Our latest Las Vegas Raiders Insider Podcast episode examines the change in leadership and direction of the Silver and Black, who are now investors in the NFL Draft and not gamblers anymore.
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00:00Hi everybody, this is Hondo Carpenter, your Las Vegas Raiders beat writer for Sports Illustrated
00:07and the host of the Las Vegas Raiders Insider Podcast.
00:11Very excited for the second time to bring a man on that has started working for me the
00:16first of April.
00:18He graduated from Central Michigan University and we hired him to help us and to be a great
00:23writer for us and now he's covering the Raiders with us, Michael France.
00:28He was on last week with his tremendous research into looking at the NFL teams and over the
00:36last 10 drafts, how many first round picks have they had and how many were in the top
00:4310.
00:44What we learned from his research was that the best 11 teams in the NFL literally had
00:51zero or only one top 10 pick.
00:54We began to really dissect that.
00:56That information came when an NFL executive suggested it.
01:00We gave it to Michael.
01:01He ran with it and did a tremendous job like an old veteran.
01:04That's part of the reason that we hired him is that dogged work ethic and I always tease
01:10him.
01:11I need him to be more like his parents in other areas.
01:14I'm not going to get into those, but I'm going to stay on him.
01:17I'm just busting him this morning, but Michael, good to have you back on the program with
01:22us.
01:23Thanks for joining us, buddy.
01:24Thank you for having me, man.
01:26Happy to be here for the second time in front of Raider Nation.
01:30Last week when we got into the research, we looked at those top 11 teams.
01:36We spent a lot of time looking at the Raiders.
01:38Today, it's going to be a very Raider-centric program, which they all are, sometimes macroly,
01:45sometimes microly.
01:47When you look at what's coming, I said this earlier in the week, talking to an NFL general
01:53manager who once said to me, you can't win games in April, May, June, July, but you can
02:02lose them.
02:04That's very, very telling because the best teams in the NFL are good drafters.
02:11There isn't some teams that you're like, well, they're good in free agency, but they're not
02:15good drafters.
02:18Even with Bill Belichick, who had misses, he was phenomenal in the later rounds.
02:26We're going to get more into that later in the program.
02:29I want to get into something that Al Davis told Bill Parcells, and you wrote about it.
02:35You did a tremendous job with that article, but it was a great piece of advice from Al
02:41Davis that I think is still important today when he told Bill Parcells, avoid the dog pound.
02:48Talk about your research, what you learned, and tell us about that, please, that philosophy
02:52of Al Davis.
02:53Well, it was essentially the exact quote is, and I'm quoting the incredible 30-13 article
02:59I got it from.
03:00It was to Parcells.
03:01What he said is, if you don't have your philosophy in personnel, you don't have your prototypical
03:06values in place on personnel.
03:09Pretty soon, and these were their exact words, your team starts to look like a dog pound.
03:14One of these, one of those, big ones, little ones, ones that bite, ones that don't.
03:21You need to have your philosophy on personnel in place going into the draft, whether it
03:25is what you want in your guys in the locker room, the kind of effort you want to see,
03:31the kind of work ethic.
03:32Are they really football guys?
03:33Are they a Max Crosby, a bleed for this, like football, go, go, go all the time, like an
03:38Antonio Pierce.
03:40And then you got, you know, your, your physical characteristics as well.
03:44And your physical prototypes, the traits in a player you see on the field that you want
03:47and habits.
03:49I remember one time having a discussion with a very successful coach had won Super Bowls
03:56and he was very adamant about what he wanted.
04:02Now I'm going to make this figure up.
04:04So he wants tight ends that are six, five and bigger.
04:09And he told me if it's six, four and a half, I'm not picking them.
04:14I might hit six, four and three quarters because it's a quarter inch.
04:18And I said, no, but what have you missed?
04:20He said, listen, we've learned in our research, we have missed, but we're okay with that because
04:26we also knew before we had the guidelines, we missed a lot more by not staying within
04:33that window.
04:34I think that, I think that's very telling, don't you?
04:38Yeah.
04:39You have to be true to yourself and true to your gut on, on drafting.
04:43We've seen that from the best drafters, they are going to stick to what they want to do.
04:47They will not give an inch or risk anything of what they personally want to take and spend
04:53a pick on and invest in.
04:54And that's why the teams that are risky and maybe the teams that do budge a little bit
04:58more on that half inch in a tight end, hypothetically, they're going to still probably be, chances
05:03are near the top of that, that list we made.
05:06And then the best teams are going to still be at the bottom of that spectrum.
05:10You are too young to remember this, but there's a couple of men I want to talk to you about.
05:14First is Hank Bullock.
05:16He won a Superbowl with Johnny Unitas, and then he was the head coach of the Buffalo
05:20Bills and he invented the draft board.
05:25He was the first team, the Bills weren't to actually have a draft board.
05:29They put all of the prospects on the board.
05:33They raided them.
05:34So when the draft came, they just grabbed the next guy and took them.
05:38And then George Perlis, who was the Michigan State football coach, but he was inventor
05:44of the stud four, three defensive line, the steel curtain that the Steelers ran.
05:51And both men, one time, the three of us, I was very close friends with both of them.
05:56The three of us were having lunch.
05:59By the way, we were having lunch at Dagwood's in East Lansing, but we're having lunch and
06:06we're talking about that.
06:08And Hank Bullock said to me, it's easy to fall in love with guys, but when you've got
06:16your plan where, okay, this is what I want and you don't deviate from it, you avoid a
06:24lot of risk.
06:26George Perlis said that he learned from Chuck Knoll.
06:29When it comes to defensive linemen, I will only take guys like this and look how good
06:33Chuck Knoll was to vote, drafting on the defensive line and the steel curtain.
06:39I think sometimes, Michael, people miss that the good drafting teams, they're risk averse.
06:50Number one, they do more research than anybody else.
06:53But number two is that they're not just risk averse, they're not afraid of missing.
07:03Hey, if this guy fits all the tangibles, I'll take him.
07:07And if this guy doesn't, I won't.
07:09And yep, one out of 10 that didn't may go do something well for everyone else, but nine
07:14of the 10 I pick are going to do well for me.
07:18The best drafters are the ones who eliminate risk the most.
07:23Would you agree with that?
07:25Yeah, you hit it right on the head, especially the last time I was on, you made the analogy
07:30to gambling and investing.
07:32And you have to stay true to yourself and you have to invest on what is going to be
07:36right for your team, no matter maybe who falls to you, no matter what the outside voices
07:41maybe want, the fans want, you got to be true to yourself and what you want the direction
07:45of that team to be.
07:48I had an NFL executive call me this week, Michael, just to wish my family well.
07:53And he and I were talking and he said something that I wanted to bring up with you.
07:59And I was telling him about the Raiders and just how different it started with Dave Ziegler,
08:04but how much different it is with Tom Telesco.
08:07And he made a brilliant observation.
08:10He said, the Raiders in the past were like a guy that wants to retire a millionaire.
08:17So he takes 25 grand to Vegas and gambles.
08:21He goes, 999 out of 1000 of those guys are not going to even keep their 25 grand.
08:30But he goes, then there's the other guys who the 99 out of 999 of 1000 who go to an investment
08:37broker and say, hey, help me invest this.
08:40I want to die a millionaire, or when I retire, I want to be a millionaire.
08:44He said, in the past, the Raiders were the gamblers.
08:47And he says, now I expect them to move up the ladder and become like the better teams
08:52and now be investors.
08:54Is that not a brilliant analogy?
08:57Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty well documented how much Al Davis would sometimes, you know,
09:05the late Al Davis would sometimes run with certain qualities and saw guys and drafting
09:08a little too high.
09:10One that comes to mind was Darius Hayward Bay, who was a guy drafted far too high, seventh
09:15overall as a wide receiver.
09:16And yeah, I think the best teams do become that.
09:20And maybe it just it takes a change of leadership, some of that stability, that coaching, the
09:23pillars you've been talking about on riding with Hondo and Dexter.
09:27But yeah, I think I think things are looking good for the Raiders with Telesco and Pierce's
09:31plan they got in place.
09:33It's really different to me.
09:35I just I'm fascinated at the Raiders approach.
09:40I think they're doing it the absolute right way.
09:43And you know, it's funny.
09:45I've had some of my critics say, well, Hondo's against drafting a quarterback.
09:49I'm not against it at all.
09:51But Tom Telesco has to have it in his thought process.
09:58This is my franchise guy, because if he picks him and he's wrong, there's a good chance
10:06he doesn't get a chance at another GM job and it could cost him his own.
10:10Those are huge risks, aren't they?
10:13Yeah, we've we really harped on it the last few weeks with our you know, what we've been
10:19writing the podcast.
10:21You better be sure about that quarterback or that could really wobble your franchise.
10:25And yeah, the stakes are high for these GMs, especially one as young as Telesco.
10:30And he's obviously had his this is a second opportunity from the Chargers.
10:35And yeah, you can't miss with this first round, especially just in the draft in general.
10:41Let's stay on this theme.
10:43But you know, the personal respect that I hold for Bill Belichick, tremendous man.
10:51I know a lot of people have different opinions of Bill Belichick.
10:56I think if you knew him personally, you'd have a different opinion of him.
10:59But and our good friend Rick Gosling, my mentor, and the man that many people think is the
11:05greatest NFL writer of all time, wrote a tremendous piece at RickGosling.com about the brilliance
11:13of Bill Belichick in the later rounds, break down what makes a good drafter in the later
11:20rounds, because that's where the Raiders have got to get to.
11:23Mike Mayock, very good drafter in the later rounds.
11:25Talk about what made Bill Belichick great, would you?
11:30Yeah, we're looking at we're talking about a guy who he had his prototypes, he had his
11:36intangibles, he knew what they could offer, and he knew the value of those picks.
11:43These picks are picks at the end of the day.
11:45And especially the this, you know, because and Gosling mentions this in the in the article
11:50that sometimes the third, fourth, second round are lost on people how important they are
11:55because, you know, because of the way television set up, they only, you know, the day one of
12:00the draft is like the covered day because that was for the longest time, like the most
12:04interesting day.
12:05But then.
12:07But behind the scenes all along, you have a guy like Bill Belichick who knows the value
12:10of those picks.
12:11Those are just as worthy in second, third, heck, even fourth round picks.
12:16You mean you got to be drafting for the ideal that you can plug and play these guys and
12:20start them?
12:21I mean, look at the Lions with their last few drafts, second, third, fourth round picks
12:24have been hitting.
12:25Yeah, and I mean, I think you can look at several teams with that move hit and you know,
12:33and now you see the Lions on the uptick and that's for teams to make that uptick that
12:39you've got to hit in those later rounds.
12:41All right.
12:42I want to talk to you about another subject that I think is fascinating.
12:47But in your research that you did, we talked about the 11 teams that had zero or only one
12:54top 10 pick in the last 10 years and how those were the primo teams in the National Football
13:02League.
13:03As this develops, let's talk about smoke screens.
13:07You'll see different false flags go up here, different false flags go up here.
13:13To me, I think that's what makes trade season so fun.
13:20But man, what makes it hard as a journalist is hundreds of emails will pour in, hearing
13:25this, hearing this, and you look and see who it is.
13:27You really have to train your ears to hear from the right voices, don't you?
13:34Yeah, I think you mentioned it in a podcast a while back and you hit it right on the head.
13:40Some teams might go to a pro day.
13:42Some teams might not go to a pro day.
13:44Some teams are going to be looking at a certain guy in the combine because they know the media
13:47is watching.
13:48Everyone's going to be looking and maybe you float something out there or leak something
13:52out there and yeah.
13:55It's an interesting time.
13:57All right.
13:58Let's go back to the draft because here come the Raiders now.
14:01It's going to be, to me, this has a feel of a draft that can propel them, a draft that
14:11can really push them.
14:13They were eight and nine last year.
14:14I predicted nine and eight.
14:15I was off by one.
14:18But this seems like a draft.
14:19This is an ascending team.
14:21Michael, you've spent a lot of time researching the Raiders, a lot of time looking at the
14:26Raiders, a lot of time dissecting the Raiders.
14:28It's what you do.
14:29You're very good at it.
14:32If you're Tom Telesco, is there a guy that you sell the farm and move up?
14:38And you got to remember that if you do, somebody's got to be willing to trade and now it began
14:44to come out this week.
14:45What we've been telling everybody for a couple months, Washington, Bears, Patriots, nobody
14:54really wants to move.
14:56They're going to stay there.
14:57If you're Tom Telesco, are you trying to move up?
15:00Are you maybe moving up to a lower number, maybe four through whatever?
15:04Are you trading back?
15:06What is Michael France doing if he's in Tom Telesco's chair?
15:09All right.
15:10And this is influenced by the great analyst and former player, Brian Bollinger.
15:15But I like the idea of just let's just build a team and a foundation and continue on that
15:19path.
15:20We don't really have to take, in my opinion, you know, we got two starting quarterbacks
15:24on the roster.
15:25Let them duke it out.
15:26I know a lot of people have trust in Aiden O'Connell.
15:29I know you do.
15:30I know a lot of smart NFL people do.
15:34Yesterday, you had a great podcast talking about Aiden O'Connell.
15:38I personally, Michael France, if Michael France is GM, I think, wait a minute, wait, let's
15:43just stop you there because you're new.
15:46Everybody knows it's your opinion and everybody knows it's Michael France because I'm the
15:49one that asked you.
15:50So stop the hyperbole.
15:53Let's cut through the verbal salad.
15:56Come on, Tom Telesco.
15:57You're on the clock.
15:59Who are you picking?
16:00Who am I picking?
16:01Well, if it's at 13, if he's there, I like to say Fuego from Oregon State because he's
16:07just he's going to be a guy you can plug in right there to fix that upgrade bolster the
16:11right side of the offensive line.
16:14I also really like Byron Murphy from Texas if he's there, not if not, believe it or not,
16:22I believe in trading back, getting more picks in the second, possibly third rounds and just
16:27building that draft capital and get more get more players that get more potential starters.
16:35So I'm going to get more into what I think next Thursday morning before the draft starts.
16:40And then, of course, we'll have a podcast each night after the draft from Raider headquarters,
16:45breaking everything down.
16:47But I'm going to tell you, if I was looking at.
16:51What they would want.
16:53I think there would be a quarterback that magically dropped.
16:58I don't think they want to move up.
17:00I don't think that's going to happen.
17:02You pick Tolis Fuego, you go plant him on the right side and say you play right tackle
17:08and start to Colton Miller retires.
17:11And then we may just leave you there and go get a left tackle later.
17:14But to me, Fuego.
17:19He's a dude.
17:20Now, that guy is a dog.
17:24You'll appreciate this.
17:26So he gets to Oregon State and he was not a star in the classroom, wasn't dumb at all,
17:32but just didn't really care.
17:36Gets to Oregon State, bam, all A's.
17:40He just he turned up his intensity to another level and football became serious to him.
17:48And then what was really cool is watching him grow up.
17:52Everything became serious to him.
17:54School became serious to him.
17:55All of it.
17:56He is a brutal man.
17:59He plays like an old school Raider.
18:03You can get Tolis Fuego, you hit a home run.
18:07If you can get a Byron Murphy, can you imagine him with Christian Wilkins and Malcolm Coons
18:15and Tyree?
18:16I mean, that guy, again, I think that would be a luxury pick because they've got a lot
18:23of weapons there.
18:25I think I would put Byron below Terrion Arnold from Alabama.
18:31But I think there are going to be so many guys there.
18:34But ideally, ideally, you got a lot of teams reaching on quarterbacks.
18:41It's pushing some good players down.
18:44I think the Raiders tribe trade back to 17 to 25 and pick up an additional second round
18:50pick is what they would love to happen in a perfect scenario.
18:57What are your thoughts on that?
18:59I agree.
19:00I've been seeing mock drafts where certain guys I feel would be maybe first round picks
19:04low.
19:08Late first round picks are falling into the second late second round, especially if you're
19:14looking at a corner.
19:15I mean, this is a good cornerback draft.
19:18I really like Camari Lassiter from Georgia.
19:22Thank you.
19:23He could be out of it.
19:24He could fall out of the second round.
19:25We're talking about a very physical corner.
19:27It's got great instinct.
19:28Melton, the kid from Rutgers.
19:31Yes.
19:32And then obviously, every, you know, that whole team is a bunch of studs.
19:37But Mikey Santistro from Michigan.
19:41He could be a really good corner in this league.
19:44I'm telling you.
19:47So you're going to appreciate this.
19:50I'm on the airplane the other day.
19:52And I am because I travel so much, you know, I have all the Internet and all that stuff.
19:57So I'm able to.
19:58So I am messaging back and forth with a guy.
20:02And he told me that this may be one of the deepest drafts.
20:09He goes, and this is the caveat.
20:12It's not deepest because it's the most talented draft.
20:17He said, although it's very talented draft, he doesn't think it's the most talented, but
20:21he does think it's very talented.
20:23And he said, there's just enough appealing quarterbacks.
20:28That some teams are going to really reach.
20:31And he thinks you're there's going to be first round talent available.
20:36He goes, I could see first round talent available into the early 50s.
20:41Michael, that tells you a lot, doesn't it?
20:46Yeah, I'm looking at my notes right here.
20:49Another guy like and I feel like in other years, he could be, you know, early, second
20:53round, late first round pick is Muhammad Kamara, the edge rusher from Colorado State.
20:57PFF had him graded as the number one edge rusher in in red zone downs and late, late
21:04down, late down snaps past past grade wise.
21:08I'm talking about dude who's violent off the line, got a great first step.
21:12Guys like that.
21:13And I feel like he could fit an Antonio Pierce.
21:15I know that's more of a luxury pick because we are pretty stocked there.
21:19But I love it.
21:20We are.
21:21We wait.
21:22We you're part of the Raiders.
21:23So the Raiders are stocked there.
21:26My bad.
21:28Sports Illustrated, Makai Wingo, defensive tackle for LSU.
21:32I mean, he's very compact offensive tackle, but he's incredibly athletic as a wicked first
21:36step.
21:37Could eat up double teams, too.
21:39That's another that's another guy who the Raiders are stocked up in the front seven.
21:44These guys are guys you can rotate in and just be deep at.
21:49It's going to be fascinating.
21:50I said earlier, as soon as the offseason started, I don't predict it, but I wouldn't be shocked
21:57if the Raiders kept.
22:00Nine or ten defensive linemen.
22:01Now, I still think that that, you know, I'm not saying that's probable, but I think there's
22:09a good shot, you know, 10, maybe 11.
22:13I mean, excuse me.
22:14I think there's a good shot 10 or 11.
22:16Again, I still think that's a very high number, but that would not surprise me the way Antonio
22:22Pierce is committed to that defensive line and putting pressure.
22:26You know, he saw what it did with with the with the G-men.
22:30He saw it.
22:31And it's very fascinating.
22:32OK, last thing I want to get to with you.
22:35Is Gardner Minshew and Aiden O'Connell.
22:40They've got a lot of respect.
22:42They're building a friendship.
22:44To me, when you got guys who can, who will compete fiercely.
22:50But the moment you're off the field, it's not personal.
22:53I mean, Aiden's helping Gardner, Gardner's helping Aiden.
22:58When you've got a, hey, we want to compete and kick your butt, but we're also teammates.
23:03To me, this is ideal for the Raiders.
23:06This is a great situation.
23:08It speaks to the culture of the locker room, the leadership of Antonio Pierce and the integrity
23:14of both young men.
23:15Your thoughts on that?
23:16I agree.
23:17And, you know, you talked about the effort we're seeing from from everyone.
23:22And this is a team that an environment where it's iron sharpens iron.
23:26Let's put pads on pads.
23:27Let's go out and get it.
23:28We're not just going to jog from point A to point B. We're going to sprint.
23:31We're going to try to beat a guy.
23:33But at the same time, it's about the team, the team, the team, the silver and black with
23:37the Raiders.
23:38And that's just a healthy culture for Antonio Pearson.
23:41It's all about getting better.
23:42I mean, that incredible speech he he just gave to kick things off.
23:45You know, he's bringing in all these ex head coaches.
23:48He wants AP.
23:49The head coach is openly admitting, I want to surround myself with guys who make me a
23:54better head coach.
23:55We got to get better everywhere across the board.
23:58And you do if you're going to compete in the NFL, let alone our division, which is just
24:03it's going to get it's going to be a dogfight.
24:07It's going to be very interesting.
24:11I don't know.
24:12And I've been around a long time.
24:15I don't remember a time when I was more excited to watch a complete draft now, purely on a
24:22side note, Pat McAfee.
24:26I really like Pat.
24:28I like him personally as a man.
24:31I think he's great on television with his show.
24:36He's different.
24:37I like different.
24:38I don't like cookie cutter.
24:41And when he announced last week on a show, I don't remember what day it is.
24:44This whole week kind of runs together for me, but I think it was Wednesday that that
24:49Bill Belichick is joining him for a pre draft show and then an entire first round show.
24:56That is I'm going to be in the Raiders building working, but I'm going to tape it because
25:01that is going to be mandatory watching to me for every football fan.
25:06What are your thoughts?
25:07Well, I love it because you just think about the pairing and at least in the media, in
25:13the media's eyes, what the media believes both guys to be right in terms of personality
25:19thoughts, all that.
25:20And then, of course, you are going to have like a guy, a third guy sitting in with like
25:23A.J.
25:24Hawk, which is just a great.
25:25I love.
25:26First of all, I love A.J.
25:27Hawk's chemistry with Pat McAfee.
25:29I think they make a great show together.
25:32McAfee, Pat McAfee, he's a great interviewer, and I just feel I just can't wait for some
25:38of these questions he's going to give the great Bill Belichick and some of the insights
25:42maybe he can dig as just being not just a media personality, but a former he's a football
25:47guy.
25:48McAfee is a football guy and Bill Belichick is a football guy.
25:52And I think that conversation could be really fruitful.
25:54I think fans, journalists, everyone alike can can really get get some good nuggets out
25:59of it.
26:00Now, real quick, and I think this is important, I want to I want to really drill down on this
26:06with you, but.
26:09I am looking forward to Pat asking a typical Pat question, something irrelevant or irreverent
26:17probably is a better word.
26:19And Bill going, no, and just going in a completely different direction, because that won't hurt
26:25Pat's ego.
26:27That is going to be again, I'm going to be working, so I don't really get to watch.
26:32But I got to tell you, if I am somebody who's not working and just watching this draft.
26:38I don't even turn on ESPN or I mean, I mean, I don't even turn on the ESPN main cast.
26:44I don't turn on NFL Network.
26:47I am.
26:48If I do, there's no sound.
26:49I've got my computer up and I'm watching Pat McAfee and Bill Belichick on YouTube.
26:56I agree.
26:57I'll have to catch that eventually, too, because I'll be, you know, keeping my eye on the draft
27:00and pretty much everything the draft that day in the next few days after that.
27:03But it's going to be a really good it's going to be really good viewing.
27:06All right.
27:07He is the great Michael France.
27:09We sure appreciate him, Michael.
27:11I want you to tell everybody, what is your Twitter following?
27:15You're one of our new writers covering the Raiders with us.
27:17I know you also do some college recruiting for SI, but you're one of our new Raider writers
27:22and you're doing a tremendous job.
27:24It's been a great month.
27:25So tell Raider Nation, as you start to earn their trust, you're still the newbie.
27:30But as you start to earn their trust, where do they find you on X, formerly known as Twitter?
27:35All right.
27:36On X, my handle is at Michael, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, France, like the country, S-I, Michael France,
27:45S-I.
27:46On X.
27:47All right.
27:48Check him out, everybody.
27:49We appreciate you.
27:50Stay on the line.
27:51I want to talk to you real quick, Michael.
27:52Remember, everybody, you can follow me on X, formerly known as Twitter, when you go
27:54to at hondocarpenter, on IG at hondosr, and catch all of our stories every single day.
28:00We do 10, minimum, 10 stories a day of content covering your beloved Raiders.
28:06Nobody does more when you go to si.com forward slash NFL forward slash Raiders.
28:12See you tomorrow, everybody.