Our latest episode of the Las Vegas Raiders Insider is a must-listen as we offer a complete inspection of the Silver and Black.
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00:00 Hi everybody, this is Hondo Carpenter from Sports Illustrated's Fan Nation Las Vegas
00:07 Raiders Insider Podcast.
00:09 It's great to be with you today.
00:10 Merry Christmas to all of you.
00:12 I'm joined by my dear friend, the great Matt Heladick from thespun.com.
00:17 If you are not familiar with the Spun, you should add it to your favorites.
00:22 I love it.
00:23 It's kind of a conglomeration of all things sports, but from more of a pop culture type
00:30 of way, and I'm not really a pop culture guy, but I need to stay up on what's going on.
00:35 It's a great site.
00:37 He's been joining me every week on the radio or on a podcast for a long time.
00:42 We'll just leave it right there, and well over a decade.
00:47 Love him dearly.
00:48 He's become a great friend, and we're always glad to have him on the program.
00:52 The one and only, the great Matt Heladick.
00:53 How are you, Matt?
00:54 I know I'm doing great.
00:55 Looking to talk some ball with you on a short week for the Raiders.
01:00 Real quickly, are you done with your Christmas shopping?
01:02 No, I still got a little bit left to do.
01:05 I'm one of those guys that waits until the last minute.
01:08 Me too.
01:09 Me too.
01:10 All right.
01:11 So Matt, let's get right into this because I think we have a lot to discuss today when
01:15 it comes to the Raiders.
01:18 They lose 3-0 to Minnesota.
01:21 The defense has just played out of its mind.
01:25 It's 11th ranked defense in the National Football League.
01:30 The offense was terrible.
01:33 There's no other way to say it.
01:35 When you're watching DeVito, I always say Danny, and I know it's not DeVito.
01:40 Isn't it Matt DeVito?
01:41 Tommy.
01:42 He actually has an uncle named Danny, though, I was reading.
01:44 But it's Tommy DeVito.
01:46 So when you see Tommy DeVito and Will Levis, both rookies, going out there and altering
01:52 their play and making some plays, I think there's a lot there.
01:57 So let's break this down.
01:59 First of all, the Raiders defense.
02:01 I love having you on each and every week, and I want all of our listeners to know we're
02:05 growing immensely, by the way.
02:07 Let me just take a moment.
02:08 I want to thank our listeners.
02:11 We are growing exponentially, and we offer you massive amounts of content.
02:17 It's all free, and we're growing because of you guys.
02:21 So please continue to subscribe.
02:23 Please continue to share and to follow.
02:27 Thank you for all of that.
02:28 I want you to know without you, we don't have a job, and we're appreciative of you.
02:31 But for everyone, the reason I have you on every week is you're a national journalist
02:36 who covers the NFL, but you do it from a national view in the Big Apple.
02:44 I'm micro.
02:45 I'm here.
02:46 I'm on the ground.
02:47 You're macro.
02:48 You see it like an eagle flying above.
02:50 So I love your perspective.
02:52 Let's start with the Raiders defense.
02:54 I think clearly Patrick Graham, one of the top coordinators in all of the National Football
03:00 League, he is coaching out of his mind.
03:04 He loses his linebackers coach and still continues to play at a high level because AP is with
03:12 the offensive line almost the whole time.
03:15 Your perspective on the Raiders defense and Patrick Graham?
03:19 I think the Raiders defense, and I've said this before, it's been there all year.
03:24 It's been consistent week to week.
03:26 The effort's been there.
03:27 There hasn't been any let down or sort of, you know, it can be very easy when you're
03:37 on a team and your unit is performing markedly better than its counterpart on the team, you
03:45 know, whether it's the offense outperforming the defense or defense in this case outperforming
03:48 the offense.
03:49 It's very easy to kind of have to let down or, you know, to get frustrated and have that
03:54 affect your effort or your play.
03:56 But we haven't seen that from the Raiders despite the offensive struggles at different
04:00 points this year.
04:01 I think that's a testament to Patrick Graham that he's now been able to do this at a couple
04:06 of different stops where his defense has been ahead of the offense.
04:09 He did it in New York.
04:11 Now he's doing it now in Vegas.
04:15 You know, again, this Sunday in particular, you get your usual outstanding game from Max
04:19 Crosby.
04:20 Robert Spallini had a good game.
04:22 You get, you see a sack and a few tackles from the rookie Tyree Wilson, which is encouraging.
04:27 You know, things like that are things you hopefully can build on.
04:32 And it'll be interesting to see if Antonio Pierce gets the head coaching job permanently,
04:40 if he's able to retain Patrick Graham, because I wonder if Patrick Graham will get some more
04:44 coaching interviews, head coaching interviews this offseason, because he got a few of them
04:48 two years ago, three years ago, I forget which offseason it was with the Giants.
04:54 I think he's deserving of them again this time now.
04:57 Well, and that segues right into our next question, which is Patrick Graham.
05:02 I mean, clearly this guy, I wrote when he came here that the Raiders were very fortunate
05:08 to get him.
05:09 This is a guy that has a lot of head coaching potential.
05:12 I think the job of what he's done here and has clearly again, thrust him into the conversation
05:20 to the point where if the Raiders don't go with AP, I think he's a viable candidate to
05:29 get the head coaching job here.
05:32 That's Hondo's opinion.
05:33 I've not heard that yet from inside the building.
05:36 That's my opinion, but I'd like to know what you think.
05:39 It's interesting.
05:40 I always wonder, and again, this is me without having that knowledge of the workings of the
05:45 building.
05:46 I always wonder if something like that happens, if you get some players who might be a little
05:51 bit confused or disappointed that they went past the guy who has been leading the team,
05:57 even if it is on an interim basis to hire the assistant.
06:00 Not saying they don't love Patrick Graham or they're not happy working with him, but
06:05 it is an interesting thing to consider.
06:08 I'll say this, at the end of the year, if they say, "We're going to conduct interviews
06:14 and they're going to interview multiple guys," I think he's definitely worthy of an interview
06:19 for the head coaching job with the Raiders.
06:22 I think he will probably find himself getting some calls from around the league as well.
06:32 If he is not retained as the D coordinator by Vegas, I wouldn't expect him to be out
06:39 of work long.
06:40 I think there will be numerous staffs looking to hire him, either in a coordinator role
06:44 or in some type of position coach role, which he's overqualified for at this point.
06:50 He's a guy who's really made a name for himself around the league in the last few years.
06:55 Again, I'm going to say this, if Mark Davis goes away from Antonio Pierce, I'm not saying
07:04 that I think he's going to get the job.
07:06 I think it would be very difficult for Mark to go away from Antonio and hire Patrick.
07:14 But I'm just saying, I think he has performed at such a level, he's certainly worthy if
07:20 you're not going to go with AP for an interview.
07:23 I would certainly interview him and consider him, but I think it would be too difficult.
07:30 Just knowing the dynamics, again, this is all Hondo's opinion.
07:34 Before when I gave a list of coaches, that was all what I was hearing, either from the
07:41 building or around the league.
07:43 This is what I'm hearing.
07:45 This is just purely Hondo opinion.
07:47 I want to go to Max Crosby, because we all know how injured he was, 60% against the Chief,
07:55 probably 70% to 75% against Minnesota, and he just continues to play.
08:02 There is a school of thought that says, "Listen, this season is over.
08:08 Let's bench him."
08:11 I'm going to tell you why I don't agree with that, and then I want to know what you think.
08:16 My opinion is this, AP has an agreement with Max who wants to play.
08:26 If you're in too much pain, you got to tell me.
08:31 If the doctors told AP him continuing to play is hurting his future, he wouldn't be playing.
08:38 Now it's just a matter of how much pain can he deal with.
08:42 If it's not something that's going to do extended damage, and you have a guy that wants to play,
08:48 I think you have to let him play, because it sends a message to the team.
08:54 It sends a message about him.
08:56 Again, since no damage is being done, and Max is smart enough, if Max couldn't handle
09:03 it or Max felt like there was more damage being done, he would shut it down.
09:08 Your doctors have told you you're not doing more damage.
09:11 I have no issue, but I certainly understand people's train of thought.
09:15 What's your thought on that?
09:16 I understand where they're coming from, because they're saying, "Hey, this guy is your best
09:21 player.
09:22 He's a franchise building block.
09:23 You don't want to see him do more extensive damage or something more permanent at this
09:29 point."
09:30 However, I look at it two ways, too.
09:33 The season, you're not eliminated from the playoffs yet.
09:38 As long as there's still a mathematical chance, guys are going to keep fighting, especially
09:44 guys who want to play at all costs, like Max Crosby, number one.
09:48 Number two, assuming you miss the playoffs, you're about to get a seven, eight-month break.
09:58 Well, six to seven months of training camp, eight months until regular season games.
10:04 That's a lot of time to recuperate and get yourself ready to go for the following season.
10:13 I just think that, listen, he's still going out there.
10:15 He's still playing as hard as he always plays.
10:18 He only knows one speed.
10:21 He's still productive.
10:23 I have no problem with it.
10:24 I understand where fans are coming from, because there's been times I've said it myself, "Just
10:29 rest him.
10:30 What does it matter?
10:31 You're not going anywhere this year.
10:34 It's safer."
10:35 But it's also tough, I think, to turn that competitiveness on and off.
10:43 "Okay, we're eliminated.
10:45 Oh, we've still got a chance.
10:49 Because if you sat him for the next two weeks and the Raiders win two games, and they're
10:58 a game out of the playoffs with two games left, something like that, and then you bring
11:01 him back, how do you rationalize that to the team and rationalize it to the fans?"
11:09 No, I think you've got to let him ride it out for as long as he wants to play, as long
11:14 as, like you said, he's not a danger to himself or he's not in imminent danger of getting
11:20 seriously hurt.
11:23 I've known Max going back to when he was at Eastern Michigan, as you know.
11:29 One of the things that I love about him, and I've said this so many times, work ethic of
11:35 a Kobe, a Michael, an Irvin.
11:38 He's just got that work ethic.
11:40 He is a unicorn.
11:42 He is not a normal player.
11:44 What I say by that is there are a lot of guys who are not committed.
11:49 Bobby Knight once said this to me, and I thought it was brilliant.
11:53 We were talking about winners and picking winners and recruiting.
11:56 He said, "I don't want a guy with the will to win.
11:59 I want a guy with the will to prepare to win."
12:04 That is Max Crosby.
12:06 Bobby Knight would love Max Crosby.
12:08 Anybody would love Max because of that.
12:12 I remember when he got money, people were like, "Oh, he didn't come from a wealthy family.
12:18 Didn't come from poverty, but didn't come from a wealthy family.
12:21 Money's going to change him."
12:22 I said, "No, you don't know Max.
12:25 It doesn't change him.
12:27 He's not built that way."
12:29 He was raised in a family where you go out every day, you bust your rump, you work your
12:34 tail off, and he's a great testimony to his family, really to the world about work ethic.
12:42 To me, those guys are unicorns.
12:45 Man, when you have one, they are so immensely valuable.
12:50 You have to guard them and protect them with your life.
12:54 You said something, and again, we got a lot to talk about.
12:57 This is the next point, but you segued into it.
13:01 There is some in the fan base, and I understand this, by the way, and you'll understand why
13:06 I feel this way in a minute when we get to the offense, who say, "Listen, shut Max down.
13:13 Shut everybody down who's even remotely hurt.
13:17 We'll take the better draft pick and keep moving."
13:20 I'm going to tell you why I hate that.
13:24 I got this from a guy who was on a team that did this.
13:31 I hate it because once you turn the switch off as an organization and say to your guys,
13:38 "All right, we're not going to play our hardest.
13:41 We're not going to play our best.
13:44 There can come some rewards from losing."
13:49 To me, I understand why fans want to do it, but once you flip that switch off in an organization,
13:58 you now tell the players, "Okay, down the road, whenever it benefits you over the team,
14:05 shut it down."
14:07 This is the Raiders whose motto is just win.
14:10 If you do anything other than just maximum effort to win, I think you're discrediting
14:16 your franchise.
14:17 I think you're discrediting your fan base.
14:20 I think you're discrediting the game of football.
14:24 I again have a friend that was in an organization that did that and said to me, "It destroyed
14:32 us.
14:33 It was something that took a long time.
14:36 In fact, this team, in my opinion, has not gotten it back."
14:41 I'll tell you, Affair, who I'm talking about.
14:42 I think you know, but I'll tell you, Affair.
14:45 To me, I think while I understand a fan perspective and I respect them, I also know the residual
14:54 damage of what can happen when an organization does that.
14:58 Agree or disagree?
14:59 I agree fully.
15:00 I think I like to liken things to what's going on around the NFL and other places too,
15:06 especially if I can draw back to what I know well out here in New York.
15:10 You look at what has happened with the Giants starting two and eight.
15:15 When you start two and eight and you're playing as poorly as they were, you can really start
15:19 to think, "Okay, maybe we're going to get a top two or three pick.
15:22 We're going to have a chance in the next franchise quarter."
15:24 I get why fans are dreaming of that because even I myself was saying, "Wow, they really
15:29 might have a shot at this."
15:30 But here's the thing.
15:33 You can't then tell the kids, the men, to go out there and give less than 100%.
15:41 They've won three games in a row with Tommy DeVito.
15:43 Tommy DeVito's having the time of his life.
15:45 This is an opportunity he never thought he'd get.
15:48 He may never get again.
15:50 So how do you tell a guy like that, "Don't go out there and play your tail off and give
15:56 everything and see what happens?"
15:59 I agree with that.
16:00 Turning it on and off is impossible.
16:02 Now listen, last week of the season your team is six and ten, seven and nine, you're eliminated.
16:08 You want to arrest some guys and give some younger players a chance to play a full game.
16:14 Let's just say for example Max Crosby, he might not even want to do this, but hey, we're
16:22 going to let Sid you today or we're going to significantly cut back a little bit on
16:26 your reps.
16:27 We're going to give Tyree Wilson and some younger players more time.
16:30 We're going to maybe start a different guy, two in the secondary, see how they do.
16:35 Totally different for evaluation purposes.
16:37 It's one game.
16:40 At that point it doesn't matter.
16:41 You're eliminated.
16:43 But with a month left in the season, six weeks left, things like that, it's really hard.
16:50 It's tough to say because again, here's the thing, the Raiders aren't eliminated from
16:56 the playoffs yet.
16:58 The Giants are only one game out of the last spot in the NRC.
17:02 Now do I think either team makes the playoffs?
17:04 No I don't.
17:06 But they're still technically alive with four weeks left.
17:09 If you had just totally tanked or written it off, how do you now go back and say, "Well
17:17 now the game's counted again, now they matter."
17:20 You can't do it.
17:21 Totally.
17:22 No, I'm in total agreement with you.
17:25 That's exactly where my thought process was.
17:27 All right, so now let's go to the special teams.
17:31 AJ Cole is phenomenal.
17:34 I think he has emerged as the best punter in the game.
17:37 I think Daniel Carlson is the best kicker in the game.
17:41 Jacob Bobbenmoyer has been terrific, who the Raiders signed.
17:46 I think the Raiders special teams may be the best collectively, meaning kicking and punting,
17:53 in the National Football League.
17:54 Your thoughts on the Raiders special teams?
17:57 Well I think it's been rock solid all year and I think it's been something that's been
18:01 a strength of theirs going back a couple of years when Rich Pisaccia was running the special
18:06 teams, then he became the interim head coach.
18:09 When you can rely on that consistency at punter and kicker, especially when your team isn't
18:15 scoring a lot of points because you know this field goal may mean a lot.
18:21 We got to get it.
18:22 Or our offense isn't really working, we got to play a field position game, we have to
18:26 be able to flip the field with an AJ Cole and you can count on that.
18:30 It makes a big difference.
18:32 I think that was a major reason why obviously they didn't score on Sunday, but that ability
18:39 to flip the field and play field position was a reason why they were still in that game
18:44 and it was nothing, nothing late in the fourth quarter even though they couldn't get the
18:47 offense going.
18:48 All right, now let's turn to the offense.
18:51 We're going to start right with the elephant in the room, Aiden O'Connell.
18:55 I have seen some things from Aiden, some, that tell me he can be a QB1.
19:04 I have seen more that tells me that's questionable.
19:08 I think he's a rookie so you don't throw it away.
19:12 You know this, as long as you've known me, I've always talked about I like a quarterback
19:15 that has some mobility.
19:19 Patrick Mahomes, as much as Raider fan hates to hear it, is the best in the league because
19:23 he is a terrific runner who has the discipline to stay in the pocket.
19:29 That being said, I think the Raiders are clearly in a QB market.
19:35 I think they need to go get as few as one.
19:40 I would be bringing in two new quarterbacks next year, but some would even say three and
19:46 move on from Aiden because there's no mobility.
19:48 I'm not there yet.
19:49 I don't think you throw them away yet.
19:52 But when you look at DeVito, when you look at Levis, you know, the improvisation, when
20:00 you look at some of it, Aiden O'Connell has four games to show some it.
20:06 He has not shown that yet, the ability to put a team on his shoulders.
20:10 Now I know we give coaches 20 games, and I'm going to get to that in a minute by the way,
20:18 but you still got to give.
20:21 They haven't made the decision.
20:22 He's the guy.
20:23 So my point is I have not seen enough, but he has got to do better going down the field.
20:33 He's got to be much better with his pocket awareness and moving and getting out of stuff.
20:39 He's almost too robotic.
20:41 To me, that rests on him, but also the offensive coaches around him.
20:45 Your thoughts on Aiden O'Connell?
20:49 One thing I do want to be fair about is if you look at he's had six starts and five since
20:53 he's been named the starting quarterback.
20:57 The five since he's been named the starting quarterback, he's gone against five D coordinators
21:04 that have been around the block, Wink Martindale, Jeff Ulbricht, Steve Spagnuolo, Vic Fangio,
21:13 and Brian Flores the other day.
21:14 So these are guys that have a load of experience.
21:17 Some of them have head coaching experience.
21:19 They've all coordinated multiple defenses in the NFL.
21:27 They have a lot of years of experience as a defensive play caller under their belts.
21:32 They're going to challenge a young quarterback.
21:35 Brian Flores is going to butch it.
21:37 Wink Martindale is going to have a lot of different schemes for you.
21:40 Jeff Ulbricht with the Jets, they have one of the best defenses in the league.
21:43 That defense has come to play every week, even if the offense hasn't.
21:48 And you're seeing Fangio.
21:49 Fangio, yeah, of course, and Steve Spagnuolo, another guy who can make life really tough
21:55 for an opposing quarterback.
21:57 So he's been exposed to a lot and he's been challenged a lot in the last five weeks.
22:02 And that can only help him later on down the road, whether he's a starter for the Raiders
22:07 or elsewhere, or whether he's a backup for the Raiders or elsewhere.
22:11 Now, to me, I think at the very least, he's shown that he can be a capable backup on a
22:17 cheap rookie deal for a couple more years.
22:20 Now the question is, okay, if that's what you think he's going to be, who is your starter?
22:28 Because I know you obviously talked about the financial commitment to Jimmy Garoppolo,
22:31 but Jimmy Garoppolo was not good this year when he played.
22:35 He didn't look like the competent player that he was for his time in San Francisco.
22:42 Do you go out, or depending on how this season ends and where you're drafting, do you look
22:47 to go and get another quarterback in the draft?
22:51 It'll be very interesting.
22:52 A lot is going to be determined by who becomes the head coach, who becomes the general manager.
22:57 To me, I think Abel Connell has at least proven that he can be a capable backup in this league.
23:03 I think he has four more games this year to put some different things on tape and give
23:08 the next staff, whoever it is, a chance to evaluate and see what he has moving forward.
23:15 Because I agree with what you said.
23:17 It's a lot tougher for these days in the NFL to be a pure pocket passer.
23:23 For decades, that was the archetype in the NFL.
23:27 That's what you wanted.
23:28 You wanted a guy that was going to sit in the pocket and be that kind of player.
23:33 You obviously have to still be able to win from the pocket.
23:35 That's the most important part of playing quarterback still.
23:38 But you need that mobility.
23:42 You need the ability, at the very least, to extend plays or save yourself from sacks and
23:48 make something out of nothing occasionally.
23:51 So if he can at least improve a little bit in that area, it will be a big step in a good
23:57 direction for him.
23:59 Totally agree with you.
24:00 Now let's talk about Jimmy Garoppolo.
24:02 I would have played him Sunday, sometime in the third quarter.
24:08 I have said, and I don't back down from it, you know I don't do revisionist history, that
24:15 he was terrible in the Josh McDaniel system.
24:19 But everybody was.
24:21 I still doesn't mean that I think he's a bad quarterback.
24:25 It certainly doesn't mean that I think, I mean, the guy's resume speaks for itself.
24:29 His biggest issue was not ability, it was availability.
24:36 So I think if you're allowing everyone else to improve since Josh McDaniel's left, you've
24:40 got to, it is fair assumption that Jimmy is going to be better.
24:46 As long as they're still in the hunt, do you play him?
24:53 With this caveat.
24:56 There's about 11 million bucks that they're going to be able to get out of next year.
25:03 And I'm not going to get into all the semantics how, because it's so long and we're not getting
25:06 into that today.
25:08 But if he gets injured like Derek Carr last year, they're not going to be able to get
25:12 rid of him and that money is going to be guaranteed.
25:15 If you know, no matter what, if the owner has come down and said, listen, no matter
25:18 what Jimmy's out next year, do you roll the dice and play Jimmy because you're still in
25:26 the playoff hunt?
25:28 Or do you say, no, we're not, we're going to roll with the kid because I don't want
25:32 to guarantee that money.
25:34 That's a very difficult question.
25:39 That is a very, very difficult question.
25:43 What are your thoughts?
25:44 I would have played him in the third quarter.
25:51 I would probably play him this week, knowing that money's guaranteed because I don't think
25:57 you can send a message to your team that we're quitting.
26:00 But what's your thought process?
26:05 To me, I think I would try to roll.
26:09 I get it, we're saying it's a fine line with we're still competing.
26:14 You know, we're out of it, things like that.
26:17 I would roll with Aiden O'Connell this week on a short week.
26:21 I think that it's a game that the Raiders defense potentially could carry them in.
26:27 It's a game I was predicting it win before this past Sunday and then Justin Herbert gets
26:33 hurt so he's not going to play, it looks like.
26:36 So I would roll with Aiden O'Connell just because I think they need to get him as many
26:42 reps as possible.
26:44 Now I will say this, if a kid is really struggling during a game, I mean to the point where it
26:54 looks like you almost have to do him a favor to get him out, then I can see going back
26:59 to Jimmy.
27:00 It's happened before.
27:02 And here's my thought process.
27:09 I would start Aiden this week, but if it doesn't look like there's improvement, I'm pulling
27:16 the trigger because you've been going with Jimmy.
27:20 To me, he's still a viable option if it were my team.
27:24 No, it's not.
27:25 Mark Davis can do whatever he wants.
27:27 But to me, I think he's got to be a viable option if Aiden still struggles.
27:31 I agree.
27:32 I think you start Aiden, but if the struggles continue, it's a short hook.
27:35 I mean, you got one quarter, maybe a quarter and a half and bam, we're going to go with
27:39 Jimmy if there's just no production.
27:42 At least that's my opinion.
27:44 All right, let's talk about Bo Hardegre, the offensive coordinator.
27:50 There are a lot of things he was limited with, but there are a lot of things that sit squarely
27:56 on him.
27:57 I know he's a rookie OC.
28:00 I know.
28:02 Some of my critics are like, "Well, Hondo, you idiot.
28:05 You say you give coaches 20 games."
28:07 Okay.
28:08 Not in terms.
28:12 I have not seen enough from Bo Hardegre to say he can't at one point in his career be
28:17 an NFL OC.
28:19 Not seen enough.
28:20 In fact, I've seen a lot that makes me think he can.
28:23 I don't think he is right now.
28:26 He certainly has four games to evolve, improve that, but as of right now, if I'm AP thinking
28:34 about getting the job, do I think about going with a Scott Turner who's on the staff, letting
28:39 him make some offensive play calling?
28:42 But I'm probably thinking, "Okay, down the road, if I get the job, I better have a name
28:46 in mind in case I interview with the owner.
28:49 This is a guy I want to bring in for my offensive coordinator."
28:53 But I have not seen enough from Bo to say he's the OC moving forward at all.
28:58 Have you?
28:59 No.
29:00 And I think that, to be fair to him, I think when the Raiders go into this offseason, there's
29:08 got to be a deep dive done as to what happened offensively this year for the most part.
29:15 What went wrong?
29:16 Because, okay, the first eight games were Josh McDaniels, but they're still not getting
29:23 the offensive production that you would think you could get out of a unit that, yes, has
29:29 a rookie quarterback, but you still have Devontae Adams, you have Andre Renfro, Jacoby Myers,
29:33 Josh Jacobs, Mayer, a couple of tight ends.
29:37 Why have they still really struggled to get launched and get off the ground there?
29:44 Is it the type of system?
29:46 Are they, you know, is it the way the players are being utilized?
29:54 Is it on the quarterback?
29:56 Is it on the line in the quarterback?
29:58 Is it on some of the skilled players themselves?
30:02 There will need to be some type of deep dive because here's the thing.
30:05 Again, now listen, unless the next four games the Raiders have an offensive explosion, something
30:10 like that, if things continue the way that they've been going, if I'm Mark Davis, I think
30:18 one of the first questions, if not the first question I ask Antonio Pierce in an interview
30:22 after the season is, "What are you going to do about this offense?
30:27 I understand you're a defensive guy, you know, that's your pedigree, but how are you going
30:32 to get this offense performing even at a league average level to where it's a playoff caliber
30:40 offense?"
30:41 Now listen, like Bo Hargree, he gets valuable experience here.
30:46 It's sort of like an Aiden O'Connell, you know, it's a rookie guy getting a chance to
30:51 call plays and do things for the first time.
30:55 You know, think you give him to the end of the year and then you kind of evaluate from
30:59 there.
31:00 I will say this, like I agree with you.
31:03 I think if I'm Antonio Pierce, I'm thinking in the back of my mind, "What do I want to
31:08 do at OC next year if I'm the head coach?
31:10 Do I want to bring in a veteran named somebody that I've worked with, somebody that I know
31:15 who's done it before?
31:17 Do I want to turn it over to a guy like Scott Turner who has done it before at multiple
31:23 stops?"
31:24 Because I do think that this is something that the Raiders offense has to be better
31:28 in 2024.
31:29 It just, it does.
31:31 And that's assuming that Devonta Adams is back as we said we would think he would be,
31:36 but even if he's not back, as big of a loss as that is, they have to find a way to get
31:42 more production offensively.
31:43 All right, now I want to go, and again, this is still an interim basis.
31:49 I have not seen enough to say Bo can't be.
31:54 I just have seen enough now to say at this point he's not.
31:58 So he's got four games too to go into the bag of tricks and show us more.
32:04 I have not closed the door on any of them.
32:08 Some of them, Aiden and Bo, what I've seen tells me if they continue on this trajectory
32:16 the next four games I'm going in a different direction.
32:20 But now that brings us to AP.
32:24 Again with Bo and Aiden, I have not seen enough to rule them out as down the road as QB1 and
32:31 OC1, or OC1, just as an OC.
32:35 But I've not seen enough to say they're ready for those roles today.
32:39 Both have four games to change it.
32:44 Mark Davis doesn't care what you think, I think, the fans think, or anyone else thinks.
32:50 I have seen a lot from AP to make me think he is a head coach.
32:57 I have seen, I wouldn't give it to him right now.
33:02 I said earlier if he beats either the Chiefs either time or the Dolphins then you give
33:06 it to him.
33:07 He has not done that.
33:10 But I have seen a lot from him.
33:12 So for example, the benching of Marcus Peters, the uptick in physicality, this team is so
33:21 much more physical.
33:23 They're more prepared.
33:24 Penalties are down.
33:25 Turnovers are down.
33:27 Multiple things he has done has worked.
33:30 He gets the job after the trade deadline.
33:33 So there's not a lot of things that him and the general manager can go do to make the
33:39 team better.
33:41 But the way he leads, his style of leadership, a lot of people call him rah-rah, which okay,
33:47 you can, but rah-rah coaches aren't dumping Marcus Peters.
33:52 Rah-rah coaches aren't bringing the discipline to the team that he has brought.
33:56 So again, people can have any opinion they want.
34:00 It's not reality.
34:02 But I have not seen enough to say he's not capable of leading this team.
34:06 I'm still rooting for him.
34:11 I'm intrigued by AP.
34:12 Your thoughts?
34:13 So am I.
34:14 I think that, you know, I've talked about this with you a bunch of times on here.
34:19 I think that depending on how the season unfolds the rest of the way and if it continues to
34:24 where the team is playing hard and he's got that level of respect and he's got commanding
34:30 the room and has that way of banding guys together, like you said, and producing that
34:37 physicality and producing that cohesiveness.
34:42 I think long and hard about giving him the permanent job if I'm Mark Davis, unless I
34:47 have a guy in mind that I know is almost a can't-miss type candidate and is going to
34:54 take the job if offered and I can bring him in.
34:58 Other than that, you know, I think at the very least he deserves a long look at Antonio
35:03 Pierce because if they finish the year strong and they don't hire the interim head coach
35:09 again and they bring in an outsider who doesn't do the job again, then it's going to reflect
35:17 poorly on Mark Davis.
35:18 Like you said, this upcoming coaching hire, whoever he hires, is going to be a massive
35:24 one for his legacy as an owner and to shape the direction of the franchise.
35:31 I think, and again, you're more privy to the nitty-gritty details of what goes on with
35:35 Antonio Pierce and with the team, but I think from an outsider's perspective, I think that
35:40 the effort has been there.
35:42 I think they've played really hard.
35:43 The defense has continued to play well.
35:46 He'll get another opportunity on national TV this week, a home game.
35:51 Kansas City as well.
35:52 Kansas City as well.
35:53 So, yeah, so he's got a couple more opportunities on national television, including against
35:59 the defending Super Bowl champions to kind of show his stuff and show what his team's
36:03 capable of.
36:04 So, I think that he's got some chances down the stretch to really enhance his resume and
36:08 enhance his case for the full-time job.
36:10 Yeah, I agree with you.
36:12 Again, I'm rooting for him.
36:15 I'm rooting for him.
36:17 Let me say this.
36:18 I like him personally, but that's not why I'm rooting for him.
36:23 I like Aiden O'Connell personally a lot, but it's not that.
36:31 I look at some decisions he's made and think, "Wow, that was ballsy," or "Boy, that was
36:37 big," or "Well, you can see his adjunct and as a head coach, those are things you've got
36:43 to see."
36:44 So, if he can even get the offense to change a little.
36:50 He told me yesterday, talking about AP, that he wants them attacking.
37:03 He wants more from it.
37:04 He said he's been talking about it every week and going to continue to talk about it.
37:11 I am of the persuasion, and I'll talk more about it after the game, I don't want to say
37:16 too much, that even though it's a short week, there is a lot of Antonio Pierce influence
37:26 going on inside the building right now.
37:28 Again, I'm impressed with him, and I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do.
37:34 All right, now I want to go to the next subject, which is a rebuild.
37:41 Now there are a lot of reasons teams rebuild.
37:46 They go and decide, "Okay, we're going to go with a new coach.
37:50 We're going to go pick a rookie quarterback.
37:52 We're going to rebuild."
37:54 If that's your decision, then you have to look and say, "Okay, what players on our team
38:01 are young and we're going to go be looking for to draft in the draft?"
38:07 For example, Max Crosby, super young, he's untouchable.
38:13 I don't care what you offer him.
38:16 You would have to offer me something, the biggest trade in the history of the league,
38:20 because defensive ends are the second most valuable position behind quarterback.
38:25 He's super young, and he's elite, and still not at his best.
38:28 To me, you don't touch Max.
38:30 Devante's older.
38:33 If you're going to go rebuild, okay, I'll trade Devante for two ones to the Jets, or
38:42 Quinn Williams and a one.
38:44 I don't think they would get Soss Gardner.
38:46 A lot of people are like, "Give us Soss Gardner and a one."
38:50 That's not going to happen, because he's so young, but so is Q. I'm okay with that.
38:57 But then all of a sudden, you have to start looking and say, "Okay, is AJ Cole, who's
39:02 the best punter in the league, is he good enough that he can go through three years
39:08 of a rebuild?"
39:09 And, oh, by the way, it's going to be 26 before we expect to compete.
39:14 So three years down the road, do we expect him to still be performing at this level?
39:20 That's the next part of the rebuild, is going through your roster, asking, "Okay, is this
39:25 a player we trade?"
39:27 Because three years from now...
39:28 Because if you go through a rebuild, it's three years.
39:31 24 is a wash, 25 is a wash, and then you don't expect to be competitive until 26.
39:39 That's the reality of what a rebuild is.
39:42 And so then you've got to go through and ask yourself, "To me, just to me, special teams
39:48 are fantastic.
39:50 Your defense is very, very good, and you don't even have a lot of money invested in it."
39:55 It's in the 40 millions when you take Chandler Jones' contract out, which is ridiculous.
40:00 And you have an offense with a lot of guys you can win with now.
40:05 Jacoby, again, Colton, I think Dylan Parham, Josh Jacobs.
40:13 There is a lot of...
40:15 And again, I said Devontae, but there's a lot there.
40:19 I just don't see this as a rebuild.
40:23 I think there are too many really good players.
40:27 I think your salary cap, once you stop doing stupidity, is going to be fine.
40:33 And if you go get a rookie quarterback, your salary cap is going to be fine in 25.
40:42 Still going to be okay in 24, not good, but okay.
40:45 But in 25, you'll be fine.
40:50 If you just get a new coach and you're going to go get a new quarterback, you're a year
40:54 away with all those pieces.
40:58 That to me is the way to go.
41:00 But if it's a rebuild, then I think you have to go through and look at all your best players
41:03 and say, "Okay, three years from now, is this guy viable where he is today?
41:07 No.
41:08 Okay, then we'll trade him."
41:09 Your thoughts on what I think about a rebuild.
41:12 Yeah, I don't think the roster as currently constructed is so poor that it requires a
41:19 full teardown.
41:21 But the question now becomes, if you bring in outsiders or whoever you hire, how quickly
41:32 do they feel they can be a legitimate competitor or a legitimate contender?
41:38 If they think they could do it next year with the right moves, okay.
41:43 Or maybe they think they could do it in 2025.
41:45 Next year we have to be able to make a wildcard run.
41:47 2025 we could be an actual division and AFC contender.
41:54 Then obviously I think that guy would maybe be ideal with the way the roster is set up
41:58 right now.
41:59 But here's the question.
42:03 If somebody comes in, a GM candidate or a head coach candidate or both, and says to
42:07 Mark Davis, "Listen, I know you have a few players here, but this isn't where it needs
42:12 to be.
42:13 We've got to rebuild this.
42:14 We've got to blow this up.
42:15 Well, now you're asking a fan base and you're asking people to undergo a pretty big overhaul.
42:22 And like you said, there are some guys like Devontae Adams is not going to be a part of
42:29 that three year building process at this point in his career.
42:33 Max Crosby is good enough and young enough where he can be part of it.
42:38 But even that I think would take a toll on him where you're now asking him to basically
42:42 give up two years of his career playing for a team that's actively rebuilding.
42:48 Because there's a difference between playing for a team that is kind of in the middle of
42:54 the league or struggling, maybe a little below average, like this year's team has been, and
43:02 playing for a team that is actively rebuilding and playing for the future.
43:06 Because you know going into the season that you probably don't have a chance to make the
43:10 playoffs.
43:11 You might not be as hard as me, you might not pull off a few wins here and there, but
43:14 you know where your team stands.
43:16 So I mean, that's another question going into the offseason, again, is fundamental to the
43:23 shape and direction of the franchise and legacy of Mark Davis, how they want to go about building
43:29 this.
43:30 Do they think that they are a few moves away, put some finishing touches on it, or do they
43:33 think they really want to tear it down?
43:35 Yeah, I'm going to tell you, in talking to people around the league, not one person thinks
43:41 this is a rebuild.
43:43 They're all like, "No, you've got to win in today's modern NFL."
43:47 There are so many pieces there.
43:50 But I want to go back now to Mark Davis.
43:52 Clearly he can do whatever he wants, I'm not trying to in any way, I don't think he cares,
43:57 to influence him.
43:59 But I believe this is legacy defining.
44:02 If he says, "Okay, we need some help on the offensive line.
44:07 We need some help at a couple other key positions that we can add free agents."
44:12 People are forgetting, there are free agents that want to play for Antonio Pierce.
44:17 I'm not going to give any names right now, but there are some guys, some quality guys
44:21 that want to come here and play.
44:27 So you think you can add a couple of key pieces in free agency.
44:31 Let's go get a quarterback in the draft, maybe sign a veteran.
44:37 And we think we're close.
44:38 If he goes and does that, and gives AP the three-year proven deal, which we've talked
44:45 about before, you give them three years, and it's a $4 million a year deal, and tell them
44:53 you're going to get the full three years.
44:55 But if at any point in the three years, you get this team to the playoff, it automatically
45:00 extends five with a raise to 10 million, because you paid Josh McDaniels and John Gruden 10
45:06 million, and they didn't get you to the playoffs.
45:10 But if it doesn't work, then the decision to hire him is not as legacy defining as the
45:18 next one that will be.
45:21 If he lets AP go, I don't care if it's for a quick fix, "Hey, we're not going to rebuild,"
45:29 or he rebuilds.
45:30 Either way, this is going to be legacy defining.
45:34 If he goes and gets AP with a three-year proven deal, and it doesn't work, I don't think the
45:39 decision is defining.
45:42 Am I wrong or right?
45:43 No, I see where you're coming from, without a doubt.
45:46 I think that when you look at, that's the case, you say, "Hey, we gave it a shot, and
45:52 it didn't work out.
45:54 Maybe now, as we've built the last couple of years, we're in good shape for whoever
45:59 the next guy is coming in."
46:02 But I said this earlier in the show, I've said it on past episodes, if they bring in
46:09 an outside guy, and it doesn't work again, it's going to be legacy defining.
46:14 The fans will say, "Hey, we had two."
46:17 Listen, there's no guarantee that if they had hired Rich Visacci two years ago, it would
46:20 have worked out long term.
46:24 But that's a guy who had gotten them into the playoffs after Gruden got fired.
46:31 He had a lot of support among the players, among the fans, and the guy they brought in
46:37 failed.
46:38 So if they do that again, it's going to be same old Raiders, the fans will be saying.
46:47 Now I want to address the fan base.
46:51 I've told you since I got out here, these people are amazing.
46:55 This fan base, Matt, I've never ... I've been to Dallas when they were terrible, and there
47:03 wasn't good crowds, that fan base is huge, but very fickle.
47:10 This fan base, win, lose, or draw, they're there, they're smart, they know the game.
47:18 Even people who I disagree with, when you talk to them, they have sane, sensible arguments.
47:26 These people know the game of football.
47:28 There's nothing stupid.
47:31 They're like Nebraska in college football, Indiana in basketball, Laker fans in pro basketball,
47:39 Toronto Maple Leaf, Red Wing fans in hockey.
47:44 They're just those kind of fans, St. Louis Cardinals in baseball.
47:51 As an organization, you can't just keep selling just win when it's just rebuild.
47:59 Somebody sent me a meme yesterday, and I don't know if it was a meme or a picture, but it
48:04 basically was a sheet hanging off a bridge that says, "It's okay, Raider Nation, we've
48:08 been through a rebuild before.
48:11 We'll make it through again."
48:13 I wish I remembered who sent it to me, but I would give them credit, but it wasn't me.
48:19 They don't deserve that.
48:22 When you look at this roster, and you see it, and you analyze it and realize, "Wow,
48:29 there's a lot of really good parts.
48:31 They need some pieces.
48:32 They don't need a rebuild."
48:33 If you go away from that and bring somebody from the outside, there is a danger, a real
48:42 danger that you're going to at some point take these fans for granted, and I'm not saying
48:50 Davis has, and they're going to say, "Okay, enough's enough.
48:55 Enough's enough."
48:57 I was on a national show the other day that's going to air in a couple weeks, and it was
49:06 myself and another nationally renowned actress, a very successful actress who's been a longtime
49:14 Raider fan.
49:16 Grew up in the Bay Area.
49:20 The host asked the question, I'll tell you who it was in a minute.
49:23 You'll know who they are.
49:25 I just don't want to say it until the show airs.
49:29 The host talked about the difference, the move from Oakland.
49:36 I made the comment, "You can take the team out of Oakland.
49:38 You can't take Oakland out of the team."
49:40 At some point, Matt, I think there's a real danger.
49:44 I know people are going to say this is stupid or whatever, but I'm not a fan.
49:49 This fan base is so low that it can come to a point where they say, "Enough's enough."
49:57 The moment they do that, the magic of the Raiders is the fans.
50:01 I've shared this with you.
50:02 Matt Millen told me this when he was general manager of the Raiders.
50:06 Every NFL team's fans think they're part of the team, but only in Oakland, and they were
50:11 in Oakland at the time, obviously Las Vegas now, but only with the Raiders do the players
50:16 think they're part of the team, talking about the fans.
50:19 To me, there's anger in this fan base.
50:23 I've not seen it before like this anywhere I've ever been, whatever I've ever covered,
50:27 even with the Lions.
50:29 They embrace the lovable losers like the old Cubs fans did.
50:34 That is not this team.
50:35 Losing is not in their DNA.
50:36 It's not in their DNA.
50:39 You could do a blood test on every Raider fan, and they're all related because they
50:48 all have that "losing is not in my DNA" gene.
50:52 I think that Mark Davis has to be concerned about at what point now we've moved the team,
51:00 at what point does we begin to lose a big part of our fan base.
51:05 Do you think I'm overstating it?
51:08 I think the thing that helps the Raiders with that is the fact that it is still a bit of
51:12 a national fan base.
51:13 There's Raider fans everywhere, out here in New York, New Jersey, out in Vegas, and in
51:20 California.
51:21 They're all over, so that silver and black nation is strong.
51:24 But I do think, Hugh, you're starting to get, and I only see from the comments on Twitter
51:29 and the comments on Facebook and from a few Raider fans that I know personally out here,
51:35 you're starting to get almost that fatalism where you're just sort of resigned to the
51:43 fact that this team doesn't win.
51:45 This is now 20 years of rebuilds after rebuilds, and there really hasn't been anything fruitful
51:51 to show for it.
51:52 There's been a couple of winning seasons, a couple of playoff berths, but they haven't
51:56 had anything sustained.
51:57 And that's what fans are used to, especially ones that have been around a while and watched
52:02 this franchise.
52:03 They're used to that sustained success, that excellence that the team preaches.
52:12 I don't think the Raider fan base, the Raider brand will ever die or really be in dire straits,
52:18 but I do think you're in some danger of obviously losing some of that passion, at least until
52:25 you show some type of consistency, some type of vision for the future.
52:30 Because I think people are really resigned to the fact, when are we ever going to win
52:35 again?
52:36 When are we going to become the Raiders again?
52:38 Because it just hasn't happened for a long time.
52:42 And you see teams around the NFL, and listen, there's always losing franchises.
52:48 And like you say, there's franchises that historically do poorly than others.
52:54 But the Raiders were never one of those teams.
52:58 And you start to see some of those teams even outperform the Raiders.
53:03 You look at what the Lions seem to have, they're going to be a playoff team this year, and
53:08 they seem to have built some type of something solid, at least for a couple of years.
53:14 The Browns made the playoffs a couple of years ago, won a playoff game, they might get back
53:18 this year.
53:19 I'm not saying those franchises don't have their own issues, but the Bengals, they got
53:26 Joe Burrow, and they're playing for Super Bowls.
53:29 These are teams that have historically been down and have struggled.
53:35 The Bills, I'm just drawing different names, you see those teams that have made this come
53:39 up recently.
53:40 I think Raiders fans are justifiably wondering, when is that going to be us?
53:47 When your owner has had two coaches take you to the playoffs and he's fired them both.
53:52 I mean, he gets rid of Del Rio because he wants to bring Gruden in, he gets rid of Visace
53:58 because he wants to bring Josh McDaniels in.
54:02 Then all of a sudden, and again, I'm not saying the brand's going to die, but I'm going to
54:05 share this with you.
54:06 I think you'll find this funny.
54:07 Then I got one other topic and we'll let you go.
54:10 Since I started covering this team, I'm learning some new words.
54:13 Now as you know, I am who I am.
54:19 I don't try to be who I'm not.
54:20 There's a term out here that they use in Raider Nation called OG.
54:25 Stands for original gangster.
54:28 It's not referring to people as gangsters.
54:32 It's just, I wish I could explain it to you.
54:35 You'd almost have to be part of this to get it.
54:38 You know, as an OG, somebody who's an old school fan, who's been around since the beginning.
54:45 That's my concern.
54:47 I've shared this with you before.
54:48 I didn't understand it when I first started covering the team because every email I got
54:54 was "Hondo, I've been a fan since '76" or "Hondo, I became a fan Al Davis' first year
55:00 on this Ole."
55:01 At first, I thought, "Who cares?
55:04 Why are people telling me how long they've been a fan?"
55:07 But the more I cover it, I get it now.
55:10 I totally get it.
55:11 I expect, in fact, if I get an email from somebody that doesn't say, "I've been a fan
55:14 since," I just almost delete it because it's like, "Okay, this is somebody who's a new
55:17 fan."
55:18 Whatever.
55:21 When you embrace the suck, you have a shot at alienating some of your OGs.
55:32 And I'm going to tell you, Matt, though these people are precious.
55:37 On this national show, and I don't know how they're going to edit it, but I made a comment
55:44 and I also said this to Wayne Mabry, the Violator, who was on my show last week.
55:49 If my son, who's 16 months old, Dexter, let's say he's five years old and he says, "Dad,
55:56 I want to go to a game, but I'm up in the press box, so I can't take him," I would
56:00 let that kid go sit in the black hole because, yeah, they have all the costumes and they
56:05 look mean, they are some of the most wonderful people.
56:10 I have not had one dealing with anyone that's a black hole member.
56:16 Shout out to the black hole, shout out to Cisco Ortega, who I haven't thought, "Man,
56:22 I don't want them around my family."
56:24 Just precious people.
56:25 And I feel for them.
56:27 This is why to me it's legacy defining.
56:29 You've had two coaches take you to the playoffs, you've fired them both.
56:32 If you go with AP, it isn't as legacy defining if it doesn't work.
56:36 And it's just fascinating to me.
56:38 All right, last question that I have for you, and I think it's a big one.
56:45 I think it's an important one.
56:47 Tyree Kill goes out of the game.
56:51 His wife texts him and says, "Dog, you better get back in there."
56:55 Now, not because she's a money chaser, but because she knows him.
57:01 She knew, "Okay, it's just an ankle, get back in there."
57:04 How cool was that to see?
57:07 Listen, I know I'm talking to Raider Nation, who doesn't like Tyree because he was a chief,
57:12 but I still thought it was pretty cool.
57:14 Your thoughts?
57:15 No, it wasn't.
57:16 You're talking about a guy who obviously his team still has a lot to play for, he still
57:20 has a lot to play for.
57:22 But it would have been easy for him to, it was a nasty looking ankle injury to kind of
57:27 take the rest of the night off and reassess and reevaluate.
57:31 But he came back in, I think he knew that speaks to the type of competitor that he is.
57:35 And I think that that was fun to watch.
57:39 Obviously the game, shockingly, didn't work out well for the Dolphins the way it ended.
57:44 But I think it was good to see Tyree get back out there and that the injury wasn't something
57:49 that kept him sideline long.
57:50 Well, Matt, I think this was a great podcast.
57:53 I think Raider Nation is going to love it because we really go through a lot and dissect
57:58 it.
57:59 Thank you so much for being with us.
58:00 To all of you guys from Matt and I, Merry Christmas.
58:03 Remember this is Matt Holadek from thespun.com.
58:06 I'm Hondo Carpenter from Sports Illustrated's Fan Nation, Las Vegas Raiders Insider Podcast,
58:11 part of the Fans First Sports Network.
58:12 And by the way, everybody, if you don't want the video, because I wouldn't want to look
58:17 at me and Matt, but if you want to just listen to the audio, you can go to Spotify, you can
58:22 go to Apple or wherever else you get your podcasts.
58:25 Additionally, every day I do a podcast that's just audio only.
58:32 It's usually five to 10 minutes.
58:33 It's called Riding with Hondo.
58:35 Usually I do it with me and my son, Dexter, in the truck.
58:38 But that's also there.
58:40 So you get two of those a day, which is a lot more content.
58:44 Again, that's at Spotify or Apple where you can get those.
58:48 And again, we appreciate all of you.
58:50 So Matt, Merry Christmas, my friend.
58:52 Enjoy the Big Apple.
58:53 We'll see you back here next week.
58:54 Looking forward to going to KC on Christmas Day.
58:56 Thanks for joining us.
58:57 And by the way, hold on.
58:58 I want to share something with you real quick.
58:59 All right.
59:00 Thanks, everybody.
59:01 Have a great day.
59:02 Appreciate you.