Las Vegas Insider Podcast Discusses the Latest on Jon Grude vs. the NFL, Raiders Coaching Search, Nick Saban, More
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00:00 Hi everybody, this is Hondo Carpenter from Sports Illustrated's Fan Nation Las Vegas
00:06 Raiders Insider Podcast.
00:07 Good Saturday to you.
00:09 Joined now by our good friend Johnny Schaap, Johnny Guitars, who's with us each and every
00:14 week once a week.
00:15 As you know, he's a very successful journalist and attorney based in Atlanta down in Buckhead
00:21 area.
00:22 And he's joining us now because John Gruden went before the Nevada Supreme Court this
00:29 week and I know what my lame mind is, but I'm up on a hunting trip up in the North
00:37 Country and John's an attorney, so I may, even though I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn
00:41 last night, stayed at a log cabin, I am going to defer all legal expertise to the man, the
00:49 legend, the way of life, Johnny Schaap.
00:51 Johnny, take it away, give us the details.
00:53 Now I want to lay the groundwork.
00:56 John Gruden is coach of the Raiders.
00:59 Emails of his begin to leak.
01:03 It is presented, essentially more will come out if he's not gotten rid of.
01:08 The late Raiders come to a deal, they settle with him, he's out, he sues.
01:12 He uses Mark Davis' attorneys, who we've already talked about before.
01:22 There is fear in the NFL that John Gruden's lawsuit's going to get to discovery.
01:28 The NFL is asking the court to throw it out.
01:31 Johnny, take it away, where are we?
01:33 Sure, well yeah, we should start with where this thing started from.
01:36 And it is ironic because we actually remember exactly where it started.
01:42 I think it was in the night.
01:44 I know that in the evening when I saw the New York Times link drop for the article,
01:51 Hondo and I were in communication nearly immediately.
01:55 We got from there to where John Gruden settles with the Raiders and then files a lawsuit
01:59 against Roger Goodell and the NFL saying, "Hey, you guys were negligent in letting these
02:04 emails out.
02:05 You guys were part of it.
02:06 You torturously interfered with my contract.
02:11 I'm going to take you to court.
02:12 I want trial in front of a jury."
02:15 From that point, the NFL said, "Oh, cowboy, we're going to file a motion to compel you
02:23 to an arbitration because that's what your contract says any dispute like this has to
02:29 go through."
02:30 Now, some of us know arbitration.
02:33 We've heard the word.
02:34 Too many of us are stuck in contracts that have mandatory arbitrations, a cell phone,
02:40 a gym, in the old days, a cable company, et cetera.
02:44 So we're somewhat familiar with that.
02:45 But what that is is an alternative dispute resolution, the way to take a dispute between
02:50 two parties, take it out of the public forum that is court, that is the litigation process,
02:56 and put it in front of a neutral or a third party to decide who wins, who loses, and why.
03:05 So that's how we got here.
03:08 Gruden sues.
03:09 The NFL says, "You have to be in front of an arbitration process."
03:14 We'll talk a little more about what that actually means in a second.
03:18 After that, the NFL has appealed and they said, "Hey, you guys, this decision was wrong.
03:27 We should be forced into arbitration because of this contract, because of the way this
03:34 league has run and is going to run."
03:37 And that's what the hearing was about earlier this week.
03:39 There was a 30-minute oral argument after each party had submitted briefs, which are
03:47 written arguments telling the court, "You should find in our favor, and here's why.
03:53 Here's what the law says.
03:55 Here's what happened in this case.
03:57 Here's how you apply it.
03:58 This is why we win."
03:59 So both sides say that.
04:01 The courts read through them.
04:03 Then they say, "We need an oral argument, probably just for a little bit of the part
04:08 that's in dispute."
04:09 And that's where we got to the 30 minutes earlier this week.
04:15 That's part one.
04:16 Now, you want to get into the nuts and bolts?
04:19 I do.
04:21 The nuts and bolts are tricky.
04:24 The nuts and bolts have to do with the NFL saying, "Hey, John Gruden agreed to the language
04:31 of his contract, and the language of his contract at the very beginning says this falls under
04:38 the Constitution of the NFL.
04:41 The Constitution of the NFL has been around for a long, long time.
04:45 It's in every deal that's done.
04:47 It compels this to be arbitrated, not to go into public court.
04:51 This is an issue bigger than John Gruden.
04:53 It at least affects Brian Flores' suit, and it's going to affect others if there's others
04:57 in the future."
04:58 So the argument for the NFL was really, "Hey, this is really not in any question.
05:05 He's got to arbitrate this case."
05:07 And it sounds to me like he's got a pretty good argument.
05:11 The NFL says, "Hey, John Gruden is what's called a sophisticated party.
05:17 He's been signing NFL contracts since 1990.
05:20 He's 50-some years old.
05:22 He knew what he was doing.
05:23 He was represented by counsel."
05:26 The Gruden side says, "Whoa, he actually wasn't represented by counsel," which is an interesting
05:30 argument to make.
05:32 And they actually say that the timing of his lawsuit was key.
05:40 They say, "John Gruden settled with the Raiders before he filed suit against you.
05:46 So he was not an employee of an NFL team."
05:49 And this does not belong to be underneath that NFL Constitution saying, "You've got
05:56 to go to the arbitration."
05:58 So the really key question and what the NFL is asking is that this suit filed be moved
06:10 into the arbitration like they claim it was supposed to be the whole time.
06:14 John Gruden is saying, "The trial court judge was correct.
06:19 My suit can proceed into the portion of a litigation called discovery when documents
06:26 start to be exchanged, people get deposed, those kind of things that are going into a
06:32 public record.
06:34 That's the rub.
06:35 One guy wants it in public.
06:36 The other says, 'Nope, it's got to be behind closed doors.'
06:39 And then here comes the hook, Ando.
06:40 Here comes the hook.
06:42 The arbitrator for these kind of arbitrations is one, Roger Goodell."
06:48 And you may say to yourself, "That doesn't make a lot of sense.
06:53 Roger Goodell is the guy John Gruden claims did a lot of bad things, and he's going to
06:58 be the guy to decide if Roger Goodell did anything wrong?"
07:03 So that brings up an interesting issue legally that we can break down like this.
07:10 The court's saying, "You may have a point there, but this is the time to make that argument,
07:18 John.
07:19 If John Gruden goes through that arbitration process and feels like he didn't get a fair
07:24 shake because Roger Goodell is calling a decision on what Roger Goodell did, he then and only
07:32 then would be ripe to appeal and ripe to say, 'Hey, this should not have been the case that
07:38 this guy was arbitrating the claim that I made against him.'"
07:43 Hopefully we have not lost most of the audience yet.
07:47 Trying to keep this as simple as I can, and I'm certainly not a professor, but that's
07:51 kind of a summation of where we are right now and how we got here and really what the
07:56 stakes are.
07:57 The stakes are where does this case go from here, into public court or behind closed doors?
08:03 John, I broke a story a couple of years ago when this first came out that if it got to
08:12 discovery, I believed that Roger Goodell would lose his job.
08:19 It's been reported now by other people that they are deathly afraid of this lawsuit.
08:25 The justices, and I'm not an attorney and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last
08:30 night, although I did stay in a log cabin.
08:33 The justices certainly seem to, when I read their arguments, take umbrage with him being
08:41 the arbitrator, talking about Roger Goodell.
08:44 Do you believe, I'm going to ask you two different questions because they're completely different.
08:50 Do you believe as an attorney, obviously you're not in this case, but do you believe as an
08:54 attorney if this gets to discovery, where John Gruden knows where all the bodies are
08:59 buried, whether he lends the case or not, do you think if it gets to discovery, Roger
09:07 Goodell will make it through that and remain the commissioner of the NFL?
09:13 Yeah, I don't want to give a lawyer sounding answer, but it really depends how far into
09:19 discovery they get and how wide.
09:22 So in discovery, we can generally-
09:25 Can I stop you for one second?
09:27 I'm going to tell you what I was told without telling you who told me.
09:31 John does not need, nor does he want any money.
09:36 He wants a pound of flesh.
09:39 So I asked that same question before, well, does the NFL just step up and say, here's
09:45 X millions, go away.
09:48 I was told John would not settle for any money.
09:50 So assuming that he's not willing to settle, do you think it costs Goodell his job?
10:01 If this gets into discovery, that discovery period is probably going to take at least
10:09 a year and it could take more depending on how wide they go.
10:14 Oh, it definitely could.
10:17 We don't know what's behind that door.
10:19 We don't know what's behind that door and what kind of access that we're going to get.
10:22 So let me give you an example.
10:25 Case gets into discovery.
10:27 The plaintiff's side asks for emails.
10:30 They ask for records.
10:31 They ask for all kinds of stuff and almost for everything they ask in this case, they
10:37 should expect a serious pushback for a whole lot of different reasons having to do with
10:41 corporate law, trade secrets, a whole bunch of different stuff, privilege, and there'll
10:47 be back and forth fights in the court again about whether we can get those records, those
10:53 emails, how much can we get from this team?
10:55 Well, that's, that's too far.
10:57 You're fishing too far to ask for that and it's going to get most likely very broad and
11:02 very expensive.
11:04 So one of the first things that comes to my mind is how much cash does John Gruden have
11:09 or does he want to send to fund this suit?
11:13 Because it's likely to get expensive.
11:15 Now it's not necessarily needing to be remarkably expensive and 500 bucks an hour.
11:22 Maybe maybe not, but what we're talking about is potentially a humongous amount of data
11:29 that they could receive from the NFL in discovery and then they've got to go through and or
11:34 pay somebody to go through all of that before knowing if they-
11:38 Let me give you another one.
11:40 I was told and somebody who I believe would know that John doesn't care if he goes bankrupt.
11:50 He's very, very wealthy, so he's not worried about having the money to fight.
11:54 And that's another thing.
11:55 The NFL is not used to fighting people who A, are not interested in the money and B,
12:00 have enough money to fight back.
12:03 So if that's accurate and that's his mindset, it doesn't set up good for the NFL, does it?
12:10 If the thing gets put into discovery, no, it does not set up well.
12:14 And I'm not so sure how, how great it sets up for them, even if it doesn't.
12:18 I understand the concern about Roger Goodell mediating an action against Roger Goodell,
12:25 but practically speaking, the advice that the NFL is going to get in that standpoint,
12:30 if it goes there, and I think that they probably would do is they would not have him be the
12:34 mediator, even though the contract says the commissioner is the mediator, I'm sorry, the
12:41 arbitrator for all of these kinds of issues against teams.
12:44 There's two parts to that.
12:45 One, I'm saying, hey, I wasn't part of the Raiders when I filed suit.
12:49 And two, why are you deciding on yourself?
12:53 What I wonder if we're going to see the court basically suggest is this goes back to arbitration,
13:00 but you've got to have more of a neutral as the arbitrator.
13:03 Now if that happens, the discovery will be shaped in a different way.
13:09 It will be limited in a different way.
13:11 Those typically fall under a pretty consistent pattern of arbitrations in and under what's
13:17 called the federal rules.
13:20 And we would be probably limited to leaks as far as what information would come out
13:26 of those.
13:28 And the ability to penalize information leaked out of those is at a pretty high level because
13:36 there's a really good chance that information shared in that arbitration setting and discovery,
13:42 everyone's going to have a pretty good idea of who had access to what, who opened what.
13:47 So I would not expect a whole bunch of leaks to come out of that.
13:51 But again, as you mentioned, this is not just about John Grudner.
13:55 It doesn't sound like it's about John Grudner's money.
13:58 It's nearly immediately about Brian Flores, who wants the same kind of thing.
14:02 He does not want to be stuck in this arbitration with his incredible allegation against Steven
14:10 Ross and the Miami Dolphins.
14:13 This will go way beyond that for others that have a grievance within the league that we
14:18 absolutely never hear about because they've signed contracts with the NFL constitution
14:23 requiring them to go into closed door arbitrations that we almost never hear anything at all
14:31 about.
14:36 Interesting isn't it?
14:37 It is.
14:38 The interesting thing to me, just looking at it really quickly was, this was only a
14:42 30 minute oral argument.
14:44 That doesn't look great for John Grudner.
14:46 He's got an interesting piece.
14:50 He's got some interesting pieces kind of on his side.
14:52 The timing of the suit, if he had filed while he was still with the Raiders, it's probably
14:57 a different and easier outcome to make.
15:00 That is unique because he's saying, "Oh, this thing does not even apply to me."
15:07 If it does, where he's not as strong as, "I didn't know what it meant.
15:11 I didn't even know that it existed."
15:14 That's an impossible argument to make when you've signed NFL contracts since 1990.
15:18 Sure there was a break there, but that one is very difficult.
15:23 There's a lot at stake here for the league in that gigantic shield that they have.
15:30 This is, if this goes the way of John Gruden and back into public court, there's a huge
15:36 gash in that shield and people are going to be able to see behind it like we probably
15:40 haven't seen before.
15:42 Just think of all, even if you just think of retiree benefits and what medical information
15:48 they had, there's a whole lot of stuff behind that shield we haven't seen before.
15:53 This is a hornet's nest, potentially, a hornet's nest if it gets into discovery for the NFL.
16:00 We don't even know what is behind there.
16:04 Potentially for Roger Goodell, it absolutely could be the end of his career.
16:08 That potential is there.
16:10 Fascinating, John.
16:13 Absolutely fascinating.
16:15 Go ahead.
16:16 One other point because people may wonder, "Well, where did this stuff come from?
16:22 Can they drag the journalist in from the Times and from anybody else that reported on it?"
16:27 Not really.
16:28 No, I don't think that's even on the table.
16:30 Those folks are going to be protected.
16:31 Their sources are going to be protected.
16:34 Don't expect that to occur.
16:38 The timing will be interesting.
16:40 The timing is coming relatively quick.
16:43 These are high, high stakes for the NFL.
16:47 Fascinating times.
16:48 John, I really appreciate you coming on for a second visit.
16:51 I wanted the fans to broach the subject and see how it goes.
16:57 Now, I want to talk about another subject with you.
17:00 I've been reporting since Josh McDaniels was fired and we began to see the impact of AP
17:07 and Champ Kelly that I had spoken to two NFL general managers who told me they thought
17:13 the Raiders could hire Champ and AP without going through the Rooney rule by redoing their
17:23 contract.
17:25 Some media chose to get really personal with it and come after me, saying it wasn't true
17:32 or whatever, they had to go through it.
17:35 But then we see a tweet that came out and it was by Ian Rapoport saying that, let me
17:45 read it to you, sources Gerard Mayo is strong candidate to replace Bill Belichick and if
17:51 he is the choice, the Patriots could simply hire him.
17:56 No need to go through their lengthy hiring process.
18:02 They established a firm contractual succession in a prior contract and communicated to the
18:08 NFL.
18:09 Now, I said all year, two general managers said if they redo the contracts, they waited
18:17 to the end of the year and couldn't.
18:19 But once again, our reporting proven correct.
18:26 Sources matter, folks.
18:28 They matter and information-
18:30 They can't, no they can't.
18:32 They've got to go through the Rooney rule.
18:34 GMs don't know anything.
18:36 They said, redo the con.
18:39 We heard that.
18:40 I mean, obviously, what an incredible week in the sport of pro football, of college football,
18:45 of a guy that's done so well in both, Pete Carroll.
18:49 Pretty quickly after the Belichick news, you heard people say, "Whoa, this is going to
18:54 be quite a ride for the Patriots.
18:56 They got to go through a coaching search.
18:57 They haven't done in 24 years.
18:59 They didn't have the Rooney rule.
19:00 They didn't have to wait until after the divisional playoff round to do all this."
19:06 You saw that reporting early and you saw some work going on, hamster wheels, and then not
19:12 that much longer, you see what is a reliable, reliable report there from Ian Rapoport that
19:18 actually maybe they don't have to do that in New England and maybe they already had
19:24 this guy set up the whole time.
19:27 As you know, way better than I, it's not like Gerard Mayo's name just came up in the last
19:33 couple of days or weeks about being the successor to Bill Belichick.
19:38 We now know there may have been something in writing well before that.
19:43 - Laura, I'm not holding my breath looking for any apologies.
19:47 I'll just keep reporting what I report.
19:49 I don't have to report on other people's reporting.
19:51 Moving along.
19:53 Tomorrow, the podcast is going to be amazing.
19:57 Got a Division I successful coach, current coach, who's been successful, who's very familiar
20:06 with Saban, going to join us.
20:07 We're going to tell some Saban stories and going to look at the job AP has done from
20:13 a successful coach's standpoint.
20:15 Cannot wait for that podcast.
20:17 Now I know you covered Michigan State, but you did not cover them when Saban was there,
20:22 did you?
20:23 - No, I mean, I think my first piece of doing any kind of covering was in '99, back in the
20:28 student radio station.
20:30 So yeah, I got there in '98 when a couple NFL head coaches were on the graduate assistant
20:38 staff and then '99, McDaniels, Adam Gase, a whole bunch of other guys.
20:43 I got there right before Nick Saban and Lonnie Rosen put together what would become The Process.
20:51 And we've seen, and we could talk a whole show about that.
20:55 The impact of it was huge.
20:58 The coming out party of it was really knocking out the best team in college football that
21:03 year.
21:04 Ohio State was the best team in 1998.
21:07 Had there been a playoff-
21:08 - Not even close.
21:09 - Oh, they'd have beat everybody.
21:10 They had one slip up against Michigan State and really, they were ahead to a point where
21:17 you thought the game was over.
21:18 And we're going way back, folks.
21:19 There was a horseshoe.
21:21 They had a track around the field for the young folks that are like, "No way."
21:26 So that was a magical time and an incredible amount of talent, but there's so much talent,
21:33 innovation, nutrition, training table, weightlifting, student support with the Clara Bell Smith
21:39 Center.
21:40 We should talk a whole other time about that show, but yes, my little baby teeth got cut
21:45 in '99 in a year that Michigan State would go finish sixth or seventh, depending on which
21:51 poll you would choose.
21:53 And in kind of the dark of night, almost, in a story sure to be retold again and again
22:00 with different angles over years to come, and Hondo knows probably more than just about
22:06 anybody and more than some people would like him to know about this story.
22:10 Nick Saban goes to LSU right before Thanksgiving and takes the next step in a career that really
22:18 only got better from 1999.
22:21 Really, if you look at it, it only got better from '99.
22:26 I would recommend everyone to go read Nick's book when he got to LSU and how he changed.
22:33 Phenomenal book, phenomenal book.
22:35 Donna, some of our critics say that I look disinterested when I ask you questions and
22:41 everyone needs to know.
22:42 We used to just have it, whoever was talking was on the screen, then people, "No, you need
22:47 to have split screen."
22:49 And so while you're talking, I'm looking at my next notes and my next question, you know
22:53 that I'm not disinterested.
22:55 I want everyone else to know I am not disinterested in John.
22:59 No, folks.
23:00 You can't please everybody because when it was just one person, "No, we need two."
23:06 Now it's, "Oh, you look disinterested."
23:08 I have learned one thing, John, and I'm so glad.
23:11 We're growing so fast, but dear God, critics will pick anything to criticize, won't they?
23:16 They will, and that's okay, but they got to understand we've been doing this since, you
23:20 know, we've been doing this, we did it on the phone for years.
23:22 We've been doing this since 2009.
23:26 It's a long time now.
23:31 The video stuff wasn't as strong in the old days, or we would have done more video.
23:34 If we had this to do now, we would have been doing that then.
23:37 And if we're lucky enough and people keep watching, we hopefully can do this 10 more
23:41 years down the road.
23:42 But no, there's no disinterest.
23:44 There's no intentional interruptions either way.
23:47 We're doing the best we can with the Zoom stuff, and hopefully one day again soon we
23:51 can do them sitting next to each other.
23:54 There'll probably be something to pick out there.
23:56 That's okay.
23:57 I just like the people listening and watching.
24:00 I love to hear what they think, and we enjoy and appreciate their time because we understand,
24:07 like Nick Saban would understand, your time is your currency with this thing.
24:11 Your time is your currency.
24:14 We don't waste a word.
24:15 We don't waste it.
24:17 We work to prepare to talk about this stuff.
24:19 There's actually a little production, although some people might not think so, and we try
24:22 to keep it somewhat entertaining.
24:24 We don't want it to be a Bill Belichick meeting.
24:28 All right.
24:33 I got a surprise for you.
24:34 My wife's doing something.
24:36 Hey, Shannon.
24:37 All right.
24:38 I got a surprise for you, Johnny.
24:41 All right.
24:42 What else do you want?
24:44 Can I talk about?
24:45 Hang on.
24:46 I want to, I got a surprise for you.
24:49 All right.
24:52 I got a surprise.
24:53 Somebody wants to say hi to his Uncle John.
24:55 Who could it be?
24:58 Come here.
25:00 Come see daddy.
25:03 Say hi to Uncle John.
25:06 Hey, young man.
25:08 What's up?
25:09 Wave hi.
25:10 Is he doing?
25:11 I can't tell.
25:12 I don't got my glasses on.
25:13 He's smiling.
25:14 Say hi to Uncle John.
25:15 Come here with this Hawaiian wave.
25:16 Hey, buddy.
25:17 Say hi, Uncle Johnny.
25:18 Good to see you.
25:19 Hey, buddy.
25:20 Say hi, Uncle Johnny.
25:21 Good to see you.
25:22 It's Dexter and it's Wayne Carpenter.
25:23 Give me a kiss.
25:24 Give me a kiss.
25:25 All right.
25:26 We got a lot to do.
25:27 I'm going to send him out to go.
25:28 I tell you what, Dexter.
25:29 We will never forget this meeting because this was one of the all-time historic transition
25:30 weekends in football.
25:31 So we will talk about this when you are older again.
25:32 All right.
25:33 So talk about the next thing.
25:34 Well, I mean, the next thing is, you know, we're going to be talking about the next thing.
25:35 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
25:36 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
25:37 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
25:38 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
25:39 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:02 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:29 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:32 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:33 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:34 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:35 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:36 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:37 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:38 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:39 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:40 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:41 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:42 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:43 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:44 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:45 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:46 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
26:47 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:11 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:39 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:41 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:42 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:43 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:44 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:45 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:46 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:47 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:48 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:49 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:50 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:51 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:52 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:53 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:54 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:55 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
27:56 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:20 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:48 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:50 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:51 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:52 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:53 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:54 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:55 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:56 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:57 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:58 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
28:59 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:00 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:01 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:02 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:03 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:04 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:05 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:29 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:35 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:36 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:37 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:38 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:39 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:40 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:41 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
29:42 We're going to be talking about the next thing.
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