Head of Religious Affairs and vice president and CEO of the Islamic Council of South Africa, Sheikh Tafier Najjaar | The Manila Times Roundtable
Head of Religious Affairs and vice president and CEO of the Islamic Council of South Africa, Sheikh Tafier Najjaar | The Manila Times Roundtable
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NewsTranscript
00:00 [Music]
00:10 Sheikh Tafir Najjar, welcome to the Manila Times.
00:13 You are with the Islamic Council of South Africa, you came a long way.
00:19 Welcome, sir, to the Manila Times.
00:21 It's only a pleasure to be here and my honor to be here,
00:24 and thank you for welcoming me.
00:26 We were talking earlier, you said you were in a country
00:29 to attend a conference.
00:31 Maybe you can tell us about the event that you came here for?
00:34 Yeah, I think what is...
00:35 Let me start off by saying what we normally do culturally
00:38 within the Islamic concept is Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim
00:42 in the name of the Almighty, the Most Merciful,
00:45 and all blessings to watch Him and His prophets
00:50 from Adam to Prophet Muhammad,
00:53 and everyone that follows them.
00:55 Yes, it's all about the halal that we are coming here for,
01:00 and I think the concept of halal must be understood
01:04 within the concept of that when we speak about halal,
01:09 we speak actually about a service that is provided for people,
01:14 and not necessarily from a Muslim aspect, a monetary aspect.
01:19 It is rather the service that is provided,
01:21 and I think from that particular angle,
01:25 we look at halal as a service because halal
01:28 is not only about the religious side of things,
01:31 it is also looking like we find today people
01:34 are very youth conscious, from a youth point of view also.
01:38 Scientifically, it has been proven that certain things
01:42 that is claimed to be halal is very good to the youth,
01:46 and if we pay through the Quran,
01:48 we will understand that the Almighty speaks in the Quran
01:53 where He makes forbidden anything that is wicked to the body,
01:57 meaning harming the body.
01:59 So we might be eating something that harms the body,
02:03 and that in itself is not halal to eat then.
02:06 I see.
02:07 So you see, it comes from a service,
02:09 and even from a youth point of view,
02:12 this is how we look at halal.
02:14 A lot of people will interpret the Islamic connotation,
02:19 and today we find people see it.
02:22 I come from South Africa, like you have so beautifully said,
02:26 and in that context, I want to mention
02:29 that many non-Muslims prefer halal from a youth aspect.
02:33 You know, it is interesting, since you put it that way.
02:37 It has only been the past century or so
02:42 since we had the Food and Drug Administration,
02:44 but centuries before that, you had halal.
02:48 And what reminded me of it was that
02:51 I have a Filipino friend who is Muslim,
02:53 and we have a problem with halal in the Philippines.
02:56 Yes.
02:57 He was saying that sometimes,
03:03 it impressed me as something strange,
03:06 that because of that problem,
03:08 sometimes he would trust something that is kosher
03:11 rather than what is halal in the Philippines.
03:13 But that reminds me of the point that you were saying,
03:16 that it is not merely religious,
03:19 but it is something that is supposed to be healthy,
03:21 supposed to be sanitary.
03:22 Perfect.
03:23 But how do we get that across people?
03:30 Well, you see, from a scientific point of view,
03:32 and what is so nice here, when I say scientific,
03:35 when we, like on radios and on television shows,
03:39 we promote this by saying
03:41 that your health is very important.
03:44 And Islam tells us we must look after our body
03:47 from a health point of view.
03:48 And it's our duty as Muslims,
03:50 because the Quran speaks,
03:53 "wa-idh kulla lil-malaikat."
03:55 And when we say to the angels,
03:57 "All right, we are going to create on this earth a viceroy."
04:01 Now, if you pay through the Quran,
04:03 the Quran is used "khalifa,"
04:05 which English translation is "viceroy,"
04:07 but it doesn't give you that understanding
04:10 it ought to give you.
04:11 And that viceroy means that you have to serve people
04:16 not the way you feel like,
04:18 but you serve the people what is good for the people.
04:22 And that is where you find that when you serve the people,
04:26 what is good for the people,
04:27 health is one of the priorities,
04:29 because without health, you can't do anything.
04:32 And that is what the halal is all about also.
04:36 So how is it done, say, in South Africa?
04:39 Because I think the problem here in the Philippines
04:41 is that there was some contention about
04:44 whether or not it was a government agency
04:46 that was to certify something as halal
04:49 or something who was more familiar with
04:51 the Islamic concept of halal.
04:54 And as you said, it's much deeper than just,
04:57 really, it's healthy, it's sanitary, it's clean.
05:00 - Exactly. - It's humanitarian, right?
05:03 How is it done?
05:05 What models can we look at maybe just to have
05:11 more people trust the halal seal
05:16 in other countries like the Philippines?
05:18 What are the best practices that we can look at?
05:21 - Yeah, I think it comes back to the educational side of it.
05:25 If people wants to be educated that way,
05:29 because when you educate people, you empower them.
05:33 When you empower them with education,
05:36 automatically you see the benefits of it.
05:40 But if there is ignorance about it,
05:42 then how can I accept it?
05:44 And I come over to say that the unfortunate,
05:49 many years back, it was the understanding,
05:51 this is Islamic concept.
05:53 No.
05:54 - I think the misconception was halal
05:57 was something exclusively for Muslims, which is not.
06:00 - Which is not.
06:01 And it's proven over the years, not by Muslims,
06:04 by scientists.
06:06 So that is how Islam looks at.
06:09 Islam looks at your health.
06:11 And a good example to give you,
06:13 our prophet even taught us how to eat,
06:15 let alone what to eat.
06:17 Where he says to us, "You must eat."
06:21 - Right, right.
06:22 - But when you eat, eat just to keep your backbone up.
06:26 By dividing your stomach into three.
06:30 One for food, one third for food,
06:33 one third for the oxygen, and one third for your water.
06:37 - It's funny how many people don't grasp that
06:40 Islam also covers public health.
06:45 - That's what I'm saying here.
06:46 If you look at that,
06:48 and from that particular angle,
06:50 like I always say, it's our duty as Muslims to share that.
06:55 It's not about to convince you to become or to believe it.
06:59 It's just our educational process.
07:01 Because we are there to respect one another.
07:04 Our religion tells us we must respect one another.
07:07 - As a non-Muslim, I remember a few months ago,
07:11 I was traveling in Europe.
07:12 And being in a new place, you don't know where to eat.
07:16 But it served as a good guide for me
07:19 to see what places were halal.
07:21 I thought, okay, well, this must be a safe place to eat.
07:25 For a non-Muslim, right?
07:26 - Now, if I look at you, what you are saying now,
07:29 and a person like you saying that
07:32 means that you have some education and understanding
07:35 of what halal is all about.
07:36 Now, this is where it comes into it.
07:39 For the rest, we try to educate and uplift
07:43 and let them understand from that particular.
07:45 We don't force it.
07:46 - Sure.
07:46 - You still got the freedom.
07:47 - Sure, sure.
07:48 - And like you find comfort.
07:50 So we want people to feel comfort.
07:53 Because you remind me, when we look to Islam,
07:57 Islam is a religion of peace
07:59 and the religion of service people.
08:01 - Right.
08:01 - Right?
08:02 We must serve people.
08:03 - Yeah.
08:04 - Right?
08:05 We must be there for people.
08:06 Because our religion tells us,
08:08 as you know, we pray five times a day, for example.
08:11 And after every prayer, it is for us to make a prayer.
08:16 To say, our Prophet taught us that.
08:19 Muhammad, may peace be upon him.
08:22 He says, "Allahumma anta salam."
08:24 Oh Allah, oh Almighty, you are peace.
08:28 And from you come peace.
08:30 So let us live in peace.
08:33 That is the model that we adopt.
08:35 And ought to adopt.
08:37 To promote that.
08:39 Irrespective of how we differ with one another.
08:40 - Sure, yeah.
08:42 - Differ we must have.
08:43 But I always believe it's not the difference,
08:45 it is how we respect one another's opinion and difference.
08:48 - You said that, you know, halal is really
08:52 a very big concept.
08:54 And it's not just about the economic benefits.
08:57 But you know, it's undeniable
08:59 that there is a big economic opportunity.
09:01 - Yes.
09:02 - In fact, I think for many in the Philippines,
09:05 who are not familiar with halal and Islam that much,
09:10 you know, this is their entry point
09:14 into maybe getting to know more about halal.
09:18 Because they see that there is an economic opportunity
09:22 as well.
09:23 Was that covered in the conference that you attended?
09:26 - Yes, I think from that particular angle,
09:28 it doesn't harm us to utilize it from economic opportunity.
09:32 Why not?
09:33 And I think that's the way to go for the future.
09:35 Not that I want to say that to promote halal or anything,
09:38 but from an economic point of view.
09:40 - Sure.
09:40 - We speak about approximately between 2.5
09:44 or $3 trillion worth of the industry.
09:48 - Wow.
09:48 - So it's big.
09:49 So any businessman would love to look into it.
09:52 Why not?
09:53 It doesn't prevent us.
09:55 So, you know, it's an estimate that the year 2050,
10:00 right, the majority of the people in Europe will be Muslims.
10:04 So which means the demand is going to be for halal.
10:07 - Also in Europe.
10:08 - Yes.
10:09 So why not take the opportunity?
10:10 - Right.
10:11 - From a business point of view.
10:12 Prepare yourselves now already.
10:14 - Right.
10:15 - And do it, whatever.
10:16 So Islam doesn't prevent us
10:19 from making a business opportunity.
10:21 In fact, encourage us, but do it the right way.
10:23 - Right.
10:24 - How do you think, you know,
10:25 just from your perspective,
10:27 how do you think we can elevate,
10:29 you think the way people perceive halal,
10:32 maybe to a point where we see it at par
10:36 with say an ISO certification
10:39 or something to that effect, right?
10:41 Or maybe FDA approval,
10:42 like a Food and Drug Administration approval.
10:46 You know, you said education is an important
10:51 and this important thing.
10:54 I think you'd probably agree with me,
10:56 there's also some bias, you know,
10:58 I guess from non-Muslims,
10:59 they don't understand what Islam is.
11:02 How do we address that?
11:03 I mean, so that, as you said,
11:05 it's really not just for Muslims,
11:07 it's really for the health and benefit of everyone.
11:11 - I think it comes back to us as people
11:15 in the position that we find ourselves in.
11:17 I give you an example.
11:20 I got a radio program in South Africa every Thursday night.
11:23 - Okay.
11:24 - Non-Muslim, which a government radio station.
11:26 And we try to let people understand this,
11:30 the government give us this opportunity
11:31 to speak about Islam.
11:33 - Okay.
11:34 - And let people understand it.
11:35 So I think I come back to say,
11:37 it is also then the duty of the certifier
11:40 to enlighten the business people also,
11:42 that to say to them,
11:43 this is not about only that it's a stamp like that, no.
11:47 - Yeah, yeah.
11:47 - Right?
11:48 It is something that-
11:49 - Something more, yeah.
11:50 - Yeah, something more than what we want.
11:53 And what we want is to make people healthy,
11:55 to make people aware,
11:56 and in the same time, right?
11:59 Make people aware that Islam is not the religion
12:01 maybe the way you understood it.
12:03 - Right, right, right.
12:04 - And I think that's also a very important aspect
12:06 because somehow the other sometimes,
12:08 what we do find is a misunderstanding of Islam.
12:10 - Sure.
12:11 - Right?
12:12 And I think there's an opportunity for us also
12:15 to speak it from that line.
12:18 And coming back to say that it comes back
12:22 to the understanding like we have said early on,
12:26 it's about education.
12:27 - Right.
12:28 - Because I believe education, like I said,
12:30 is empowerment and it gives you the empowerment
12:33 of understanding.
12:35 And when you have an understanding,
12:37 you incline to differ much better with respect.
12:40 - Yes.
12:41 I think it makes for a better world with understanding.
12:44 - That's exactly what we are under the circumstances.
12:47 - Yeah.
12:47 - We need a better world.
12:48 - Can I rephrase my question a bit?
12:50 - Yes, sure.
12:51 - And maybe try to ask it this way.
12:54 How is, and this may come off as an ignorant question,
12:59 so I apologize at the beginning.
13:00 - No, no problem.
13:01 - It's only out of curiosity, but not out of disrespect.
13:04 - Sure, sure.
13:05 - Is there maybe, for example, you came from South Africa,
13:10 you're familiar with Halal standards,
13:14 others elsewhere in the world.
13:17 When you came here to the Philippines,
13:18 are there any differences in the standards
13:20 of what maybe Filipinos would consider Halal
13:24 as compared to maybe what you would consider as Halal,
13:28 maybe you see in South Africa or maybe in Saudi Arabia
13:32 or something like that?
13:34 Is it the same level of Halal that you encountered here
13:38 as you would in others?
13:40 That's what I mean.
13:41 Maybe when I say that you want to elevate that concept,
13:45 at par with say maybe an ISO certification
13:48 or some other international standard.
13:50 Or is there room for maybe the local experts
13:57 to maybe set standards on what is good enough as Halal
14:02 as opposed to what is ideal Halal?
14:05 - I think what is very important,
14:07 when you find Halal in South Africa,
14:10 you expect it to be the same standard within Manila.
14:13 - Okay.
14:14 - It's one standard.
14:15 - Yes.
14:16 - It's either it's Halal or it's not Halal.
14:16 - Or it's not Halal, okay.
14:18 - Right, there's no in between.
14:20 - Right.
14:20 - Right, and I think from that particular,
14:22 and therefore I feel like you so beautifully said,
14:25 when you went to Europe, you saw Halal
14:27 and you will feel comfortable.
14:28 - Yes, yes.
14:28 - Because it's the same standard that you follow.
14:30 - Yes.
14:31 - There's no such thing that Manila can follow
14:34 a different standard, it's all the same standard.
14:36 Because when something is Halal, it's Halal.
14:38 So I think from that particular angle,
14:39 one feels comfortable.
14:41 - Right.
14:42 - Because you understand that when there is something
14:44 Halal, that is one standard, irrespective of which part
14:48 of the world you find yourself.
14:49 - Right.
14:50 - Right, and I think that in itself, it tells us,
14:53 you know, it's like when I find a Muslim in South Africa
14:57 or a Muslim in Manila or any place out, it's the same.
15:01 Right, Islam is the same.
15:02 - Yeah, yeah.
15:03 - You know, and I think that is where I come in to say
15:08 that from an Islamic perspective is that we believe
15:12 in Islam that wherever that Muslim is, he must,
15:16 he's got a duty, you know, to serve Islam
15:21 in the correct manner.
15:24 In the correct manner, not the way he or she feels like.
15:27 You know, I want to use this, maybe an example,
15:30 just to express myself in a more, what we call
15:34 in a more lighter note.
15:35 - Sure.
15:36 - When you get married, you say, "I do."
15:40 - Okay.
15:41 - And the wife say, "I do."
15:43 - Yes.
15:44 - Right?
15:45 - Okay.
15:45 - To me, that is a contract that you sign,
15:48 a verbal contract.
15:49 Now to us in Islam, we believe that is a contract
15:54 you sign in the heavens that you will look and do
15:57 what the Almighty tells you to do,
15:59 that to look after your wife.
16:01 It's not just words.
16:03 Now the same concept we apply.
16:06 When you have the, to say that is halal,
16:11 it's not something that you have made halal.
16:13 - Right.
16:14 - It's already there.
16:14 You're doing your duty,
16:15 you're carrying out your responsibility.
16:17 - Okay.
16:19 - And I think from that, as like you have said,
16:22 you feel comfortable when you saw it.
16:24 So we as Muslims feel comfortable when we see the halal.
16:26 - Right, right.
16:27 - Right?
16:28 So that individual is doing his duty and responsibility.
16:32 - Right.
16:33 - And if it fails, he's responsible for it.
16:35 He must be answerable for it or she.
16:38 - I see, I see.
16:39 - Right?
16:40 So we can see you look at it at a different level.
16:43 Right?
16:44 So when you're a husband, you're not doing your wife favors.
16:48 You're doing the duty that is placed onto you
16:51 and vice versa.
16:52 - Right, right.
16:53 - Right?
16:53 So maybe it's a bad comparison,
16:56 but like I said, a lighter note,
16:58 but that is what I'm trying to express.
17:00 It's about the duty that you perform.
17:02 - That's very interesting.
17:05 I wonder if you can talk about maybe your work,
17:09 in South Africa and maybe elsewhere,
17:11 in maybe how you engage the private sector.
17:17 Right?
17:18 What maybe, if you can think about maybe some success stories
17:24 where you had the good cooperation
17:26 between the Islamic community
17:29 and convincing a private company to also adapt halal.
17:36 So maybe that would be a very interesting story.
17:41 - Yeah, I think what is, first of all,
17:43 we say you got freedom,
17:47 meaning that if you want to apply for halal,
17:50 it's your choice.
17:51 - Sure, you don't force anyone.
17:52 - We don't force anyone.
17:53 And neither we try to convince anyone.
17:55 - Sure.
17:56 - We give them the comfort to say,
17:58 I want to go halal and why?
18:01 - Right.
18:02 - Now, why do I say why?
18:04 So that we can know that it's not for the wrong reasons,
18:08 but for the right ones.
18:09 Meaning that,
18:11 that, you know, when you say that,
18:16 how can we help you further than that?
18:19 Because remember I said that Islam is a religion of service.
18:21 - Sure.
18:22 - So when you say that to us,
18:24 now how can we help you to serve your aims and your objects?
18:28 Right?
18:29 And I think from that,
18:31 you know, we just mentioned that in the car
18:34 when we came here now to your headquarters here,
18:38 we just mentioned casually also discussing with my colleague
18:42 to say, how is it that we say to the people
18:45 we are here to help you?
18:47 You want to make business?
18:49 How can we help you to make business?
18:51 Right?
18:53 But in the same time--
18:54 - That's a very powerful proposition.
18:56 - But in the same time, we thank you for what?
18:59 For providing a service for people to eat halal.
19:02 I come from a country where we as Muslims are the minority.
19:07 So when a non-Muslim wants to apply for halal,
19:10 for him might be a business,
19:11 but I thank him for providing us with a service
19:15 so that I can have an outlet to go and eat what is halal.
19:19 Exactly what you have said,
19:20 when you went to Europe,
19:21 there was outlets for you to find comfort to go and eat.
19:25 Same concept here.
19:26 And when you speak to them like that,
19:29 by saying we are here to help you
19:31 and thank you for that service,
19:33 they start to thank you.
19:34 Because that is how one has to be approached.
19:38 You remind me of a close colleague of mine,
19:41 he's a non-Muslim.
19:42 He's a professor at one of the universities in South Africa.
19:47 Now, whenever we meet,
19:52 he will always say to me,
19:55 "You know, I look forward always to meet you."
19:58 He tells me that.
19:59 I say, "Why? Am I that unique?
20:01 Why do you miss?"
20:02 I say, "No."
20:04 Because it's the first time that he hears first hand
20:07 from us, what they call a Sheikh's mouth,
20:10 from Islam, how Islam is all about.
20:13 He had a misconception about it.
20:14 I say, "Unfortunately,
20:17 this is what is happening in the world."
20:19 There's a misconception and people jump to conclusions.
20:22 And so much so now,
20:24 that he's just, whenever he wants to eat,
20:27 he looks for halal also.
20:28 Because I've explained to him what is halal.
20:30 Not to convince him, but also same question.
20:33 So he's, being a professor, he did his homework.
20:37 And he went to research and he come back to me
20:41 and he says to me,
20:43 "Is this what Islam speaks to you about?"
20:45 I say, "Yes, Islam is a religion
20:48 that not only looks after your spirit,
20:50 but also your body, everything."
20:52 - Yeah, yeah.
20:53 - And you've got the responsibility as a human being
20:56 to look at, to give it its rights,
20:59 by doing what is right.
21:00 And that's what it is all about.
21:04 So you have this, yes, even on the radio,
21:06 sometimes people will call in and tell you,
21:09 "We never understood it that way, but thank you for that."
21:13 So I think what is important for us to do is,
21:17 again, promote that concept of educating people
21:20 to let them understand better what Islam is all about.
21:23 - Something that's bothered me.
21:24 - Yes.
21:25 - For a long time now.
21:27 I said, when I look at 20th century history,
21:31 particularly when you did go back to, for example,
21:34 I'm a big fan of sports.
21:35 I remember Muhammad Ali, the Vietnam War.
21:39 And in that era, and this goes to what you were saying,
21:42 that Islam is a religion of peace.
21:45 That if you rejected war and violence,
21:51 that many people looked at Islam.
21:56 I remember Muhammad Ali being a conscientious objector.
22:01 - And he refused to go to the army to go and fight.
22:04 - Yes, yes.
22:05 - At that time.
22:06 - Because you believe in peace.
22:06 But fast forward to today, and of course we have problems.
22:11 I think a lot of problems with misconceptions about Islam.
22:16 Perhaps because maybe we see the fundamentalist,
22:19 but in fairness, there are fundamentalists
22:21 in almost all religions.
22:22 - Exactly.
22:23 - Even Catholics.
22:24 - Yes.
22:26 - But how did we get to this point, you think?
22:30 That we sort of went from, in a matter of decades,
22:35 from seeing Islam as the religion that was against war,
22:39 against violence, to now, is it because of the media,
22:44 you think, that maybe we see Islam as now,
22:47 we almost relate it somehow to fundamentalism,
22:50 which is unfair, right?
22:51 Because the fundamentalists do not represent
22:55 the entire religion.
22:56 - That's exactly what it is.
22:57 The unfortunate thing, what I find, is, like you say,
23:02 the call of the extremists, the fundamentalists,
23:05 they seem to have the coverage better than what
23:08 we promote as peaceful people.
23:11 Now this is the unfortunate thing.
23:13 Is it done purposely?
23:14 I don't know.
23:15 We must look at it.
23:16 But give us the opportunity also, the coverage,
23:20 so that we can promote that this is Islam.
23:23 - Sure.
23:24 - Islam is a religion of peace.
23:24 Like you say, Muhammad Ali, for an example.
23:26 - Yes.
23:27 - He refused to go to fight.
23:28 - Yeah.
23:29 - You know, to him, at that time, he was fine,
23:32 and he was jailed for it.
23:33 - Yes.
23:34 - So if you look at that.
23:35 - He lost his title.
23:36 - He lost his title, for that matter.
23:38 And I think that in itself tells us that we,
23:43 do we get the real coverage that we ought to get?
23:47 Because what I find also, which is very important for me,
23:51 is whenever one Muslim does something,
23:54 we say Islamic fundamentalist.
23:56 Don't attach it to Islam, attach it to that person.
23:58 - Right, right, right.
24:00 - Because you never hear when a non-Muslim
24:02 or a Christian of that matter.
24:03 - A Christian fundamentalist.
24:04 - You see what I'm trying to say?
24:06 So an outpour of respect, right?
24:09 Attach it to that, that individual.
24:12 Don't judge Islam through an individual.
24:16 Rather, judge Islam according to his divine revelation.
24:19 And I think that, unfortunately,
24:21 which I find in the media quite often,
24:25 where they attach something to the Islamic fundamentalist,
24:28 where they give the religion, which is unfair.
24:31 I think it's very unfair.
24:33 What about the billions of us?
24:35 - Sure.
24:36 - That promotes peace, that live in peace.
24:38 You know, you speak about that, you know,
24:41 I live in South Africa, like you know,
24:44 and Cape Town, where all my neighbors are non-Muslims.
24:48 But we live in love and harmony.
24:50 And you know, you're reminding me also
24:53 of something that I must mention now.
24:55 That I got a program on the radio,
24:58 like I told you, South Africa.
25:00 There was one gentleman, he follows it,
25:02 without me realizing, without me knowing.
25:04 So he called me one day.
25:06 He said, "I'm a person, Christian,
25:09 "that listens to your program every Thursday.
25:11 "And I'm coming to Cape Town, I'm from Pretoria.
25:14 "I want to come and visit.
25:16 "I want to, I said, you come to my house."
25:18 Right?
25:20 So I brought him to my house.
25:22 And of course, we do what we have to do,
25:26 and it's your guests, you know, you entertain.
25:30 And then, when I finish, he want to thank me so much,
25:35 I said, "Don't thank me."
25:37 He said, "Why?"
25:37 "Because I'm doing my duty towards you.
25:40 "You're my guest.
25:42 "And Islam tells me how I must treat my guests,
25:44 "irrespective of what your religion is.
25:46 "So you got a shock."
25:48 - Okay. - He said, "What?"
25:50 I said, "Yes, that's my duty."
25:51 And you know what happened?
25:54 He phoned me a couple of weeks after that,
25:57 and he was in the church,
25:58 and the priest was preaching anti-Islamic views.
26:01 Right?
26:03 I'm just narrating what he has said.
26:06 So he stood up, he said, "Sorry, sir.
26:08 "Couple of weeks back, I was in the house of a Muslim,
26:11 "and it was a sheikh.
26:12 "And he treated me that no other person
26:16 "in this church has treated me."
26:18 - Right.
26:19 - "So it's not what you are saying."
26:20 - Right.
26:21 - "So what I'm saying here is that
26:23 "the media gets the coverage of that individual,
26:25 "the extremist, is attached to Islam.
26:27 "Here we find a person that has been given the opportunity
26:32 "to see what Islam is,
26:34 "could stand up and say to a person, 'That is not right.'"
26:37 And it comes back to that,
26:41 where unfortunately, we don't get that media coverage.
26:44 - Yeah.
26:46 - Exactly what you are saying,
26:47 and these are the individuals that gets it.
26:49 - Right.
26:50 - And we attach it to Islam.
26:51 Why don't we say that Islamic value system?
26:54 When I do something good as a Muslim,
26:58 for an example, to watch anyone, we don't get that.
27:02 So I think from that particular angle
27:03 is that yes, the media maybe, to a certain extent,
27:08 doesn't give us that coverage
27:10 that Islam is a religion of peace,
27:11 Islam is a religion of love,
27:13 Islam is a religion of caring,
27:14 and Islam is a religion of what is my duty to do,
27:17 not what is my rights was.
27:18 - Right.
27:19 - You know, I always say, when we speak about rights,
27:22 we put the volume 10.
27:23 When we speak about duty, we turn it down to volume two.
27:26 Keep it on volume 10, because that is what our duty is.
27:29 And once we do that in the world,
27:33 I always say that the world is a paradise to be in.
27:36 - Sure.
27:37 How do you think, what can be done, you think,
27:41 to maybe to increase understanding?
27:44 It's good, I mean, you open your house to a friend,
27:49 but we're talking about a world
27:51 that has 7 billion people.
27:53 - Yeah.
27:53 - So how do you think, what can be done
27:58 by maybe to have more dialogue, you think?
28:01 More, I think, you know, that story,
28:04 that beautiful story you said,
28:05 is just a simple, you know, visit.
28:07 - Yeah.
28:08 - You know, turn out to be a mind-opening experience
28:14 for someone who doesn't know your religion.
28:16 - It always, I say always, you know,
28:19 things start at home first.
28:20 - Hmm.
28:21 - First clean in front of your house
28:22 before you start brooding other people's house.
28:24 - Yeah.
28:24 - So, but at the end of the day is,
28:27 I come back to say, yes.
28:30 I look at me for an example that I am at the mosque.
28:33 - Sure.
28:33 - Where every Friday we preach to about
28:36 between 4 and 5,000 people, all right?
28:41 And we welcome non-Muslims to come and attend.
28:43 Come and attend, see what we do.
28:45 - Just to watch him.
28:46 - To come on a Friday, all right?
28:48 Now, as you know, Friday, we go to special prayer.
28:50 - It's a prayer day, yeah.
28:50 - It's a prayer day and we invite them.
28:52 - Yeah.
28:52 - And so many of them comes.
28:54 The other day I had a group from Germany coming
28:56 and they were shocked.
28:57 - Yeah.
28:57 - They were German people
28:59 and they asked me, can we come to the mosque?
29:01 I was welcome.
29:02 So that is basically where I feel
29:04 the interaction is much more effective.
29:07 - Yeah.
29:08 - And of course, the media can be used.
29:10 - Sure.
29:10 - But I think that one-on-one to me,
29:12 it's a very important aspect.
29:14 - Sure.
29:15 - Because now you feel, you can feel free to question
29:17 and to have answers, question and answers.
29:19 - Sure.
29:20 - And I looked at brother for an example,
29:21 how many people that he is now got in touch with
29:25 and say, this is what Islam is all about.
29:28 And I think from that, we got to start somewhere.
29:31 - Sure.
29:31 - Some of the other.
29:32 - Do you feel that maybe the world
29:34 is sort of sliding backwards?
29:36 So do you feel any pressure, for instance,
29:38 about your faith because of what's happening
29:42 in the world right now, particularly,
29:43 you know, in Israel and Palestine?
29:47 There are a lot of terrible things that are going on.
29:50 - Sure.
29:51 - And, you know, when we talk to our Jewish friends,
29:55 they say, of course, they focus on the atrocities
29:58 on October 7th, but, you know, people are,
30:02 remind them that there's also atrocities
30:04 and how they reacted.
30:06 But I think their point was, you know,
30:09 how come, you know, the other side,
30:13 talking about the Palestinians are not talking about
30:15 or condemning or renouncing the violence as well.
30:18 It seems like a very convoluted discourse.
30:22 - Yeah.
30:22 - How do we get out of that?
30:23 - You know, I think what is very important for me,
30:26 it's something which I want to mention
30:29 in this circumstances.
30:30 South Africa found itself in a similar scenario of apartheid.
30:34 - Sure.
30:34 - You all know Nelson Mandela.
30:37 - Sure.
30:37 - Nelson Mandela was in jail for 27 years.
30:41 - Yes.
30:42 - And he was regarded as a terrorist.
30:44 - Yes.
30:45 - Now, why was he regarded as a terrorist?
30:47 - Yes.
30:47 - That is the important aspect we must look at.
30:50 - Right.
30:51 - He was regarded as a terrorist
30:52 because he was asking for his rights.
30:54 And all of us for that matter.
30:56 Anyone that was speaking at that time of the apartheid,
31:00 you were regarded as a terrorist.
31:01 So we must look at that particular concept.
31:05 And afterwards, Nelson Mandela became
31:08 the most beloved person whenever we go.
31:10 You know, I can remember at that time when I travel,
31:12 I say, "Nelson Mandela?"
31:14 Nelson Mandela was more known than South Africa.
31:17 So what we are seeing here is the concept
31:20 that has been promoted.
31:22 At the time, Nelson Mandela was banned.
31:25 The African National Congress was banned.
31:27 It's a terrorist organization.
31:28 - Sure.
31:28 - And afterwards, they became the government of the day
31:31 because people came to realize,
31:33 no, basic things they're asking for.
31:35 So if you look at it from that particular angle,
31:38 one has to visit that.
31:39 And I think the Secretary General of the United Nations
31:43 make a good statement when he said--
31:44 - No, the Dara's, yeah.
31:45 - Yeah, he said something nice.
31:47 This retaliation wasn't in a vacuum.
31:49 The reaction wasn't in a vacuum.
31:51 Something happened.
31:52 - Yes.
31:52 - So one has to look at within that context.
31:55 - My point--
31:56 - Of course we condemn violence.
31:57 - Sure.
31:57 - Of course we condemn to kill innocent civilians.
31:59 - Of course.
32:00 - There's no place in Islam for that.
32:02 - Yes.
32:02 - But however, one has to look at certain things
32:06 within the context.
32:07 - Yeah.
32:07 - And I think from South Africa, coming from South Africa,
32:10 I can understand when I look to the story of
32:13 the Nelson Mandela story.
32:15 - Sure.
32:16 - Right?
32:16 It's a powerful story in the context that we are looking at.
32:19 - It's a powerful story, yeah.
32:20 But I guess the question is, where do we go from here?
32:23 And what role do you think that the Islamic community can play?
32:28 What role can we play as non--
32:29 I mean, we're part of the Christian community.
32:33 Can we play so that maybe--
32:34 It's so difficult because--
32:37 - Yeah, I think the problem that you have here is,
32:40 I think maybe I'm very naive when I say it.
32:46 I think the NGOs should be the governing people of the country.
32:49 - Okay.
32:49 - The NGOs.
32:50 - Okay.
32:50 - And take the politicians a bit away.
32:52 - Okay.
32:53 - You know what I'm trying to say?
32:54 - Yes, yes.
32:54 - So that we can look in the interest of the people.
32:56 - Sure.
32:56 - What is there for the people?
32:58 - Sure.
32:58 - And why do I say that?
33:01 Because I look at the politician, everyone claims to serve us.
33:05 So where did it go wrong?
33:07 - Yeah.
33:07 - Right?
33:08 And I think that in itself, once you do not put the people first,
33:13 right, there is that concept chosen by the people,
33:17 governed by the people, and we are there for the people.
33:20 If you do apply that concept, then what went wrong there?
33:24 - Yeah.
33:25 I wonder if you can educate me a bit about,
33:27 even since you mentioned Nelson Mandela,
33:28 I remember reading his book, "Long Road to Freedom."
33:30 - Yes.
33:31 - A long time ago.
33:32 And in his book, he did consider terrorism as a legitimate means of protest.
33:37 But when he got out, as you said--
33:40 - He stopped it.
33:40 - In a totally different point of view.
33:42 - Yes.
33:43 - You know, does it take a remarkable man like Nelson Mandela to do that?
33:47 Or is it something like common people like us can also--
33:51 - Yeah, I think rather let us do our contribution, each one of us.
33:55 - Yeah.
33:56 - Now, if you look at Nelson Mandela, it was a resistance.
33:59 It wasn't really what we call terrorism, it was resistance.
34:02 - Yes, yes.
34:02 - Because our right was taken away.
34:04 - Right.
34:05 - Now, when you resist, people take you as a terrorist.
34:08 - Right.
34:08 - And I think from that particular angle, I would say, yes,
34:12 you know, you remind me, I made a joke at the time when I said,
34:16 "The world need another Nelson Mandela."
34:20 - Yeah.
34:20 - All right?
34:21 - I think we may need many Nelson Mandela.
34:24 - Yes.
34:24 (laughs)
34:25 Because if I look what Nelson Mandela has done,
34:27 not only to South Africa alone--
34:30 - To the world.
34:30 - To the world.
34:31 - Yes.
34:31 - So I think he's a real example for us that,
34:36 but I come back to say is, let me start with me first.
34:41 Let me start with me first.
34:42 What is it that I can do, rather than what I can take?
34:46 And I think Nelson Mandela come from the school of thought
34:48 to say, "What is it that I must do
34:50 to make this world a better world?"
34:52 And not only South Africa for that matter.
34:54 And I think that in itself, and it's so nice you brought it up
34:58 because being a South African, you can speak from
35:00 that perspective and understanding, a deeper understanding.
35:03 And therefore I say, let us start first.
35:05 And you know what we have now also,
35:07 we call it the Mandela Day.
35:08 - Mm-hmm.
35:09 - One day in a year where everyone must do something
35:14 for the sake of Mandela to remind us what Mandela has done.
35:19 Whatever good you can do, even for an hour.
35:23 Are you going to feed somebody?
35:25 Are you going to supply this?
35:27 Or are you going to help a person for that particular day?
35:31 So Nelson Mandela has left that with us also.
35:34 So in the same time, we can say to the world,
35:37 let us have a Nelson Mandela International Day.
35:40 - Mm-hmm.
35:41 - And I use the term Mandela, an international day
35:45 to see what we can contribute as individuals
35:48 to make this world a better day, a better world.
35:50 And I think that is to me also a very important aspect
35:54 because let us use him, he's an icon.
35:56 - Yes.
35:56 - Let us use him.
35:57 - Yeah.
35:58 - His name for that matter.
35:59 And maybe start there also.
36:00 - He's a very wise man.
36:02 - Yeah.
36:02 - I want to get your reaction on another thing I've read
36:05 some time ago and the book, "Ironic, Wicidal,
36:09 What If There Was No Islam?"
36:10 And the point of the book was that many of the things
36:14 that we see in the world now really can be explained
36:17 because of an anti-colonial surge,
36:21 maybe there's some economic factors to it.
36:24 But the role of religion, particularly Islam,
36:28 was mainly to, I suppose, assign a morality to the cause.
36:34 - Yes.
36:34 - Which was really, at the core, economic or geopolitical,
36:40 but really it wasn't about religion.
36:42 - In every aspect of your life for that matter, it wasn't.
36:45 - Yeah.
36:45 - Yeah, I think what is important for us to understand
36:47 Islam governs your entire life, meaning, when I say governs,
36:51 I mean in every aspect how to live with one another, all right?
36:55 From the economic point of view, how do we do that?
36:59 And also, I think to me personally,
37:02 what is very important is that,
37:05 I call it the man-made geographical boundaries.
37:08 If you look at how the country, the world has been set out,
37:12 who made that boundaries?
37:14 Now, we are human beings, right?
37:18 Between us shouldn't be boundaries.
37:20 I should respect you.
37:22 - Sure.
37:22 - Not because you're from--
37:23 - We need to learn how to live with each other.
37:24 - We have to live, you see what I'm doing?
37:26 - Yes.
37:26 - Now, I think once we promote that concept, all right,
37:30 that our human factor that comes in from every aspect of our life,
37:35 irrespective of where you find yourself,
37:36 then this world would have been a wonderful world.
37:39 - Yeah, let me bring it back to Halal, which is where we started.
37:43 You've been there only a few days, I assume,
37:47 but this is not your first visit to the Philippines.
37:50 I wanted to get your impressions about maybe,
37:53 was it difficult for you to find a place to eat?
37:58 Was it a concern?
37:59 Was there something that you think the Philippines could do more
38:03 to be a more welcoming place for people of Islamic faith?
38:08 - Yeah, I think from that particular angle, yes, to a certain extent,
38:12 the business people in particular, from an eating point of view,
38:16 I think there is room for improvement.
38:19 - Yeah.
38:19 - Right?
38:20 Why do I say that?
38:22 Not because of anything, but from an aspect of,
38:24 I can look at it from coming from Cape Town.
38:26 - Sure.
38:27 - I can go in Cape Town and will find easily Halal.
38:30 - Yeah, yeah.
38:31 - You hear me?
38:31 - Not so easy in the middle of it.
38:33 - Now, that is what I say, the challenging thing is now,
38:36 why do I mention this?
38:37 I'm not mentioning this only from an Islamic perspective,
38:40 I even mention it in the interest of the country for that matter.
38:42 - Sure.
38:42 - From a tourist point of view.
38:44 - Sure.
38:44 - Right?
38:45 You'll find people come to Cape Town, South Africa,
38:48 because from the Middle East,
38:50 because I don't call it Halal friendly,
38:52 I call it there's a lot of places for Halal to eat.
38:55 - Okay.
38:55 - Therefore, they come also there.
38:57 - Yeah.
38:57 - Now, if you have that available in Manila,
39:00 or in Philippine for that matter,
39:02 so you promote the economy of your country.
39:04 - Yeah.
39:05 - It's not about the Halal concept alone.
39:08 - Sure.
39:08 - It's also about that.
39:10 - Sure.
39:10 - And I think that to me is also important
39:13 for the business operations,
39:16 and of course for the government,
39:18 and for the country of Philippine,
39:21 where today tourist is a very lucrative industry.
39:26 Halal promotes it.
39:27 In fact, in Cape Town, we find,
39:30 I'm not speaking about the national government,
39:33 but the regional government,
39:34 promotes it heavily, the Halal,
39:36 and yet is non-Muslim.
39:37 - Right, right.
39:38 - Because they see the tourists.
39:40 What do they say from that angle?
39:42 I'm speaking now from the Cape Town point of view.
39:44 - Sure.
39:45 - For every tourist that comes to South Africa,
39:48 Cape Town, there's one job created.
39:49 And you see how they look at it.
39:53 Now, if they get Muslims coming to South Africa,
39:57 being Halal where they can find it,
39:58 if you have a million coming for the year,
40:01 how many jobs you have created?
40:02 - Yeah, a lot.
40:03 - And I look at it from that particular angle.
40:05 - Yeah.
40:05 - That, look what you give to the country.
40:08 - Yeah.
40:08 - Look what empowerment of labor comes into it.
40:13 So you're not looking at the Halal as a Halal from Islamic,
40:16 but you look at also from an economic point of view,
40:20 from a labor point of view,
40:21 and it can only enhance the country.
40:23 - Yeah.
40:23 - You know, and promote it whereby tomorrow,
40:26 I will say, no, Philippine is good.
40:29 You know, I was speaking, I say,
40:31 I love Philippine because of the people.
40:33 - Thank you.
40:34 - And any country for that matter, it's about the people.
40:36 But you can make it more beloved if it's more accessible.
40:40 - Mm-hmm.
40:40 - And for your goods job also,
40:43 from a labor point of view,
40:44 if there's more Halal places available.
40:46 - Is there a role that government can play,
40:49 or maybe when it comes to Halal certification,
40:52 it has to be purely, you know,
40:55 a community expertise to certify.
40:59 - Yeah, I think you are a good advantage here.
41:02 You have the Islamic Dawah Council of Philippines.
41:04 - Okay.
41:04 - Which plays a major role.
41:06 It's a mother, I call it the king of Halal.
41:08 - Okay.
41:09 - Because being in the World Halal Council,
41:12 that we know one another through the World Halal Council,
41:15 and we see the role the Islamic Dawah Council of Philippines is playing.
41:20 I mean, they can help, they are there for them.
41:22 They are there, how can we promote it?
41:24 How can we help it?
41:25 And so are we to our government.
41:27 I've just mentioned you the--
41:28 - The regional--
41:29 - The regional government.
41:31 They come to us and they promote it,
41:33 and they look how they analyze it already.
41:34 - Right.
41:35 - And I think if the government can do that, right,
41:38 the job creation and all that,
41:40 it can only be a blessing for the country.
41:42 - But in your government, the regional government,
41:44 do they certify or they only--
41:46 - No, no, no.
41:46 - They promote?
41:46 - No, they promote it.
41:48 The advantage that we have is that our government
41:51 has taken a stance we don't interfere with religion.
41:53 - I see, so that's where the separation--
41:55 - For the simple reason is we have so many religion.
41:58 - Yes.
41:58 - All right?
41:59 So if we interfere in the religion,
42:00 we got to interfere with everybody's religion.
42:02 We cannot be, you know?
42:03 - Right, right, right.
42:04 - So from that particular angle,
42:05 our government took that stand as far as that,
42:07 Halal, it belongs to the Muslim,
42:09 the same thing like kosher, kosher belong to the Jews.
42:11 - Right.
42:11 - We're not interfering, but we're promoting it.
42:13 - Right, right.
42:14 - So from that particular angle is they consult with us,
42:17 we interact with them, right?
42:20 And of course, like I said to you,
42:22 once a while they will have what we call Halal exhibitions
42:27 and make people aware of it.
42:29 So we are fortunate in that regard, you know?
42:33 Anything pertaining to Islam, they don't interfere with.
42:36 - Very good.
42:37 Well, Sheikh, it's very, very nice talking to you.
42:41 I hope your visit to the Philippines has been enjoyable.
42:45 It's not been all work.
42:46 - I think, yeah, I must admit,
42:48 I was telling my colleague, Attorney Lanzac,
42:54 that, you know, you have made my problem,
42:57 you made, you interfere in my marriage life
42:59 because my wife has been loves the Philippines so much
43:02 with the kindness they have entertained us yesterday
43:05 and before that.
43:06 So now she said to me,
43:08 now I can understand when you have said
43:10 Philippines is one of the best countries I love
43:12 because the people makes it so.
43:14 So I can tell you, I always enjoy coming to the Philippines.
43:17 - Thank you.
43:18 Despite the, what, how many days did it take you to travel?
43:21 More than 24 hours?
43:22 - You know, they say it's cruel to be beautiful, right?
43:28 So to have enjoyable, you must sacrifice.
43:31 - Okay.
43:31 - So it's a sacrifice.
43:33 I don't think it's so much a sacrifice,
43:35 it's a joy that you are looking forward, right?
43:38 And the pains of that travel, you don't worry about.
43:41 - Well, it's a pleasure talking to you.
43:44 I hope that, you know, you're always welcome
43:46 to come back here when you are in Manila.
43:48 I hope that we're able to somehow help you get the word out
43:55 and maybe educate more people about halal
43:57 and about a number of the Islamic topics
44:00 that we've talked about.
44:00 - Well, I must also take the opportunity to thank Manila
44:03 Times and your good selves for giving me the opportunity.
44:06 Indeed, you know, you let me love Manila more now,
44:10 Philippine much more now.
44:11 - Thank you, sir.
44:12 - For giving us these opportunities
44:13 and I think what is important,
44:15 it's a matter of how can we contribute to make it better?
44:19 That's all, it's our duty, right?
44:22 And I think that in itself
44:23 is my Islamic responsibility and duty.
44:26 How do we can contribute to make it a better world?
44:29 And I thank you once again, Manila Times
44:31 and your good selves for giving me this opportunity.
44:33 - Thank you, sir.
44:34 All right, thanks.
44:35 (upbeat music)
44:38 it's a good day. (upbeat music)
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