean and that that's the kind of poisonous thinking that

00:43:37 May have contributed to the death of your sister, right?

00:43:40 Which is you know, I mean her husband. Well, you have to accept me for who I am. It's like well

00:43:45 kind of a dangerous lunatic and murder suicide guy, so

00:43:48 So she says i'm sorry if you are upset by anything I did. Is that right?

00:43:54 Yeah, kind of just like the things like that. Yeah, right. So so that's a way of saying well

00:44:03 um anyone who would find offense in my behavior is incomprehensible, but

00:44:09 If you're one of those incomprehensible crazy people, I guess i'm sorry

00:44:14 It would be kind of like if I go to japan and I don't know some local custom

00:44:18 And I don't do something or I do something that's against the local custom

00:44:23 I don't take off my hat when passing in front of a shrine or something like that, right?

00:44:28 I mean, I would apologize but I wouldn't feel like I was a bad person

00:44:33 I'd be like, oh i'm really sorry that I didn't

00:44:35 Know this ritual like I mean i'm not i'm not going to get mad at myself for not knowing a particular

00:44:39 ritual or thing

00:44:42 Uh, and and so on right so it's kind of like saying well, there's nothing objectively wrong with what I did

00:44:47 But if you are so crazy and hypersensitive that you just happen to be offended by it, I guess i'm sorry for that

00:44:53 Is it sort of like that

00:44:58 Right, right

00:45:00 And so yeah, of course, there's no ownership and I assume of course that there's no

00:45:04 uh, you know i've um, i'm going to therapy i'm

00:45:08 You know, whatever she might be reading all these books anger management. I'm i'm reading about child abuse and its effects and

00:45:14 Is there anything to do with anything?

00:45:17 I mean i'm i'm almost kind of know the answer but I just wanted to double check. Is there anything that goes on like that?

00:45:22 With my mom you're asking. Yeah. Yeah. Is your mom like making taking any steps to

00:45:28 Try and figure out what happened like therapy or reading or something like that?

00:45:32 No, and my first

00:45:34 confrontation with her in my paper

00:45:36 I wrote all those things like

00:45:37 You know at that point I wasn't quite sure if I wanted her in my life or not

00:45:40 I wanted to I kind of knew how the conversation would go, but I kind of wanted to give her that opportunity

00:45:45 So I said, you know if you wish to be in my life

00:45:48 Like I require you to go to therapy I require you to be curious about me

00:45:51 Well, this you know these things that of course weren't going to happen

00:45:55 Um, she made zero attempt at all at any of those

00:45:59 Um, I told her actually also told her if she wanted to be in my life. She needed to leave my dad. Um,

00:46:04 Didn't want to do that

00:46:06 um, so

00:46:07 Even though she financially is capable of taking care of herself

00:46:10 Um, she didn't want to do that

00:46:12 um, and so she wrote me a letter back that was kind of nasty just um,

00:46:17 Putting the blame on me and just again emphasizing how i'm the problem how I was the difficult one

00:46:24 Um, and that kind of just set me off. I wrote like another like 10 15 page paper

00:46:29 Just like going off on her this time

00:46:30 Like the first one I was being you know, sticking it to her and being matter of fact, but not as cruel

00:46:35 The second one I was just kind of just letting my anger go at her

00:46:39 um, and I felt even I just felt like that paper was a banger and like just you know, I I

00:46:44 This entire experience I saved my papers. I saved her paper. I recorded the verbal conversation with her just because I knew as time would pass

00:46:54 You know, I would probably not be as in touch with reality as time would go on and that's obviously the case considering what we had

00:46:59 talked about last time and so I've been listening to that and just kind of like yeah, you know, like

00:47:04 like

00:47:06 I am the hero like in my own story

00:47:08 and

00:47:11 And I just um

00:47:15 You know i've been trying again i've been trying to identify with

00:47:18 With um ethics and morality and

00:47:24 reality

00:47:25 um instead of those intrusive thoughts, um

00:47:28 I'm just kind of speaking truth to that and um

00:47:32 Hope and you know, like you said that's the cure. Um, so

00:47:38 Yeah, and how are you, uh, how are you feeling about things now?

00:47:44 I feel when I feel good I feel like on top of the world. It's great. Um, I feel very hopeful

00:47:53 But like of course i'm just like

00:47:55 It's like eyes eyes low slows and I think that also has to do like i've just been very sensitive to

00:48:00 To that like it's been coming out because of the lack of sleep with you know, newborn twins

00:48:05 um

00:48:07 And I you know my life coach previously told me that like I have a lot

00:48:11 A lot of tears that I have to cry

00:48:14 and

00:48:16 I've been like always trying to figure out like how to put that off like my entire life

00:48:20 Just how can I put that off?

00:48:22 And now like I just i'm very vulnerable especially considering like the lack of sleep and the situation I'm in now

00:48:28 And so, you know I struggle with

00:48:33 Like good like good crying like i'm crying like okay

00:48:37 This is the crying to do the heal and then sometimes it's like

00:48:40 all the intrusive thoughts are are in my head and i'm just like i'm just like hopelessly crying and

00:48:45 It's like it's it's

00:48:48 it's

00:48:50 Pretty it's pretty good most days

00:48:51 But like when i'm alone like when my husband goes to work and i'm just really alone for like he works

00:48:56 He's also a nurse. He works 12 hour shifts and he's asleep when he comes back

00:49:00 So when i'm alone for those extended periods of time and just really underslept

00:49:04 it's like I think that that's just when i'm the most vulnerable and that's when it's really hard for myself to like

00:49:10 to not

00:49:12 Feel sympathetic to my mom and and I not really as much to my dad, but to my mom

00:49:18 And to not let those intrusive thoughts like in that's that's um, that's where i'm at

00:49:23 So what's the case that defends your mom and i'm not saying this cynically or or in order to tear it down but

00:49:30 What what is the case that you make to yourself?

00:49:35 That gives you sympathy for your mom. I mean i'd really like to hear that and again with all

00:49:42 Openness and you know, maybe it's a good case. But what would

00:49:46 What what is that case?

00:49:48 Intellectually there really honestly is none like I I don't have a desire to call my mom up

00:49:55 I don't have a desire to have a relationship with her even in my lowest lows

00:49:59 it's just um

00:50:01 sometimes I feel sympathetic with her like

00:50:03 We we spoke I didn't realize she left the gifts before she came by and knocked on my door

00:50:07 I didn't find out that she left the gifts until like after we got off of our call

00:50:11 and then for some reason I just felt I realized in the moment I felt like sadness for her like

00:50:16 Oh, she feels sad that like her daughter and her grandkids aren't in her life

00:50:22 And I immediately was like, well, I don't like I don't want to call her like I don't intellectually she does like, you know

00:50:27 Okay. Sorry. This is uh

00:50:29 I mean, I appreciate all of this information. But first of all, I mean the gifts are just bribery, right? We're aware of that, right?

00:50:34 Um, but no what's the case?

00:50:36 Right. What's the case for sympathy?

00:50:39 for

00:50:41 you, I mean it's certainly been my experience and this is not obviously a universal thing, but in my experience if

00:50:46 If you have thoughts

00:50:50 Like really make the case make make the steel man case right because if you just fight those thoughts they don't tend to be resolved

00:50:56 Right, so I mean I could make a case for my mom around, you know

00:51:01 Obviously she was brutalized in the war and she saw the entire world blow up and her mother was killed and lord knows what happened

00:51:08 I mean, there was a lot of sexual assaults against all females from the invading russians and i'm sure she got caught up in that

00:51:13 and

00:51:15 So, I mean there's a huge case that I could make for sympathy

00:51:18 uh for my for my mother right and and

00:51:21 I think I think it can be quite helpful to make that case like put your entire mental muscles behind that case and

00:51:29 Uh get get to the core of where that argument is within you

00:51:35 Okay, I understand so my my mom, um her mom

00:51:39 Okay, so my my mom was um raped

00:51:43 I actually don't know the extent but she was sexually assaulted. I think repeatedly by her father

00:51:49 um as a child, um

00:51:52 Her father was a wicked angry man as well. Um, he would

00:51:56 According to my mom who he would beat he would beat. Um

00:52:01 The boys there were seven of them seven siblings and I and I think she she was the oldest daughter

00:52:06 So I think she kind of took the brunt of that sexual assault

00:52:08 This isn't something that my that my mom ever shared with me. This is something I kind of found out

00:52:13 Um, and then I confronted with her when I had that conversation. I asked her I said did your dad

00:52:18 Sexually saw you she said yes, so she admitted to it. Um

00:52:22 But um, yeah her dad her dad was an angry violent person a lot like my dad, um, but he

00:52:31 Actually assaulted her um

00:52:33 Her mom enabled it. Um, she so so yeah, I guess like, you know

00:52:37 I'll feel sympathy for her because I know

00:52:40 That you know, she didn't have it easy and that she is this way because of her childhood

00:52:45 Um, so I think that's probably the case I guess

00:52:48 That's why I sympathize with her sometimes

00:52:52 Yeah, I mean with without a doubt. I mean she's somebody with that kind of personality structure almost certainly went through

00:52:59 some pretty deep

00:53:00 violations and abuses as a child

00:53:02 Ah, but she is who she is because of her childhood

00:53:06 Is that that's the sentence, right?

00:53:10 Well, then why aren't you the same way

00:53:15 Why aren't you who you are because like why aren't you a terrible violent abusive? Whatever mom married to a uh,

00:53:23 a violent abusive guy

00:53:25 Why aren't you the way you are because of your childhood?

00:53:29 I'm just different than her

00:53:31 I've always well, that's not

00:53:34 That's that's why are you different because i'm different that's called the tautology, right? I mean

00:53:39 That's uh, that's not that doesn't add a huge amount of knowledge to the situation, right?

00:53:44 Why are

00:53:47 You why aren't you the way you are?

00:53:49 Because of your childhood because of course if somebody looks back on your childhood and says well

00:53:53 What's she going to be like as a mom, right?

00:53:56 It wouldn't be what you're doing, right?

00:53:58 Or you'd look at your parents'

00:54:02 Marriage, you'd look at your sisters you'd look at all of that and then you'd say with regards to you

00:54:07 well, what kind of man is she gonna marry and

00:54:09 It wouldn't be the guy you married, right?

00:54:13 So

00:54:16 Why is there such a difference between you and others in your family?

00:54:24 Because I have a few maybe answers, um, because

00:54:29 my mom

00:54:31 You know, she let her pain corrupt her and make her an evil person and i'm

00:54:36 I've always tried my best anyway to you know, i've hurt myself. I've never I don't think i've really hurt others

00:54:42 I have but i'm sure but

00:54:45 I've mostly just but you you haven't consciously being cruel to others

00:54:49 You haven't consciously

00:54:51 Being cruel to others. I mean there's the natural sort of rub and chafing of life as a whole where occasionally will upset people and so on

00:54:57 But that's different from you know, beating children in the back seat of a car, right?

00:55:01 Yeah

00:55:03 Okay

00:55:05 Was there a fork in the road?

00:55:07 Where you decided to go one direction not the other was there a fork

00:55:13 In the road, do you remember maybe it was around your suicidality in your early 20s?

00:55:19 but was there a fork in the road where you said i'm not gonna live like this or i'm gonna

00:55:23 start to uh take I mean I remember for me it was when I

00:55:27 I was reading nathaniel brandon's the psychology of self-esteem and it's sort of friendliness towards your emotions

00:55:33 and I was like, I was disappointed by something and

00:55:35 And I was like, okay, let's not just I just waved that away. I was like, I don't want to feel disappointed

00:55:40 That's what is that? What good does that do? Right? And I was like, no, no, let's

00:55:43 Let's let the emotion be let's let the emotion be

00:55:46 in for inform me let me have the emotion and that was sort of the beginning of the journey to just

00:55:50 Getting in touch with my emotions and and not viewing them as dangerous or an enemy because you know when you see people

00:55:56 acting out in crazy ways, it's pretty easy to feel that

00:56:00 Emotions are the enemy that they just make people insane, you know, you've got to be like all spark and no kirk kind of thing

00:56:07 right

00:56:08 so, I mean i'm not trying to say yours has to be like mine, of course, it's different for everyone but

00:56:13 Was there a fork in the road where you remember like i'm not doing this i'm not i'm not going down this road

00:56:18 Um for me, I think you know, it was thanks to my husband

00:56:23 um

00:56:26 Like when he made the case

00:56:28 to like

00:56:31 Have him talk to the life coach that we were talking to

00:56:33 the both of us went separately

00:56:36 um

00:56:38 and just kind of introducing philosophy to me because he you know, he had started listening to your shows like

00:56:43 a bit I think not very long before we started dating and

00:56:46 you know, i'm just trying to have those conversations with me bit by bit and

00:56:50 um

00:56:53 But yeah, I think like once we you know decided that we were going to get married and we were like, okay kids are obvious

00:56:59 The next step because we wouldn't we want to have kids want to bring kids into this world. Like we can't

00:57:04 You know do this to them that would have happened to us

00:57:09 Um, so I think that was definitely that fork in the road moment where I like consciously like it was like, okay

00:57:14 I need to be different and I have to do something different

00:57:18 Um, but yeah, I would say it was definitely thanks to my husband

00:57:23 Was there something he said that you remember or was it sort of a slow progression like was there something

00:57:31 that really landed or was it just erosion of of

00:57:34 avoidance or or dissociation

00:57:38 um, it was a slow thing, I think my

00:57:40 My life coach would say, uh that I had a wall thick as ice or an ice wall

00:57:46 Like around I don't want to be sitting around my heart or something my soul or something and it just kind of slowly

00:57:52 melted over time

00:57:54 um

00:57:56 Not all the way obviously because it's still been struggling with some things now but um

00:58:01 That I think it was a slow progression. Yeah

00:58:06 Okay, and

00:58:08 Why do you think that

00:58:12 You had someone like your husband

00:58:14 I guess your your then boyfriend or whatever

00:58:17 In your life because I remember at the beginning like a little while ago

00:58:20 You said you didn't understand what he was attracted to in you

00:58:23 So why do you think you were able to even have someone? I mean your sisters weren't able to

00:58:29 Do that your mother wasn't able to do that

00:58:31 Why do you think that you were able to have someone like your husband in your life at all?

00:58:34 Um

00:58:36 Um because there was a side of me that he saw that um that he felt

00:58:45 So i'm trying my brain is so tired trying to connect the words, um

00:58:53 Always

00:59:02 You

00:59:04 I'm sorry. Um, okay. So he he saw that um

00:59:10 He he kind of taught me that love is an involuntary response to virtue

00:59:16 Um, and so he saw the virtuous

00:59:19 sides of me that's what he would say and um recently like i'm starting to really like feel

00:59:25 Feel like that is true. It was hard for me been hard for me to really accept that but

00:59:30 That is what?

00:59:32 Um, that is what it is

00:59:34 Okay, and what

00:59:37 Were the virtuous i'm not obviously saying they weren't there, but i'm just curious. What were the virtuous sides

00:59:42 That you think he saw at the beginning

00:59:45 Um, I think he saw

00:59:49 That I had um

00:59:54 kind of I mean it's kind of what you said on your podcast, but like, um, the words that you used exactly here, but

01:00:00 um

01:00:02 I over empathize with like other people. Um, it was to my detriment, of course, but um

01:00:09 He kind of saw that like even though I went through like what I had gone through

01:00:13 um, I decided to not

01:00:16 You know hurt other people in that same way I wanted to be different I wanted to you know

01:00:26 Not go down the same path that my sisters had and that um

01:00:30 My parents had I think I think that's what those virtues were

01:00:35 I didn't know how at the time how to go about it, but I just knew I wanted to be different

01:00:42 Right, right. Okay, okay

01:00:45 And how difficult was it to respond to

01:00:50 The kind of information or perspectives or argument that your I guess then boyfriend later husband was putting forward

01:00:55 Was it tough for you to was there a lot of rebellion? Was there a lot of pushback or was it relatively easy?

01:01:01 Oh

01:01:04 It was difficult i'd say. Um, he he I think he was very unsure

01:01:08 Of how to go about it because I had these walls up

01:01:12 And I mean he was going through his own issues at the same time like he was going he had drug

01:01:17 Issues so that I like we both smoked a lot of marijuana at the time

01:01:21 um, we would both party and like drink a lot like so I think like there was a part of me that was like

01:01:26 Hard to see what he was saying and it kind of like it's it felt a little hypocritical to me at the time

01:01:32 um

01:01:35 I kind of just wanted to be happy with him at first. I was like, well, can you just be happy like, you know?

01:01:38 We'll just do it like

01:01:40 Um, and so when he was trying to introduce these things to me, it just felt you know his language. I've never heard

01:01:45 Concepts i've never heard anyone talk about so it felt strange

01:01:48 I think I would always always use the word like autistic like it just felt a little too particular

01:01:53 I don't I don't know it was it was definitely I had it was definitely a struggle

01:01:57 It was a rebellion for sure for him. I know it was it's been hard

01:02:00 Um, but he's more severe

01:02:03 And he's helped me with that

01:02:06 Right, okay, okay

01:02:11 So do you have I mean we sort of explored a little bit of the the differences. Do you have any sort of idea as to

01:02:17 what might have

01:02:20 been different between

01:02:22 Your parents your sisters

01:02:24 And you was it just you happen to meet the guy but that's also to say I mean obviously your husband's a a great guy

01:02:29 Listen to this show one of a kind, uh fantastic beyond words

01:02:32 um, but do you think that your mother father sister is like never met any gentle or nice people or curious people or

01:02:40 reasonable people in their life

01:02:42 No, they definitely had to have that points. I mean all three of us i'm not gonna say

01:02:47 Oh, this is the answer but like all three of us had gone to a christian private school

01:02:51 um my

01:02:54 sisters

01:02:55 Didn't really I don't know they I don't my oldest sister. It's hard to say because she was 10 years older than me

01:02:59 I can't really say

01:03:01 but my other sister she kind of chose to just um

01:03:05 you know

01:03:07 Hang out with kids that maybe some of the rougher kids some of the kids that

01:03:11 Is she I don't know

01:03:12 She just she didn't do the same things that like I wanted to do like I kind of

01:03:15 I had some father figures in my life at the time that I thought were were good

01:03:20 um, and they were definitely better than my father, but they were not good enough for like philosophical standards, but like at the time like

01:03:26 I thought I had um some male influences in my life that were good. Um, I had some really good friends

01:03:33 I have a really good friend now that i've kept since I was

01:03:37 A kid, um, and she's a very curious person. Um

01:03:40 I think for me like I consciously like I didn't want to be home

01:03:45 So like even when I had that free time when I was in middle school high school

01:03:49 Like I I was able to do certain things. I decided to use that time to not be home

01:03:52 I kind of used boyfriends so I would um, just could be at their house and I didn't have to be at my house

01:03:58 I would always kind of make it a priority to just not be around my family as much as possible

01:04:02 Um, it's not really what my sisters did

01:04:07 Um, I wanted to go to nursing school so I could take care of myself and I wouldn't be dependent on my parents financially

01:04:12 like my other sister was

01:04:14 um

01:04:16 So yeah, I think that that's kind of like at least consciously the things that I did

01:04:19 I chose to do differently when I was young

01:04:22 Right, okay

01:04:26 So, I mean you took responsibility for your own mental health

01:04:29 You recognized the trauma and you started to I think do the important stuff to help

01:04:34 Process that is that a fair way to put it?

01:04:36 Okay, right so

01:04:40 Given that you

01:04:44 Took ownership

01:04:45 Self-responsibility and that you didn't act out even as a child

01:04:48 And you made not just different choices, but completely opposing choices

01:04:53 Then it seems to me with regards to your mother

01:04:57 I mean the challenging thing that happens with our parents is by the time we meet them

01:05:02 They don't usually have much functional free will I mean if they're really dysfunctional, right? They don't

01:05:06 Have much functional free will because if you act badly for long enough, you can't choose to act well

01:05:13 I mean for me it's always been kind of confusing like well just take responsibility and apologize, you know

01:05:21 Just take responsibility and apologize

01:05:24 But

01:05:28 Because for me that's not the end of the world, right?

01:05:29 I mean, it's not a super fun process or anything like that. But you know, it's an okay process just take responsibility and apologize

01:05:35 But that's different for me because I don't have a bad conscience

01:05:40 I'm, absolutely not a perfect person by any means, but I don't have a really bad conscience and

01:05:44 so for me to take ownership

01:05:46 And apologize

01:05:49 Is not that huge a deal, but it seems to me it seems to me

01:05:53 That what what's kind of incomprehensible about these people the double downers like they just double down like no matter what happens

01:05:59 They just escalate and double down or avoid or like there's no

01:06:02 Functional free will they're like npcs of avoidance and they don't seem to have any capacity to choose anything different and that of course

01:06:09 Can give us some sympathy? Well, gee if they don't seem to have the ability

01:06:14 To change their mind or or or apologize or take responsibility

01:06:18 You know, they're clearly so broken that you know what I mean like that sort of sympathy thing

01:06:22 but

01:06:25 You know, that's sort of like saying to your grandfather who's been smoking for 40 years come and join me on a run

01:06:30 And it's like no he can't join you on a run he's been smoking for 40 years like you can't do that

01:06:36 but at one point

01:06:39 Right, like every smoker starts off by trying a cigarette, which is a choice

01:06:43 And then having another cigarette which is a choice and having another like every smoker starts off

01:06:50 With a bunch of choices and then after decades of those choices

01:06:55 They don't have other choices. They can't do running. They they can't be healthy. They whatever like their lungs can't be healthy

01:07:01 And so when we look at them when they're older and we say gosh, you know, they're just these

01:07:07 People who don't seem to have any choice and all they do is react and

01:07:11 We have some sympathy for that, but that's because we forget or we weren't around for

01:07:16 The times

01:07:20 When they had choices like I remember talking to someone who was cruel to me as a child and this person

01:07:26 Said, you know like every day I woke up

01:07:29 I wanted to be nicer and it was like a really and they really knew that it was bad

01:07:33 They they really wanted to do better. They they promised themselves, but they just indulged

01:07:37 In this sort of cruelty or coldness or hostility or whatever right manipulation

01:07:42 So looking at your mother now, I mean does she have any particular choice to take responsibility

01:07:50 I mean, I wouldn't put any money on it. I mean who knows in the magical ether of free will whether there's something that's but

01:07:56 I wouldn't put any money on it whatsoever

01:07:58 I wouldn't put like one penny. I wouldn't put one satoshi on

01:08:01 on your mom

01:08:04 Developing free will a conscience moral responsibility

01:08:07 Empathy like any of these things, right?

01:08:10 That is like asking a guy who's been smoking for 40 years to run a marathon

01:08:16 So

01:08:20 Looking at how different you are

01:08:22 Comes back to usually a um

01:08:28 A choice a fork in the road and every person I know and this is not any kind of infinite sampling, of course

01:08:35 But every person I know who's taken a bad path had a choice at some point

01:08:39 Had a choice had an attack of conscience had

01:08:43 You know a choice at some point. I mean even my mom. I know my mom regretted

01:08:49 uh

01:08:50 beating beating me up and stuff like that because you know, she'd come into my room and hold my hand and sniff and like

01:08:55 afterwards and so

01:08:57 I pretend to sleep because I just didn't want to talk about it. But I know my mom felt bad about it. I know

01:09:02 um, my dad had had his attacks of conscience I so

01:09:06 When you see her now

01:09:10 She's kind of like a machine and and you look and you say well gee

01:09:13 maybe she never really had any choice and maybe she's just was victimized and and so on but

01:09:18 She was brutalized and of course we can all have sympathy for that for sure. Absolutely

01:09:22 But my sympathy ends

01:09:25 when people harm others

01:09:27 My sympathy for people being harmed is virtually bottomless

01:09:30 My sympathy for those who harm others and in particular children

01:09:34 Uh, that's not something that I feel to any particular degree. That's not something that I

01:09:40 I experienced in fact, uh, I mean because you have to I mean you because if we have sympathy for them being harmed

01:09:48 Then we have anger towards those who harmed them, right?

01:09:50 I mean, that's the flip side of sympathy is anger, right?

01:09:53 Like real sympathy for you know

01:09:55 What happened to your mother as a child with her father a great sympathy for that

01:09:58 Which means I have to be angry at her father who violated her in such a horrendous and evil manner

01:10:04 Okay, so if I have sympathy for people who are harmed i'm going to have anger at the people who harmed them

01:10:09 And so given that your mother harmed you and your father harmed you I would have anger towards them

01:10:17 Because otherwise what's the point of sympathy right sympathy means i'm very sorry that you were hurt

01:10:21 Which means that you're angry at the people who hurt right?

01:10:23 uh, which is why you know if somebody is

01:10:27 harmed by some natural

01:10:29 Phenomenon, you know, they I don't know something falls on them when they're hiking or some tree branch or something

01:10:35 We have we have sympathy but we don't have anger at the tree because the tree didn't choose to harm them

01:10:41 It's just sort of bad luck

01:10:43 So

01:10:46 The sympathy for people who are harmed

01:10:48 Has to have as its clear line and demarcation anger at the people who harmed them

01:10:54 And the anger at the people who harmed them is that they had some choice in the matter

01:11:00 They had some choice in the matter like the tree branch that falls on you when you're hiking doesn't have any choice

01:11:06 It's just physics and biology and and there's no free will there's no morality

01:11:10 Involved that so the question is of course did your parents?

01:11:16 Have any free will when they were harming you now if they if they didn't have any free will

01:11:21 when they were harming you then it would be more sort of like

01:11:24 A mother who accidentally smacks a kid because she has her first epileptic seizure

01:11:30 Like we don't blame the mom. It's like well, that's really unfortunate. There was no warning

01:11:33 It's not a moral thing you or Tourette's, you know, the people who swear with Tourette's

01:11:37 That's not a moral choice to be verbally harsh or abusive

01:11:41 So did they have?

01:11:45 free will

01:11:46 when they were harming you

01:11:48 and I guess that's the end of my speech at the beginning of the question which is

01:11:53 Do you think that they had free will and moral responsibility when they were harming you?

01:11:57 They made the choice repeatedly

01:12:03 And what makes you think that

01:12:08 Um, well for one

01:12:12 That I would tell them

01:12:14 Why are you treating me this way?

01:12:16 why aren't you treating me differently and then they would as you say make the choice to double down and

01:12:21 do it anyway, they could have they could have at least had a little bit of humility and

01:12:26 You know apologize started to attempt to make changes, but they didn't they chose

01:12:32 Not to they just kept choosing to do it again

01:12:35 Uh, yes, but how do you know it was a choice?

01:12:38 Um

01:12:44 Because they have free will

01:12:46 Uh, that's kind of how do you know they had free will because they had free will again

01:12:49 That's a bit of a circular argument, right?

01:12:51 Yeah

01:12:53 I'm, not sure

01:12:55 Well

01:12:57 When they harmed you when they would when they would yell at you, right?

01:13:00 Did they yell at you with the goal of changing your behavior or did they at least say that?

01:13:05 Yeah, they said that

01:13:08 So give me an example of what?

01:13:10 Either one of your parents would say

01:13:12 With regards to getting you to change your behavior based upon their punishment or yelling

01:13:17 I guess i've started bringing this earlier. So i'll go with that one. Um

01:13:24 I remember in the mornings, I wouldn't want to eat my oatmeal and so my dad would yell at me that I need to eat my oatmeal

01:13:32 um

01:13:34 And if I don't then I mean there's really wasn't much of an argument. Um, just you need to eat it

01:13:39 Or i'm angry. Um

01:13:42 Essentially

01:13:44 Um, so sorry go ahead money I spent money on this you can't waste it you need to eat it kind of thing

01:13:51 Right, okay. Got it. Got it now

01:13:55 Your father's practice would indicate that he believed that the application of negative stimuli could change your behavior

01:14:04 Right, I mean if I if I yell at you that's negative stimuli

01:14:11 If I say you're ungrateful how you didn't

01:14:13 I'm, sorry. I don't want to imitate your father

01:14:16 It's gross, but you know like like I I paid good money for this and and how dare you waste it and you know

01:14:22 You think I made a month like all of it so he would provide rational at least to him. He would provide arguments

01:14:27 Let's say arguments and negative

01:14:29 Stimuli in order to get you to uh, eat your oatmeal, right?

01:14:33 Uh, sorry, I didn't quite catch that

01:14:38 Yes, that's what yeah, so that's right. So he accepted

01:14:41 That there was a free will in you right he accepted that you have free will

01:14:47 Because he didn't say to himself. Well

01:14:51 There's no there's no chance to change her behavior because she doesn't have free will

01:14:56 Right, I mean if if he was yelling at I don't know if he had a if he had a doll propped up at the table

01:15:02 And was yelling at the doll

01:15:04 that the doll was mean and selfish because it didn't eat the doll didn't eat the

01:15:07 The porridge right then that would be crazy, right?

01:15:11 Because the doll is an inanimate object that has no free will and can't change its mind like that would be the indication of

01:15:16 a severe break with reality, right?

01:15:19 So he's applying reason at least his he's let's say he's applying arguments

01:15:26 And negative stimuli in order to get you to change your behavior, which means he accepts that you have free will as a child, right?

01:15:32 So he accepts the existence of free will

01:15:35 In in children, right

01:15:39 So why can't he have that as well?

01:15:42 Well, no, I mean so he he knows that human beings possess the capacity for free will

01:15:48 Right because he wanted to change your mind and change your behavior

01:15:54 By bringing you arguments and yelling or whatever, right?

01:16:01 Right

01:16:03 Does that make sense

01:16:06 Yeah

01:16:08 Now did you and your mother?

01:16:10 of course

01:16:12 By leaving you gifts

01:16:14 Now these aren't gifts. The reason I call them bribes

01:16:17 Is you already told your mother?

01:16:20 What a gift would be

01:16:23 You already told your mother what a gift would be

01:16:29 And and you did that in the letter you wrote to her where you said well the present that you could give to me the

01:16:33 Gift you could give to me would be what?

01:16:35 Yeah, go into therapy self-knowledge self-ownership responsibility whatever I go to there so you already told her

01:16:46 The gifts that you want, right?

01:16:49 I mean if if my wife wants

01:16:54 I don't know xyz for breakfast. Sorry for for christmas

01:16:57 She wants some particular gift for christmas and she's told me repeatedly

01:17:00 And I buy her a vacuum cleaner

01:17:02 I mean do I then get to say, you know, how come you're so ungrateful at the gift the gift I gave you, right?

01:17:09 So, I mean that comes from a meme. I saw some months ago about this woman

01:17:14 Uh, hey, I saw this guy lining up to buy his wife a vacuum cleaner for christmas

01:17:19 It feels strange to be standing next to someone who only has days left to live. It's kind of funny

01:17:24 but

01:17:25 so

01:17:27 you already told her what she wanted and she gave you something you didn't want it, but

01:17:31 She's saying that positive stimuli is important

01:17:37 Right i'm going to give you gifts because positive stimuli is important, right and I don't know if your parents

01:17:45 applied any

01:17:47 positive like reward because they gave you the negative stimuli like the attacks and the violence and so on or

01:17:52 Cutting the brakes or whatever he did, right? So they gave you the negative stimuli and mountains of it. Did they ever provide positive?

01:17:59 Stimuli like rewards or benefits or cuddles or praise or anything like that?

01:18:03 Um, not my dad, but my mom my mom would like when I was young she would want to cuddle

01:18:10 um

01:18:12 She I don't really remember there being a specific reason for it. Just sometimes she would want to um

01:18:16 She would always buy me gifts. I think if she was feeling guilty

01:18:19 For something she'd just buy me stuff

01:18:22 Um, maybe it was something I wanted maybe it wasn't but but yeah, I guess that was the positive

01:18:27 But that was for her, right

01:18:31 So was there ever anything like, you know get an a and

01:18:36 You can get a present or or if you do like was there any i'm not saying there should or shouldn't have been i'm just

01:18:42 curious if there was any

01:18:44 positive incentives

01:18:46 That your parents like when my mom would read my writing if she liked a particular passage

01:18:50 She'd give me good praise for it and so on. So there was some positive

01:18:53 I'm, not saying she was I think she was being honest about it

01:18:56 but

01:18:57 There was positive stuff as well as the negative

01:19:00 Um, I mean she would tell me she was proud of me I guess for cert when I would

01:19:06 Accomplish certain things or when I would work hard on hard on something that I felt good about or um

01:19:13 No, I did did um something I did want to do I did choir at a young age

01:19:18 So when I would do a performance or something she would

01:19:20 provide that positive

01:19:23 feedback

01:19:25 For things like that, okay got it

01:19:26 Okay, so your parents at least your your mother operated on positive and negative feedback in order to get you to change your behavior

01:19:33 Yeah

01:19:35 Okay, so they accept free will

01:19:38 And they accept that

01:19:41 That positive and negative that arguments and positive and negative incentives

01:19:46 Are what you do to get people to change their minds, right?

01:19:49 Right so

01:19:57 And of course they debated with you. They didn't debate

01:19:59 with

01:20:01 The furniture they didn't debate with the car. They didn't debate with gravity right that they only debated

01:20:07 with other human beings or only ever

01:20:11 Tried to change the minds of other human beings so they recognized that I mean this is real foundational philosophical and it sounds very abstract

01:20:18 But to me, it's very deep psychologically

01:20:20 That your parents completely and totally accepted

01:20:23 free will

01:20:26 And that the way to change someone's behavior

01:20:29 Is arguments and positive and negative incentives?

01:20:34 Okay

01:20:38 now

01:20:39 You and I also have some positive and negative incentives, right?

01:20:42 I mean, I want to speak for you. I'll just let me just speak for myself. So I have positive and negative incentives

01:20:47 so when it came to talking about some of the more controversial things I talked about one of the positive incentives was

01:20:53 I really feel that I really felt and still feel that it was important for the world to hear the truth about sort of

01:20:58 controversial matters

01:21:00 So that was the positive incentive that I would feel a certain amount of of

01:21:03 um, not happiness exactly, but

01:21:07 I would feel uh content with my integrity if I told talked about important things that needed to be said

01:21:13 the negative

01:21:15 Stimuli was of course thinking about

01:21:17 How would I feel?

01:21:19 If things went very badly in the world and I had to withheld essential topics

01:21:24 I would feel bad now saying essential topics doesn't mean that the world isn't going to go bad. That's not up to me

01:21:31 but as far as my conscience goes there was negative stimuli which was concerned about regret or

01:21:36 Or guilt or shame or cowardice or something like concern about something negative that would occur to me

01:21:42 and then there was also, you know, the

01:21:45 Relative contentment that comes from reasonable amounts of courage and some pride in taking on difficult topics and so on

01:21:52 So I had my arguments, of course

01:21:54 And I also had my conscience to satisfy

01:21:58 And my integrity to serve

01:22:00 So I had positive incentives of serving integrity and negative incentives to avoid a bad conscience if that makes sense

01:22:07 Yeah

01:22:10 So in that

01:22:12 You I almost hate to say this you and your parents and I and every other person who's not completely insane

01:22:19 A following kind of the same pattern we have our arguments. We have our positive incentives. We have our negative incentives or our disincentives

01:22:27 And we we follow that so your parents

01:22:29 Accepted that human beings have free will because you can't say children have free will but adults don't

01:22:35 Right, you did that that would that would make no sense at all. That's like saying children

01:22:41 Are tall but adults are short like that wouldn't make any sense. And also of course

01:22:46 your father

01:22:48 and your mother

01:22:50 Accepted that they have free will because they didn't say to you don't take this personally. This is just my determinism acting out

01:22:57 right

01:22:59 They they made the choice to make those arguments and and apply those incentives and disincentives and so on

01:23:05 So your parents fully accepted free will

01:23:09 And I don't know what the positive incentives are

01:23:15 Or the disincentives are for bad people. I I that's sort of at the foggy edge of my knowledge

01:23:20 And maybe i'll try and figure it out one day

01:23:23 But I I assume it has something to do with they're happy if they control people

01:23:27 And they're unhappy if they're disobeyed

01:23:30 Because it's about control and bullying and they can't master themselves

01:23:35 So they try to control other people like they don't have any self-control. So they end up trying to control other people

01:23:39 and I assume that they get a thrill of

01:23:41 happiness and relief from negative emotions and so on

01:23:45 If they control someone if they successfully get you to eat your oatmeal

01:23:48 Then there's a positive experience and if they don't then there's a very negative experience

01:23:53 so

01:23:55 That's why they I assume that's why they're doing what they're doing

01:23:58 Now

01:24:01 For you and I the positive

01:24:03 Incentive is integrity or virtue or things like that

01:24:06 And the negative incentive is or the disincentive is

01:24:08 Bad conscience and regrets and all these kinds of things

01:24:12 But for your parents I would assume it's something like

01:24:15 Uh, I want you to do what I I want you to do what I want you to do

01:24:20 So I feel better and if you don't do what I want you to do, I'll feel worse

01:24:24 so i'm going to just put pressure on you until you

01:24:26 Give me what I want and

01:24:29 Make me feel better. It's probably something like that

01:24:32 so

01:24:34 for you and I I think

01:24:36 the

01:24:37 Incentive structure is around self-control

01:24:39 And virtue and for your parents probably the incentive structure is around

01:24:46 dominance and

01:24:50 Avoidance of a feeling of helplessness

01:24:52 If they can't get other people to do what they want

01:24:56 And that's that's very opposite right self-control versus control of others

01:25:00 Virtue versus bullying

01:25:03 Integrity versus subjugation. These are two very opposite things

01:25:09 And so your parents were operating in a free will environment but they had chosen entirely different

01:25:18 Incentive structures and they had chosen those

01:25:20 And the other thing that I would say I assume that your parents

01:25:24 Maybe your dad was but doesn't sound like your mom was your parents weren't so crazy that they would abuse you in front of

01:25:32 security guards

01:25:35 policemen

01:25:36 Teachers authority clergy priests authority figures of any kind that they were able to or fully able to restrain

01:25:42 Their aggressive impulses in the presence of external authority figures. Is that right?

01:25:48 Um, my mom for sure my dad, um

01:25:52 Not in front of and he would in front of other people but not not authority figures

01:25:57 I he would he would keep it in check for authority figures. Yeah

01:26:01 Okay, so whenever he would suffer negative consequences

01:26:04 He was able to keep his temper in check, right?

01:26:07 Okay, so that's good to know that means he wasn't crazy

01:26:12 Yeah, it makes sense wasn't crazy at all

01:26:16 Those crazy people will do all of that stuff regardless of who's around, right?

01:26:20 He had more choice in the matter than he would like to let us think

01:26:24 Well, not more choice here total choice

01:26:28 Yeah here total choice

01:26:31 I mean, it's kind of um to me. It's always kind of funny to to see real bullies

01:26:37 Be sort of groveling submissive people to external authority

01:26:44 I

01:26:46 Mean I remember when my mom called the cops on me and and uh,

01:26:51 She was not screaming at me for for

01:26:53 Defying her and then the cop said something she didn't like and she was all kinds of oh, yes officer

01:26:57 I think you're like, you know, just it was gross, right?

01:27:00 It was gross to see

01:27:02 But almost inevitable, right? So yeah, my mother had the perfect ability to and of course when she was interested in some guy

01:27:07 She'd be all sweetness and light and accommodation and you know all this kind of stuff, right? So

01:27:13 Uh, yeah, my mom

01:27:15 harmed by her childhood. Absolutely

01:27:17 Absolutely

01:27:20 But harmed by your childhood

01:27:22 Should I mean there's no reason it makes you cruel. In fact, there's every reason to believe or that you could

01:27:28 Imagine or or anticipate that somebody being harmed by their childhood would be much more

01:27:34 gentle and

01:27:36 Kind and accommodating because you know exactly how much it hurts, right?

01:27:40 Like a guy who's been tortured doesn't doesn't mean he becomes a torturer

01:27:44 a guy who's been tortured could

01:27:47 Very easily and a lot of them do

01:27:50 Become some internationally renounced boats person for let's never torture people

01:27:55 I mean solzhenitsyn was tortured in in the gulags under stalin

01:28:00 But he didn't become a torturer. He became somebody who wrote the gulag archipelago and

01:28:06 Helped people understand the nature of the brutality and the torture that he was going through

01:28:10 So the harm done to people as children

01:28:16 In no way shape or form takes away their free will or programs them to become evil

01:28:21 And I there's no answer as to why

01:28:26 You and your mother are different. There's no answer because if there was an answer that wouldn't be free will

01:28:35 Otherwise it's just dominoes

01:28:37 I mean, there's an answer as to why a tree falls a tree limb falls in the forest, right?

01:28:41 I mean, there's an answer to that. There's no free will involved. But the moment there's free will there's no answer

01:28:47 Because we're all like why were they the way they were why why why am I so different, right?

01:28:52 There's no answer to that

01:28:55 There's no answer and there never will be

01:28:57 It's a choice

01:29:00 Now, of course we they're

01:29:03 They wanting to control us

01:29:05 programs us

01:29:07 To want the answer as to why they are the way they are because the moment we start

01:29:11 Searching around for the answer as to why they are the way they are

01:29:14 We are taking away their free will does that make sense

01:29:18 Yeah, I mean lots of people went through the war and didn't become my mom

01:29:24 My mom became my mom not because of the war but because of her choice

01:29:32 Now did the war make that choice kind of more difficult or more? Yes, absolutely, but it also made it easier because she knew how much

01:29:39 Suffering hurt for children. So the fact that she chose to re-inflict it is her it's her choice. It's her free will

01:29:44 But of course you look and you say

01:29:48 When your mother doesn't have control over you and now she needs something from you

01:29:52 So she's she's playing a different game now

01:29:56 Right because in the past when she had

01:30:01 power over you

01:30:03 I mean she was kind of a vicious bully, right?

01:30:06 But now that she needs something from you that she cannot enforce through violence

01:30:12 or abuse

01:30:15 Now she's changed her game, right?

01:30:17 She's not screaming at you, right?

01:30:19 She's making pseudo apologies. She's bringing you gifts, right?

01:30:22 Yeah, I miss you. I love you. Yeah. Yeah. She's love bombing you. Of course. Yeah

01:30:30 I mean you've seen this a million times in movies, right?

01:30:32 The bad guy has the gun and he's pouring contempt on the good guy, right?

01:30:38 And then the good guy grabs the gun from the bad guy and what does the bad guy do?

01:30:42 He changes his tune completely

01:30:47 Hey, man, you know, I didn't mean to it was a misunderstanding

01:30:51 Uh, let's work together like whatever it is, right? He'll just he'll just switch it up because he doesn't have the power anymore

01:30:58 Right

01:31:00 But you and I both know deep down I believe and tell me if i'm wrong, I mean I remember like

01:31:05 When I was free of my mom my mom changed, right?

01:31:08 But I thought geez if I ended up a paraplegic under my mom's care it would be right back to square one

01:31:14 Like she's only nicer because she can't bully

01:31:18 Right, I mean the kid who's picking on the smaller kid

01:31:25 And being all kinds of aggressive because the kid's half his size when some other kid twice his size starts picking on him

01:31:30 He's not the same guy, right?

01:31:32 He's totally different, right

01:31:35 So

01:31:38 Sorry, go ahead

01:31:40 My mom was hit by the car and is now like physically needs help

01:31:43 That's when my mom became sweet because she realized she needed

01:31:47 She needed help. She needed something from me for her

01:31:51 Her like survival or whatever

01:31:55 Well, come on and and you you know as a young attractive woman right particularly from your single life

01:32:01 You know

01:32:03 That guys can pretend to be all kinds of sweetness and affection

01:32:06 Until they get the sex they want in which and then they'll just ghost you right that they're all kinds of nice and oh

01:32:11 You know just so lovely and having such a great time and then if they get into your pants, they might just despawn

01:32:16 They might just vaporize, right?

01:32:18 Because they got what they wanted, right

01:32:23 I mean a con man

01:32:25 Who calls you up and is all kinds of happy?

01:32:27 Hey, how you doing? And you know just wanted to check in with you and blah blah blah blah blah

01:32:30 And if you say to him, uh, listen

01:32:32 I've been recording all of our conversations and i've turned it over to the police and they're going to come and arrest you today

01:32:37 He's going to change his demeanor completely right? He's going to scream abuse at you and whatever it is, right?

01:32:41 So your mother is

01:32:45 And and your mother of course knows that as all mothers do that you have a deep deep hunger for her to be nice

01:32:52 And so she's just pushing that button so before she could push the compliance button through aggression

01:32:57 Now she's just pushing

01:32:59 the pity button through niceness

01:33:02 But nothing has changed

01:33:05 Other than she knows what you most desperately need

01:33:09 And she's just pushing those buttons to get what she wants. She's still bullying you

01:33:13 Because it's still all about her needs because you told her exactly what you need and she won't do it, right

01:33:22 I mean you you told her I I need you to go to therapy. I need you to take responsibility. I need you to

01:33:27 I need a real apology. I like and she won't do it, right?

01:33:32 So she's still bullying you she's just she's bullying you with sugar instead of

01:33:42 Screaming

01:33:46 A bribe is another form of bullying

01:33:49 And

01:33:51 Abusive people do this all the time

01:33:54 all the time

01:33:56 I mean, it's sort of a well-known phenomenon about the honeymoon period after violence

01:34:00 In a relationship, right? The man beats up his girlfriend or his wife and then she threatens to leave or go to the cops

01:34:07 He's super sorry. He becomes really nice

01:34:09 He buys her flowers and this goes on for a while and who knows could be days weeks could even be months

01:34:14 And then it happens again, right?

01:34:18 So the only reason he's being nice to her is so she won't leave

01:34:21 And call the cops

01:34:24 He's it's part of the abuse is the being nice

01:34:27 And now of course i'm not saying every instance of being nice is abusive i'm just saying that

01:34:32 In this particular pattern

01:34:35 Nothing has changed from when she was screaming at you as far as I can tell because she's still

01:34:39 Pushing your buttons manipulating you now. She's doing the reward mechanism

01:34:45 But it's a reward mechanism based on

01:34:47 The need that

01:34:52 she implanted in you which is for her to be remotely nice or

01:34:56 Pretend to be thoughtful or something like that. Like that's she kind of baked that need into you

01:35:01 By being cruel and cold and nasty and abusive when you were a kid

01:35:07 So you have a deep hunger for a nice mother and she's like, oh, okay

01:35:10 Well now that i've built this huge deep hunger for a nice mother

01:35:14 I can play this card now that i'm old

01:35:16 You know if if you know someone who's a heroin addict and you dangle heroin in front of them that's kind of abusive, right

01:35:29 Especially if you're the one who turned them into a heroin addict

01:35:32 And say no, no, no i'm giving that person what they want. It's like no

01:35:36 You created an addiction and now you're controlling them by dangling

01:35:42 That addiction right and you know, you grew up without a loving mother

01:35:45 So you have a deep ache and need in your heart for a loving mother and she's like, um, I can play that

01:35:49 Piano all up and down the keyboard

01:35:52 I mean the way that we know

01:35:58 If people are being nice to us is if they ask us what we want and they work their best to try and provide it

01:36:04 I mean, obviously you want what we what you want is perfectly reasonable and moral and right and just

01:36:08 But yeah, that's how we know if people are nice

01:36:11 To us

01:36:13 And she's not doing that

01:36:15 She's just throwing a bunch of fog around she's giving you gifts. She's showing up uninvited

01:36:19 She's not respecting your boundary she's not respecting your requests

01:36:23 It's just another form of bullying in my opinion. I don't want to tell you your experience

01:36:27 But that's how it looks to me. What do you think?

01:36:29 Definitely. That's exactly what it is

01:36:32 And again in my experience

01:36:38 Once people have a certain amount of manipulation under their belt. They have no other tool

01:36:43 Like there's nothing else they can do

01:36:46 You know some some cabbie who's 75 years old is not going to become an astrophysicist and people who spend decades manipulating others particularly helpless children

01:36:57 Under their care custody and control

01:37:01 There's a tipping point where people no longer have other options

01:37:06 And if your mom has spent decades bullying and manipulating then

01:37:10 I would assume at this point in her life like there is no other option. There is no other choice

01:37:15 Sorry, you were gonna say something and I just talked over you. Sorry about that

01:37:18 Oh, no, it was just um

01:37:21 I was just saying that that is exactly what she's doing and it's been making me just really

01:37:25 really angry

01:37:27 But I think that's you know, the healthy anger that I need to feel so

01:37:30 Right, right

01:37:34 um

01:37:35 And is your dad in the picture at all? I mean obviously the show the shadowy background of your mom's actions

01:37:40 but is there anything going on there that's

01:37:42 anything particular

01:37:44 Um, he's tried to call me a couple times like literally maybe like once right around the time I cut him off

01:37:52 Oh, actually, no, he's done a couple other things. He's trying to reach out to my husband's

01:37:56 Parents like he just kind of showed up at their business

01:38:01 um

01:38:03 And just kind of like can you believe?

01:38:05 what

01:38:06 Now my daughter's doing like the past is in the past like kind of thing

01:38:10 Um, he did like a couple things like that

01:38:12 But um, it's been a long time since i've heard like that was more in the beginning

01:38:16 From him. Oh, yes. The past is in the past. That's a nice tautology too, right?

01:38:22 Unless the abusive behavior is still continuing in the present

01:38:25 The other thing of course too is that if your parents say the past is in your past

01:38:29 Then i'm sure when you were a kid, they never referenced any of your own past behavior. Everything was just fresh and new

01:38:34 They never said you always or you never they never referenced anything in the past when you were a kid. Is that right?

01:38:39 Yeah

01:38:43 Of course, right they they would say well you always or you never or i've told you once i've told you a thousand times

01:38:47 or whatever so

01:38:49 Abusive parents are always bringing up

01:38:51 things about

01:38:53 Prior behavior on the part of their child

01:38:55 But then when the child brings up the parents prior behavior that hey man, the past is in the past

01:38:58 It shouldn't have any effect on today

01:39:02 Move on right it's like they never did that when they had the power

01:39:05 So hopefully we've got some clarity with regards to that is there anything else that uh, we could we could touch on uh today

01:39:15 uh

01:39:18 No, honestly, I think

01:39:20 you know, it's given me a lot to chew on especially with

01:39:23 The last call like I like I said that in the beginning like I I have been feeling a lot more hopeful

01:39:29 And i'm feeling um more like the hero of my own story

01:39:32 um, so I appreciate

01:39:35 Appreciate your words and your kindness

01:39:37 Oh, you're absolutely welcome and i'm i'm obviously incredibly sorry about what happened to your

01:39:42 sister, I hope that there's not any part of you that feels that's on you in any way because

01:39:47 Um, that's on your parents and it's of course mostly on the guy

01:39:50 Who who kills her and to some degree on her for choosing to be with and stay with and return back to that?

01:39:56 Uh fellow but i'm incredibly sorry and if you look of course at both of your sisters

01:40:00 um

01:40:03 Where where you this is why I gave you that speech

01:40:05 I mean, even though I didn't know all these details

01:40:07 I think that's why I gave you that speech about your own heroism and and where you've gotten to I mean

01:40:11 it's look at your whole family and and your sisters and

01:40:14 Obviously your parents and I assume that there's a bunch of messes in the extended family as well

01:40:18 And man where you've gotten to I mean, it's it's testament to your own virtue to your husband's integrity

01:40:26 hopefully a little bit to the power of philosophy, but it really is, uh, what a what a hero's journey that is and and

01:40:32 how incredibly lucky your

01:40:34 your daughters are

01:40:35 uh to to that you made these choices and had this journey it really is i'm

01:40:39 I'm, i'm staggered with with admiration for for what you've done

01:40:43 Thank you. And it really is a testament to

01:40:47 um what you're doing in your work too because

01:40:49 Like I said before what really triggered the curiosity in my husband into philosophy was

01:40:55 free domain, so um

01:40:57 We really appreciate it

01:41:00 Well freedom is the domain thing free freedom is domain thing. So, okay. Well, I appreciate that

01:41:04 I I hope that you have a wonderful happy new year. I hope that you get a chance to

01:41:08 Uh get some rest because you know, I I mean those those early days with with one kid was exciting enough with two

01:41:13 I can't even process so I hope that you get some rest and I really do appreciate your time today

01:41:18 Thank you as well

01:41:20 All right. Thanks sister. Take care

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